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TBH I do not need complete backstories for every NPC the PCs meet. Having 2 letters that gave a quick overview of their likely behaviour was pretty useful then.Even as a GM, if you just run creatures based off of two letters in their stat block then those creatures might as well be nothing more then a stat block the PCs are fighting. Real creatures have lives, motivations and moods based not just on what they are but where they are, what their day has been like and how they encounter the PCs.
Other than animals/unintelligent things and planer creatures I could easily make situations for most creatures that make them feel like any of the old alignments.
If you want to make interesting encounters then just find art that jumps out at you and make a reason why such a creature would be antagonistic or not to the PCs. Otherwise just use low intelligence creatures that are defending their territory, nice and simple.
Half those alignments never made sense in the first place and caused more confusion than they clarified. As an example, could someone please tell me what makes wraiths lawful evil? Do they obey ordinances posted by city officials? No. Are they driven by inexplicable yet methodical urges? No. Do they manipulate the legal system to serve their own twisted ends? No. They're spectral terrors of unlife that sap the vitality of the living, "law" doesn't really enter into it at all.
And that's before we get into the icky implications of "metallic dragons are all born as good-hearted pure souls that only rarely are led astray into corruption and degradation." Now, I'll give Paizo a lot of credit - because with Promise and Mengkare they explored a lot of those more...unsettling themes metallic dragons had quite admirably.
But really, for things that aren't celestials or fiends, I don't see a compelling reason to make them "always" have a moral predilection at all. And for celestials and fiends (and undead, I guess - sorry Edward...
I was talking about NPCs and monsters in a scenario. Not about Bestiary entries, though that still provided some value. Sorry for the confusion.
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Yeah, part of what made Aroden's death a big deal is that he has a specific prophecy that he'd manifest in Cheliax and usher in an age of glory. It was his death on the cusp of a big, widely known and consequential prophecy that caused problems.
I believe his death was a sign (maybe even a test) that prophecy was indeed broken, rather than its cause.
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Quite true. Of course. The last time a god died there were...consequences. Rather big ones.
The fact that a universe with janni has spontaneous deicide every fifteen minutes or so is extremely funny (janni aren't even uncommon or rare! Think how many wizards had this bright idea!), but presumably not the intent.
The last time you know of.
Let's be real here. Those consequences weren't as a result of "a God died". It was "that God died, and he was a really big deal, and it also utterly shattered prophecy as a thing." I mean, someone who's cranked their way up to divinity by dominating a Jann wouldn't have any followers to start out with. By comparison....
Maybe the jann can make you a deity of no consequence. Or a mere part of a greater deity. Or you become the new god of magic only to have your personality change into that of Nethys.
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If nothing else, Recall Knowledge will still let you know if the big fiery thing is a neutral fire elemental that wants to burninate you because FIRE or an unholy balor who wants to burninate you because it'd be funny....or a Wheel Archon who wants to burninate you because You Have Sinned And Must Be Punished. There's all sorts of possibilities, really.
It's important info, too, because of the aforementioned diplomacy thing. In this case, diplomacy might work with the fire elemental, and is a distinct possibility with the unholy balor.
Honestly, the change with alignment is really great for the Wheel Archon. It's always felt to me that whilst it was good, you could rea;;y argue it should be LN. Now that alignment's sanctification, the idea of "celestial which is sanctified to holy, but will utterly destroy any sinners it sees without a second thought" has a bit more room.
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With the Remaster doing away with alignment, has anyone else read through the creatures in Rage of Elements or the Remaster Preview documentation and thought "Everything is dangerous, everything is deadly, and everything could be an enemy" or have something similar cross your mind?
No? Just me? Sure. Sure. ;)
It seems so strange not having any guidance whatsoever. There's no telling if that angel atop the hill is truly a benevolent being from on high, or a fallen angel turned fiend waiting for you to approach to rip out your soul. Or if the dragon that moved into yonder cave is planning on robbing your kingdom, razing it to the ground, or elevating it into prosperity.
Nothing can be taken for granted anymore. If you want to survive in this strange new world, you best keep your head on a swivel and always, always have a plan.
I'm curious to read your own thoughts on the subject and how you expect the absence of alignment (on creatures and NPCs specifically) will impact your perceptions (in-game and out) and your games.
My group has a solution for this problem.
Nobody takes the Diplomacy skill.
So they can all be good, they can try to be nice, but every encounter ends in a tragic misunderstanding and violence.
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Maybe the jann can make you a deity of no consequence. Or a mere part of a greater deity. Or you become the new god of magic only to have your personality change into that of Nethys.Quite true. Of course. The last time a god died there were...consequences. Rather big ones.
The fact that a universe with janni has spontaneous deicide every fifteen minutes or so is extremely funny (janni aren't even uncommon or rare! Think how many wizards had this bright idea!), but presumably not the intent.
The last time you know of.
Let's be real here. Those consequences weren't as a result of "a God died". It was "that God died, and he was a really big deal, and it also utterly shattered prophecy as a thing." I mean, someone who's cranked their way up to divinity by dominating a Jann wouldn't have any followers to start out with. By comparison....
Or consider that the wish from the Jann could simply start the character on a path to godhood and they would have to earn full godhood. Godhood is bigger than a wish.
I just posted in the Homebrew subforum the Godhood Archetype that the leshy sorceress Honey used in my story in comment #28. The wish would grant the character the Godhood Dedication feat, They would have to take more feats, including the 20th-level capstone, to become a real god. And hostile gods could be trying to kill the character before they become immortal, like Hadregash tried to kill Honey.
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Let's step back a little here.
Wish, even Jann's Wish, isn't going to be able to grant deification. It's mortal magic, it's simply not powerful enough.
Let's step back a little here.
Wish, even Jann's Wish, isn't going to be able to grant deification. It's mortal magic, it's simply not powerful enough.
Granting apotheosis is explicitly something Wish can do; it's one of the examples.
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Janns usually grant it with the idea of encouraging growth and exploration. They are incredibly unlikely to just give you godhood and it would be very in character for one to give you the tools needed to ascend instead.
Yeah. Genie wishes are crit successes for what the genie wants to give you, rather than what you ask for.
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I was referring to dominating the jann (it's level 4 with no appreciable defense) and now whatever you want, it wants too.
But if you have players that are going to abuse it, as the GM just say no.
Yeah, there is a reason that Dominate is an Uncommon spell.
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Granting apotheosis is explicitly something Wish can do; it's one of the examples.Let's step back a little here.
Wish, even Jann's Wish, isn't going to be able to grant deification. It's mortal magic, it's simply not powerful enough.
Where is that stated?
When I look in the bestiary under Janni I see this:
Genie nobles with titles unique to their kind (as detailed in each sidebar) rule genie society. Genie nobles are generally at least 5 levels higher than a typical example of their kind. In addition to the increased statistics afforded by their higher levels, genie nobles gain additional spells. But the most wondrous (and notorious) of a genie noble’s powers is their ability to grant wishes. Any genie noble (save for jann, who lack this power) can grant a mortal or undead creature up to three wishes within a year’s time. Many unscrupulous creatures compel genie nobles to serve them, tricking them or entrapping them with magic. However, once a genie noble grants a third wish to a single creature, they are freed from service to that creature forever.
When I look at Wish I see this:
You state a wish, making your greatest desire come true. A wish spell can produce any one of the following effects.
Duplicate any spell from the arcane list of 9th level or lower to which you have access.
Duplicate any spell from another spell list of 7th level or lower. It must be common or you must have access.
Produce any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.
Reverse certain effects that refer to the wish spell.
The GM might allow you to try using wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so might be dangerous or the spell might have only a partial effect.
Maybe there's another description that I'm not seeing because I'm using AoN and it's not laid out/referenced the same way but I don't see that call out.
And even if it is called out, honestly I would consider it to be "f+!~ing stupid" and say no it doesn't do that in my game world.
Further, if we go by that bestiary entry, the folks who can do this aren't going to be level 4. At minimum, it's gong to require level 9 Janni nobles. Also, those guys are explicitly nobles, which means that if you ambush and dominate one of them, you'll likely have at least a few people who care about that.
Alternately, if there are new, enhanced janni out there with buffed wishing powers... where are those written up?
Granting apotheosis is explicitly something Wish can do; it's one of the examples.Let's step back a little here.
Wish, even Jann's Wish, isn't going to be able to grant deification. It's mortal magic, it's simply not powerful enough.
Where is that stated?
When I look in the bestiary under Janni I see this:
Genie nobles with titles unique to their kind (as detailed in each sidebar) rule genie society. Genie nobles are generally at least 5 levels higher than a typical example of their kind. In addition to the increased statistics afforded by their higher levels, genie nobles gain additional spells. But the most wondrous (and notorious) of a genie noble’s powers is their ability to grant wishes. Any genie noble (save for jann, who lack this power) can grant a mortal or undead creature up to three wishes within a year’s time. Many unscrupulous creatures compel genie nobles to serve them, tricking them or entrapping them with magic. However, once a genie noble grants a third wish to a single creature, they are freed from service to that creature forever.When I look at Wish I see this:
You state a wish, making your greatest desire come true. A wish spell can produce any one of the following effects.
Duplicate any spell from the arcane list of 9th level or lower to which you have access.
Duplicate any spell from another spell list of 7th level or lower. It must be common or you must have access.
Produce any effect whose power level is in line with the above effects.
Reverse certain effects that refer to the wish spell.
The GM might allow you to try using wish to produce greater effects than these, but doing so might be dangerous or the spell might have only a partial effect.Maybe there's another description that I'm not seeing because I'm using AoN and it's not laid out/referenced the same way but I don't see that call out.
And even if it is called out, honestly I would consider it to be "f%*$ing stupid"...
FFS, this is some Rip Van Winkle stuff. This entire discussion is about wish and the level 4 Jann in the preview remaster document released this week to work with RoE. Why not tell us what DND 3.5 has to say on the matter?
Where is that stated?Granting apotheosis is explicitly something Wish can do; it's one of the examples.Let's step back a little here.
Wish, even Jann's Wish, isn't going to be able to grant deification. It's mortal magic, it's simply not powerful enough.
This is coming from the Remaster Preview. New definitions for Wish (Page 11. it is now a ritual) and Jann (page 14-15).
FFS, this is some Rip Van Winkle stuff. This entire discussion is about wish and the level 4 Jann in the preview remaster document released this week to work with RoE. Why not tell us what DND 3.5 has to say on the matter?
How should I know they're changing that? I didn't even know where to get the remaster preview document. And it's a preview.
Hopefully the writers aren't stupid and figure out that they need to limit the version Jann have or need to remove that bit from Wish.
Honestly, IMO it needs to be removed from Wish. No mortal magic, not even a ritual, should grant deification in some published way. You could have a special ritual as part of a campaign do that kind of stuff, but there's shouldn't be any "normally" published way for mortal creatures to get access to that level of power.
Otherwise, if you can make deities it can probably kill deities and the whole pantheon would be entirely destroyed. It just literally makes no sense in my opinion.
Honestly, IMO it needs to be removed from Wish. No mortal magic, not even a ritual, should grant deification in some published way. You could have a special ritual as part of a campaign do that kind of stuff, but there's shouldn't be any "normally" published way for mortal creatures to get access to that level of power.
Otherwise, if you can make deities it can probably kill deities and the whole pantheon would be entirely destroyed. It just literally makes no sense in my opinion.
Wish itself is both Rare and level rank 10. So yes, it would be campaign ending to allow this. But you are at the end of the campaign already.
The problem is with the Jann being able to auto-crit-success the ritual as a level 4 creature.
FFS, this is some Rip Van Winkle stuff. This entire discussion is about wish and the level 4 Jann in the preview remaster document released this week to work with RoE. Why not tell us what DND 3.5 has to say on the matter?How should I know they're changing that? I didn't even know where to get the remaster preview document. And it's a preview.
Hopefully the writers aren't stupid and figure out that they need to limit the version Jann have or need to remove that bit from Wish.
Honestly, IMO it needs to be removed from Wish. No mortal magic, not even a ritual, should grant deification in some published way. You could have a special ritual as part of a campaign do that kind of stuff, but there's shouldn't be any "normally" published way for mortal creatures to get access to that level of power.
Otherwise, if you can make deities it can probably kill deities and the whole pantheon would be entirely destroyed. It just literally makes no sense in my opinion.
Basic competence in reading this thread and keeping up with the subject of 89% of forum posts this week would have told you that.
It’s a preview of rules that will be published as is in October and that are necessary to use Rage of Elements (coming next week). Nothing is going to change.
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Jann being able to grant a crit success on a 10th level ritual as CL4 is pretty wild. The fact that it can be dominated is also a sadge because it means an 11th level occult/arcane caster can guarantee ascension.
I now have this headcanon that because of the fact that Janns are prime targets for creating new deities, Achaekek has a standing order for all his followers to kill Jann on sight.
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Basic competence in reading this thread and keeping up with the subject of 89% of forum posts this week would have told you that.
Yes, I missed the initial post where this change was being called out. You could do with being less of an a@&#~!* about it though.
Normally I like you Xenocrat and agree with a lot of things you say, but sometimes you're incredibly unpersonable.
It’s a preview of rules that will be published as is in October and that are necessary to use Rage of Elements (coming next week). Nothing is going to change.
Oh, so errata never happen?
Alternately, it's possible that they'll be nerfing Dominate?
Still, yes. It's true. The janni as written here are weirdly excessive.
Basic competence in reading this thread and keeping up with the subject of 89% of forum posts this week would have told you that.Yes, I missed the initial post where this change was being called out. You could do with being less of an a%~!!*@ about it though.
Normally I like you Xenocrat and agree with a lot of things you say, but sometimes you're incredibly unpersonable.
Oh, so errata never happen?
It’s a preview of rules that will be published as is in October and that are necessary to use Rage of Elements (coming next week). Nothing is going to change.
I apologize.
I don’t think errata are necessary here. Jann can handle themselves via mutual assistance pacts with mortals who use their wishes in their behalf, and can avoid hanging out with society if they’re worried. Maybe a high level inevitable follows them around to crush would be wish thieves. I’m any case they’re a GM narrative tool he can choose not to use.
Alternately, it's possible that they'll be nerfing Dominate?
Still, yes. It's true. The janni as written here are weirdly excessive.
Even if dominate was changed, it's still a huge problem to allow Wish to create deities.
Because why wouldn't a Jann make a deal with a mortal "I'll grant you three wishes, if one of them is to make me a god".
Like even if the mortal reneges or whatever, not every Jann would need to be forcible controlled into granting things that simply shouldn't happen.
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I apologize.
I don’t think errata are necessary here. Jann can handle themselves via mutual assistance pacts with mortals who use their wishes in their behalf, and can avoid hanging out with society if they’re worried. Maybe a high level inevitable follows them around to crush would be wish thieves. I’m any case they’re a GM narrative tool he can choose not to use.
I uh...was not expecting that. So thank you.
However I do think errata is necessary here. Mostly to wish.
It simply shouldn't have the power to make gods. End of discussion in my opinion. There should be no published means of achieving godhood. Except perhaps in the context of an AP that requires specific things that cannot be replicated, with explicit statements to that effect. Like "this ritual requires the aligning of the planets, the heart of a dead god, and the willing donation of some deific essence from several semi-deity or greater level entities".
There should be no published means of achieving godhood. Except perhaps in the context of an AP that requires specific things that cannot be replicated, with explicit statements to that effect. Like "this ritual requires the aligning of the planets, the heart of a dead god, and the willing donation of some deific essence from several semi-deity or greater level entities".
Isn't that what the Rare tag summarizes?
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I think by making it rare and 10th level it’s really just a GM narrative tool and godhood is just there as an example of what a GM might like to do with it for a villain or campaign ending PC story.
For the Jann, I always regard bestiary stat blocks as PC facing combat stuff that isn’t the last word in anything. Treerazer probably can use some minor utility magics not in his stat block. Jann probably have some limitations or protections on their wish granting that have kept them from becoming eternal god crafters. If the GM needs to worry about that stuff he can, but it’s not something the PCs can make him worry about or even justify.
It is very easy to be the god of a very small thing. But what does that really even mean in game. It is a narrative power that is GM dependent.
I do think that the Jann needs to have a rarity tag though. Right now it doesn't so it'd be perceived as a creature that should be "common" to encounter.
The fact that a level 4 non-rare monster can bestow a 10th rank Rare Ritual effect is slightly off-putting, and I could see a PC making an argument that even if a GM wants to keep Wish out of the PCs hands, Common Jann means that PCs should be able to access it.
Its mostly semantics at the end of the day, but still a very odd little circumstance to be sure.
There should be no published means of achieving godhood. Except perhaps in the context of an AP that requires specific things that cannot be replicated, with explicit statements to that effect. Like "this ritual requires the aligning of the planets, the heart of a dead god, and the willing donation of some deific essence from several semi-deity or greater level entities".Isn't that what the Rare tag summarizes?
Personally no, because it's not been used consistently in that manner and many players feel they should have access to it. I truly prefer something of this caliber to not be published unless it's clearly a unique thing specific to a story.
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Isn't that what the Rare tag summarizes?Personally no, because it's not been used consistently in that manner and many players feel they should have access to it.
*shrugs*
Can't fix entitled and disruptive players with more rules. Especially after the rules designed to rein in that type of problem are being trampled all over.
I uh...was not expecting that. So thank you.
However I do think errata is necessary here. Mostly to wish.
It simply shouldn't have the power to make gods. End of discussion in my opinion. There should be no published means of achieving godhood. Except perhaps in the context of an AP that requires specific things that cannot be replicated, with explicit statements to that effect. Like "this ritual requires the aligning of the planets, the heart of a dead god, and the willing donation of some deific essence from several semi-deity or greater level entities".
So you dislike the Test of the Starstone?
Because if that doesn't qualify as "published means of achieving godhood" then I don't know what does.
Indeed, my primary objection to the wish ritual is that I feel like it debases/devalues the Test to a degree.
The wish ritual explicitly has text of gods will mess with you if it's too big and genies have the text of three wishes and your control over the genie is broken forever, if the DM doesn't want whatever things are going out of control then there are written things they can do about it (of course the other side of this is none of this should be a problem because the game's supposed to be a collaborative experience between DM and players and things like this should be discussed out of game)
Are they any mechanical rules for what deification means? There are a lot of pebbles on the beach which can have their own gods to rule over them. There is no special powers you inherently get, there is no real definition of what it means to have obtained godhood in PF2 because it is a purely narrative mechanic.
Make me a god!
*hands the character an ant farm.*
Are they any mechanical rules for what deification means? There are a lot of pebbles on the beach which can have their own gods to rule over them. There is no special powers you inherently get, there is no real definition of what it means to have obtained godhood in PF2 because it is a purely narrative mechanic.
Make me a god!
*hands the character an ant farm.*
That would fall under the Success/Crit Fail versions of the Wish Ritual probably. The whole point of Crit Success is to give the target exactly what they want unfortunately.
Are they any mechanical rules for what deification means? There are a lot of pebbles on the beach which can have their own gods to rule over them. There is no special powers you inherently get, there is no real definition of what it means to have obtained godhood in PF2 because it is a purely narrative mechanic.
Make me a god!
*hands the character an ant farm.*
I mean. "Give me Sarenrae's powerset with no consequences or responsibilities" also works. There are actual gods, and "gimme that" is reasonable enough phrasing.
And there are other uses: "blow up this city" is also not defined, but at that point you start going down rabbit holes of "why does wish even exist if it can't do anything you intuitively think it can do on paper."
You shouldn't be bringing wish into a setting if you're just going to nerf it death like that. It's perfectly fine to say that there's no set meaning for divinity, but handing a character an ant farm or teleporting them outside the starstone cathedral is clearly not the point of the Rare Ritual 10, and it's really disingenuous to argue that it is.
I would argue that the ant farm/teleporting to starstone would be viable outcomes for at least the Crit Fail for Wish. I'd argue the starstone teleport would even fall under the "success" category.
I uh...was not expecting that. So thank you.
However I do think errata is necessary here. Mostly to wish.
It simply shouldn't have the power to make gods. End of discussion in my opinion. There should be no published means of achieving godhood. Except perhaps in the context of an AP that requires specific things that cannot be replicated, with explicit statements to that effect. Like "this ritual requires the aligning of the planets, the heart of a dead god, and the willing donation of some deific essence from several semi-deity or greater level entities".
So you dislike the Test of the Starstone?
Because if that doesn't qualify as "published means of achieving godhood" then I don't know what does.
Indeed, my primary objection to the wish ritual is that I feel like it debases/devalues the Test to a degree.
I guess I should be more clear, but I wouldn't count the Test of the Starstone. We don't know what the Test of the Star Stone entails beyond the first test of crossing the chasm in a way no one else has ever done. It's not something a player could point to and be like "Hey, I can do this by doing X, Y, and Z." With the proposed rules on Wish/Jann a player could reasonably say I find a way to get Wish or find an amenable Jann and achieve godhood. There's a big difference between these two, at least to me.
Isn't that what the Rare tag summarizes?Personally no, because it's not been used consistently in that manner and many players feel they should have access to it.*shrugs*
Can't fix entitled and disruptive players with more rules. Especially after the rules designed to rein in that type of problem are being trampled all over.
True to an extent, but you can also provide them less ammunition to use.
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I would argue that the ant farm/teleporting to starstone would be viable outcomes for at least the Crit Fail for Wish. I'd argue the starstone teleport would even fall under the "success" category.
Yeah, that's pretty fair. But not critical success. That's just blatantly fudging things because you, as the GM, want to twist the wish despite the mechanics explicitly telling you not to.
I do think the solution is probably to just not introduce a jann if you want to twist wishes. There are other genies you can introduce if you want to have more control as a GM though! For instance, the ifrit shuyookh from Rage of Elements only grants successes, and deliberately twists the wish to "maximize suffering". Even if you dominate one (and they're creature 14, so it's a lot harder) you're only getting a success out of it.
No... Jann absolutely twist wishes... as ways of giving challenge, because they have the control, and they use it in accordance with their own desires. The real abuse potential is in the combination of "Wish really can do anything", "Jann can crit-succeed Wish" and "it is possible to utterly overwhelm the will of a Jann and make it want what you want" taken together.