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This stems from honest confusion, why is it a problem that if you want an unarmed master (with a complete focus on unarmed attacks) you start with base fighter?Because we have an entire Class in the CRB who is completely built around the concept and theme of being Unarmed and Unarmored whereas the entire concept and theme of the Fighter revolves around Weapon mastery and fighting styles.
The issue isn't so much that the Fighter gets Unarmed Unarmed prof and Weapon Spec so much as it is that the Monk does NOT get it, it completely ruins the mental image and consistency. Gimli should NOT be better at performing Unarmed Attacks than Goku or Ryu, PERIOD.
The monk being unarmed and unarmored is fulfilled (as well as a whole host of other things). The fighter is good at attacking..end. The fighter is more focused. As such, it is better at that which it is more focused on.
How is that simplicity flawed?
I'll probably be doing this math in sections but I did the 8th level monk with Dragon Stance doing 1 action of attacking, so I will share it here now. I may get to 2 action and then 3 action later today. I built a new monk who's focus is attacking, not casting to give the cleanest results. I will add in 1" punch for the 2 action and 3 action comparisons. The character also has ki strike so these will be added into the comparison as well. For kicks, to test out the hypothesis of the OP, I have also added in a boosted attack proficiency for comparison. At level 8, I am assuming no damaging runes, just +1 striking.
This is against a level 8 creature Average AC of 27, with no buffing or debuffing: It does factor in backswing.
8th level 1 action flurry is 16.5432
8th level 1 action ki strike flurry is 22.96
(8th level 1 action flurry shifted up a proficiency is 21.5475)feel free to compare to one action of your favorite other martial. Also, 2 focus points is pretty easy to have by level 8 so in the remastered game, this would be 2x an encounter single action damage for ki strike.
Picking 1 action is cherry picking. Rounds of combat using the standard fighting styles of each class is what you should look at. That will show you the difference in a big way.
Not white room math.
I did not use white room math to clearly show the monk is weaker. I used real play tracking damage against multiple class types. White room math doesn't take into account reaction attacks or other action uses like Sudden Charge and the like.
You're in campaign right now running a monk. Start tracking combat damage. Use a simple Excel spread sheet, track by round, and by combat.
Combat in PF is not static and white room math doesn't measure it well. Instead you should track starting at round 1. It shows you little things like the value of Sudden Charge, how having high initiative boosts your round by round damage because of limited hit point pools, and how critical hits can spike damage which is one of the major reasons why the fighter with increased accuracy has some of the highest damage in the game from combat to combat.
It's pretty easy. Just use excel. Collect the data for each character ensuring you understand the character's play style for each round of combat. Cut each combat into a little section so you have data for each combat. Then analyze it using your own calculations or observations or excel's tools. You'll get a better idea of how each class works.
Please don't waste your time with white room math. I don't use it. I don't find it helpful. It doesn't show clearly what classes do.
I am not going to be slowing down my whole table's game to be tracking my damage outputs in play. We like to get descriptive and exchange banter in encounters and it would be disruptive for me to be trying to document every attack roll and damage roll.
Also, you don't have to convince me that in play experience is what matters, not white room analytics. My character is a casting monk in a free archetype game. sudden charging on round 1 would be horrifically terrible a strategy for my monk when I can be casting a spell and letting my team set up camp. I need to stay close to the champion and then trying to draw one attack a round. Everyone in the party is happy with my monk's damage output, and I have rounds that pretty much keep up with the maul fighter I played as far as damage goes, only my character is sooo much more versatile.
But white room math can be valuable. It is because I did white room math that I figured out that Ki strike is a great feat for the monk and that it should never be combined with 1 inch punch. Ki strike all over the place in early rounds, because making 1 action attacks or roaring and then ki striking is massive damage boosting. But once Ki strike is used up, 1" punch and regular flurry is 19 to 20% better than just trying to flurry and attack twice. It also helps me create a list of good action combos I can use in play without wasting my whole party's time trying to figure out what I should do each round. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
I agree that using white room math to make definitive decisions about things like "what class is the best" based off of 1 particular trick the class can do, and then trying to do that trick over and over again is often a disappointing way to build a character. But looking at the options available to your class and trying to figure out the situation that they would be optimal in, then deciding whether that is a situation worth being prepared for works out pretty well for me.
Let me try to illustrate an example of a combat in PF2. I won't particularly do the math since the combat combinations are many. You need to think about how a PF2 combat goes. We'll use a standard a party with a thief rogue, dragon monk, maul fighter, storm druid, and imperial sorcerer.
You start off against some monster about 30 feet away in some room in a dungeon.
First thing you do, roll initiative which will usually look something like this with variation for the dice:
Rogue: High Perception. Likely a boost initiative feat. May be using stealth for initiative.
Fighter: Good Perception. Boost initiative innate part of the class from Battlefield Surveyor.
Druid: High wisdom.
Monk: Ok perception. Wisdom might be good as secondary stat.
Sorcerer: Charisma focused character. May build up wisdom and obtain initiative feat.
Round 1:
1. Rogue likely delays as they like to wait for martial to head in for flanking and damage absorption.
2. Fighter going to cover 30 feet easy and open with a Knockdown.
3. Rogue moves in next to fighter with Gang Up setting up flank.
3. If monster is fairly weak, druid will open with some cantrip cast and a weapon strike from range. No movement required.
4. Monk moves in and flurries. If monk hits at least once, enemy saves against Stunning Fist and Rogue does Opportune Backstab.
5. At some point the monster will go. If the knockdown is successful it will stand up. Depending on where it goes, fighter will get AoO and Monk will activate Stand Still.
6. Sorcerer will likely hit a single creature with some kind of debuff like a Phantasmal killer or slow depending on how strong it is.
Round 2: How damaged and debuffed is the creature by this time?
1. If creature is heavily damaged and/or debuffed, fighter doesn't bother with knockdown and just smashed the creature as hard as possible. With good rolls, may knockdown or kill the creature anyway.
2. Rogue regains reaction. Rogue hammers the creature as hard as it can. I'd be surprised if it is alive by this time, but maybe.
3. Druid does cantrip or single target spell and bow attack.
3. Monk goes. One Inch Punch and Flurry combo Unicore recommends using. If One Inch Punch hits, Rogue Opportune Backstabs. If creature still alive, flurry goes.
Now most of the battles against a single creature don't last much longer than this. Maybe you'll get to round 3 depending on the creature's AC. If the creature has a strong enough AC to withstand the fighter, maybe you'll get a round 3. If not, it's likely dead, possibly before the monk goes again.
Now I did this not as a completely realistic example of combat as my particular groups usually start farther than 30 feet and use scouting so the rogue is often the point man for a battle. I understand that many groups like starting in this 30 foot range.
Then factor in use of runes, possibly other attack choices and other combat combinations. Rogue is going to apply Debilitations on his first sneak attack. Monk may get lucky and win initiative, then head in set up the trip for the other classes, and fighter may be able to attack twice. It depends on the flow of battle and luck of the dice rolls. Then you could have saves from an aura or a gaze.
The above illustrates some of the standard attack sequences of party's I've seen. One of the reasons why druids have often been so good at doing damage in groups I've seen. They sit back and hit creatures with ranged damage spending move actions rarely spiking damage with spells or other abilities as needed.
You want to think about how a combat progresses and see it in play. Where do the reaction attacks come in? How does the party position? Who is doing the trip? Is the enemy debuffed? How hurt does it look?
There is a lot going on. Which is why I tracked damage instead of white room mathing it. White room math has a real hard time taking into account reaction attacks, different runes, critical specializations, the variation in battle in a group game like PF2.
White room math doesn't show how PF2 battles work very well and why some classes excel, while others fall behind in the group dynamic.
I forgot that. Monk usually has to open a fight getting into a stance unless they take Stance Savant I think. That does take an action.
I forgot that. Monk usually has to open a fight getting into a stance unless they take Stance Savant I think. That does take an action.Yup and Stance Savant comes at level 12. Till then, Monk, like Barbarian is basically Slow 1 in first turn all the time.
That's why I like Monastic Weapon at levels 1-9, you don't have to use 1 action in first turn to enter Stance. You can just Stride, Raise Shield/Heaven's Thunder, Flurry instead. With average combat duration of 3-4 rounds in PF2e every action economy advantage matters.
Yep. Action economy is why the ranger and swashbuckler have problems. Monk a little bit. And why rogue and fighter are king damage.
Rogue and fighter have smooth action economy, powerful reactions, and escalating powerful innate offense options. Fighter has a lot of feat flexibility due to Combat Flexibility allowing feat changing daily and a simple attack sequence. This leaves a lot of feats open for the fighter to take archetypes. I almost always take an archetype to get heroism and some defense buffs. Heroism on a fighter is incredible.
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I forgot that. Monk usually has to open a fight getting into a stance unless they take Stance Savant I think. That does take an action.Yup and Stance Savant comes at level 12. Till then, Monk, like Barbarian is basically Slow 1 in first turn all the time.
That's why I like Monastic Weapon at levels 1-9, you don't have to use 1 action in first turn to enter Stance. You can just Stride, Raise Shield/Heaven's Thunder, Flurry instead. With average combat duration of 3-4 rounds in PF2e every action economy advantage matters.
Yep. Action economy is why the ranger and swashbuckler have problems. Monk a little bit. And why rogue and fighter are king damage.
Rogue and fighter have smooth action economy, powerful reactions, and escalating powerful innate offense options. Fighter has a lot of feat flexibility due to Combat Flexibility allowing feat changing daily and a simple attack sequence. This leaves a lot of feats open for the fighter to take archetypes. I almost always take an archetype to get heroism and some defense buffs. Heroism on a fighter is incredible.
Nothing on Barbarian ?
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This stems from honest confusion, why is it a problem that if you want an unarmed master (with a complete focus on unarmed attacks) you start with base fighter?Because we have an entire Class in the CRB who is completely built around the concept and theme of being Unarmed and Unarmored whereas the entire concept and theme of the Fighter revolves around Weapon mastery and fighting styles.
The issue isn't so much that the Fighter gets Unarmed Unarmed prof and Weapon Spec so much as it is that the Monk does NOT get it, it completely ruins the mental image and consistency. Gimli should NOT be better at performing Unarmed Attacks than Goku or Ryu, PERIOD.
The Monk is definitely Unarmored.
But not necessarily Unarmed.
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I feel like even in PF1 the fighter was a more accurate unarmed combatant, because of weapon training.
Where the monk had an advantage is that while the Monk's 1st attack would never be as accurate as the fighter, the monk's flurry would make the monk have more high accuracy attacks after the first one.
The problem in PF2 is not "the fighter has +2 to hit" so much as "the fighter can straight up poach the full version of Flurry of Blows via archetyping."
I think a reasonable monk fix would just be to give Flurry an upgrade or two around the time other people are getting the level 1 version.
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To sum up issues/possible solutions:
1. Monk dedication should not give access to Flurry. Period. I have no idea who thought giving basically THE CLASS FEATURE to other classes is good idea.
Monks do have other class features like more movement and defenses but Flurry is the defining one.
Taking away toys for a big range of builds is unlikely. The complaints will be much louder. It's just basic psychology. This is very unlikely to happen.
Limiting Martial Artist to stop Fighters getting into the Monk space might get up though. Paizo have clearly tried this before they just failed.
2. Monk should get access to upgrades to Flurry to decrease his MAP/increase damage/number of attacks, anything at levels 10-18
I've been asking for it. Powerwise the Monk is fine outside this range.
3. Monk should either get access to Legendary unarmed or Legendary Unarmored as choice.
Two wrongs don't make a right. I know thematically people want this. But stealing the Fighters main ability eats into the Fighters identity.
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First of all, don't write me random numbers. Show me the graph...Your math on 3 action attacks is for a different level where a bunch changes with runes so it is not comparable to my level 8 analysis, which is where my character picked up 1" punch. The math on Dragon stance attack order gets very complicated with backswing and what accuracy point it is better to switch over to making regular unarmed attacks. It isn't too bad at 2 actions yet, but it is when we get to 3 actions where full map attacks come in and the difference can be a full point of damage on average (at level 8). Adding another damage die changes this even more, as does damaging runes and things that happen on a crit. It doesn't look like Crit kings tool is making those decisions in its calculations so it complicates what I am seeing with your numbers.
I am trying to work on work stuff and not PF2 stuff, but I did look at the 1'P +flurry stuff and interestingly, at level 8, if you can Ki strike, then Dragon roar, Ki strike, and third attack will probably be the best 3 action combo (29.714 without the enemy already being frightened), but once you run out of Ki strike, 1" Punch + regular flurry (26.7435) becomes the next best 3 action option, with flurry+2 regular attacks coming in at (21.7432)
This is what I mean by the monk not being as straight forward of a class as I think people think it is. Every martial class has to think about what their accuracy range is vs their opponent in deciding what attacks to make, but the combination of Good focus point options for increasing damage with flurry, good debuffing options with feats, and good focused damage attacks, there is a lot of moving parts to deciding which attack to make as a monk.
If someone was just looking at flurry +2 attacks as the best possible option with the monk, they would be underestimating the monk's damage potential by a full 25%.
I am curious where the fighter is at level 8 and what they are doing at this level with their 3 actions.
Let's all try to watch our tone. We are here to talk about a game we like playing with our friends. No one is here to win the internet and we should assume that people are doing their best to communicate their ideas, but they might be typing quickly or on a phone and making typos.
I did my math on a piece of paper in front of me at work. Maybe later or tomorrow I can put it in a spread sheet so you can see how I do it. I break things down into their smallest component pieces to try to avoid missing anything.
With backswing, sometimes you don't want to attack with a tail lash because your normal unarmed strike has a better chance to hit and does decent enough damage. If I hit with both Ki Strike tail lash attacks, any further attacks are probably better off being regular d6 unarmed agile attacks (although big accuracy swings can change that) and I can switch to that whenever I want in the cycle depending upon what the previous attacks have done. I have a chart of hitting on a 8, 9, 10, 11,12, etc, that I look at for regular dragon tail lash, regular unarmed attack, 1" punch, Ki strike with dragon tail lash, ki strike with regular unarmed attack, dragon roar then dragon tail attack, dragon roar then regular attack. So when I calculate the math on an at level 10+ hit attack, I start there, then add in the next attack that will be the best DPR given the probabilities of the previous attack. I don't always know these exact numbers in play, but I do know these charts and can usually guess within 1 or 2 after the first round and what I and my allies are rolling. This is one reason why I don't offer a range of levels. The other is because things with runes change pretty often. Level 9 or 10 usually introduces 1 property rune that might be a damage rune or another rune that can change accuracy numbers (like fearsome). Plus new feats and team abilities enter the picture that change things for my character. I can do the math on specific levels, but it takes time to really think about what a character at that level would look like and be using in combat. I picked 8 because that is when I got 1" punch, but if you want 9, 10, 11 or 12 I can do those too pretty easily.
I hope it would be obvious that I know that Flurry of blows has the flourish ability, since I was the one who brought up that it works well with 1" punch, because that ability does not have the flourish trait, which is one of the reasons it is better than power attack.
In my sentence I said, "if you can Ki Strike, then dragon roar, ki strike, and 3rd attack will probably be the best combo." I can understand why that sentence was confusing. If you have the focus points, then Dragon Roar for one action, Ki Strike for one action, then 3rd attack is the 29.714 option. This is a bit of an abstacted estimate, because dragon roar gives a will save vs your intimidation DC, so whether you debuff them or not will have an effect here, but they could also already be frightened if it is a whole party tactic and it is still worth dragon roaring to pick up the +4 damage to the first attack that hits them because that is more damage on average then you will get from a full map attack at -8 or 9 or 10 unless you have a big accuracy bonus.
No one in this party has attack of opportunity. We don't play the knock down reaction attack game. We bomb and battlefield control multiple enemies with spells, and then when we have one tough enemy, we glimpse of redemption them and slow them. I agree that it is not as top tier of a team wide tactic as the prone lock reaction beat down tactic, but people are talking about damage boosting and accuracy boosting the monk here and so that is just a different conversation entirely, because neither a damage booster nor an accuracy booster gives the monk more reactions to play "kick them when they are down."
It is interesting to hear "But what about turn 1!!!! and stances" when we already established that the monk has the best 1 action attack routine in the game, so stance, move and attack with one action is a perfectly fine round for a monk. My monk will probably stance and cast a spell instead because that is how they are built, but stance, move to not quite adjacent and then roar is fine too if you have a dirge of doom/fear team, This monk can nearly do as much damage with roaring and ki-striking for 2 actions as spending 3 actions 1' punching and flurrying, so you can stay mobile and do your big damage ki-strikes in rounds 1 or 2 and then if possibly leave yourself open for a big hit, but do the 3 action attack sequence when you've spent all your focus points. 1" punch + ki-strike is negligibly better than just 1" punch and flurry, so you don't need to combine them.
This is a character who has very good options for the tactical and dynamic situations they face on the battle field. They don't need a 3 action routine to do their best damage, but if they have 3 actions they can do that top damage without spending a focus point.
But the main take away here, is that people are asking for an accuracy boost to the monk class because attacking with full map is usually not that great for the monk, but boosting accuracy for the monk will still make the monk much better when they are not spending all of their actions making attacks. What kind of damage is the fighter doing (and how is it doing this damage) at level 8 that 29.7ish points of damage a round (on average, with 2 different attack routines, one 2 actions with a focus point and one 3 actions without a focus point) is so far behind on that they really need an accuracy boost?
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Maybe my position would be better represented with this: there isn't a problem, there is a dislike.
And, while I can understand the dislike, it doesn't rise to the level of 'needs changing' in my book.
The monk and fighter are very much different chassis with very different feat selections. The names given to them and what concepts placed on them are as relevant as any other whimsy.
Why not make a big deal about barbarians not getting legendary in 2h weapons? Or rogues in finesse weapons? Or rangers in bows? Alchemists in bombs? Warpriests and champions in their deities favored weapons? Swashbucklers in rapiers? Etc..
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And, while I can understand the dislike, it doesn't rise to the level of 'needs changing' in my book.
Yep
The names given to them and what concepts placed on them are as relevant as any other whimsy.
But the game is all about this flavour. The name drives that.
Why not make a big deal about barbarians not getting legendary in 2h weapons? Or rogues in finesse weapons? Or rangers in bows? Alchemists in bombs? Warpriests and champions in their deities favored weapons? Swashbucklers in rapiers? Etc..
There is a clean argument here for Fighters verusus Flurry Rangers as well. The others not so much.
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And, while I can understand the dislike, it doesn't rise to the level of 'needs changing' in my book.Yep
The names given to them and what concepts placed on them are as relevant as any other whimsy.But the game is all about this flavour. The name drives that.
I disagree. Take away all flavor and you still have a very much intact system. This game is most definitely not all about the flavor. It is very relevant, but not everything. This is still a battle simulation game. And, I'll point out, it is the battle simulation part of the game that is being discussed. If it is all flavor why would the mechanics mean so much?
Why not make a big deal about barbarians not getting legendary in 2h weapons? Or rogues in finesse weapons? Or rangers in bows? Alchemists in bombs? Warpriests and champions in their deities favored weapons? Swashbucklers in rapiers? Etc..There is a clean argument here for Fighters verusus Flurry Rangers as well. The others not so much.
But the arguments aren't mechanically significant. They are preference based. So, why don't barbarians get legendary in 2h weapons? That is certainly among the strongest of stereotypes.
Out of curiosity, where did you get the functional cap of 27 from? I always understood it to be 24.
it is 24, I combined the +7 from 24 and 24 itself on accident
Nothing on Barbarian ?I forgot that. Monk usually has to open a fight getting into a stance unless they take Stance Savant I think. That does take an action.Yup and Stance Savant comes at level 12. Till then, Monk, like Barbarian is basically Slow 1 in first turn all the time.
That's why I like Monastic Weapon at levels 1-9, you don't have to use 1 action in first turn to enter Stance. You can just Stride, Raise Shield/Heaven's Thunder, Flurry instead. With average combat duration of 3-4 rounds in PF2e every action economy advantage matters.
Yep. Action economy is why the ranger and swashbuckler have problems. Monk a little bit. And why rogue and fighter are king damage.
Rogue and fighter have smooth action economy, powerful reactions, and escalating powerful innate offense options. Fighter has a lot of feat flexibility due to Combat Flexibility allowing feat changing daily and a simple attack sequence. This leaves a lot of feats open for the fighter to take archetypes. I almost always take an archetype to get heroism and some defense buffs. Heroism on a fighter is incredible.
The barbarian has issues getting hammered at early levels. They have a weak AC early on and can go down quite easy, which ruins their rage.
But no, Rage and Sudden Charge makes up for the lost action due to rage. Sudden Charge is a great action economy feat. At level 11 as they get their more powerful rage feats, they can often combine. Giant for example can rage, grow to giant size, then sudden charge.
Biggest issue I've seen with barbarian is bad AC at low levels making you easy to crit and take down which causes you to lose rage which makes you a really useless character.
But as the barbarian levels and gets enough hit points to get outside that easy crit drop range, they become a violent murder machine, at least the giant instinct barbarian does. The barbarian is one of the most limited classes in the entire game focused almost entirely on combat. But they become such an absolute dominant combat monster with immense hit points doing insane damage that I don't worry about the other stuff.
Sure, I'd like a smoother play experience at the earlier levels, but the early levels are pretty painful for every class living in the one hit crit range.
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I like monks. I think there are things that could make it nicer, but a boring number boost isn't it for me.
Maybe my position would be better represented with this: there isn't a problem, there is a dislike.
And, while I can understand the dislike, it doesn't rise to the level of 'needs changing' in my book.
The monk and fighter are very much different chassis with very different feat selections. The names given to them and what concepts placed on them are as relevant as any other whimsy.
Why not make a big deal about barbarians not getting legendary in 2h weapons? Or rogues in finesse weapons? Or rangers in bows? Alchemists in bombs? Warpriests and champions in their deities favored weapons? Swashbucklers in rapiers? Etc..
If you are talking about Legendary Unarmed Strike, that is one of the preferred fixes for the monk.
There is a mechanical disadvantage with the monk doing substantially less damage than other martials it competes against in the 8 to 10 to 18 level range.
It gains nothing for this damage limitation.
Study the monk class. You will see it doesn't get damage enhancement like a rogue, barbarian, and fighter get to enhance their damage dealing capabilities. The monk gets nothing to keep pace.
If you look at the natural progression of the martial classes, their chassis has some kind of increase to damage enhancement or what the class does well in the case of the Champion. The monk doesn't get this for some reason unless Paizo views it's mobility increases as equivalent, which they are not because mobility doesn't increase damage and is highly dependent on fight areas and party composition which our outside the monk's control.
I noticed this tracking damage in campaigns that the monk started to fall off in competitive damage in the 8 to 10 level range and gained nothing for it. It's AC wasn't superior due to the lack of armor and needing a 20 Dexterity which can only be obtained at level 10 to have parity with other armor users that rely on unarmored defense, specifically only casters.
Then you notice little things like the fighter getting their armor bump at level 11 to Expert, which when using Heavy armor makes them better defensively until you hit level 13. Even when you do get slightly better defensively, it's a 1 point AC difference due to Heavy Armor being one point better than the maximum plus 5 AC the monk gets from armor.
There was no advantage the monk had for the weak damage scaling in those middle to high levels.
The reason no one is asking for barbarians or other classes is because the other classes don't need a boost. I've tracked rogue and barbarian, their are absolutely fine on damage scaling. Giving them legendary proficiency for attack would make them more powerful than the fighter by a good measure. The rogue has accuracy gains from easy flanking. The barbarian damage scaling is pretty nuts for giant and dragon instinct. That's why you don't let those classes dual class with fighter unless you want painful DMing.
The champion's legendary armor bonus is solid because they get to wear heavy armor, so they are always ahead. They have advancement with their Champion's reaction, which the class is known for. As well as feats that increase the number of reaction uses for Champion's reaction or AoOs and the like.
Monk doesn't get any of this. All their damage and defense is fairly static. Main advancement the monk gets is more speed. This is a status bonus to speed that doesn't stack with spells. There is a spell known as fleet step which grants a +30 foot status bonus to speed which gives you level 20 monk speed for 1 minute, the length of most combats. So monk speed can easily be stolen by a level 1 spell.
If the monk's special powers can easily be stolen by low level spells or taken by a level 10 feat anyone taking the monk archetype can pick up with nothing else to show for it, what do they have to keep you playing one other than you just want to? What mechanically makes the monk stand out?
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You can just Stride, Raise Shield/Heaven's Thunder, Flurry instead.
The best defense is a good "not being there."
Why wouldn't you Stride, Flurry, Stride away instead?
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I like monks. I think there are things that could make it nicer, but a boring number boost isn't it for me.
I don't care how they do it myself, but the monk needs a damage boost as they level.
As far as I see it, they can do one of the following and probably accomplish the task:
1. Legendary Unarmed Proficiency: Boosted accuracy leads to more hits, more crits, and more success with feat attacks which should boost their damage.
2. Improving Flurry of Blows. Improving accuracy with flurry of blows would likely accomplish the same thing as Legendary Unarmed proficiency and progress one of the monk's key abilities. This would make the monk the best at flurry of blows, which likely they should be.
3. Improving ki strike to last a minute and advancing the status bonus to hit to the same level as a heroism spell. This would do it as well. But it would force everyone into Ki Strike, which I don't know if everyone wants to get strike. If they do this, might as well make Ki Strike part of the class chassis.
The best choice would probably be improving on Flurry of Blows as that is an innate class feature the monk should be best at. That accomplishes the following:
1. Doesn't infringe on the fighter.
2. Progresses the monk's flurry of blows so they are the best at their key class feature like the fighter is the best at hitting or the rogue the best at sneak attacking and the barbarian at the best at raging.
3. Maintains the variability so many people like about the monk class. That is its big attraction is it is the variable martial that can do a lot of weird little things.
Though Unarmed Legendary Attack would be a fine fix, the preferred fix for myself would be improving Flurry of Blows so that it progresses and isn't something other classes can steal with the archetype.
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Ah yes, the balancing factor for a CRB Class is checks notes...an optional Archetype Feat printed years later in an AP that was re-released in a nerfed state that is specific to one particular dojo/martial arts academy you can only get Access to if you're character hails specifically from Jalmeray and you invest two more feats into it to get another Archetype that then enables you to get a single Feat to fix the numbers to bring you up to about 80% efficiency/damage potential of a CRB Fighter who invests 0 Class Feats into Archetypes that require specific location based Access or significant downtime training with specially placed GMNPCs.
Riiiigggghhhhtttttttt.
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By my comparison of a level 8 maul fighter attacking 3 times with their maul and no special feats comes in at a DPR of 29 flat. Using exacting strike boosts this to 32.
I can see why looking at just flurry + 2 attacks looks deflated by comparison (21.7432) but Dragon roar+ki strike+1 attack is 29.71425 and 1" Punch and flurry is 26.7435
So the Maul fighter with exacting strike is 7% better damage than the Dragon Roar+ki strike+1 attack Monk. Is this a problem? And does anyone really think boosting monk's accuracy here isn't going to seriously topple the fighter's damage? By my calculation, the monk with master proficiency just using ki strike and attacking 2 more times here would do 38.1, and Ki strike flurry+2 attacks is not better than Dragon Roar+Ki Strike+1 attack (but a lot easier to calculate).
Why would anyone play a maul fighter if a monk can just flatly do more damage? At level 10 the maul fighter is getting an extra reaction attack, but the monk has one, and the fighter needing to have the opportunity to use 2 AoOs a turn in order to do more damage than the monk feels like it would be pretty wrong.
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Personally, I wouldn't mind monks getting some form of buff, but legendary unarmed really doesn't feel like the answer. Even outside obvious balance concerns that that massive of a buff would bring, niche protection (why play an unarmed fighter instead of a monk then?), there's also the fact that it just ignores the existence of weapon monks. They're already really hurting, you don't need to make them be falling behind their unarmed counterparts.
Personally, instead, I am quite fond of the giving some buff to FoB for higher levels idea (plus maybe dealing with the fact that getting a stance is pretty much a feat tax + help get weapon monks some more help). Doesn't even need to be massive, just help the issue of people bring able to poach their main class feature (what realistically shouldn't have been allowed, but too late now)
Sidenote: I know this part of the discussion has been long gone, but I view monks as less "masters of unarmed strikes" and more as "masters of their own body", what whilst means very good unarmed strikes, yes, but also the reason for things like their amazing unarmored defense, high move speeds and ability to pick which saves they want to be the best at. Fighters meanwhile are "masters of whatever weapon group they wish to specialize" (with the weird case of 1-4 and 19-20 where they're just "masters of combat"), which in the event they choose brawling covers unarmed attacks.
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Ah yes, the balancing factor for a CRB Class is checks notes...an optional Archetype Feat printed years later in an AP that was re-released in a nerfed state that is specific to one particular dojo/martial arts academy you can only get Access to if you're character hails specifically from Jalmeray and you invest two more feats into it to get another Archetype that then enables you to get a single Feat to fix the numbers to bring you up to about 80% efficiency/damage potential of a CRB Fighter who invests 0 Class Feats into Archetypes that require specific location based Access or significant downtime training with specially placed GMNPCs.
Well yes it would be better as a class feature or in the remastered CRB.
But as a feat it would not necessarily be a feat tax as there are monk who genuinely skirmish and don't just stand there and punch, they might want something else.
There are situations where something like that might be good idea, but generally you should coordinate with your team to try to flank, setup reactions for everyone and use your reactions. Not play outside of your frontline. Also as one of three "beefiest" melees you should be there to split damage done to frontline, not pile it on others. You are not squishy.
Skimishing is a valid tactic, but to use it consistently the party needs to agree on it. There is very little value in skirmishing if you have a melee ally who just wants to charge into melee every time.
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I think the consensus has been "no, thanks" to Legendary Unarmed Proficiency, but "yes, please" to some sort of boost.
As I've said in other threads, a big part of the Monk's power budget goes to movement speed and metal strikes, and both are too situational (when compared to, say, Intensify Vulnerability, Raging Resistance, Debilitating Strike, etc.
Because that's not a good tactic unless every single party member would do the same and that's also hardly optimal considering lost of action for damage, trips, flanking and reactions setup. If you have one other martial in party, then doing that you are playing selfish becasue:
1. You are leaving him alone there to get all the hits since you run away. And you have high HP, high AC, reaction that makes enemies not want to move away from you. Now you left other martial and squishies to get the heat becasue you run away. Focus damage is best tactic not only for players, but also for monsters. Now everyone will pile on other martial.
2. You are stripping your martial buddies of potential flanking bonus since you run away instead of flanking. You are great for providing that since you are mobile. So they should run to front of enemy becasue you have enough movement to run around and give flank
3. You are opening slot for enemies to flank your buddies instead from all sides.
4. If it's for example Champion you denied him a trigger for his reactions as his co-frontliner.
5. You are not trying to trigger other reactions, including yours. If you did instead Stride, Raise Shield, Flurry of Manvouers: Trip->Strike then on enemy turn since you and other martial are next to enemy you would both get trigger for Stand Still plus Attack of Opportunity.
6. If combat map is small you gained nothing apart from not playing with team as enemies will stride to you anyway and now nor you, not your other martial are flanking and you are outside for example Champion reaction or Fighter AoO.
7. If you Stride enough far away using your superior Speed, enemies will just target all the squishies you left behind since they are closer/slower and there is no martial next to them with Stand...
So the solution to optimizing tactics of the most mobile class in the game is to...stand there and take a beating?
Cause if that's the case then I wholly agree that the monk needs some kind of Remaster change.
You can just Stride, Raise Shield/Heaven's Thunder, Flurry instead.The best defense is a good "not being there."
Why wouldn't you Stride, Flurry, Stride away instead?
This can be problematic to the rest of the party.
Stay at monsters range most times attract the attention due better action economy and positioning. So if you constantly Stride away you create a need of your backline have to move too making their live way more difficult specially for spellcasters that needs 2-actions to do most things.
The ideal tactics for most partys is keep the backline at maximum range as possible to try to prevent monsters getting easily closer while frontline chars keeps the monsters distracted and flanked.
Also these hit and run tactics difficulties flaking.
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I mean, in a one-on-one fight between two melee combatants, the monk's ability to hit and run is incredible.
In a team game, the monk (who likely has better defense than most of the rest of the party) being able to get further from danger than the squishy party members are is of limited use since ideally you don't want the big scary thing eating the Cleric.
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The focus point change is going to be a hearty perk to the monks. It is one that only favors one type of monk build though.
I still think the best boost to the monk would be a level 11 ability that is perfected form, but it only guarantees you an 8. This way, the 19th level ability doesn't come completely out of nowhere and it continues to foster using an array of abilities instead of just overloading one clear activity as the best for the monk to do over and over again. An 8 is still enough to hit with only a little bit of tactical support most of the time so it also will help encourage more tactical play.
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The focus point change is going to be a hearty perk to the monks. It is one that only favors one type of monk build though.
I still think the best boost to the monk would be a level 11 ability that is perfected form, but it only guarantees you an 8. This way, the 19th level ability doesn't come completely out of nowhere and it continues to foster using an array of abilities instead of just overloading one clear activity as the best for the monk to do over and over again. An 8 is still enough to hit with only a little bit of tactical support most of the time so it also will help encourage more tactical play.
While the focus point change is obviously a buff to all the focus point classes... I usually don't care about ki stuff and I don't want to feel like I'm missing out on the most powerful part of my class budget if I don't go for it.
As for the suggestion, "you are guaranteed to be subpar" is not very exciting, and seems like the kind of feature that is not friendly to people without system mastery.
I'd honestly have hardcoded Dancing Leaf/Water Step as a class feature just to give the movement more ways to be put to use.
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You can just Stride, Raise Shield/Heaven's Thunder, Flurry instead.The best defense is a good "not being there."
Why wouldn't you Stride, Flurry, Stride away instead?
I tried this. I specifically built a monk as recommended to do this. I've really tried all the monk recommendations.
Why did the mobility not work? A few of the problems.
1. What if you're the main other martial in a group? You and a rogue? You have to remain in place to flank for the rogue. And if the rogue is the other martial, you leaving the combat means all the monsters smile and smash the rogue.
Therein lies the problem with almost any other combination. If you do the whole in and out of battel mobile skirmisher, the other martial or Gods forbid the casters become the next target.
So you the monk with a better AC, better saves, and higher hit points are not taking the hits and the monsters aren't using actions to chase you, they're smiling, shrugging, and beating down the other party members while Mr. Mobile Monk is hopping in and out of battle selfishly avoiding hits while your fellow party members get wrecked.
2. That is if problem number 2 doesn't exist...not enough room.
If you're in a 30 by 30 room or small fighting area, who cares how fast you can move. The monster can still cover the distance and make their attacks if they don't spend their time beating down your fellows instead.
3. AoOs. If the enemy has AoOs, then you're taking those AoOs every time you move out of combat or into combat if they have reach.
And if you're not taking those AoOs, maybe your fellows are.
4. You're putting yourself out of position for reaction based attacks like Stand Still or AoO or Crane Riposte.
In theory the mobile skirmishing monk works. If your entire party were mobile skirmishing monks, it would work for defense. But a mobile skirmishing monk in a party of others that can't move as fast, you're setting everyone else to take the hits you can take better than they can and hurting your own ability to take advantage of reaction based attacks.
By my comparison of a level 8 maul fighter attacking 3 times with their maul and no special feats comes in at a DPR of 29 flat. Using exacting strike boosts this to 32.
I can see why looking at just flurry + 2 attacks looks deflated by comparison (21.7432) but Dragon roar+ki strike+1 attack is 29.71425 and 1" Punch and flurry is 26.7435
So the Maul fighter with exacting strike is 7% better damage than the Dragon Roar+ki strike+1 attack Monk. Is this a problem? And does anyone really think boosting monk's accuracy here isn't going to seriously topple the fighter's damage? By my calculation, the monk with master proficiency just using ki strike and attacking 2 more times here would do 38.1, and Ki strike flurry+2 attacks is not better than Dragon Roar+Ki Strike+1 attack (but a lot easier to calculate).
Why would anyone play a maul fighter if a monk can just flatly do more damage? At level 10 the maul fighter is getting an extra reaction attack, but the monk has one, and the fighter needing to have the opportunity to use 2 AoOs a turn in order to do more damage than the monk feels like it would be pretty wrong.
You're asking a question. Now figure out the answer in play.
On paper the monk looks equivalent or looks better, but in play the fighter beats him for damage. Why? It gets even worse at level 10.
Why does this happen in the group dynamic? Why do fighters excel at damage.
Accuracy alone doesn't explain it.
I did the math on a giant instinct barbarian against a fighter. On paper the giant instinct barbarian should be outdamaging the fighter substantially, but they don't. Why?
Why in real play, non-white room math situations is the fighter sitting on top of the damage pyramid without anything but a +2 accuracy increase? What makes the fighter so deadly?
I've tracked damage across multiple campaigns with multiple class combinations. On paper the giant instinct barbarian or the rogue should be number one by a good measure. But they aren't.
Time and time again the simple fighter comes out on top. If you play with a well built maul fighter, you can see why they are the clear king of single target martial damage.
Druid is probably the overall damage king. That is probably the only class I've seen consistently bring the damage hammer in the most possible situations doing less in single target and huge amounts more in multi-target fights.
Because that's not a good tactic unless every single party member would do the same and that's also hardly optimal considering lost of action for damage, trips, flanking and reactions setup. If you have one other martial in party, then doing that you are playing selfish becasue:
1. You are leaving him alone there to get all the hits since you run away. And you have high HP, high AC, reaction that makes enemies not want to move away from you. Now you left other martial and squishies to get the heat becasue you run away. Focus damage is best tactic not only for players, but also for monsters. Now everyone will pile on other martial.
2. You are stripping your martial buddies of potential flanking bonus since you run away instead of flanking. You are great for providing that since you are mobile. So they should run to front of enemy becasue you have enough movement to run around and give flank
3. You are opening slot for enemies to flank your buddies instead from all sides.
4. If it's for example Champion you denied him a trigger for his reactions as his co-frontliner.
5. You are not trying to trigger other reactions, including yours. If you did instead Stride, Raise Shield, Flurry of Manvouers: Trip->Strike then on enemy turn since you and other martial are next to enemy you would both get trigger for Stand Still plus Attack of Opportunity.
6. If combat map is small you gained nothing apart from not playing with team as enemies will stride to you anyway and now nor you, not your other martial are flanking and you are outside for example Champion reaction or Fighter AoO.
7. If you Stride enough far away using your superior Speed, enemies will just target all the squishies you left behind since they are closer/slower and there is no martial next to them with Stand...So the solution to optimizing tactics of the most mobile class in the game is to...stand there and take a beating?
Cause if that's the case then I wholly agree that the monk needs some kind of Remaster change.
Yeah. It kind of sucks. You have all that mobility and if you use it, it is a net negative for group combat.
The monk and the rogue are occupying the same role in the party in this example. Both are high damage strikers who need protection or mobility tactics for hitting and running. If the rouge were hiding and sniping and hiding again, then the enemy is spending actions trying to attack either martial.
There currently is an “easiest,” best team tactic to PF2 (although we will see if it remains so through the remastery) which is prone locking a single enemy, focus firing on them, and getting reaction attacks to do 25 to 50% of your damage for you. I agree that this is the best strategy currently, but it is also why the fighter spending feats to do unarmed strikes and pick up flurry of blows is actually building away from the top tier of the class. It requires way too many archetype feats to be feasible in any game except a free archetype game. FA is a popular variant rule, but it is not the rule set that the game has to balance itself around. GMs that offer free archetype might need to watch for players looking to use that rule to vastly overpower the options of other players.
Perfected form is about not being able to fail. It cost no action and it only kicks in when you have already made a roll that is worse. It is a total game changer at level 19, but how many players are ever interacting with it to see how good it is? At a minimum of 10, it is too good to give out too early because there will be few fights where a 10 on the first attack is not a hit unless you are debuffed or facing other negative consequences. Even against a solo enemy, just flanking should probably be enough fo the 10 to be an automatic hit.
8 would require a little more more work to be a hit, sometimes, and might not boost you over to a hit against a very tough foe, but more full map attacks aren’t a help in that situation anyway and getting players to think about how to do more than just attack is a good thing to build into classes. Besides, the monk has this feature already, they just barely get to play with it and having similar to it earlier in the game to help make it clear how to use it.
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The monk and the rogue are occupying the same role in the party in this example. Both are high damage strikers who need protection or mobility tactics for hitting and running. If the rouge were hiding and sniping and hiding again, then the enemy is spending actions trying to attack either martial.
There currently is an “easiest,” best team tactic to PF2 (although we will see if it remains so through the remastery) which is prone locking a single enemy, focus firing on them, and getting reaction attacks to do 25 to 50% of your damage for you. I agree that this is the best strategy currently, but it is also why the fighter spending feats to do unarmed strikes and pick up flurry of blows is actually building away from the top tier of the class. It requires way too many archetype feats to be feasible in any game except a free archetype game. FA is a popular variant rule, but it is not the rule set that the game has to balance itself around. GMs that offer free archetype might need to watch for players looking to use that rule to vastly overpower the options of other players.
Perfected form is about not being able to fail. It cost no action and it only kicks in when you have already made a roll that is worse. It is a total game changer at level 19, but how many players are ever interacting with it to see how good it is? At a minimum of 10, it is too good to give out too early because there will be few fights where a 10 on the first attack is not a hit unless you are debuffed or facing other negative consequences. Even against a solo enemy, just flanking should probably be enough fo the 10 to be an automatic hit.
8 would require a little more more work to be a hit, sometimes, and might not boost you over to a hit against a very tough foe, but more full map attacks aren’t a help in that situation anyway and getting players to think about how to do more than just attack is a good thing to build into classes. Besides, the monk has this feature already, they just barely get to play with it and having similar...
A lot of this is accurate. That is what we're talking about. The monk is competing in slots against other classes. In that competition in those middle 10 or so levels, it's losing pretty badly due to the designers not providing a means of damage progression that fits it's fighting style.
I'm not sure why they did this other than perhaps overvaluing mobility in the group combat dynamic of PF2.
There are a lot of ways to build a monk that can attack from reach, move fast, and avoid getting hit. But that fighting style is a recipe for getting the rest of your group wasted.
I was trying to mess around with Wild Winds Initiate to create a sort of ranged, skirmishing monk. It seemed like it would be cool. It absolutely is cool that the monk can avoid hits by attacking from range while skywalking.
Problem was it was cool for me, not so cool for the rest of my group. Here I was doing this inferior damage to other ranged attackers, while avoiding combat, and putting the other party members in harm's way mainly to look cool.
All these cool fighting styles and possibilities and it mostly benefits the monk, doesn't work well with the reaction based attacks, doesn't set up flanking, doesn't do equal damage to other specialized reach or ranged strikers, and overall doesn't provide what you want it to provide for playing a monk.
So I've kind of focused more on a well rounded monk with a shield that is defensive, while tripping opponents to set up the rest of the party. A sort of controller monk. It seems limited and does crappy damage after about level 8 to 10 or so, but seems to work well within the group dynamic allowing flanks and drawing attacks.
The offense oriented monks I've made so far aren't paying off compared to making a rogue or barb or fighter.
So far the best monk builds seem to be a sort of hybrid defender-controller trip monkey. It seems like that leads to a ton of wasted feats sitting there on a list that look tantalizing, but aren't much worth taking unless you like the visual because the damage and abilities are weak.
It sure would be nice to have the monk with all these versatile feats do good damage if you build for offense and not just be another trip monkey controller with some decent personal defenses that can't even protect anyone else.
The fighter does the trip monkey way, way better than the monk to the tune of way more damage while controlling. That's the best monk build I've found as far as effective group character. The offense monk falls far behind other characters built for hammering like the barb or rogue, even farther behind than the trip monkey monk.
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Monk should lose all mystical abilities, and never get more than trained proficiency with unarmed defense. They should also never get more than trained simple weapon proficiency.
Furthermore, they should be able to begin as an expert in their choice of brewing lore, calligraphy lore, lore relevant to their particular monastic order.
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So we have gone from talking about the monk as as whole to monk levels 10 to 18 having specifically an offense problem.
I agree that level 10, 12, and 14 monk feats pretty much push you to either go back and pick up lower level feats, learn a new stance to have variety, or are MC bait. There are not a lot of great monk feats in these levels for a Dragon Stance Monk.
You can go prevailing position at 10, then stance savant 12, then master of many styles at 16 to have a powerful defensive reaction, but the character is probably trying to be more offensively minded and there is not much for that before level 18 again.
So while I do think there is room for some kind of "Superior Form" class feature at a level 10 or 11, I think just "more attack oriented monk feats at levels 10 to 18" is probably the most realistic and likely to happen solution.
I think a lot of classes have a similar problem with feats in these levels, and it does make me wonder if it is intentional to not make MCing so costly. But it especially makes free archetype games feel lackluster
So we have gone from talking about the monk as as whole to monk levels 10 to 18 having specifically an offense problem.
I agree that level 10, 12, and 14 monk feats pretty much push you to either go back and pick up lower level feats, learn a new stance to have variety, or are MC bait. There are not a lot of great monk feats in these levels for a Dragon Stance Monk.
You can go prevailing position at 10, then stance savant 12, then master of many styles at 16 to have a powerful defensive reaction, but the character is probably trying to be more offensively minded and there is not much for that before level 18 again.
So while I do think there is room for some kind of "Superior Form" class feature at a level 10 or 11, I think just "more attack oriented monk feats at levels 10 to 18" is probably the most realistic and likely to happen solution.
I think a lot of classes have a similar problem with feats in these levels, and it does make me wonder if it is intentional to not make MCing so costly. But it especially makes free archetype games feel lackluster
We've been having this discussion for a while. I've never talked about the monk as a whole.
Level 1 to 10 most classes rely on basic weapon damage for their attacks with slowly scaling damage boosting abilities. You don't notice the difference as much in those early levels.
Imagine it like a race. Everyone starts the race sort of equal (except the Swashbuckler who looks great, but trips failing a Panache check in the early run).
You hit the midpoint of the race and the fighter, rogue, magus, and barbarian start pulling ahead. Ranger and monk sit there racing about the same speed. Swashbuckler is still sometimes running fast and sometimes failing panache and tripping falling on his ass, thus is far behind still.
The fighter and rogue sprint ahead of everyone. The barb and magus come in 3 and 4. Monk and ranger are kind of neck and neck fairly far behind running nearly the same speed they've always been running, monk pulls ahead due to Perfected Form. That poor bastard swashbuckler missed another panache roll and fell again.
Perfected Form is nice. Most of the classes get nice stuff at level 19 and 20 except maybe the ranger. Once the fighter hits 20 and picks up Boundless Reprisals or Weapon Supremacy, they still hammer hard. Impossible Striker or Hidden Paragon are just ridiculous for the rogue.
Golden body for monk is also over the top good for the monk. It is another high level feat plus fast healing 20, so I agree that things get really good again for the monk at higher levels, but I think the aren’t bad from 10 to 18 if you have things to do with your feats there. This is also why casting archetypes work well for the monk because you don’t really get much out of them picking up the feats at low levels.
I know you’ve focused specifically on higher levels, but discussing boosting their accuracy (the premise of the thread) when there is only a smaller than half range of problem levels, which I will try to look into later (just looking at graphs of characters doing the same actions over and over again without thinking about what changes at each level leads to missing important stuff) but it takes time.
I still don’t think poachability with the monk is a base game problem, but could be a free archetype problem, probably best solved by just not having D8 agile stances that don’t require unarmored, and possibly making flurry of blows require unarmored as well. These keeps poachers 2 AC behind which is probably enough of an offset.
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Golden body is an uncommon level 20 feat that is a straight better version of an already existing common level 20 feat so it feels weird to me that you keep bringing it up in the monk conversations
Golden body is an uncommon level 20 feat that is a straight better version of an already existing common level 20 feat so it feels weird to me that you keep bringing it up in the monk conversations
The rarity of a feat should not speak to its general power level. I get that might not entirely be true with adventure path feats, but when the first adventure path of the game puts out a feat clearly designed to supersede an existing feat, I take it to mean that the original feat was considered vastly underwhelming. Golden body feels much more appropriate for a 20th level feat and is one that I would make available to my players freely. Very rarely do I see GMs say no to feat options that fit what players want to do with their builds.
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Golden body is an uncommon level 20 feat that is a straight better version of an already existing common level 20 feat so it feels weird to me that you keep bringing it up in the monk conversationsThe rarity of a feat should not speak to its general power level. I get that might not entirely be true with adventure path feats, but when the first adventure path of the game puts out a feat clearly designed to supersede an existing feat, I take it to mean that the original feat was considered vastly underwhelming. Golden body feels much more appropriate for a 20th level feat and is one that I would make available to my players freely. Very rarely do I see GMs say no to feat options that fit what players want to do with their builds.
The thing to me is that some of those feats got added to the APG as just common level 20 feats which says to me that the feats that weren't should be still considered as not default options