I personally really like it when the creators put their own spin on a myth (when it's respectful of the cultures the myth is from, of course), because it's a chance to see a new creative vision instead of a reprint of someone else's stories. But I know that's not so much Paizo's style these days, and I am also really excited for the directions they're taking with creatures like the hags as they move closer to their fairy tale origins.
I personally really like it when the creators put their own spin on a myth (when it's respectful of the cultures the myth is from, of course), because it's a chance to see a new creative vision instead of a reprint of someone else's stories. But I know that's not so much Paizo's style these days, and I am also really excited for the directions they're taking with creatures like the hags as they move closer to their fairy tale origins.
You may be delighted to know that one of the designers--I think Eleanor Ferron--refers to the new hags as, "bird mom, nail mom, taffy mom, and octo mom" on a recent stream. I don't know if that was all the names, I mostly picked out the ones that stuck in my ear.
Speaking of folkloric or mythical origins, I deeply wonder whether we'll see anything of the regenerating troll again. Troll regeneration has been a significant part of their characterisation on Golarion, but as far as I know it's another D&Dism that would likely have to changed (perhaps the green skin, too), but I'm not sure what makes them distinct from ogres or other giants at that point. I'd be interested to see what they come up with, closer to scandinavian trolls or else-wise.
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I wonder what's going to happen to the troll augurs of Kaer Maga?
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I can see Banshees being unmarried from Elves anyhow, since that connection is pretty much just an OGL thing right? The Rakshasa has experienced greater changes over it, lost their backwards hands and are now primordial evil spirits, not even fiends anymore. So I'd be surprised if Banshees were entirely unchanged.The OGL can't reserve folklore for WotC's use.
And that’s the thing with pulling real-world folklore into established Campaign Settings. My understanding was that Golarion’s elves are aliens from Castrovel, and not tied to the fey/fae or the First World.And that is certainly one of the established things about the setting, which complicates things, because the banshee comes from a body of traditional lore where elves and sidhe are basically synonymous. It means you can't have the banshee be both in this setting. Seems odd, but workable. Not having the banshee be EITHER just makes me wonder what about it is supposed to be a banshee.
You want to homogenize two similar mythical beings from two different cultures and I'm the one who hates folklore. Funny thing is, among the things these cultures have in common is how little we know about the state of the folklore before Christianization. We simply do not have the information to track the no doubt rich folklorical similarities and connections.Do not act as if the commonalities between Norse and Celtic culture originates with me. There are countless books on the subject. If you're more of a casual enjoyer of mythology, folklore, and history, the mutual influence of Norse and Celtic cultures is a subject that frequently comes up on several YouTube channels. My favorite folklore channel is The Fortress of Lugh, and while the Norse influence doesn't come up in every video, it has been mentioned several times in the ones I've watched. Yes, a lot of it has been lost to time and Christianization. No, not enough has been lost that we...
First of all, no, obviously OGL doesn't mean WotC reserves folklore, that's not what anyone is saying. The OGL represents a certain expression of the folklore that is WotCs idea/mechanics, the way they did the Banshee is theirs.
And for the record, you don't translate sidhe to elf, they're comparable entities involved but sidhe is the word for the mounds and hills the Aos Si (the actual similar folks) live under. End of the day it is a conflation, and a DnD/WotC original one.
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Because it’s Tuesday.
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I would caution anyone attempting to conflate the etymology of a word with its definition... or even the definition of a word with the law on its meaning. Words have histories of meaning that change, and in common use, context is king. For example sidhe originally referred to the mounds of the fairies, but over time the term 'aos sidhe' (people of the fairy mounds) got shortened to sidhe, such that now it's common enough to call the people of the mounds by just 'sidhe' despite that word's original meaning.
For an interesting example, the words 'elf' and 'elven' used to be masc and fem variations of the same creature, but thanks especially to Tolkien, we now use 'elven' mainly as an adjective.
Of course, while interesting, this etymological history is nevertheless not pertinent to the question. To date, Golarion elves have never been fey creatures. They do not, to my knowledge, live in fairy mounds, and they are not sidhe. Certainly not anymore than they are goblins, or incubi. Whatever old folkloric inspirations make their way into Pathfinder's depiction of elves, they're still aliens from another planet.
From a practical standpoint, I have found it odd that a non-fae humanoid has an exclusive form of incredibly dangerous undead, as if elf souls are in some way unique compared to all other souls. In D&D this at least made sense where elves are descended from fae, even though it's still a bit weird. I'd rather an actual fae banshee rather than a pretend-fae banshee, whether it's undead or not.
In any case, Dancing Wind is right, Paizo will do with their banshee what they think best, based on advice from their lawyers and not whether any one of us thinks it would be easy to argue one way or another in court. These discussions about what the OGL does and doesn't mean have filled the boards since the announcement of the remaster, but still sometimes people feel the need to dictate what Paizo does or doesn't need to do, rather than keeping their tone speculative.
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This banshee discussion seems to be getting a little heated, repetitive, and worst of all... boring. So I propose a change of pace;
What changed/new monsters are making it in? With all those old pages being being trimmed, *something* has to fill the gap. Monster Core says it's going to have over 400 monsters, which is in line with Bestiary 1's monster count, so something needs to be added back in.
Like I know I can already see some like the Ofalth is probably stepping in for the Shambler/Shambling Mound. Drow being removed could make room for more Xulgath/Sekmin/Hryngar variants or pets. Are Paizo going to publish monsters from Adventure Paths like the Tanglebones?
Goodbye Owlbear, hello... Crowboar? A brutish monster with a bonus to prying open doors and containers with its beak... You can have that idea for free, Paizo.
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I really think Paizo should make it clear that "Elves aren't really special, they're just from a different planet, but so are like Ratfolk."
So if there's a special kind of undead that only comes from elves, you need to do several special kinds of undead that only comes from dwarves, or gnomes, or orcs, etc.
Heck, if there is a ancestry on Golarion that should have special undead version, it's probably gnomes since the whole reason that gnomes got kicked out of the First World is (probably) that they were too interested in mortality and got Pharasma (and thus one or more of the Eldest) annoyed at them.
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Well, to be fair, having played in too many games with them - who haven’t gnomes annoyed?
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This banshee discussion seems to be getting a little heated, repetitive, and worst of all... boring. So I propose a change of pace;
What changed/new monsters are making it in? With all those old pages being being trimmed, *something* has to fill the gap. Monster Core says it's going to have over 400 monsters, which is in line with Bestiary 1's monster count, so something needs to be added back in.
Like I know I can already see some like the Ofalth is probably stepping in for the Shambler/Shambling Mound. Drow being removed could make room for more Xulgath/Sekmin/Hryngar variants or pets. Are Paizo going to publish monsters from Adventure Paths like the Tanglebones?
Goodbye Owlbear, hello... Crowboar? A brutish monster with a bonus to prying open doors and containers with its beak... You can have that idea for free, Paizo.
I'm not sure we'll see that a very large number of things have been removed. Plenty OGL things are in a place where a change (ranging from slight, like hryngar becoming pyramid scheme activists, to major, like redefining dragon taxonomy) could be enough. Meanwhile, we know there are a number of creatures where their 'role' is more important than who or what they are, so while they're being removed, the niche they occupy will still be filled. Good examples of this are 'sapient sewer monster' otyughs and the 'psychic body snatchers' intellect devourers (whose new name we already know: xoarians)
... I like the idea of the new and improved bearjay, but that crowboar concept you got there is nothing to sneeze at. That could go places.
All that said, the monsters I most await with bated breath is to know what happens to the new Outsider monsters (as far back as the first page of this thread in May). My fondest hope is that we get new, tighter themed families of immortal spirits like what 2e had been modelling out of the legacy Outsiders. My greatest fear is that many of these families will simply not be important enough to see for a couple bestiaries, if at all. What role do once-called Inevitables have in this cosmos? Axis still exists but how soon will we 'need' stats for its guardians? How much damage is this godswar going to do to the organisation of the Outer Sphere (to date my favourite version of a D&D-inspired cosmos)
... But then I suppose while personages such as the inimitable Amber Stewart remain in the writer credits for the new planar stuff, I remain optimistic that I'll find something I like in whatever comes down the line.
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In western pop culture, the banshee is a fae spirit dealing with death.
In Golarion, elves are aliens and not fae at all.
So calling undead aliens banshee does feel much stranger than having a kind of undead fae called banshee.
So, yes I hope in Remastered Golarion the banshee will go back to its fae nature.
Banshees becoming some sort of undead Fey creature would be rad, or maybe just a powerful manifestation of any betrayed person/herald of death and tragedy. Jury's out for what will change, clearly they don't mind changing some sacred cows even to their own setting (like how Rakshasa have gone from reincarnating and born from some dickish mortals, to becoming primordial evil spirits). I'm curious about what Celestials and Monitors might get shifted into spirits/other species.
The concept of an undead fae creature is really interesting, since nothing in the First World can actually die and this is a place with a significantly higher than normal influx of vitality energy. It's an extremely weird place to be undead.
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The Sluagh are an example of an undead fey.
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My thinking is inevitables will complete the transition to being aeons. They already have both traits now as it is. They might need name changes too? I'm not sure of the origin of names like marut. They might also get consolidated together. Maruts and akhanas have a fair degree of overlap, for example, though they are still different-ish.
Well, looks like we might get our answer soon. Monster Core preview confirms that aeons will at least make an appearance. No word on whether there'll be any "spirit construct made to be a defender of cosmic law" type aeons or if they'll all be reprints of the formerly "neutral arbiter between opposed cosmic principles" variety but we'll certainly he seeing some.
The Sluagh are an example of an undead fey.
Hah, I forgot that these had made it into 2e already. These are what I was referencing back in the first post about the distinction between what we think of as undead/ghosts and fae isn't a clear, hard line in the mythology, aside from he much more clear and specific definitions used for the game. This is exactly the kind of thing I'd like to see banshee become if banshee had to keep the undead trait. Alternatively, a spirit fae seems like it should work, but we'll have to see what Paizo wants to do with them. Match the Mythology section has me hopeful in the aforesaid blog post.
.. I like the idea of the new and improved bearjay, but that crowboar concept you got there is nothing to sneeze at. That could go places.
Oh, Bearjay is a lovely pun. I need to think of some other weird animal-bird hybrids. Great Hareon? Chickadeer? Maybe need to go back to the drawing board...
The preview looks good more monsters, I like seeing the Sargassum Heap replacing the Shambler, but I grew up around the water. Cool to see more marine monsters make the list, inspiring for a nautical adventure. "As you approach the island your ship can't help but sail through the sargassum patch, and subtly the algae starts to shift. Two humanoid shapes climb over the side and hit the deck with a wet thud... Roll initiative."