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The thing about past paizo Drow lore is that it kinda forces a monoculture over the Drow, by nature of having a singular point of origin, and in retrospect, that just doesn't work well for any group that is going to grow out into a complex, multi-faceted ancestry. That works for homebrew, and small game worlds, but not expansive, multi-author game worlds.
But if the story people have been told about an ancestry so far, proves to be coming from an in world perspective that is trying to control the narrative, then I think players can evolve their ideas of what dark elves can be along side new narratives that challenge the old. Clearly, many dark elves bought into the old narrative too and believe it, so you can still have dark elves that act as if that is their controlling narrative, but it doesn't need to be the way things inherently are. This also completely avoids the need for a "ret-con" other than to say, "that is not the whole story, it is a story that benefited an in world faction." I think Paizo is definitely capable of doing this in a fashion that keeps past stories relevant and yet moves things so far away from the OGL that they could push back on the larger fantasy depiction of elves generally (which they have been doing from the beginning of Golarion Lore), and especially "Dark" Elves, who can individually and collectively be problematic groups in their own right, but also dealing with problematic depictions in world from a malevolent force that wants them all to believe they are inherently evil and easily swayed by demon lords.
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In otherwords, give us a cosmic demon lord from somewhere deep in the abyss that connects to dark tapestry and has been trying to use "dark" elves for millennia. Then we can learn that their are protean forces involved in countering those plans and we could even have a whole new dark elf AP, where there are tons of very evil Drow, but it can be a dark elf story that every other gaming system can look at with envy because it is moving the whole concept past the problems that are complicating all stories involving them.
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The thing about past paizo Drow lore is that it kinda forces a monoculture over the Drow, by nature of having a singular point of origin, and in retrospect, that just doesn't work well for any group that is going to grow out into a complex, multi-faceted ancestry. That works for homebrew, and small game worlds, but not expansive, multi-author game worlds.
But if the story people have been told about an ancestry so far, proves to be coming from an in world perspective that is trying to control the narrative, then I think players can evolve their ideas of what dark elves can be along side new narratives that challenge the old. Clearly, many dark elves bought into the old narrative too and believe it, so you can still have dark elves that act as if that is their controlling narrative, but it doesn't need to be the way things inherently are. This also completely avoids the need for a "ret-con" other than to say, "that is not the whole story, it is a story that benefited an in world faction." I think Paizo is definitely capable of doing this in a fashion that keeps past stories relevant and yet moves things so far away from the OGL that they could push back on the larger fantasy depiction of elves generally (which they have been doing from the beginning of Golarion Lore), and especially "Dark" Elves, who can individually and collectively be problematic groups in their own right, but also dealing with problematic depictions in world from a malevolent force that wants them all to believe they are inherently evil and easily swayed by demon lords.
The thing is that this sort of thing both has already been done by other ancestries from previous editions, as well as has been done in the real world, with the most common example being religion, due to how many different ideals/beliefs and customs have spawned just from a basic idea of "How are we here?" The idea that Drow are monocultured is more of a limitation of creative writing (or even a framing of writing, since we could very well not be shown the whole picture) than it is a bad starting point. Plenty of fiction (and heck, even IRL) has universal origins that instead spark out into branching beliefs or societies, and at best we can say that we simply don't know all of the Drow beliefs and societies.
If anything, I would expect that a large amount of Drow societies of old are "evolving" in respect with dealings of the surface world (that is, their previous aspects are being thrown to the wayside for a more optimized culture that is trying to do away with it as a means of growing into something much greater), and I would imagine some Drow societies still adhere to the old ways, cruel as they appear to be, and would still find the surface worlders as enemies that threaten their lands. Now, with that, we have a multi-faceted ancestry that can function in a multitude of ways. All we need to do is change the name, and boom, it's a done deal.
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I for one would love it if drow got the same treatment as goblins and gnolls. That is, classical evil drow are acknowledged as existing within the setting, and then also expanded upon with other groups of drow with radically different cultural leanings.
I think that would be best as those who want simple evil adversaries for their games can have them, and those who want a deeper more nuanced ancestry can have it as well.
It'd be even better to take a mix of ideas from this thread and apply them to some groups of drow but not others, while making yet others into rumors. Some could be demon worshippers, others tainted by Rovogog, yet others just defending their Darklands home from intruders, while still others actively fighting to hold back some great evil and keep it from spilling out into the world. This would help divorce the social ickiness a lot of people are uncomfortable with from "being drow" and suppor their being a frightfully mysterious entity of the Darklands.
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The thing is that this sort of thing both has already been done by other ancestries from previous editions, as well as has been done in the real world, with the most common example being religion, due to how many different ideals/beliefs and customs have spawned just from a basic idea of "How are we here?"
The larger issue is that the Drow lore needs to change to get away from the OLG though. So sticking with the old but trying to evolve it is treading on difficult IP ground, where as, pointing out how that is not how it has ever been on Golarion, although some people believed it to be true, is a new take that can allow "Dark Elves" to continue to be major plot characters in future APs without fear.
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I for one would love it if drow got the same treatment as goblins and gnolls. That is, classical evil drow are acknowledged as existing within the setting, and then also expanded upon with other groups of drow with radically different cultural leanings.
I think that would be best as those who want simple evil adversaries for their games can have them, and those who want a deeper more nuanced ancestry can have it as well.
It'd be even better to take a mix of ideas from this thread and apply them to some groups of drow but not others, while making yet others into rumors. Some could be demon worshippers, others tainted by Rovogog, yet others just defending their Darklands home from intruders, while still others actively fighting to hold back some great evil and keep it from spilling out into the world. This would help divorce the social ickiness a lot of people are uncomfortable with from "being drow" and suppor their being a frightfully mysterious entity of the Darklands.
I like the all of the above tactic.
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I think if you wanna use default DND drow you certainly can in your own games. Doesn't mean Paizo has to keep them exactly the same as an unrelated different game does.
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I think if you wanna use default DND drow you certainly can in your own games. Doesn't mean Paizo has to keep them exactly the same as an unrelated different game does.
I do agree that a departure from D&D of some kind is a good idea, both in terms of legal strategy and as a marketing opportunity to expand the lore.
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I want a city in the Mawangi Expanse populated by Drow who worship Grandmother Spider. Their best friends are Anadi, whom they see as almost divine, because they are closer to perfection than the Drow. Some where in the city, a group of Drow priests and Wizards are trying to create a "more perfect Drow", the result of which are Driders, who are willing volunteers going through the process. The Anadi generally think the Drow are kind of weird, but since they treat each other with respect and dignity, and help each other, they all get along.
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The larger issue is that the Drow lore needs to change to get away from the OLG though. So sticking with the old but trying to evolve it is treading on difficult IP ground, where as, pointing out how that is not how it has ever been on Golarion, although some people believed it to be true, is a new take that can allow "Dark Elves" to continue to be major plot characters in future APs without fear.
The thing is that this sort of thing both has already been done by other ancestries from previous editions, as well as has been done in the real world, with the most common example being religion, due to how many different ideals/beliefs and customs have spawned just from a basic idea of "How are we here?"
I'm speaking from a meta standpoint. Obviously, Paizo has to change/retcon things because OGL complications, but that doesn't mean the core concept of "Some evil, some good, some neutral, etc." can't exist in the revised narrative. (And before it's brought up, yes, I know we're doing away with alignment, but am bringing it up as an example of diverse culturalism.)
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TMS said in an earlier post that the customer base for PF2e was not 'mature enough' to handle the previous lore for Drow. That, I think, is where the gatekeeping started.
Frankly that's off topic though.
Personally, I think 'many drow are part of [insert name for culture of revised depicition of 'evil'] but like any ancestry, every drow is an individual; some drow live elsewhere in Golarian as isolated individuals, adapting to culture outside of the Darklands. Elsewhere, others within the Darkland defy or rebel against [culture], seeking to shift their people away from...' etc, etc.
Acknowledge that Drow fundamentally are a people, explore *why* many drow are like they were in the Darklands, revise out the problematic crap parts, and go from there.
I would probably keep Drow mainly evil in any setting I would run though use your approach. Most are evil though not all. So thru can be used as Heroes or Villains . Or both.
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Locked to deal with flags
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Removed a bunch of off topic posts and quotes. Threads like this get contentious. Please be respectful even in disagreements. As for the moderation: I addressed it in a different thread but I'll paraphrase here: Paizo seeks to to be neutral in its moderation. Some will say thats not enough. Some will say its too much. Regardless, that is the decision. I can be reached at the Community email if you have any other questions.
I'm speaking from a meta standpoint. Obviously, Paizo has to change/retcon things because OGL complications, but that doesn't mean the core concept of "Some evil, some good, some neutral, etc." can't exist in the revised narrative. (And before it's brought up, yes, I know we're doing away with alignment, but am bringing it up as an example of diverse culturalism.)The larger issue is that the Drow lore needs to change to get away from the OLG though. So sticking with the old but trying to evolve it is treading on difficult IP ground, where as, pointing out how that is not how it has ever been on Golarion, although some people believed it to be true, is a new take that can allow "Dark Elves" to continue to be major plot characters in future APs without fear.
The thing is that this sort of thing both has already been done by other ancestries from previous editions, as well as has been done in the real world, with the most common example being religion, due to how many different ideals/beliefs and customs have spawned just from a basic idea of "How are we here?"
It is unlikely that any attempt to change “dark” elves (whatever names the get) will be to keep them monolithic, but just slightly different. It should be changes that make for stories the creative development team want to tell with dark lands dwelling elves.
I think folks hoping for the all “dark” elves to stay the same as before, but with minor cosmetic changes to “sand off the ogl content” are likely to be highly disappointed. If the changes to the the baseline of what Drow are in Golarion isn’t different enough from the ogl/D&D core, the end result will likely be just to use them less and less in the published material.
Like the only way I see spidery, demon worshiping Drow coming back in published material is if it is super clear that this is one splinter sect of Drow, and prolly wven then it would be most likely in parody.
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I sincerely hope they change the Drow in a way that makes them interesting to me. Since all previous versions of Drow in all games have left me kind of cold (though I did kind of like the 13th age take on them as "mopey emo elves.")
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“Elves whose natural adaptive abilities have gone strange when exposed to the energies of the Darklands” is already an incredibly promising seed, as is “we revere Proteans, one of the most unique categories of outsider/immortal in Pathfinder.” Golarion Drow have some awesome stuff to hang their hat on, and a writing team whose output I’ve loved for the past four years behind them. All of that feels compelling, distinct, and original to Golarion as a setting - it excites me as a foundation for future stories.
Anyone holding out hope to see “the way the other company does it, but from these guys” is going to have a bad time, as is anyone who’s decided to blame OGL-caused problems on a hypothetical oversensitive audience.
If you like the books, buy em; if you don’t, don’t. It’s as simple as that.
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Wotc didn’t exactly handle the newly redeemed Drow well imo. Character that has been evil on the books like Drizzt evil brother and Jarlaxle suddenly went from being evil. To good guys almost overnight simply because W Tc wanted to show Drow less evil.
Nothing wrong with that at least use new characters. Existing Characters that have always been evil suddenly having moral epiphanies comes off as bad writing imo.
As long as we get a mix of evil, good and neutral elves is all I ask. Not the entire Drow populace suddenly being good aligned.
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I think moving them out of the Darklands would probably be a big enough change, although one that for story reasons would require quite a bit of explanation. With that I can think of several major directions to take them (cough Pirate Drow cough)
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Wotc didn’t exactly handle the newly redeemed Drow well imo. Character that has been evil on the books like Drizzt evil brother and Jarlaxle suddenly went from being evil. To good guys almost overnight simply because W Tc wanted to show Drow less evil.
Nothing wrong with that at least use new characters. Existing Characters that have always been evil suddenly having moral epiphanies comes off as bad writing imo.
As long as we get a mix of evil, good and neutral elves is all I ask. Not the entire Drow populace suddenly being good aligned.
I don't know that this forum is the best place for it, but I will say: Jarlaxle was an outcast from his society from birth, has always had a funny fondness for Drizzt, and spent the entire Sellswords trilogy trying to convince Artemis Entreri to loosen up while they played at being heroes together. He was never a cut-and-dry Evil bastard; always selfish and often profit-motivated, but he's been a complicated mercenary for 20+ years of novels. This wasn't a sudden 5e turn.
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True though Jarlaxle not so much evil more Lawful Greedy lol.
Many older characters just seemed to have suddenly shed their evil personalities in the Salvatore novels.
I think most people just see duergar as the dwarf drow, while svirfneblin I don't rhink are actually evil. But yeah, it's probably because they're much less popular.
(Dero, meanwhile, have bonus problems!)
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"Dvergar" come from Norse myth.
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... It occurs to me now that Trixleby's question was probably OGL related, in which case kefiu absolutely has the right of it, though the specific incarnation of 'grey evil dwarf who can grow large with magic and have a special resistance to certain types of mental magics' might need a little diversifying in their portfolio to keep the job.
In this context, svirfneblin also originates in Scandinavian folklore, but getting more details that aren't related to their D&D incarnation is challenging enough.
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I think most people just see duergar as the dwarf drow, while svirfneblin I don't rhink are actually evil. But yeah, it's probably because they're much less popular.
(Dero, meanwhile, have bonus problems!)
Elves seem more popular / fascinating than Dwarves or Gnomes. I think it's just the same phenomenon, maybe amplified, that is at work there.
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I want a city in the Mawangi Expanse populated by Drow who worship Grandmother Spider. Their best friends are Anadi, whom they see as almost divine, because they are closer to perfection than the Drow. Some where in the city, a group of Drow priests and Wizards are trying to create a "more perfect Drow", the result of which are Driders, who are willing volunteers going through the process. The Anadi generally think the Drow are kind of weird, but since they treat each other with respect and dignity, and help each other, they all get along.
In my campaign, Gandmother Spider is actually the drow's "desna"; she's the fun goddess that teaches the importance of community and shows that even overwhelmingly powerful foes can be felled. While the elves like desna because shes free spirited and pretty and represents the boundless sky and the stars from which the elves came; the drow like grandmother spider because she shows the drow how to beat the big, nasty beasties in the Darklands with trickery. Compared to eldritch horrors in the darklands, the drow are on the bottom of the food chain, so who better to worship than the goddess who freed herself from more powerful gods through the use of cunning?
Do Duergar and Snifveblin have the same problems as Drow? Does nobody discuss them because they are less popular?
Duergar already are similar enough to their folklore inspiration that not much change is needed.
Deep Gnomes, or at least that name, would probably be an issue though.
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There aren't TOO many uses of the terms Deep Gnome or Svirfneblin. Paizo could her rid of the terms entirely and it'd affect like 4 paragraphs in all of PF2.
Though, I wish we'd get more Lore. Svirfneblins were one of my favorite 3.5 races and I'd love to see how Paizo differentiates then going forward.
"Dvergar" come from Norse myth.
Unfortunately, it remains unclear whether this will satisfy Hasbro's lawyers. The reason they probably would not raise a fuss about Duergar is that these aren't a people that were really a moneymaker for them, unlike Drow.
Though I think you could just sweep the Svirfneblin/Deep Gnomes under the "Umbral Gnome" heritage, since "you found a gnome living there" shouldn't be all that surprising basically anywhere short of the Negative Energy Plane.
"Dvergar" come from Norse myth.Unfortunately, it remains unclear whether this will satisfy Hasbro's lawyers. The reason they probably would not raise a fuss about Duergar is that these aren't a people that were really a moneymaker for them, unlike Drow.
Though I think you could just sweep the Svirfneblin/Deep Gnomes under the "Umbral Gnome" heritage, since "you found a gnome living there" shouldn't be all that surprising basically anywhere short of the Negative Energy Plane.
Of most anybody, I'd expect Gnomes in the top tier of who would reside on the Negative Energy Plane. They're curiosity takes them anywhere and their magical nature could adapt them to the environment. Heck, they might come pre-bleached, gaining color being sign of losing one's "home-feels" or something.
---As for Deep Gnomes, what made them special is the suite of powers that let them contend (albeit stealthily) in the harsh Underdark alongside the other overpowered races. Much of that was lost in transition, along with what remnants of culture from Forgotten Realms (et al), so I'm not seeing anything worth clinging on to that couldn't be as easily replicated with Umbral Gnomes and a cultural boost/revision if needed.
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Of most anybody, I'd expect Gnomes in the top tier of who would reside on the Negative Energy Plane. They're curiosity takes them anywhere and their magical nature could adapt them to the environment. Heck, they might come pre-bleached, gaining color being sign of losing one's "home-feels" or something.
Sure, Gnomes will attempt to set up a home in the Negative Energy Plane more than anybody else who is neither undead nor native to that place. But in this case it's their success that is surprising since that's the part of reality most hostile to anybody living there.
Many gnomes have tried and not succeeded, in other words.
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I guess I asked because I have special interest in Darklands (Underdark) ancestries. I, personally, absolutely love Dark Iron Dwarves in World of Warcraft, and very much enjoy Duergar. I also think Gnomes are super cool in PF2E and have recently fell in love with creating gnome characters and I think that while I don't know a lot about the gnomes whose names I can't spell who live underground, I hope they don't go away so I can explore more cool characters :)
Also yes I like Drow too. Pretty much everything in the Underdark (Darklands). Although a big part of me is sad we don't have things like Beholders, Illithids (mindflayers) Umberhulks and all that cool underground stuff because copyright.
Wouldn't it be neat to play 100% of all the Underdark in TTRPG with the PF2E ruleset and monster building rules?
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"Dvergar" come from Norse myth.Unfortunately, it remains unclear whether this will satisfy Hasbro's lawyers. The reason they probably would not raise a fuss about Duergar is that these aren't a people that were really a moneymaker for them, unlike Drow.
Though I think you could just sweep the Svirfneblin/Deep Gnomes under the "Umbral Gnome" heritage, since "you found a gnome living there" shouldn't be all that surprising basically anywhere short of the Negative Energy Plane.
Whether from a connection to dark or shadowy fey, from the underground deep gnomes also known as svirfneblin, or another source, you can see in complete darkness. You gain darkvision.
Devs way ahead of ya. Svirfneblin are already considered a subset of Umbral Gnomes.
Yeah, so the Deep Gnomes are just a subset of one heritage of Gnomes as a whole.
I don't see why the Duergar couldn't be likewise a Dwarf heritage and I've long been mystified as to why there's so much resistance to making Drow an elf heritage.