how to build a castle underground ?
This isn't really a rules question.
As there aren't really rules for building a castle that isn't underground.
However, spells like Expeditious Excavation and items like Lyre of Building probably help.
how to build a castle underground ?
Is this meant for a player trying to achieve this or for a GM trying to design one for an adventurer?
Also, it probably could have been in the general or advice forum, but it's not like there aren't possible rules questions here.
|
how to build a castle underground ?
I believe Pathfinder 1st Edition is the first game in this family to finally resist the urge to publish specific stronghold building rules (D&D1 had prices in the core rulebooks, D&D2 had a castle guide, and D&D3 had a Stronghold Builder's Guide).
At heart, building a castle is typically a bad idea for PCs for a couple of reasons:
- 1) Most campaigns have the PCs proactively setting out to explore or deal with an issue rather than sitting back in their castle and waiting for trouble to reach them (that's the NPCs' job), so resources invested in a castle tend to be 'wasted' for the most part.
- 2) Adventuring PCs gain power (and more powerful foes) so quickly and construction projects go so slowly that anything the PCs build will likely be obsolete before it is even finished (something designed to stop the goblins and occasional ogre that threatened you last year probably won't help much against the mid-level dragon and/or wizard you angered last week).
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Here are stats for building one castle: Castle
Create: 165 Goods, 31 Influence, 148 Labor, 2 Magic (7,390 gp)
Rooms: 2 Armories, 3 Bedrooms, 2 Bunks, 1 Cell, 1 Courtyard, 1 Crypt, 4 Defensive Walls, 1 Drawbridge, 1 Escape Route, 1 Garden, 1 Gatehouse, 1 Gauntlet, 1 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 1 Office, 1 Sitting Room, 1 Stall, 2 Storages
“An elaborate fortified home, a noble’s retreat, or the heart of a settlement’s defenses.”
The goods influence labor and magic are from the downtime rules, which are aimed at PCs acquiring property as part of day to day life. The specific rooms determine to cost and value added and tie into the downtime system. But if you want just a number, 7,390gp gets you a modest castle.
To build this underground, I would go with wands of Expeditious Excavation as the cheapest means of digging.
our group of pc's wanted to build a castle of our own underground but don't know the cost of it to make in the craft rules it says it costs 1/3rd of crafting !how much does a standard castle cost? does the material matter as well ?
The problem with the downtime rules and kingdom builder rules and such, is if you haven't already been using them it's very hard to just jump in and start using them. The players wont have the resources, and unless you're playing a whole kingdom building game it's probably overkill to use.
Even more, using player wealth to build a castle which wont help the players in most combats is honestly robbing the players of character power by reducing their ability to purchase magic items.
My suggestions is have the players either locate a nearby fortress or stronghold from some undesirable people and have the players clear out the location and start renovating it. You could even say that people who live nearby are willing to come and help renovate it for free because they would like to tend the ground around it (good for farming) and it would give them a safe refuge. And people who want to serve in the town milita would also be happy to help since it will give them a stronghold.
Just do it narratively without worrying about too many hard and fast rules, but make it a quest. Heck, you could even go against a bit of what I just said and make it part of the quest for players to go and convince farmers to move around the castle and help renovate, and convincing the soldiers too for the same. That kind of thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don’t think there is anything wrong with using player wealth to build things like castles or other background resources. In the right circumstances these can be valuable assets for the PCs. They may not be suitable for every campaigns, but in the right circumstances they can be useful.
That being said I have to agree with Claxon and just handle it narratively. The core rule book has rules for cost of living in the gamemastering section. Under Extravagant it specifies the PC lives in a mansion or castle and might even own it. If the players are paying for this standard of living just consider the building the castle as part of the cost of living. This should cover the cost of a standard castle with no magical or extraordinary features. Those types of things should be handled on a case-by-case basis. So, if the players want a permanent anitmagic room have them pay for it separately by paying for a permanent anitmagic field.
If the players have leadership, that can also account for some of the cost of construction. In most settings natural resources are plentiful. If the players have the right to build in the area, they probably also have rights to the surrounding land including its natural resources. Simply have some of your followers to harvest what you need. If you need wood assign some of your followers to harvest it from the nearby forest. If you need a underground structure made have some followers dig it out.
Magic can also help with the construction. There are quite a few spells that can speed up construction. Wall of Stone has a duration of instantaneous which means once cast it cannot be dispelled. Rock to Mud combined with Expeditious Excavation can used to carve out underground structures incredibly quickly. Simply use rock to mud to turn the stone to mud and use expeditious excavation to remove the dirt after the mud dries. If you want to avoid waiting for the mud to dry simply remove the mud using manual labor (followers).
player wealth to build things like castles is for our background resources. the castle is a valuable asset for the PCs which we r making it a home base we not worried about the time to build it only the cost to make it
also how much whd it cost to add more bedrooms we have like 100 npc followers for the party combined we need rooms for them in the castle ?
Create: 165 Goods, 31 Influence, 148 Labor, 2 Magic
Rooms: 4 Armories, 100 Bedrooms, 10 Bunks, 10 Cell, 1 Courtyard, 1 Crypt, 4 Defensive Walls, 1 Drawbridge, 1 Escape Route, 1 Garden, 1 Gatehouse, 1 Gauntlet, 5 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 4 Office, 10 Sitting Room, 1 Stall, 10 Storages
how much whd this cost??
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
also how much whd it cost to add more bedrooms we have like 100 npc followers for the party combined we need rooms for them in the castle ?
Create: 165 Goods, 31 Influence, 148 Labor, 2 Magic
Rooms: 4 Armories, 100 Bedrooms, 10 Bunks, 10 Cell, 1 Courtyard, 1 Crypt, 4 Defensive Walls, 1 Drawbridge, 1 Escape Route, 1 Garden, 1 Gatehouse, 1 Gauntlet, 5 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 4 Office, 10 Sitting Room, 1 Stall, 10 Storageshow much whd this cost??
100 bedrooms, 1 lavatory, why do you hate those people?
|
100 bedrooms, 1 lavatory, why do you hate those people?also how much whd it cost to add more bedrooms we have like 100 npc followers for the party combined we need rooms for them in the castle ?
Create: 165 Goods, 31 Influence, 148 Labor, 2 Magic
Rooms: 4 Armories, 100 Bedrooms, 10 Bunks, 10 Cell, 1 Courtyard, 1 Crypt, 4 Defensive Walls, 1 Drawbridge, 1 Escape Route, 1 Garden, 1 Gatehouse, 1 Gauntlet, 5 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 4 Office, 10 Sitting Room, 1 Stall, 10 Storageshow much whd this cost??
There is an old tale.
An abbot asked an architect to build a monastery. After looking at the drafts for the building he said: "Non sunt angeli."There were no latrines.
also how much whd it cost to add more bedrooms we have like 100 npc followers for the party combined we need rooms for them in the castle ?
Create: 165 Goods, 31 Influence, 148 Labor, 2 Magic
Rooms: 4 Armories, 100 Bedrooms, 10 Bunks, 10 Cell, 1 Courtyard, 1 Crypt, 4 Defensive Walls, 1 Drawbridge, 1 Escape Route, 1 Garden, 1 Gatehouse, 1 Gauntlet, 5 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 4 Office, 10 Sitting Room, 1 Stall, 10 Storageshow much whd this cost??
Look at the create section, then add up the costs of each item:
[165 goods * 20gp] + [31 influence * 30gp] + [148 labor * 20gp] + [2 magic * 100gp] = 3,300 + 930 + 2,960 + 200 = 7,390 gp. Honestly, seems extremely low to me, but this is the smallest, most basic castle you could possible have and even then just the physical building and what's inside it. Think small wooden fort for a small town. A proper castle by another ruleset (kingdom building) costs 54 BP, and a BP costs 4,000gp meaning around 216,000gp; this seems more reasonable for the castle plus the entire support structure and staff surrounding just maintaining a castle of significant size and scope itself and its working features.
i don't see the create section ? i wanted to add up the costs of each item:
[165 goods * 20gp] + [31 influence * 30gp] + [148 labor * 20gp] + [2 magic * 100gp] = 3,300 + 930 + 2,960 + 200 = 7,390 gp.
|
|
i don't see the create section ? i wanted to add up the costs of each item:
To do that by the book, each PC can spend a day finding good, influence, labor, and magic using a skill that makes sense to your GM. On a good roll (20+), they can pay half price for 2 resources, on a normal roll (10+) they find only 1 of the resources at half price, and under 10, no resources.
Since you have followers, you can also do it quickly and simply by paying 2/3 the price. (Find followers under the downtime rules to find the 2:1 boost)
A proper castle by another ruleset (kingdom building) costs 54 BP, and a BP costs 4,000gp meaning around 216,000gp; this seems more reasonable for the castle plus the entire support structure and staff surrounding just maintaining a castle of significant size and scope itself and its working features.
The 1 to 1 kingdom building ideas are a little strange. 1 house by BP is 12,000gp, so two of the castles by downtime rules for a building to house a half dozen people. It makes more sense that 3 BP builds a series of houses, and likewise building a smithy doesn't involve hiring one blacksmith, but perhaps encouraging a group of smiths with many of their own tools and facilities to move into town.
I'd imagine then a kingdom size castle has personnel enough to defend itself and the city/town it is in (giving the entire army stationed there a +8 to defense which can more than double its own defense modifier -- an army which, for comparison, consumes as much as 16,000gp worth of food and supplies per week.)
So somewhere in between you'll find a good balance for your campaign depending on how important your castle is and how much it protects the people in the surrounding area. And if it's sphere of influence becomes really big, you could start your own kingdom with a castle already built.
A proper castle by another ruleset (kingdom building) costs 54 BP, and a BP costs 4,000gp meaning around 216,000gp; this seems more reasonable for the castle plus the entire support structure and staff surrounding just maintaining a castle of significant size and scope itself and its working features.The 1 to 1 kingdom building ideas are a little strange. 1 house by BP is 12,000gp, so two of the castles by downtime rules for a building to house a half dozen people. It makes more sense that 3 BP builds a series of houses, and likewise building a smithy doesn't involve hiring one blacksmith, but perhaps encouraging a group of smiths with many of their own tools and facilities to move into town.
I'd imagine then a kingdom size castle has personnel enough to defend itself and the city/town it is in (giving the entire army stationed there a +8 to defense which can more than double its own defense modifier -- an army which, for comparison, consumes as much as 16,000gp worth of food and supplies per week.)
So somewhere in between you'll find a good balance for your campaign depending on how important your castle is and how much it protects the people in the surrounding area. And if it's sphere of influence becomes really big, you could start your own kingdom with a castle already built.
Note you aren't paying for a single house in kingdom rules, you are paying for housing for approximately 250 working residents (debatably including children), so that 12kgp isn't just for one really nice house. And yes, the castle also comes with 1,000 population of support structure, so says the book at least, though that might also include "increasing the density of surrounding housing" including the increased garrison of defense, servants, coming and going officials, etc.
Either way, my point was that the "downtime rules" present the absolute barebones of a fortified structure that *can* be self-sustaining but without any of the stuff that actually makes it functioning, while the Kingdom rules includes a building big enough to be called a proper "castle" (not just a small wooden fort in the style of a keep, which historically existed in many hamlets) and with it all up and running.
Note there is significant downsides to using "hewn" stone walls from a stone shape over masonry. A stoneshape spell really doesn't let you move a lot of stone, using a wand only gets you 15ft3 per casting, and even assuming you can stack the effects instead of it being the same cap on the total size of the stone, for a 15ft tall wall that is even only 50ft long, you need 21 castings to get that wall even 5ft wide, for a total cost of 4,275gp for that very small castle wall. For reference, castle guedelon's main walls are around 40 ft from base to top and the walls on all sides are over 170ft, not even counting the towers. For four sides, at 40 ft tall, 10 ft wide, and 170 feet long, that's a total 272,000ft3. That would take 18,134 castings from many wand for 4,080,150gp.
From a more realistic standpoint, a single piece of rock acting as a wall with a small "width" to it will shatter outright if you were to break it, not just a 5ft cube segment. This isn't just for these "paper thin" 2 inch thick castings of stone shape, this is for any long stretch of rock that is at least around 10 times as long as it is thick and actually gets worse the taller you make the wall as leverage becomes a factor for broken sections. Meanwhile, with a masonry wall, if a section takes the same say 50 damage that makes the solid wall fracture and then shatter, you aren't automatically losing a large stretch of your wall. Because there are also softer inner parts of a masonry castle wall, it actually would endure brunt force damage far better than a solid block of stone.
also how much whd it cost to add more bedrooms we have like 100 npc followers for the party combined we need rooms for them in the castle ?
Create: 165 Goods, 31 Influence, 148 Labor, 2 Magic
Rooms: 4 Armories, 100 Bedrooms, 10 Bunks, 10 Cell, 1 Courtyard, 1 Crypt, 4 Defensive Walls, 1 Drawbridge, 1 Escape Route, 1 Garden, 1 Gatehouse, 1 Gauntlet, 5 Kitchen, 1 Lavatory, 4 Office, 10 Sitting Room, 1 Stall, 10 Storageshow much whd this cost??
You don't need to create 100 individual room for each followers, 1 room 20x20 can hold up to 10 people, if you want you can only create 4-5 room to hold all the people and put a room (5x10 or 5x20) as toilet, and an another room 10x10 as a group bathroom, if you have some of this npc to act as a leader or commander of group (regular is 1 leader per 5-10) you can give the they personal room
how much whd that cost, 1 room 20x20 can hold up to 10 people, if i create 4-5 room to hold all the people and put a room (5x10 or 5x20) as toilet, and an another room 10x10 as a group bathroom?
700gp for each room (10 room for 100 npc 7000gp), 400gp for each bathroom, 150-200 each toilet for 5 person