This post is rompted by a reddit post in which the main subject line was along the lines of 'plz help my players are demolishing severe encounters". In it they detail the group composition (which I am not going to do) and how they get the most they can out of their magus through things like synesthesia, inspire heroics, true strikes, etc. I thought it was great, I still do.
My sort of worry is that this sort of thing is far and away the best way to play the game. In my game we are level 18 and have heroism and synthesia and throw flat footed and aid each other as much as we can and it's a good time. But I don't want to feel like that's the single best way to deal with tough fights. There's not much that can debuff as well as synesthesia or only a couple ways that I know of to get +3 status bonuses out to the party.
Does anyone have advice for good strong tactical play or group comp that is as good or better than stacking the same buffs and debuffs?
Sure, a couple points:
-Stacking buffs can only go so far, as you can only benefit from the highest bonus from each of the three types. If I remember that thread correctly, they had made a rules error and the magus had benefitted from too many bonuses.
-That party had worked together to come up with a strong strategy, which should be rewarded! If your players come up with a good idea, its important to let them have that victory. Its only when that idea becomes overused that it becomes an issue (as is the case in that Reddit thread).
-Dispel Magic is a heck of a drug. So is Anti-Magic Field and similar effects.
-Your tactics won't help if you're ambushed! Give your players a Perception check or two, then BAM! Assassins.
-Battlefield control spells, especially those that split the party (ex: Wall of Stone) and/or lockdown a single target (ex: Paralyze)
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The way I tend to think of it is to compare to various sports.
PF2 is a lot like volleyball. Bump, set, spike is a powerful combination and pretty much a team's entire strategy revolves around doing that, and doing it better than the opposing team. And it takes the entire team in order to accomplish it.
PF2 is a lot less like basketball where you could have an entire team that plays equally, but you can also have a team where there is one main star player and everyone else is standing around being little more than a distraction threat.
PF2 is also not like hockey where the match is won or lost based almost entirely on the heroics of the goalie.
Synesthesia may be a bit too strong. It could perhaps use the Incapacitation trait. Or maybe making the caster choose one of the three effects rather than having all three of them.
But in general, a team effort of protecting, buffing/debuffing, and hitting really hard is probably the equivalent of bump, set, spike in volleyball.
I agree with both of you. Maybe I didn't make my intent clear; I love the teamwork aspect of 2e, even just stacking buffs. My 'worry' is that there's just a couple strong options in synesthesia/inspire heroics/heroism, and those options are so strong they blow other options out of the water.
Like there's a bunch of options to make an enemy flat footed, which I love. Circumstance bonuses are a little tougher in some ways but anyone can aid at least. Are there any good options to replace those huge status penalties and bonuses? There are a decent amount of ways to get frightened, but it's not usually as strong as -3 and it fades quickly.
I dunno, I guess I'm hoping for some other awesome group comps that can do awesome teamwork without just doing the same thing.
Doesn't help that even when you aim for frightened 3, it's usually only on a failed save while synesthesia just doesn't care.
Unless they powercreep those spells or print something with a lower number but with some great bonus effect and that isn't reliant on failed saves, you can expect heroism and synesthesia to be entirely irreplaceable in your party's de/buff routines. Except perhaps by some resourceless versions used when the full spell isn't needed or isn't available.
How many Heroisms can they crank out? Or why do the casters always know to when to precast so well? How about false targets for those synesthesia spells? If that's about all their spell load, then yes, they deserve those payoffs, but what other types of obstacles will make them struggle?
If a single enemy (or few) in an expected battle falls prey to those tactics, do the opposite and toss in a horde that can Dim Door in out of nowhere. Or mechanical traps, chase scenes, haunts, and the rest of the gamut of encounters available. And of course put a day-timer on them so they can't simply rest to refill their Heroism/Synesthesia slots, yet stretch out threats (or the threat of threats) enough they can't milk the Heroism too much. And many enemies at the highest levels should be able to choose their battles. Get too badly debuffed...Dim Door out, or are they always caught in their final lair, treasure room, altar as the ritual approaches? Aggressive enemies can move out to intercept the party, then they'll have room to retreat if nerfed too quickly or the party's glowing way too much with power ups.
Reminds me of some developers running through an old (then new) AP, where they were in a temple, opened a door to see a plethora of priests, so they closed the door and held it shut to out wait the duration of any buffs those priests would toss up. And it worked. You gonna come into the hall so we can flank you in small numbers, or you gonna lose those buffs?
(That's one great thing about PF2, monsters come ready w/o necessary buffing.)
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This post is rompted by a reddit post in which the main subject line was along the lines of 'plz help my players are demolishing severe encounters". In it they detail the group composition (which I am not going to do) and how they get the most they can out of their magus through things like synesthesia, inspire heroics, true strikes, etc. I thought it was great, I still do.
My sort of worry is that this sort of thing is far and away the best way to play the game. In my game we are level 18 and have heroism and synthesia and throw flat footed and aid each other as much as we can and it's a good time. But I don't want to feel like that's the single best way to deal with tough fights. There's not much that can debuff as well as synesthesia or only a couple ways that I know of to get +3 status bonuses out to the party.
Does anyone have advice for good strong tactical play or group comp that is as good or better than stacking the same buffs and debuffs?
Demolishing Severe-Threat encounters? Amateurs. My players demolish Extreme-Threat encounters.
Actually, they have not bothered upgrading their equipment for several levels, so they are no longer capable of demolishing Extreme-Threat encounters. But they used to.
And their technique is adaptive teamwork tactics, so they use different tactics against different opponents. That keeps the combat amusing.
Their builds focus on defense, versatility, and teamwork.
The defense has two uses. First, it gives them time for Recall Knowledge and other techniques (sometimes just a round of combat) to learn the tactics and special abilities of their opponents. Second, in teamwork tactics one team member is often the key, and a good defense keeps that member alive and active.
Once the party figures out the opponents' fighting abilities, they switch to a tactic that makes the opponents' abilities ineffective. Is the opponent a melee specialist? Then pull away to attack at range. Is the opponent a ranged specialist? Take cover, hide, and sneak up on them to attack in melee. Does the opponent have a high AC. Debuff that AC with flat-footedness and fright. Both the rogue and the ranger have a way to apply flat-footedness to a target they hit. Does the opponent deal massive damage? Rotate out the injured person and let an uninjured person take point while the injured one is healed with spells and Battle Medicine. Is the enemy army disorganized? Add to their chaos to open up weak points. Is the enemy army disciplined? Deceive them about their orders to send them after hardened targets.
For example, at level 16 I unleashed a 18th-level advanced Wendigo, escaped from a cage in the enemy stronghold. The party ran deeper into the stronghold to that the wendigo fought their next opponent instead, a 19th-level Primal Bandersnatch.
The monsters in PF2 are specialists. They have 2 really good tactics, or maybe 3 fairly good tactics on a creature built like a PC. And a group of opponents typically consists of copies of the same creature, so grouping togehter does not increase the variety of their tactics. Player characters, in contrast, are built as generalists. A versatile generalist has 5 or more workable tactics. And each PC is different, so a party of four PCs has a dozen tactics available. One of those tactics nullifies all three tactics available to the enemy.
A weak point in versatility is that maybe just one PC has a tactic that demolishes the enemy. In that case, the rest of the party ought to play support to that one PC with the great tactic. Thus, my players also build for teamwork.
The optimal tactical way to play is what you read.
You can win without those abilities/spells, but they make it much, much easier. Trip is the God Maneuver. Synesthesia is the God Debuff. Add in heroism or bard bonuses, wreck everything.
Seems like the heart of the matter is mostly that heroism and synthesia (maybe inspire heroics too) are the main issue in that they are maybe a little too strong. Or at least too unique, if there were more ways get get similar buffs and debuffs I think it would be less of a problem. I dislike feeling forced to take certain spells, or at least knowing if I took that heroism/inspire courage that last fight could've been a cakewalk.
For the record my own group has heroism at least, but we don't use it all that often and we do manage to get by. But we definitely can struggle against bosses.
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What makes these two stand out imo is that it's much harder to deny the bonuses.
Heroism just works, and Synesthesia applies the full debuff (just for a shorter duration) even on a success.
But heroism is also in an awkward place where it's amazing at high levels but at low levels feels kind of bad when put next to IC.
Synesthesia is, in my opinion, too strong. There's no other spell able to swing the balance even on a successful save. It should be a much higher level spell or they should reduce the effect on a success.
Heroism is strong, but it asks for prebuff as its duration is quite short. So it's not that hard as a GM to deny it: Just make unexpected fights. That's why I tend to prefer Bardic Compositions that are easier to apply and can get nearly as high as Heroism once you add in Inspire Heroics. Amp Guidance has the same effect, so in my opinion it's a rather expected series of buffs.
Seems like the heart of the matter is mostly that heroism and synthesia (maybe inspire heroics too) are the main issue in that they are maybe a little too strong. Or at least too unique, if there were more ways get get similar buffs and debuffs I think it would be less of a problem. I dislike feeling forced to take certain spells, or at least knowing if I took that heroism/inspire courage that last fight could've been a cakewalk.
Worth mentioning that no one is forced to take those spells.
Pushing towards powercreep is the way to simplify the content along with lowering the encounter difficulty ( like back in 3.0,3.5 and 1e ).
It is efficient ( as it is getting a fighter over any other martial class) but it's not mandatory. And it would also negatively impact on your experience ( making a boss fight trivial is not a good thing IMO).
I mean of course I was being hyperbolic when I said I felt forced to take those spells, no one's holding a gun to my head or anything. But picking between synesthesia/heroism and almost any other spell is like, do I want to take the good spell that will make boss fights easier and my party stronger, or this other cool spell that's not as powerful?
Also I don't know if it would be powercreep to publish more spells as strong as synesthesia, just add more variety. Its basically the same argument as electric arc being the strongest cantrips and what should be done about it, so I'm not sure I want to beat that dead horse.
I don't really think of Synesthesia as something you're forced to take, so much as why you pick the occult spell list in general. It is a really strong tool but I'm not sure the occult spell list feels unbalanced on the whole. Every spell list has a small number of really really good spells and some glaring weaknesses it doesn't cover at all.
I don't really think of Synesthesia as something you're forced to take, so much as why you pick the occult spell list in general. It is a really strong tool but I'm not sure the occult spell list feels unbalanced on the whole. Every spell list has a small number of really really good spells and some glaring weaknesses it doesn't cover at all.
What are the really good unique Arcane Spells for combat?
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Your tactics won't help if you're ambushed! Give your players a Perception check or two, then BAM! Assassins.
I don't think Perception and Stealth work that way.
The wouldbe assassins would get secret Stealth checks against the party's Perception DCs. Except for initiative, it is unlikely that any of the PCs would get any Perception checks at all.
I don't really think of Synesthesia as something you're forced to take, so much as why you pick the occult spell list in general. It is a really strong tool but I'm not sure the occult spell list feels unbalanced on the whole. Every spell list has a small number of really really good spells and some glaring weaknesses it doesn't cover at all.What are the really good unique Arcane Spells for combat?
It's only contingency last I checked. Most of arcane's spells, combat or otherwise, are shared by other traditions. Usually occult but the blasting and walls go to primal.
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I don't really think of Synesthesia as something you're forced to take, so much as why you pick the occult spell list in general. It is a really strong tool but I'm not sure the occult spell list feels unbalanced on the whole. Every spell list has a small number of really really good spells and some glaring weaknesses it doesn't cover at all.
Synesthesia falls under the "mandatory" tier of options, not unlike Fighters et. al. taking Sudden Charge, or Clerics preparing Heal/Harm spells. After all, you aren't going to be doing much else with your spell list, other than Haste/Slow, or the occasional Soothe.
Occult has all of the best Arcane spells with none of the drawbacks, and has more "unique" spells (which are easily Occult's best spells, by the way,) compared to any other tradition list.
It either needs a nerf on its existing/exclusive options, or it needs to not be so exclusive in some of its spells, or it needs exclusive analogues; because seriously, I'm baffled how Occult can utilize a spell like Synesthesia, but Arcane cannot.
That was my post (the reddit one) lol
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I don't really think of Synesthesia as something you're forced to take, so much as why you pick the occult spell list in general. It is a really strong tool but I'm not sure the occult spell list feels unbalanced on the whole. Every spell list has a small number of really really good spells and some glaring weaknesses it doesn't cover at all.Synesthesia falls under the "mandatory" tier of options, not unlike Fighters et. al. taking Sudden Charge, or Clerics preparing Heal/Harm spells. After all, you aren't going to be doing much else with your spell list, other than Haste/Slow, or the occasional Soothe.
Occult has all of the best Arcane spells with none of the drawbacks, and has more "unique" spells (which are easily Occult's best spells, by the way,) compared to any other tradition list.
It either needs a nerf on its existing/exclusive options, or it needs to not be so exclusive in some of its spells, or it needs exclusive analogues; because seriously, I'm baffled how Occult can utilize a spell like Synesthesia, but Arcane cannot.
I'm not sure I'd agree that Sudden Charge is mandatory given how small some dungeon rooms are, and I don't think clerics need to use their prepared slots for heal or harm when they have Divine Font slots automatically. Also, those are both level 1 options as opposed to level 9.
It's only contingency last I checked. Most of arcane's spells, combat or otherwise, are shared by other traditions. Usually occult but the blasting and walls go to primal.I don't really think of Synesthesia as something you're forced to take, so much as why you pick the occult spell list in general. It is a really strong tool but I'm not sure the occult spell list feels unbalanced on the whole. Every spell list has a small number of really really good spells and some glaring weaknesses it doesn't cover at all.What are the really good unique Arcane Spells for combat?
To be clear I wasn't limiting that comment to unique spells, but taking the list holistically. Arcane has lots of options occult does not, even with many being shared by primal.
Synesthesia is, in my opinion, too strong. There's no other spell able to swing the balance even on a successful save. It should be a much higher level spell or they should reduce the effect on a success.
I think the spell would be fair if you only got one of the effects on a successful save. If you really wanted to press the thumb down you could make the failure only give two of the effects.
I do wonder if synesthesia will get nerfed in the remaster. I hope not, honestly, I'd much rather other comparable options. Even if some other spells only gave clumsy 3 for a minute on a fail, synesthesia would likely still be better by virtue of its other effects and being a will save (hello bon mot).
If buffs/debuffs are clear winners in optimizing a party (and to me they are), it shouldn't be limited to a single spell list. Especially when that spell list gets so many other goodies, including heroism
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The druid tempest surge gives clumsy 2 for a round on a failure. That's why it's such a good focus spell on top of the damage.
To be clear I wasn't limiting that comment to unique spells, but taking the list holistically. Arcane has lots of options occult does not, even with many being shared by primal.It's only contingency last I checked. Most of arcane's spells, combat or otherwise, are shared by other traditions. Usually occult but the blasting and walls go to primal.I don't really think of Synesthesia as something you're forced to take, so much as why you pick the occult spell list in general. It is a really strong tool but I'm not sure the occult spell list feels unbalanced on the whole. Every spell list has a small number of really really good spells and some glaring weaknesses it doesn't cover at all.What are the really good unique Arcane Spells for combat?
But those options are relatively weak compared to what the Occult list already gets. Fireball, Chain Lightning, et. al. aren't going to be as important as Synesthesia on a boss, which is really the encounters that you are most likely to TPK, since multiple low level enemies aren't generally going to be a threat. And getting access to a heal like Soothe is something that is used across all levels of play, compared to what...Burning Hands? Shocking Grasp? Pretty weak spells in the upper levels, TBH. The way I see it, Arcane got shafted and poached real hard, to the point that its "unique" spells are garbage, and everything else it does well can be done with another list.
Even taking options like Disintegrate or Polar Ray into account, the former is best used as utility in the forms of exit/entrance creation, and the latter is just an amped up Ray of Frost, which is pretty yawn-worthy.
I'm not sure I'd agree that Sudden Charge is mandatory given how small some dungeon rooms are, and I don't think clerics need to use their prepared slots for heal or harm when they have Divine Font slots automatically. Also, those are both level 1 options as opposed to level 9.I don't really think of Synesthesia as something you're forced to take, so much as why you pick the occult spell list in general. It is a really strong tool but I'm not sure the occult spell list feels unbalanced on the whole. Every spell list has a small number of really really good spells and some glaring weaknesses it doesn't cover at all.Synesthesia falls under the "mandatory" tier of options, not unlike Fighters et. al. taking Sudden Charge, or Clerics preparing Heal/Harm spells. After all, you aren't going to be doing much else with your spell list, other than Haste/Slow, or the occasional Soothe.
Occult has all of the best Arcane spells with none of the drawbacks, and has more "unique" spells (which are easily Occult's best spells, by the way,) compared to any other tradition list.
It either needs a nerf on its existing/exclusive options, or it needs to not be so exclusive in some of its spells, or it needs exclusive analogues; because seriously, I'm baffled how Occult can utilize a spell like Synesthesia, but Arcane cannot.
I've seen Sudden Charge used across all levels of play, and I've seen Clerics prepare Harm/Heal slots even though they have Fonts providing free slots for them (especially when they don't have the option to do both, either based on deity choice or because they didn't invest the feat to be able to prepare both with their Fonts), and the point is that these are "must-have" options, their level shouldn't matter.
If you want to compare it to an "at-level" option, let's try Multi-Talented, then; the ability to take a multiclass dedication without any care for dedication restrictions (or even attribute restrictions if Half-Elf) is pretty potent and unique, often better than most other ancestry feats you can get.
As far as I know, the only common option that gives a -2 status penalty on success is the 9th level unspeakable shadow giving frightened 2 (and which comes with some other nice riders).
Other than that, most everything is [debuff] 1 on success. With 2 on fail and 3 on crit fail. On one hand, that means you never really need to progress past 1st level fear or dirge except to add extra damage. On the other, it's pretty pathetic that most spells don't meaningfully progress in ways other than damage as far as doing things on a success (or even failure half the time).
It's like all the interesting debuff riders that could have been passed around to other spells were instead concentrated on one spell and the damage was taken away as compensation in the mistaken assumption that all the extra offensive and defensive benefits weren't vastly more valuable than the chip damage a saved spell does.
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It sort of feels like Synesthesia was designed around the assumption that you mostly use big single target spells against bosses, who are more likely to succeed than not, so it was built with a powerful success effect that got better (though not numerically) on a failure.
But no other spell in the game is really designed like that.
I don't really think of Synesthesia as something you're forced to take, so much as why you pick the occult spell list in general. It is a really strong tool but I'm not sure the occult spell list feels unbalanced on the whole. Every spell list has a small number of really really good spells and some glaring weaknesses it doesn't cover at all.What are the really good unique Arcane Spells for combat?
Unique to Arcane? I will ignore that as it is unreasonable.
For level 1 Befuddle and Fear. Are both significant debuffs even though they don't last for long. Spending 2 of these to lower the defences of a Boss is a good deal.
The nearest actual equivalent to Synesthesia is Magical Fetters but it has incapactitation on it so it is not for taking down bosses.
Other options:
Slow which makes kiting trivial and is especially good against the 90% of bosses which have a lot of 2 and 3 actions powers that can't really be used any more.
Wall of Stone. Divide and Conquer
Buffs like Haste and True Strike. Typically you have to go to other casters to get numerical buffs.
Invisibility
It goes on. There are heaps of really good arcane spells
I don't really think of Synesthesia as something you're forced to take, so much as why you pick the occult spell list in general. It is a really strong tool but I'm not sure the occult spell list feels unbalanced on the whole. Every spell list has a small number of really really good spells and some glaring weaknesses it doesn't cover at all.What are the really good unique Arcane Spells for combat?Unique to Arcane? I will ignore that as it is unreasonable.
For level 1 Befuddle and Fear. Are both significant debuffs even though they don't last for long. Spending 2 of these to lower the defences of a Boss is a good deal.
The nearest actual equivalent to Synesthesia is Magical Fetters but it has incapactitation on it so it is not for taking down bosses.Other options:
Slow which makes kiting trivial and is especially good against the 90% of bosses which have a lot of 2 and 3 actions powers that can't really be used any more.Wall of Stone. Divide and Conquer
Buffs like Haste and True Strike. Typically you have to go to other casters to get numerical buffs.
Invisibility
It goes on. There are heaps of really good arcane spells
I asked for unique arcane spells, not spells on most lists that are effective. I guess even you can't think of any uniquely effective Arcane spells that match Synesthesia.
At least Gesalt listed Contingency.
If even you can't point out uniquely effective Arcane spells, means they likely don't exist.
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I don't really think of Synesthesia as something you're forced to take, so much as why you pick the occult spell list in general. It is a really strong tool but I'm not sure the occult spell list feels unbalanced on the whole. Every spell list has a small number of really really good spells and some glaring weaknesses it doesn't cover at all.What are the really good unique Arcane Spells for combat?Unique to Arcane? I will ignore that as it is unreasonable.
For level 1 Befuddle and Fear. Are both significant debuffs even though they don't last for long. Spending 2 of these to lower the defences of a Boss is a good deal.
The nearest actual equivalent to Synesthesia is Magical Fetters but it has incapactitation on it so it is not for taking down bosses.Other options:
Slow which makes kiting trivial and is especially good against the 90% of bosses which have a lot of 2 and 3 actions powers that can't really be used any more.Wall of Stone. Divide and Conquer
Buffs like Haste and True Strike. Typically you have to go to other casters to get numerical buffs.
Invisibility
It goes on. There are heaps of really good arcane spells
I asked for unique arcane spells, not spells on most lists that are effective. I guess even you can't think of any uniquely effective Arcane spells that match Synesthesia.
At least Gesalt listed Contingency.
If even you can't point out uniquely effective Arcane spells, means they likely don't exist.
I don't really care enough to dig through and try find one, because I think whether the spell is unique kind of misses the point. A druid and a bard could together cover most of what makes the arcane list good. But a bard on their own can't cast Wall of Stone and a Druid can't use Calm Emotions and needs to pay an 8th level class feat to use Illusory Object or Creature.
If we are talking about how the spell lists are balanced against each other, then you need to look at the entire kit.
I asked for unique arcane spells
To which I said no.
That is not a reasonable request because much of arcane is replicated everywhere. I'm not especially a fan of that decision. But there actually is very little pure arcane. Or pure any tradition for that matter. Most of it is shared.
I asked for unique arcane spellsTo which I said no.
That is not a reasonable request because much of arcane is replicated everywhere. I'm not especially a fan of that decision. But there actually is very little pure arcane. Or pure any tradition for that matter. Most of it is shared.
So then why is Occult so unique and powerful (to the point of having better, more exclusive spells) and Arcane is just plain bland and weak in comparison?
Seriously, who needs blasting when it's honestly one of the weakest effects for a spellcaster to invest in (damage is the martial's territory, not the spellcaster's, and AoE damage is no exception), and who needs utility in Arcane when Occult has it in spades on levels that Arcane can only match at-best and be outclassed at-worst? Heck, the only reason I'd rate Primal as a better list than Arcane is because they have access to Heal, one of the strongest spells in the game; they also get some of the buff spells of Arcane, and really, short of spells like Teleport or Slow, they have a good amount of the Arcane utility already.
Arcane having access to elemental spells is nowhere near as potent or equivalent to a spell like Synesthesia; Contingency is garbage (except for NPCs in APs, because they get to effectively "cheat" Contingency to always be useful in an advantageous circumstance, whereas players risk it either not going off at all, or it simply not being effective), and spells like Summon Archmage are way too late in the game to get something that's, again, nowhere near the power level of Synesthesia. Oh, I extend beneficial spells for up to 3 more rounds? Cool, doesn't matter when combats end after 5 rounds on average, and most in-combat spells last for 10 rounds, meaning the odds of spells running out were already practically non-existent. Oh, I do a bunch of damage? Yeah, I'd do more damage by inflicting a Clumsy 3 debuff for a round and following up with a True Target for my martials to ensure hits/encourage crits, compared to a whopping 10D6 damage with a save they are very likely to succeed against for half, not to mention any resistances/immunities they might have against my effect. What a garbage spell with a garbage effect that something that's half its level easily trumps, and that's not even factoring in True Target.
Bosses are not really an issue at high level. Synesthesia is an outlier, but Slow and Roaring Applause (and Fear, Hideous Laughter, True Target, Trip, etc...) are in general enough to trivialize/rip appart a boss fight. Bosses are dangerous at low level because you don't have these tools (or because they consume your highest level slots).
My experience has been that couple/trio of enemies have been as tough to deal with as boss fights (a couple of Brimoraks at level 4 and a trio of Lesser Deaths at level 17 should have TPKed the party if the GM had played them nasty).
Also, blasting works fine. I really don't get why some players feel it sucks. It's just not, obviously, a tool for bosses.
I asked for unique arcane spellsTo which I said no.
That is not a reasonable request because much of arcane is replicated everywhere. I'm not especially a fan of that decision. But there actually is very little pure arcane. Or pure any tradition for that matter. Most of it is shared.
I think you had no examples and did a cop out.
I've read your posts long enough to know if you know something, you'll share it. If you don't or can't, then you won't because you don't know the answer or it doesn't exist. I'm thinking there are no uniquely effective arcane spells you know off the top of your head or have used.
Thus my point is made.
Bosses are not really an issue at high level. Synesthesia is an outlier, but Slow and Roaring Applause (and Fear, Hideous Laughter, True Target, Trip, etc...) are in general enough to trivialize/rip appart a boss fight. Bosses are dangerous at low level because you don't have these tools (or because they consume your highest level slots).
My experience has been that couple/trio of enemies have been as tough to deal with as boss fights (a couple of Brimoraks at level 4 and a trio of Lesser Deaths at level 17 should have TPKed the party if the GM had played them nasty).Also, blasting works fine. I really don't get why some players feel it sucks. It's just not, obviously, a tool for bosses.
My reason for asking is I keep hearing the Arcane List is great and part of the power budget of Arcane Casters. I'm not buying it.
To me the lists are as follows:
1. Occult: Can fill most roles and has widest number of effective spells.
2. Primal: Can fill more roles than Arcane. One primal caster can provide healing, blasting, and most needed spells for party operations. Good 10th level spell selections too and very good effective sustain spells.
3. Arcane and Divine: Divine can provide the healing you need and you can survive with one Divine caster, but Arcane has far more blasting and utility with Divine having better buffs.
When I make characters, Arcane list is the one I tend to avoid the most due to a lack of overall breadth of abilities to fill roles and allow more diverse party builds.
I like to point out how on top of the wizard having a bad chassis, it also has one of the weakest spell lists to add insult to injury. Maybe it will get better as more spells are released, but Arcane needs a defining spell or two to make you go, "I really want a wizard around to cast this spell."
I think you had no examples and did a cop out.I asked for unique arcane spellsTo which I said no.
That is not a reasonable request because much of arcane is replicated everywhere. I'm not especially a fan of that decision. But there actually is very little pure arcane. Or pure any tradition for that matter. Most of it is shared.
No it wasn't a cop out. Those spells are all arcane spells. I'm saying the point that they be arcane only is rubbish. It is just not relevant.
I've read your posts long enough to know if you know something, you'll share it. If you don't or can't, then you won't because you don't know the answer or it doesn't exist. I'm thinking there are no uniquely effective arcane spells you know off the top of your head or have used.
I don't keep track of the Arcane only spells as there is no value to know that.
You are the first person that I can recall to rate the Arcane list in third place.
I think you had no examples and did a cop out.I asked for unique arcane spellsTo which I said no.
That is not a reasonable request because much of arcane is replicated everywhere. I'm not especially a fan of that decision. But there actually is very little pure arcane. Or pure any tradition for that matter. Most of it is shared.No it wasn't a cop out. Those spells are all arcane spells. I'm saying the point that they be arcane only is rubbish. It is just not relevant.
I've read your posts long enough to know if you know something, you'll share it. If you don't or can't, then you won't because you don't know the answer or it doesn't exist. I'm thinking there are no uniquely effective arcane spells you know off the top of your head or have used.I don't keep track of the Arcane only spells as there is no value to know that.
You are the first person that I can recall to rate the Arcane list in third place.
I would also rate Arcane at 3rd, simply because a Druid can replicate a good amount of buffs and blasting with strong healing sprinkled in, and a Bard can replicate all of the debuffs and utility with even more unique/potent buffs and debuffs.
At no point would I ever consider Arcane to be better than Primal from a conservative standpoint (limiting to common spells), or better than Occult from any standpoint.
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Bosses are not really an issue at high level. Synesthesia is an outlier, but Slow and Roaring Applause (and Fear, Hideous Laughter, True Target, Trip, etc...) are in general enough to trivialize/rip appart a boss fight. Bosses are dangerous at low level because you don't have these tools (or because they consume your highest level slots).
My experience has been that couple/trio of enemies have been as tough to deal with as boss fights (a couple of Brimoraks at level 4 and a trio of Lesser Deaths at level 17 should have TPKed the party if the GM had played them nasty).Also, blasting works fine. I really don't get why some players feel it sucks. It's just not, obviously, a tool for bosses.
Slow requires failing a Fortitude Save to get a meaningful debuff, which is unlikely against most every boss. Yes, losing an action for a round is significant, but not that strong in the long run, compared to Synesthesia, which is 1 round of serious pain and complications for the bad guy. Fear also isn't fool-proof since there are a fair amount of mindless creatures, and most of those other spells are Incapacitate or Occult-exclusive.
Bosses being dangerous at lower levels is also because of their power ratio, where a single crit can take out an entire PC, which is far less likely to happen at the higher levels due to them having less of a power ratio.
Blasting sucks because it's fodder control at-best and a waste of spell slots for a better spell at-worst. When Magic Missile is the best damaging single target spell in the game against bosses, you know it's a pretty terrible action to use against them, and honestly, buffing martials provides more group DPR than casting a spell like Polar Ray.
buffing martials provides more group DPR than casting a spell like Polar Ray.
I vastly disagree with that. If your martials can operate at full efficiency then the casters have not much to do to win the fight. But if your martials always operate at full efficiency then your GM should really start considering more variation in their fights. If fights never endanger the party besides "more damage and hit points" then you are playing at D&D5 (sorry, it was nasty). In PF2, monsters can deal with martials in ways that martials can't handle, and then you'll have to count on casters, either by providing the damage themselves (it's costly, I agree, but sometimes you have to) or by removing the effects that are hindering martials (sometimes it's possible, sometimes it's not).
Also, I find that buffs suck before high levels. You have extremely few valid buffs: Circle of Protection 4, Haste 7, True Target... and Bard's Compositions, obviously, but they don't take spell slots. Well, there are certainly a few more, but overall buffing martials is a waste of spell slots to me, you'll get way more damage out of a good blast (even against a single target).
Edit: I just compared Magic Missile 3 with Dangerous Sorcery to Haste on a melee Flurry Ranger (I think it's quite a good target for Haste). You need to wait for level 13 for the Ranger to finally break even after 2 rounds, way after Magic Missile's due date. Compared to Electric Arc, Haste is equivalent. There's just no point casting it unless you can prebuff.
buffing martials provides more group DPR than casting a spell like Polar Ray.I vastly disagree with that. If your martials can operate at full efficiency then the casters have not much to do to win the fight. But if your martials always operate at full efficiency then your GM should really start considering more variation in their fights. If fights never endanger the party besides "more damage and hit points" then you are playing at D&D5 (sorry, it was nasty). In PF2, monsters can deal with martials in ways that martials can't handle, and then you'll have to count on casters, either by providing the damage themselves (it's costly, I agree, but sometimes you have to) or by removing the effects that are hindering martials (sometimes it's possible, sometimes it's not).
Also, I find that buffs suck before high levels. You have extremely few valid buffs: Circle of Protection 4, Haste 7, True Target... and Bard's Compositions, obviously, but they don't take spell slots. Well, there are certainly a few more, but overall buffing martials is a waste of spell slots to me, you'll get way more damage out of a good blast (even against a single target).
Edit: I just compared Magic Missile 3 with Dangerous Sorcery to Haste on a melee Flurry Ranger (I think it's quite a good target for Haste). You need to wait for level 13 for the Ranger to finally break even after 2 rounds, way after Magic Missile's due date. Compared to Electric Arc, Haste is equivalent. There's just no point casting it unless you can prebuff.
The most useless encounter a caster can be is against Golems, and that's largely if they don't have the right spell(s) prepared. Even if they don't have the right "weakness" spells available, buffs still significantly contribute to the combat, and short of doing things like Aid to increase to-hit/AC, they aren't going to be doing much else.
Plenty of cases in our groups where HP damage isn't the biggest threat, though it still remains one against certain obvious foes. In fact, most of our character deaths are caused by non-HP related effects, such as by being Drained, or insta-kill effects.
Buffs are harder to justify in the lower levels because they lack the innate scaling debuffs have. Fear at 17th level is just as effective as Fear at 5th level in terms of relative potency, whereas Haste is massively increased by 13th level in terms of potential, before it being hard(er) to justify at 5th level. When the playing field is evened out, it's debateable enough that either one could be done at a given turn and it's fine. But honestly, Hasting a Fighter at 5th level is a better use of damage against a boss than Magic Missiles.
You won't get good damage out of blasting bosses, though, because of their higher AC and Saves (and lack of personal bonuses/targeted debuffs), whereas if you debuff them (or buff allies), you will get more out of the rounds those buffs and debuffs affect compared to just using Magic Missiles.
Magic Missiles with Dangerous Sorcery gives a slight damage boost, but it's non-standard and also giving an inherent edge to something that is already relatively weaker by comparison, so it's kind of disingenuous. And Electric Arc being better than Haste is hard to justify when restricted to a single target, meaning against bosses, it's probably not going to outperform a Fighter's secondary attack after having more actions for things like movement, Knockdown, Demoralize, etc.
And Electric Arc being better than Haste is hard to justify when restricted to a single target, meaning against bosses, it's probably not going to outperform a Fighter's secondary attack after having more actions for things like movement, Knockdown, Demoralize, etc.
And still it does twice more damage against a boss (half damage on miss is very useful) than the extra attack Haste provides to your Fighter. So you'll need 3 rounds of combat (past the round where you buff the Fighter, who generally has a better Initiative than a caster) to just break even. Considering the risk of Hasting the Fighter (as you now have all your eggs in the same basket and bosses are rarely stupid) and the spell slot cost, it's better to go for Electric Arc than Haste.