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I've been thinking about this for days, but it seems like no matter what i try feint just seems pointless without sneak attack. Am i wrong in this assumption?
Theres a combo with the feats blistering feint and planar focus that let you deal decent amounts of fire damage with each check. make sure to use a flaming battle poi for even more fire
Feinting can also help you hit those with a high AC due to their DEX bonus. So, it is not totally worthless without sneak attack. I could see someone that fights a lot of high DEX opponents taking improved feint and a few other feint related feats. Probably would not focus too heavily on it without sneak attack.
Nah, you're entirely right. The AC penalty alone is not worth the feat and action cost, so you need something that notably profits from the enemy being denied their dex bonus to AC (read: Sneak Attack) to make ith worthwhile.
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There is at least one case where feinting can possibly be useful even if you can’t sneak attack: Greater Feint.
It’s a debuff that helps anyone in your party making attack rolls. The feat tax is significant, so it’s something you really need to discuss with your fellow players ahead of time to make sure it will be worth it. Even then, most builds can find better things to do with their feats. The only two characters I ever saw using feint in this way were a support cleric and a healing paladin. The paladin was better (thanks to already being basically pure Charisma).
Feinting can also help you hit those with a high AC due to their DEX bonus. So, it is not totally worthless without sneak attack. I could see someone that fights a lot of high DEX opponents taking improved feint and a few other feint related feats. Probably would not focus too heavily on it without sneak attack.
to add. when a target is denied his dex to ac bonus it is also denied any dodge bonus to ac. this can be a lot depending on the build.
I had a halfling monk with crane style who was focused on that doge bonus. it can easily rack over +10 ac just from the dodge bonuses alone:
Aldori Caution trait (+1)
Cautious Fighter feat (+2)
fighting defensively + acrobatic ranks (+3) (with crane riptoste only -1 to attacks)
crane style(+1)
Dodge feat (+1) (required for the style)
crane wing vs melee (+4)
=+12 and im sure im forgetting something
this is not including his dex to ac bonus.
if some1 were to successfully feint against him his ac would drop by over 17 points.
now im not saying building a 'no sneak attack feint master' just in case you meet a 'dodge master' is worth it. but making sure you don't suck at feinting shouldn't be too much of a problem and it's a good thing to consider in case you do meet such a problematic enemy. (that halfling was having over 40 ac at around level 7, with other monks defensive abilities to boot. gm had a problem hitting him until he thought of feints)
now im not saying building a 'no sneak attack feint master' just in case you meet a 'dodge master' is worth it. but making sure you don't suck at feinting shouldn't be too much of a problem and it's a good thing to consider in case you do meet such a problematic enemy.
I'd say it is too much of a problem.
If you want the bare minimum you need Combat Expertise (feinting isn't a maneuver so can't use Dirty Fighting) and then Improved Feint, so even a martial that is already built for a maneuver like Dirty Tricks may not find it easy to pick up Improved Feint.
And if you're not, that's two entire feats for a backup tactic. I'm not wasting two feats for that on a class without bonus feats, and even with bonus feats I presumably have much better options.
If you build for feint, you specialize hard.
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Non-SA feint builds exist. But you generally need something in addition to just the accuracy increase to make it worthwhile. Building around Improved Feint Partner to hand out AoOs to your party is very effective, and a solo combatant can build for Feint and Bash (Weapon Trick) while also dabbling in Betraying Blow. Vigilante is pretty good at the latter.
The issue is of course that some enemies are immune and others have highly inflated Sense Motive scores relative to their CR because the skill is not treated as a combat aspect like AC is. So you want to be able to contribute (meaningfully) even if this, your main tactic, isn't effective.
Honestly, unless you have something with built-in Feint synergy, like a Rostland Bravo (Feint as a swift action) or an Order of the Blossom Cavalier with a Knave Standard (massive bonus to Bluff, two sources of Sneak Attack), it's probably too prohibitive in terms of feats.
There are some exceptions, if you're willing to give up full attack as your default mode of combat. Cloak and Dagger Style, for example, requires Vital Strike and culminates with a free action enhanced Dirty Trick against foes who are denied their Dexterity bonus. That's obviously an end-stage concept, though (requires BAB +16).
now im not saying building a 'no sneak attack feint master' just in case you meet a 'dodge master' is worth it. but making sure you don't suck at feinting shouldn't be too much of a problem and it's a good thing to consider in case you do meet such a problematic enemy.I'd say it is too much of a problem.
If you want the bare minimum you need Combat Expertise (feinting isn't a maneuver so can't use Dirty Fighting) and then Improved Feint, so even a martial that is already built for a maneuver like Dirty Tricks may not find it easy to pick up Improved Feint.
And if you're not, that's two entire feats for a backup tactic. I'm not wasting two feats for that on a class without bonus feats, and even with bonus feats I presumably have much better options.If you build for feint, you specialize hard.
as you said. feint isn't a maneuver, so why do you need the improved feint feat? no aoo or whatever are provoked. yes. it takes a standard action without it, but im talking about an enemy you would most likely miss if you don't feint to drop his ac by 17~ points. so you use a round to get a major debuff for his ac. so what? i find it better then flailing at the air for 2 rounds.
you waste no feat. and the dc will tend to be a lot lower then the mob's high dex + dodge ac mode.
the question was 'is it still useful even without sneak attack?'. my answer -sometimes it is. like a lot of things in pathfinder it's an option. and keeping options open leave your arsenal of tricks ready for surprises.
Any reason to specialize in feint? No… without sneak attack or another spammable ability that relies on your target being denied their dexterity, its not worth specializing in… it is however worth using and putting a mild investment in for martial characters with relatively low attack bonuses.
I have to agree with Chell Raighn on this. If you are going to specialize in something there should be a decent payout for your investment. But that does not mean that someone who did not specialize in the tactic should ignore it.
I could see someone focusing on vital strike also focusing on feinting.
When feats like Shatter Defenses exist, there is no real good reason to be good at feinting, imo. The Action Economy is free and the Feat list is minimal.
When feats like Shatter Defenses exist, there is no real good reason to be good at feinting, imo. The Action Economy is free and the Feat list is minimal.
Not every build can justify the feat cost of Dazzling Display + Shatter Defenses… a few skill ranks in Bluff is easier to work into a build than a couple feats… that said… Shatter Defenses might be a better choice than specifically specializing in Feint for abilities like Sneak Attack… however, Uncanny Dodge would negate Shatter Defenses, while Feint could still function.
Flat-footed = Denied Dexterity
Denied Dexterity =/= Flat-footed
When feats like Shatter Defenses exist, there is no real good reason to be good at feinting, imo. The Action Economy is free and the Feat list is minimal.Not every build can justify the feat cost of Dazzling Display + Shatter Defenses… a few skill ranks in Bluff is easier to work into a build than a couple feats… that said… Shatter Defenses might be a better choice than specifically specializing in Feint for abilities like Sneak Attack… however, Uncanny Dodge would negate Shatter Defenses, while Feint could still function.
Flat-footed = Denied Dexterity
Denied Dexterity =/= Flat-footed
If you can justify getting Combat Expertise + Improved/Greater Feint, then you can certainly justify getting Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, and Shatter Defenses. Shatter Defenses allows for Full Attacks while Feint doesn't. It's going to cost you a Move Action every time you Feint. You could get Moonlight Stalker Feint to turn it into a Swift Action, but the pre-req list is substantially higher.
Shatter Defenses is just far superior in almost every way you want to slice it compared to Feinting, both Action Economy-wise and Feat Cost-wise. But, you should always have multiple paths to SnAing, you can't expect every single enemy to be affected by Shatter Defenses (but a significant majority of creatures/monsters are). That's why you carry a Wand of Greater Invisibility for denying Dex vs enemies immune to Shatter Defenses.
Coming across creatures with Uncanny Dodge is pretty rare anyway. Just go hit something else and let your party kill it. You'd have to be doing a Barbarian Lands campaign of some kind, or taking on a Rogue's Guild to see a lot of things with Uncanny Dodge. Then, sure, Feint would be worth it.
Generally speaking though, Shatter Defenses > Feint.
as you said. feint isn't a maneuver, so why do you need the improved feint feat? no aoo or whatever are provoked. yes. it takes a standard action without it, but im talking about an enemy you would most likely miss if you don't feint to drop his ac by 17~ points. so you use a round to get a major debuff for his ac. so what? i find it better then flailing at the air for 2 rounds.
you waste no feat. and the dc will tend to be a lot lower then the mob's high dex + dodge ac mode.
the question was 'is it still useful even without sneak attack?'. my answer -sometimes it is. like a lot of things in pathfinder it's an option. and keeping options open leave your arsenal of tricks ready for surprises.
Oh. I guess we have different definitions of "don't suck at feinting", then. My definition definitely includes not spending a standard action to have less of a 50% shot at success, which is something that is "too much of a problem" for most characters.
@Mark Hoover 330
The reality is the other way around. Here's a chart over feint DCs (provided by willuwontu) which showcases a big issue with feint builds. The DC.
The median CR8 monster has a feint DC of 28.
The DC for demoralize is much more easily overcome because there's a steady supply of demoralize-specific items, class features, feats, and racial traits so that you can boost your skill bonus way beyond what the feint build is capable of.
If you look at bluff-related spells, items, or even class features they usually restrict it to just social aspects of bluff.
When feats like Shatter Defenses exist, there is no real good reason to be good at feinting, imo. The Action Economy is free and the Feat list is minimal.Not every build can justify the feat cost of Dazzling Display + Shatter Defenses… a few skill ranks in Bluff is easier to work into a build than a couple feats… that said… Shatter Defenses might be a better choice than specifically specializing in Feint for abilities like Sneak Attack… however, Uncanny Dodge would negate Shatter Defenses, while Feint could still function.
Flat-footed = Denied Dexterity
Denied Dexterity =/= Flat-footedIf you can justify getting Combat Expertise + Improved/Greater Feint, then you can certainly justify getting Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display, and Shatter Defenses. Shatter Defenses allows for Full Attacks while Feint doesn't. It's going to cost you a Move Action every time you Feint. You could get Moonlight Stalker Feint to turn it into a Swift Action, but the pre-req list is substantially higher.
Shatter Defenses is just far superior in almost every way you want to slice it compared to Feinting, both Action Economy-wise and Feat Cost-wise. But, you should always have multiple paths to SnAing, you can't expect every single enemy to be affected by Shatter Defenses (but a significant majority of creatures/monsters are). That's why you carry a Wand of Greater Invisibility for denying Dex vs enemies immune to Shatter Defenses.
Coming across creatures with Uncanny Dodge is pretty rare anyway. Just go hit something else and let your party kill it. You'd have to be doing a Barbarian Lands campaign of some kind, or taking on a Rogue's Guild to see a lot of things with Uncanny Dodge. Then, sure, Feint would be worth it.
Generally speaking though, Shatter Defenses > Feint.
I’m not disagreeing that if you would have specialized in feint your feats would be better spent on Shattered Defense. My main point was that feint is still useful for builds that can’t spare the feats and are just doing it to improve their ability to hit. Investing in feats to feint is generally a bad idea, unless you have a very specific build that requires feints (a couple combat style chains only work with feint, and can be very good builds if done right).
This is the kind of Shattered Defenses Build nonsense I'm talking about. Tbh, this is one of the scariest, pivotal Slayer builds I've ever come up with.
Not every enemy is going to be affected by fear, but for those that cannot be feared, you can use invisibility via Ring of Invis or a wand of Greater Invis.
Not trying to argue your points RK, but I just wanted to offer:
Shatter Defenses relies on Intimidate to Demoralize. This is a check of 10 + the foe's HD + their Wis modifier. Creatures smaller than their opponents receive a -4 penalty.
Improved Feint relies on a Bluff check against a DC of 10 + your opponent's BAB + Wis modifier unless they're trained in Sense motive, and then use 10 +Sense Motive bonus if higher. There is no modifier for size difference.
Now, a Small sized PC with a 3/4 BAB needs to be L8 before they can get to Shatter Defenses. By this point, if they've maxed their ranks in Intimidate and have it as a Class skill, that's Intimidate +11 as a base, further modified by their Cha bonus, feats, items and so on.
Many CR8 monsters have 11-12 HD and can be Large or larger. An 11HD, Large sized foe has a base DC of 21, modified by their Wis modifier, feats, immunity to Fear effects and so on. The PC also suffers a -4 penalty to their roll. Even if this PC uses a Size altering Transmutation effect, the Size penalty will still be there.
Many CR8 monsters have 3/4 BAB and Size would have no effect on a Bluff check. The Small sized PC would start with a +11 if they maxed their ranks in Bluff and had it as a Class skill as a starting point. Their foe's DC would have a starting point of 16, modified by their Wis modifier or their Sense Motive skill bonus if higher.
Last but not least, there's one other thing that keeps a Feint build from being great, IMO: you need Cha for Bluff, Int for Combat Expertise, and then you need an attack stat depending on your favored method, Dex or Str.
In Shatter Defenses you need only your attack stat and Cha. With certain other feats, you could roll all of this under Str. Ok, I'm done.
Check this build out one post up, it's pretty damn good tbh.
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The reality is the other way around. Here's a chart over feint DCs (provided by willuwontu) which showcases a big issue with feint builds. The DC.
The median CR8 monster has a feint DC of 28.
While I definitely appreciate that chart, I see one problem with the chart and one problem with your analysis.
Chart: It looks like willuwontu derived the mean and median by figuring out the DC for all the monsters in the Bestiaries. Which means mostly non-humanoids, which means a +4 or +8 to the DC depending on intelligence. That's going to skew the numbers. It will of course vary by campaign but in most Paizo-published adventures you run into a lot of humanoids with class levels who don't get that bonus.
Analysis: Even using the chart's median, a DC 28 for a level 8 character isn't actually that hard for a character built to feint.
+8 - 8 ranks in Bluff
+3 - class skill
+5 - mulberry pentacle ioun stone (10,000 gp)
+3 - skill focus
+X - Charisma modifier
+Y - Any other buffs heroism, deceptive weapon, etc.
That's a minimum of +19 assuming a Cha modifier of 0, no active spells, no trait bonus, no racial bonus, etc. In practice, it will probably be closer to +24 or more.
Having said that, it is probably easier to get a high enough intimidate bonus (anyone got a chart for that?) to trigger Shatter Defenses. And intimidate is guaranteed negatives from the shaken condition while even Greater Feint may do nothing if the target turns out to not have a high Dex.
Move action intimidate (class ability), which triggers
Swift action attack (Hurtful feat), which triggers
Shatter Defenses, which allows
Standard action Deadly Stroke.
1 round and the target is taking Con bleed.
If this character had ever gotten to 18th level Intimidate would have become a free action. Which would allow moving up and could do this to someone even if they didn't start the round in melee range.
@Belafon
Yes, it is based on the monsters in the Bestiaries (which includes a minority of humanoids). Both Mark Hoover and I specified monsters so that is indeed what we focused on.
If you will face off against primarily humanoids then that changes a lot of the core assumptions not just about feint but also about other statistics such as nonexistent touch AC, wildly scaling CMD, and inflated ability scores.
Analysis: Even using the chart's median, a DC 28 for a level 8 character isn't actually that hard for a character built to feint.
I agree with that. But I do not think that spending one third of your entire wealth on a skill-boosting item is a fair assumption to make. And spending an additional feat on Skill Focus is a much bigger investment than picking a character/racial trait.
From personal experience, at lv 8 I would expect the following.
11 (class+ranks) + 2 (Cracked Magenta Prism) +2 (Trait) +2 (racial trait) +2 (misc) +0-4 (Cha)
= 19+Cha
The issue isn't that the DC is insurmountable. The issue is that you generally have just one attempt per round, must invest a lot of resources to get good at feinting, in addition to spending a lot of resources to make the action economy not awful.
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It looks like willuwontu derived the mean and median by figuring out the DC for all the monsters in the Bestiaries. Which means mostly non-humanoids, which means a +4 or +8 to the DC depending on intelligence. That's going to skew the numbers.
The thing for non-humanoids and animal intelligence isn't a bonus to the DC, but rather a penalty on the roll. It's not included in the table (apart from the percentile given in the second column), which means that the actual chance to successfully faint is even lower than what the table suggests.
I don't know where those numbers come from exactly, but my spreadsheet with the data from these links has slightly higher numbers not only for the monsters (median of 32 for CR 8), but also for the NPC sheets, which has 60% humanoids (median of 30 for CR 8).
Even filtering for for humanoid foes only doesn't change much, with the DCs for CR 8 being 30 (monsters) and 29 (NPCs).
Jeez, that's way worse than I thought. Thanks, I hate it.
The chart I linked actually took the penalty into account (as a bonus to the enemy DC), so I'm actually a bit surprised at your high values. If that's a 32 before the -4 penalty that's about 8 higher than I expected.
Could the values have been mixed up to add both Sense Motive and BAB+WIS instead of using the higher of the two, +10?
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It looks like willuwontu derived the mean and median by figuring out the DC for all the monsters in the Bestiaries. Which means mostly non-humanoids, which means a +4 or +8 to the DC depending on intelligence. That's going to skew the numbers.The thing for non-humanoids and animal intelligence isn't a bonus to the DC, but rather a penalty on the roll. It's not included in the table (apart from the percentile given in the second column), which means that the actual chance to successfully faint is even lower than what the table suggests.
We'd have to ask willuwontu, but I think that chart does include the penalties. I started making my own analysis just of CR8. Haven't gotten through it yet, there are 174 CR8 monsters listed in the AoN database, but my numbers (including the modifier) seem to be in line with what is listed.
Calling it a "bonus to DC" or a "penalty to the roll" is irrelevant in this particular case. Though it is important to know if the DC willuwontu listed includes the modifier.
Could the values have been mixed up to add both Sense Motive and BAB+WIS instead of using the higher of the two, +10?
Nah, I'm just stupid... I used the Wis score rather than mod. Sorry about that, just ignore my last post.
Ah, that would do it.
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It would be a bit sad to end the feint thread with two intimidate builds and not a single feint build... so here's an Improved Feint Partner build.
Dueling Cloak Adept
+1 Trait
Warrior Poet Samurai 1
1 Combat Reflexes, Weapon Finesse (B), Kitsune's Mystique: Improved Feint (B)
Red Tongue Skald 7
2
3 Equipment Trick: Cloak
4 +1 Rage Power
5 +1 Feat
6
7 Feint Partner, +1 Rage Power
8 Rogue Talent: Combat Trick: Improved Feint Partner, Duplicitous Rhetoric
***
Give out Improved Feint Partner as part of your Inspired Rage with Duplicitous Rhetoric (or simply rely on the Shared Training spell) and AoE feint all enemies that can see you with Equipment Trick. Every enemy successfully feinted against provokes an AoO from your allies and grants you a +1 Dodge bonus to AC.