A player wants to create a character with four arms, fighter with tower prof and some rogue to get greater evasion.....this is awesome buuuuut, he argues this would give him 100% concealment.....which is fine, buuuuuut, he says that the concealment would negate AoE damage and I need another perspective to explain it would not.
How would you put it to him?
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Relevant base rules: Source
Ultimate Equipment pg. 9, PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 151
Cost 30 gp Weight 45 lbs.
Armor Bonus +4; Max Dex Bonus +2; Armor Check Penalty -10
Arcane Spell Failure Chance 50%; Speed —/—
Description
This massive wooden shield is nearly as tall as its user. In most situations, it provides the indicated shield bonus to your AC. As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn. When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see cover, Core Rulebook 195). The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding. You cannot bash with a tower shield, nor can you use your shield hand for anything else.
When employing a tower shield in combat, you take a –2 penalty on attack rolls because of the shield’s encumbrance. Source
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 195
When making a melee attack against an adjacent target, your target has cover if any line from any corner of your square to the target’s square goes through a wall (including a low wall). When making a melee attack against a target that isn’t adjacent to you (such as with a reach weapon), use the rules for determining cover from ranged attacks.
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Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target’s square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.
It's a standard action to 'make cover' with a Tower Shield, and that cover only lasts until the start of your next turn, so you are pretty much sacrificing all your normal attacks to do this as you only have a move action left each round you do this.
This cover will protect you from AoEs coming from the other side of the tower shield, but you have no cover from AoEs that aren't coming from this direction (like a fireball that bursts behind you or from your flank). Additionally, no one else benefits from this cover.
As noted in the Tower Shield description, targeted spells can still target you, but normal ranged/melee attacks can't.
I am unclear on how having four arms is intended to come into play here...
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This cover will protect you from AoEs coming from the other side of the tower shield, but you have no cover from AoEs that aren't coming from this direction (like a fireball that bursts behind you or from your flank). Additionally, no one else benefits from this cover.
I am not sure if that is correct. A Fireball is a Spread, and Spreads turn around corners (that adds range from its point of origin). After they have "moved" around the corner, the attack doesn't come anymore from the protected direction.
A spread spell extends out like a burst but can turn corners.
You select the point of origin, and the spell spreads out a given distance in all directions. Figure the area the spell effect fills by taking into account any turns the spell effect takes.
A burst spell affects whatever it catches in its area, including creatures that you can’t see. It can’t affect creatures with total cover from its point of origin (in other words, its effects don’t extend around corners).
If total cover works against spreads, there is no difference between spreads and bursts.
A player wants to create a character with four arms, fighter with tower prof and some rogue to get greater evasion.....this is awesome buuuuut, he argues this would give him 100% concealment.....which is fine, buuuuuut, he says that the concealment would negate AoE damage and I need another perspective to explain it would not.
How would you put it to him?
Can you elaborate on the exact argument? If I understand you correctly the player has simply equipped their character with four tower shields, and they're not using the special ability of the tower shield to gain Total Cover. If so, none of their four shields are perfectly aligned to block incoming attacks. The shields are swinging about during combat which creates gaps that an opponent can take advantage of.
They've accomplished exactly nothing except stacking the ACP and attack penalty. Concealment doesn't come into play here at all.
And even with a tower shield's Total Cover you're still susceptible to AoE damage. It is first when you have Mobile Stronghold that your Tower Shield grants partial cover against AoE spells.
A player wants to create a character with four arms, fighter with tower prof and some rogue to get greater evasion.....this is awesome buuuuut, he argues this would give him 100% concealment.....which is fine, buuuuuut, he says that the concealment would negate AoE damage and I need another perspective to explain it would not.
How would you put it to him?
First thing to do is have the player quote the rules he's using. If he wants to have concealment, he needs a rule that makes it so. If we wants immunity form AoE spells drawn from that, he needs a rule that makes it so.
Pathfinder is a permissive rule system. The burden of proof is on the player, not you.
If a medium-sized, four-armed character was equipped with four Tower Shields, and took four standard actions to plant a shield on each edge of their square... yes, they would have total cover from every direction.
It is, the absolute worst possible use of a character... ever.
It takes four rounds to set up, and completely removes the character from the encounter... they become nothing more thab a pillar or a tree... they aren't a threat, and can be completely ignored. Not only is the fight probably over by the time they set their 4th shield, but they cannot make any attacks... what is the point? Yay, you survived, but everyone else in your party died because you are worthless and did not help them, at all.
Go for it. Lol.
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If a medium-sized, four-armed character was equipped with four Tower Shields, and took four standard actions to plant a shield on each edge of their square... yes, they would have total cover from every direction.
It is, the absolute worst possible use of a character... ever.
It takes four rounds to set up, and completely removes the character from the encounter... they become nothing more thab a pillar or a tree... they aren't a threat, and can be completely ignored. Not only is the fight probably over by the time they set their 4th shield, but they cannot make any attacks... what is the point? Yay, you survived, but everyone else in your party died because you are worthless and did not help them, at all.
Go for it. Lol.
na dude. he's still vulnerable to pigeon @#$ from above...
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If a medium-sized, four-armed character was equipped with four Tower Shields, and took four standard actions to plant a shield on each edge of their square... yes, they would have total cover from every direction.
It is, the absolute worst possible use of a character... ever.
It takes four rounds to set up, and completely removes the character from the encounter... they become nothing more thab a pillar or a tree... they aren't a threat, and can be completely ignored. Not only is the fight probably over by the time they set their 4th shield, but they cannot make any attacks... what is the point? Yay, you survived, but everyone else in your party died because you are worthless and did not help them, at all.
Go for it. Lol.
Except the 'cover' only lasts until the start of your next turn, so you can't possibly have more than one 'cover' at a time unless you can get multiple standard actions per round, which I don't think is possible offhand...
Good catch. The idea, as a whole, is even dumber than I first thought.
I think the rat stack can pull it off in one round... but that's four different characters working as one to be completely useless together.
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Except tower shields count as 'cover' for the wielder only, so even this doesn't quite work...Good catch. The idea, as a whole, is even dumber than I first thought.
I think the rat stack can pull it off in one round... but that's four different characters working as one to be completely useless together.
... As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn. When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see cover, Core Rulebook 195).
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So, three of your four rats would still lack cover against any single attack...
Well, I tried. Lol.
So, three of your four rats would still lack cover against any single attack...Except tower shields count as 'cover' for the wielder only, so even this doesn't quite work...Good catch. The idea, as a whole, is even dumber than I first thought.
I think the rat stack can pull it off in one round... but that's four different characters working as one to be completely useless together.
... As a standard action, however, you can use a tower shield to grant you total cover until the beginning of your next turn. When using a tower shield in this way, you must choose one edge of your space. That edge is treated as a solid wall for attacks targeting you only. You gain total cover for attacks that pass through this edge and no cover for attacks that do not pass through this edge (see cover, Core Rulebook 195).
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Tower shield rules for cover have always been a bit… paradoxical… you bunker down with a towershield in anticipation of a dragon using their breath weapon. An ally is directly behind you… the dragon breaths and their fire breath engulfs your ally but you are completely unscathed… despite the breath weapon being a burst and not a spread, it was able to bend around cover to hit your ally, but still behaved like a proper burst when it came to your square…
Now… imagine if you had set up your towershield cover in a doorway… enemies cant see through to attack you or your allies and yet, only you benefit from the cover… a fireball detonates on the otherside of the door, because you have cover from your shield in the doorway the fireball cant spread around any corners to hit you… but for everyone else, that edge of cover doesnt exist so the fireball spreads through the doorway and around the corner into the hallway engulfing them.
Yeah, I'm not sure how the player thought this should work but on the surface it doesn't appear to work. And the 4 arms don't factor in.
Remember it's a standard action to use a tower shield for cover, meaning the can set one shield as a standard action. Even if they had 4 shields they could wield, they can't do anything with the other 3. For reference though, generally speaking don't allow 4 armed races. They get really wonky and unbalanced in the hands of a player seeking to abuse them.
Anyways, have you player explain how they thought this was supposed to work in detail.
I suspect they missed where setting a single shield is a standard action. If you could set all 4 shields as a single standard action, they would be protected from 4 of 6 sides from attack. But still be vulnerable from above or below. And they would have no actions to make attacks with (technically they have a swift action and move action and attack of opportunity but all their hands are occupied with shields so its still super unlikely they can do anything except make themselves mostly protected). About 2 rounds after this turtle action, some enemy should realize they can throw stuff over the shields and hurt this bozo.
Fair enough, even a magical tower shield isn't going to hold up well to the onslaught of a determined appropriate level enemy when you have no offensive options. It's really just a question of time.
About 2 rounds after this turtle action, some enemy should realize they can throw stuff over the shields and hurt this bozo.Or that simply breaking the shields is an option. A guy behind total cover can't make attacks of opportunity in that direction, so the shields are easy targets.
Not quite. The tower shield's Total Cover is a one-way street. Just as an ally behind you won't benefit from the Total Cover, the enemy in front of you won't benefit either. You, and you alone, have Total Cover against attacks.
So you can still make AoOs in that direction.
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About 2 rounds after this turtle action, some enemy should realize they can throw stuff over the shields and hurt this bozo.Or that simply breaking the shields is an option. A guy behind total cover can't make attacks of opportunity in that direction, so the shields are easy targets.Not quite. The tower shield's Total Cover is a one-way street. Just as an ally behind you won't benefit from the Total Cover, the enemy in front of you won't benefit either. You, and you alone, have Total Cover against attacks.
So you can still make AoOs in that direction.
The shield grants total cover to you. If you have total cover from a direction, you can't see in that direction.
It isn't Schroedringen cover.
You gain the effect of Total Cover against attacks targeting you through one edge of your space. That's it. It doesn't block vision. Not yours, not theirs.
And you've got it backwards. If you are considered to have Total Cover then the enemy is the one unable to see you. Or are you implying that the enemy also is benefiting from Total Cover?
Unless our hypothetical 4 shield fighter has a bite or tentacle attack AoOs are probably not available anyway.
The real fun would be to use Grease or some other way of forcing acrobatics checks, -40 acp, lol.
And let's not forget the -8 penalty on attack rolls.
well there is the tower shield focused fighter archtype that help a bit with the action economy and the penalties. but it got nothing vs lob Shots ( used plural 's' as one attack the archtpe can block at high enough level)
'several' is an understatement, as Taja said in their post above - the tower shield gives zero cover vs targeted spells (and most other spells can circumvent it).
"The shield does not, however, provide cover against targeted spells; a spellcaster can cast a spell on you by targeting the shield you are holding."
targeting the shield targets the user, no need to look for specific shield targeting spells.
honestly it will be harder to look for offensive spells that ARE stopped by the shield's cover then those which can ignore or circumvent it.
why blast a fireball before the shield when you can most likely just have it detonate above the user? stuff like magic missile\rays\enchantments etc hurt the user by aiming at the shield, also don't even get me started on pit spells...
I think we've beat this to death, and can succinctly summarize it as:
This is a terrible idea. Do it :)