I really like the "tight math" (TM) of Pathfinder 2E. My party just hit seventh level and it is nice to see how Attack Bonus and Armor Class track each other. However, damage doesn't seem to track with hit points for my party (the monsters appear to be doing better).
My nephew is my DM and I run four characters. They are a fun foursome of goblins wreaking havoc in Outlaws of Alkenstar, but combat against a moderate or severe encounter can feel like Andy Dufresne carving a hole in the prison wall with his rock hammer. Maybe it is the class arrangement, maybe it is my choices or maybe it is working as designed.
Asimov the Inventor does Weapon Die + Strength (+ Intelligence if overdrive), which hasn't really changed since level 1. I can buy him a striking weapon when we get back to town, but that is still a small boost.
Dumas the Gunslinger is very swingy. If he crits, it is 2d10 + d10 + 1. Other hits are 1d6 + 1. He crits a little more often now, thanks to learned party synergy and powers, but not much more often.
Wells the Alchemist is very versatile, but unless he is attacking a weakness the damage is few d6. Being strategic about persistent damage is the only way to start it adding up.
Shakespeare the Bard primarily does buff and debuff. I could switch some spells to attack but that feels like a trap. Three times a day, he could do third level spell damage but at the cost of battlefield control.
The last BBEG was a ********* with resistance to all physical damage unless ******** with a time limit on the battle. Fortunately, my nephew is a great DM and he supported my creative idea to eliminate the resistance and Dumas rolled four critical hits in seven shots. I don't want to think about what was about to happen otherwise, since we needed a lot of damage in a hurry.
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So ... level 7. And no one has Striking runes yet?
For martial classes - those that use weapons - the fundamental weapon runes are one of the primary damage increasing mechanics. There are some classes that get other boosts too. Barbarian gets rage damage that goes up at intervals. Rogue has sneak attack. Things like that. But all of them are going to want to get fundamental runes on schedule.
That schedule being what is listed in Automatic Bonus Progression. Even if you aren't using that variant rule, it is good to compare your equipment to what it lists to see if you are on track or not.
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Also, at level 7 you are supposed to hit Weapon Specialization for 2 or 3 extra points of damage.
And lacking Striking Runes is definitely an issue.
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Things that make your damage go up:
- Higher ability scores at levels 5, 10, 15, 20
- Weapon Specialization, martials get it first at level 7
- Striking runes. They're called fundamental runes for a reason.
- Hitting more often (feats that give you efficient actions)
- Critting more often (various classes have ways to improve their to-hit and debuff enemies).
- Elemental runes on weapons (starts at level 8)
- Using higher level spells (or for alchemist: higher level formulas)
It looks like the big one you're missing is the striking runes
Thank you, all! I will propose a retroactive purchase of striking runes to my nephew.
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Automatic Bonus Progression also works if you don't want the shopping.
Can confirm. We've been liking Automatic Bonus Progression in our Edgewatch game.
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I'll mention this also - since you noted that you have an alchemist in the party.
If you do switch over to using Automatic Bonus Progression, I find it useful and fair to convert the Item bonuses of consumables, spells, or other similar temporary consumable things to the Potency bonus that ABP uses. So it won't stack with an existing Potency bonus that you are already getting, but it can replace it if the consumable is higher.
This comes up when looking at higher level bombs and some mutagens. Drakeheart mutagen for example. Also some spells like Mage Armor at low levels.
But only for consumables and similar temporary effects that have a high resource cost. That isn't needed for magic items with permanent magical effects. Those are already accounted for and replaced with the ABP Potency bonuses.
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Automatic Bonus Progression is a variant rule that swaps out the assumed linear increase of magic items for bonuses inherent to the character as they level.
I, and a lot of other folks, am quite fond of it.
Thank you for further discussion. When I heard about ABP, I figured I would use it when/if I GM. For this campaign, I'll try to see it out with the Core rules.
Automatic Bonus Progression is a variant rule that swaps out the assumed linear increase of magic items for bonuses inherent to the character as they level.
I, and a lot of other folks, am quite fond of it.
You know, I used to like it (In D&D 4th edition), but there's something fun about finding your upgrades as treasure. The GM just has to be consistent in it.
I feel Automatic progression kind of stifles player agency a bit, as the player didn't choose to buy it, he just got it. It means the bonusses become background noise instead of a dopamine hit. Like the big plume of light that shoots up in video games at lvl up, and suddenly you're more powerful.
"Yay, I leveled up and got an additional +1 to attack" feels mundane.
Finding the goblin king's +1 flaming longsword is a more memorable moment.
It also makes gold hold more value. It's a carrot to dangle in front of PC's noses.I have PC's that love to theorycraft and maximize, so this is the stuff that adds to their enjoyment.
I mean it's easier, but no one ever said GM'ing was supposed to be easy.
Your opinion is fairly popular, which is why ABP was made an optional rule. I agree that something is missing when using ABP, but it definitely has its uses. For example, I'd prefer to use ABP in a sandbox where the players might wander themselves into a remote region with no access to magic items for long periods of time. But for a classic dungeon delve where loot is a motivating factor I prefer the standard rules.
The two biggest methods by which martial (weapon users) increase their damage is by:
1) Striking runes (these increase the number of weapon damage dice you have)
2) Class features that increase damage. Most martial classes have some sort of innate damage scaling, though not too much.
Obviously increasing strength (and rarely dex for Rogues) will increase damage but that just doesn't happen frequently (ability increases happen every 5 levels and even then once you're at 18 it increases by 1 instead of 2 and the modifier only increase at even numbers).
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You know, I used to like it (In D&D 4th edition), but there's something fun about finding your upgrades as treasure. The GM just has to be consistent in it.
I feel Automatic progression kind of stifles player agency a bit, as the player didn't choose to buy it, he just got it. It means the bonusses become background noise instead of a dopamine hit. Like the big plume of light that shoots up in video games at lvl up, and suddenly you're more powerful.
"Yay, I leveled up and got an additional +1 to attack" feels mundane.
Finding the goblin king's +1 flaming longsword is a more memorable moment.
It also makes gold hold more value. It's a carrot to dangle in front of PC's noses.I have PC's that love to theorycraft and maximize, so this is the stuff that adds to their enjoyment.
I mean it's easier, but no one ever said GM'ing was supposed to be easy.
The issue with at least Fundamental Runes is that players expect them (and they are very much expected by the math). So the +1 Flaming Longsword is no more a memorable moment but an expected math fix. Beginners will fall for the memorable moment, experienced players will just take it for granted (leading to other problems).
I prefer to give items that are not math fixes, so the memorable moment is genuine for both beginners and experienced players.
You know, I used to like it (In D&D 4th edition), but there's something fun about finding your upgrades as treasure. The GM just has to be consistent in it.
I feel Automatic progression kind of stifles player agency a bit, as the player didn't choose to buy it, he just got it. It means the bonusses become background noise instead of a dopamine hit. Like the big plume of light that shoots up in video games at lvl up, and suddenly you're more powerful.
"Yay, I leveled up and got an additional +1 to attack" feels mundane.
Finding the goblin king's +1 flaming longsword is a more memorable moment.
It also makes gold hold more value. It's a carrot to dangle in front of PC's noses.I have PC's that love to theorycraft and maximize, so this is the stuff that adds to their enjoyment.
I mean it's easier, but no one ever said GM'ing was supposed to be easy.
The issue with at least Fundamental Runes is that players expect them (and they are very much expected by the math). So the +1 Flaming Longsword is no more a memorable moment but an expected math fix. Beginners will fall for the memorable moment, experienced players will just take it for granted (leading to other problems).
I prefer to give items that are not math fixes, so the memorable moment is genuine for both beginners and experienced players.
This, combined with a preference that much of my characters power I prefer to be innate to the character and not my weapon is why I narratively prefer ABP.
It sucks that I am reliant on special weapons to keep my damage up. Now matter how great a fighter I might be, my damage is limited unless I use special magical weapons. To me, that makes me feel not awesome, but rather that magic items are awesome/necessary.
Give me magic items that do interesting things (like a level-appropriate damage wise) fireball effect once per day from my weapon is a cool magic weapon. But just a flat d6 of fire damage or the absolutely require bonuses to hit and additional weapon damage dice and simply required math fixers to make sure players progress at the rate monsters do.
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I feel Automatic progression kind of stifles player agency a bit, as the player didn't choose to buy it, he just got it.
I mean, isn't agency being stifled by mandatory math bonuses in the first place? At the very least under ABP when I choose to buy something it's because I actually want to buy it, not because the game has dictated that I will be useless if I don't.
Yeah, if the +1 or striking runes weren't expected in the monster design, then Freakytapir might have a point. But the game literally expects you to pick up all the things ABP gives you to stay relevant at those kinds of checks.
It's not really a choice.
Attack potency is relevant for anyone that uses a weapon.
Skill potency is relevant for anyone who cares about being able to use any skills (which should be everyone).
About the only thing ABP gives that some might say you could go without is the perception bonus....but like everyone should invest in making their perception better.
That's not really true for skills and Perception.
Perception means initiative for most characters and on top of it the main Perception items (Goggles of Nightvision) come with Darkvision which is super handy if you don't have it by default. So it's rather expected to grab and increase them.
On the other hand, skill bonuses are both super expensive and extremely costly in terms of investment. There's no way you can get the bonuses from the APB without it as it's too expensive and at the same time there's no point in getting that many skill bonuses. Most characters will focus on a single or couple of skills and in general with outdated (and as such cheap) items.
I'd also add that I prefer non-ABP only when not hewing closely to Wealth by Level. With strict wealth-control, it certainly does feel onerous to keep buying up to par.
Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you would get as many skills boosted with items in a regular game as you would with ABP. ABP actually gives you more than most people would bother spending on.
And I agree with you that perception is important, but not everyone values high initiative that highly nor in having a perceptive character.
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I'd also add that I prefer non-ABP only when not hewing closely to Wealth by Level. With strict wealth-control, it certainly does feel onerous to keep buying up to par.past a certain level you can get +2 in any skill you want fairly cheaply.
I don't think WatersLethe was talking about skill bonus items.
Weapon and armor runes are expensive. And mandatory.
Enough so that there have to be workaround items like a Thrower's Bandolier in order to make some types of builds and fighting styles even viable without ABP.
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Leaves behind enough items to give to players to satisfy the feeling of finding a memorable and useful magical item here and there.
Flat mechanical bonuses are not memorable or satisfying to me.
Now granted most of the items do a bit more than that, but most of those effects also aren't particularly interesting or satisfying (to me) either.
Magic items in PF2 have generally been disappointing.
Almost 0 of the skill boosting items give only skill bonuses. All of them come with abilities.
Right, as I said most of them do something more than just a flat bonus. But many of them are still disapopinting.
The cloak is an example of item that is good, because of the invisibility effect.
But there are plenty of skill bonus items that give other abilities that aren't really worth talking about, and you're probably just there for the skill bonus.
Yes, I frequently forget the special abilities of my items. Items that are clearly meant to increase stats should not have other bonuses as you don't choose them for these.
Yes, I frequently forget the special abilities of my items. Items that are clearly meant to increase stats should not have other bonuses as you don't choose them for these.
I sort of disagree. I think they should have better bonuses that make selecting a specific item more interesting and more competitive.
Ideally, ABP would have been the default and all these skill items that provide a flat bonus and some "ability" would have actually been given an interesting ability worth considering on its own.
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Yes, I frequently forget the special abilities of my items. Items that are clearly meant to increase stats should not have other bonuses as you don't choose them for these.I sort of disagree. I think they should have better bonuses that make selecting a specific item more interesting and more competitive.
Ideally, ABP would have been the default and all these skill items that provide a flat bonus and some "ability" would have actually been given an interesting ability worth considering on its own.
If there was a choice between multiple items giving the same bonus, I'd agree. But as it is, you very often don't have the choice and as such the special ability is one you easily forget because it's not the reason of your choice of item.
If there was more such items, yes, why not. But I'd still be happy with a bland one just giving a bonus and nothing else for those who don't want to have a special effect.
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I want to reiterate my gratitude to all of you. I could only afford one striking rune, so it went on Dumas' pistol ... holy crap did that make a "critical" difference!
What I like to think I would do as a DM is use the ABP and then get creative on magic items. "This sword always points east when you drop it. This hammer plays a chord when it hits metal; each note in the chord corresponds to a different metal. This trident can summon fish to fight for you." Okay, the last one came from an AD&D adventure in 1988 and could use some work.
This trident can summon fish to fight for you." Okay, the last one came from an AD&D adventure in 1988 and could use some work.
1/day 2-action activation that casts Animal Allies (fish only) with a spell rank appropriate to the item level.