Having 4 summoner's with Eidolon's wrath that can do good damage means having 4 summoners with the divine spells only and not getting any of the plant/controller options. It is a good focus spell for AoA though, I agree, although Cry of destruction if you have damaged an enemy previously in the turn. It is only sonic damage, but that is a pretty good energy type for bypassing resistances.
I think both end up being pretty close in the end.
I'd put money on the clerics over the summoners.I take your bet everyday. But I don't think we'll ever be able to get to the end of it.
I would take that bet easily. I've seen high level clerics. They are not weak. Boring, but not weak. They have lots of weak feats, easy to archetype, and Divine Font with a wisdom based caster makes for easily adding archetypes for animal companions or other classes. They can heal for days with Divine Font and their spell slots. With ancestry feats to pick up electric arc, clerics have a good chassis to build a lot of different ways.
AoE harm can also be pretty nasty if you get two clerics doing it at the same time.
I think you could build a real effective party of clerics.
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Being -2/-3 hit ( proficiency and str/dex ) behind would require more healings:
1) many attacks are going to miss.
2) many resources are going to waste ( spells ).
3) enemies will go down slowly ( resulting in more attacks for them, and we go to point 4 ).
4) more healings required.A summoner can do this better and without expending resources, although being caught in an AoE can end up being really bad, reason why it is better to stay far from their own eidolon.
The enemies aiming for the summoners rather than the eidolon would be godlike by lvl 6 when you hit AoO. And even more by lvl 8 when you hit Hulking size ( and even more with a plant eidolon ).
I'd pay to have enemies triggering my AoO for free.
A summoner is always going to be taking hits. I've played one. They are always getting crit, hit, every aura, every AoE, every grab, every poison attack, every extra effect is hitting them causing them to either save, take a crit, or a regular hit. There is no buffer for a summoner and his eidolon with the one hit point pool. It doesn't matter how powerful the monster is, they are getting hit and can't avoid it.
Four summoners is eight points of attack with no way to really avoid getting hit.
Monsters get nastier and nastier as they level. You have so few spell slots to deal with problems as a summoner and maximum master casting even with an archetype.
You get a few bad rounds of crits or critical fails, you're likely all done. Whereas clerics can erase damage during those periods and still have maximum spell slots. If they have animal companions, they don't have to worry about getting them up until later or it affecting their hit point pool.
If they get knocked unconscious, they don't have to spend 3 actions to get an eidolon up again to get back in combat.
They can build for range with better than a d4 30 foot limited ranged attack like an eidolon. You can build a cleric to use a bow no problem.
I've seen Eidolon damage. It is very weak. Boost damage costs an action. It's basically an action tax to do the same damage as a normal weapon.
I see summoners running into some real bad sitautions with monsters like Frogehomeths or dragons that would tear them apart because there was no way to avoid attack with eight points of attack and constant pressure on the hit point pool.
4 champions with different edicts/anathema ( eventually, stuff that clashes with another ). lecturing each other is something everybody would like to see.
- I think that a pack of 4 paladins would be hilarious.
3 good champions of each cause and one anti-paladin of Gorum that the others keep trapped in a barrel until they need him to fight.
A summoner is always going to be taking hits. I've played one. They are always getting crit, hit, every aura, every AoE, every grab, every poison attack, every extra effect is hitting them causing them to either save, take a crit, or a regular hit. There is no buffer for a summoner and his eidolon with the one hit point pool. It doesn't matter how powerful the monster is, they are getting hit and can't avoid it.
Don't Protective Bond address this?
A summoner is always going to be taking hits. I've played one. They are always getting crit, hit, every aura, every AoE, every grab, every poison attack, every extra effect is hitting them causing them to either save, take a crit, or a regular hit. There is no buffer for a summoner and his eidolon with the one hit point pool. It doesn't matter how powerful the monster is, they are getting hit and can't avoid it.Don't Protective Bond address this?
I think the point is, for a full 1-20 campaign, levels 1-9 could get pretty dangerous. It also then becomes everyone in the party's reaction for the round when it comes up even after everyone takes that feet at level 10.
A summoner is always going to be taking hits. I've played one. They are always getting crit, hit, every aura, every AoE, every grab, every poison attack, every extra effect is hitting them causing them to either save, take a crit, or a regular hit. There is no buffer for a summoner and his eidolon with the one hit point pool. It doesn't matter how powerful the monster is, they are getting hit and can't avoid it.Don't Protective Bond address this?
No. Protective Bond let's you take the better save for an aoe attack like fireball. It doesn't do anything for multi-target attacks that hit things with individual attack rolls.
I don't know why this isn't understood if you've fought PF2 monsters. There are all types of special attacks in PF2 that you have to save against if you are in a certain range. If the eidolon is in range, it is having to save even if the summoner is outside the range. With a single hit point pool, you are constantly taking the damage while stacking the negatives.
If you fight a lich with a fear aura, the eidolon misses it's save and it's AC is reduced and the single hit point pool is still taking the hits including criticals from the monsters. It's not an issue with standard AoE spells, but multitarget effects and attacks that hit individual targets within range. Then there are reaction abilities and abilities like Improved Grab with Improved Constrict or something similar. Or a swallow whole effect as well.
If the eidolon gets swallowed whole, the options are let the eidolon try to escape, spend all your actions to desummon the eidolon, then next turn 3 actions to resummon it putting you out of action for two rounds, or take the pain of the eidolon getting crushed inside some creature hammering your hit point pool. While you're working this out, that creature might decide to come and swallow the summoner whole as well. Summoner doesn't have enough slots to put a freedom of movement on himself and the eidolon.
There are all kinds of instances that can come up with a summoner they can't avoid because either the summoner or the eidolon are in harm's way always putting pressure on the shared hit point pool.
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But that's the case for absolutely any class: If you are swallowed whole, you take damage. The case where both the Summoner and the Eidolon are swallowed whole may happen, but if it was a normal party it would be 2 characters swallowed.
So the whole "there are 2 points of attack" is more complex than just considering you'll take much more damage than anyone else. If the enemy doesn't use AoE attacks, then the Eidolon or the Summoner are just targets like anyone else.
I play a Summoner, too, and the 2 points of attacks caused me an issue only once. In general, only one from the Eidolon or the Summoner is targeted.
Trample would be outright brutal vs. 8 targets & 4 hit point pools.
And Protective Bond only helps vs. the 1st AoE/round (which IMO is often excellent, but still a patch on a vulnerability that multiple sources would exploit).
And four full casters worth of buffs grows to be an excess of customizable resources, with deity spells opening up violent options. And they're able to coordinate alignment damage to drop AoEs which includes party members.
That said, I think coordinated Summoners would be devastating too, starting combat w/ 4 Eidelon's Wrath blasts plus each one tripping for every one to AoO would be cool too. But an Eidelon doesn't tank that well, while a Warpriest can w/ an Archetype. And the Clerics can use Cast Down (even w/ lowest-level slots) to rob their toughest enemies of actions.
Which is to say they'd both be viable, but I'd travel with the Clerics if it came to it (and if they were built as a team, a task more straightforward for the Summoners).
But that's the case for absolutely any class: If you are swallowed whole, you take damage. The case where both the Summoner and the Eidolon are swallowed whole may happen, but if it was a normal party it would be 2 characters swallowed.
So the whole "there are 2 points of attack" is more complex than just considering you'll take much more damage than anyone else. If the enemy doesn't use AoE attacks, then the Eidolon or the Summoner are just targets like anyone else.
I play a Summoner, too, and the 2 points of attacks caused me an issue only once. In general, only one from the Eidolon or the Summoner is targeted.
This is four summoners. Not one player with a summoner backed up by other classes. So every summoner would have those weaknesses.
I still remember getting attacked by a leucrotta while my eidolon was attacked by a leucrotta. I was ripped apart. No way for the eidolon to get it off me. Most monsters won't know or care you're two targets sharing a hit point pool. They'll see two separate targets amongst a group and might attack them both.
You can't send the eidolon in first because it's still the same hit point pool. Everyone has to stay within 30 feet of each other for the healing as well.
It seems like a lot of weak points when all four of the classes are summoners.
I think a full rogue party is probably very good. You aren't the most durable, but everyone can take a hit or two, so cycling who goes in front or similar tactics should go a long way. Apart from that, you have extreme versatility and very high power. Speaking from personal experience, the damage output alone is something to behold. Starting at level 9, your enemies will be quite unfortunate with half a million debilitations on everyone.
For fun, a full champion party would be hilarious. Everyone has to start with a different alignment :D. It wouldn't last long, but it would certainly be memorable ^^
Druid was the first to spring to mind, a couple with animal companions, at couple that focus on wild shape. Dedicate the rest to blasting and and control options. Seems like it’d work pretty much just as well as any normal party.
Summoners have their obvious advantages, but also the obvious disadvantage of aoe vulnerability.
I’m sure oracles and clerics and monks and fighters and champions could all make it work to relatively easily.
I think the real interesting question would be, how does a 6hp class do it, and which one would be best at it?
My first instinct says Sorc but I could be wrong.
Obviously, if you see a summoner within 30yd of their summoner, they deserve being attacked.
It's kinda their fault for playing the class in a suicidal way( the only thing I can think of is casting protect companion but, especially at low levels, it's not always worth it to be that close to the eidolon, or to cast electric arc all the time, but the summoner should be aware that doing so will come at a price ).
Primal summoners many times tries to stay at 30ft to cast EA to improve the AVG dmg. But I agree if you are doing this you need to accept that you are in a more risky situation than if you tried to stay hidden into another room.
Also I don't know what kind of traumatic situation the Deriven passed but in mostly in dungeon encounters summoners usually stays in same backline of any other spellcasters and usually the life for these backlines, including summoner isn't that bad. Usually it's complicated to monsters and NPC antagonists to get focus into player's backline without being attack, pursued and surrounded by frontline players.
In party full of summoners is hard even for a strong monster simply ignore the 4 eidolons to try to focus into summoners specially if they have AoO.
The only situation that I really consider a real disadvantage for summoner is very large AoE target damage like Horrid Wilting that can be very devastating for them (except for Construct and Undead Eidolons) but isn't like every creature you will face that will do this.
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I think the biggest issue with 4 summoners is going to be getting in each others way with 8 characters on the battle map. I do think the summoners have some interesting weird options for sending solo eidolons out to cause trouble or scout and get back up when they get knocked out triggering social traps on themselves and such, so it could be fun, but even facing a pair of dragons or a couple of arson demons at higher level could get really nasty since protective bond is only going to work once a round.
...A summoner is always going to be taking hits. I've played one. They are always getting crit, hit, every aura, every AoE, every grab, every poison attack, every extra effect is hitting them causing them to either save, take a crit, or a regular hit. There is no buffer for a summoner and his eidolon with the one hit point pool. It doesn't matter how powerful the monster is, they are getting hit and can't avoid it.Don't Protective Bond address this?No. Protective Bond let's you take the better save for an aoe attack like fireball. It doesn't do anything for multi-target attacks that hit things with individual attack rolls.
I don't know why this isn't understood if you've fought PF2 monsters. There are all types of special attacks in PF2 that you have to save against if you are in a certain range. If the eidolon is in range, it is having to save even if the summoner is outside the range. With a single hit point pool, you are constantly taking the damage while stacking the negatives.
If you fight a lich with a fear aura, the eidolon misses it's save and it's AC is reduced and the single hit point pool is still taking the hits including criticals from the monsters. It's not an issue with standard AoE spells, but multitarget effects and attacks that hit individual targets within range. Then there are reaction abilities and abilities like Improved Grab with Improved Constrict or something similar. Or a swallow whole effect as well.
If the eidolon gets swallowed whole, the options are let the eidolon try to escape, spend all your actions to desummon the eidolon, then next turn 3 actions to resummon it putting you out of action for two rounds, or take the pain of the eidolon getting crushed inside some creature hammering your hit point pool. While you're working this out, that creature might decide to come and swallow the summoner whole as well. Summoner
In a party of 4 summoners, there isn't a choice but to go after the summoner either through his eidolon or hitting him.
You can't send the eidolon in first because it's still the same hit point pool. Everyone has to stay within 30 feet of each other for the healing as well.It seems like a lot of weak points when all four of the classes are summoners.
It's kinda wrong.
range for healings
1) the link between eidolon and summoner is 100 yd, which means the summoner can easily stay in the back while healing themselves ( I don't care if my eidolon is 80yd away. I, the summoner, are the one who's going to be targeted with heals.2) Boost and Reinforce eidolon also have 100 yd and lifelink surge has no range at all, so it can be activated even without line of sight ( even if the eidolon is swallowed and can't be seen.
Focus spells + 2x targets
Knowing we will be 4 summoners, stuff like bard dedication + hymn of healing comes in handy, being 2x lifelink surge or life boost.It also requires charisma, which is the main summoner stat, and gives the summoner access to inspire courage by lvl 8.
So, for example, a summoner out of 4 might go that way, ending up being the one who sustain the "tank summoner" ( the one whose eidolon will probably get hulking form by lvl 8).
The eidolon will then be able to benefit from both lifelink surge and reinforce eidolon, while the summoner will benefit from hymn of healing cast from another summoner, being impossible/hard to kill. All of this by lvl 4.
Traditions and Eidolons
...
Last, but not least, Eidolons and traditions give access to specific spells that can be used to mitigate damage.1) Magical understudy may give the eidolon access to shield
2) The tradition can give the summoner access to protect companion, as well as shield ( if the summoner is attacked ).
3) Stoneskin, heal, haste, protection, etc... several spells depends the tradition, may come in handy if required.
4) Size increase and positiong can easly lead to walls of eidolons, forcing the
I'm talking about other summoners using up their slots to heal. Not every summoner will necessarily have a heal, though I guess you could make all divine or primal summoners or an occult summoner with Soothe. That would be the best way.
You don't play this game much do you? Or at least not in the type of games I play in or at the level.
It's very easy to cover 30 yards for some creatures. If a summoner is not within 30 yards, then all the monsters just focus fire his eidolon and destroy it. Even with healing, bringing it to zero is not hard if the thing is getting hit by everything. They don't have high ACs. Spells like Protect Companion have a 30 foot range and can't be cast from 90 yards. Nor can many buff spells.
Off the top of my head I can think of all types of monsters that do pretty crazy mobile attacks from dragons to outsiders with dimension door to witchfires with flight and ranged attacks to casters who will be invis and blasting away at your group in tight quarters in dungeons.
This idea you will have an easy time spreading out and staying 90 yards away is not at all what will happen in actual games.
I think a summoner group would get wrecked myself. And once things started going badly for them, recovering would be incredibly difficult given the actions it takes to get back going as a summoner once you do get wrecked if someone is around to heal you enough to wake you up while their eidolon is getting wrecked since they are next in line.
You don't play this game much do you? Or at least not in the type of games I play in or at the level.Oh, I do play ( it's my 4th AP + some extras )... It's just I don't see that many issues with that class.
Not knowing each other DMs we can just make assumptions ( or making white room scenarios ), as well as bringin our personal experiences, but I can't remember focusing or aoe issues before midgame (before lvl 10 ).
This only considering the summoner class ( leaving apart the 4 clerics setup trying to achieve something ).
I see.
I don't have any DM assumptions. As I've played PF2 more, I've noticed that they add a lot of 2 or 3 action attacks on monsters along with auras, gazes, and other abilities) that hit multiple targets but aren't AoEs necessarily. They are spend 2 actions and make one attack against every creature in range, but don't increase the MAP until attacks are resolved.
And playing the summoner I noticed it has a fairly middling AC which we know in PF2 means easy to critical hit. The summoner does middling to low damage. There's no way to avoid damage for a summoner with the shared hit point pool.
The summoner can find a niche in a party if the person enjoys the class. They are never the most powerful, but not necessarily the weakest either. They aren't very spectacular. They don't really have much they do super well. Not damage, not tanking, not casting, not anything.
Given how often critical hits happen, they will always be getting crit. That's a lot of damage taken they can't avoid. Even the mighty fighter I've seen get wrecked a lot by mooks with multiple attacks tearing them apart. Difference being the fighter focuses on doing damage and others keep him standing. So he can do that one thing very well, whereas the summoner's taking the damage and has to keep himself up while doing way less damage than the fighter to get fights over with.
I see that being a problem at various points that can add up. With the 3 actions to get back into action, it's a real issue if the summoner drops.
I still remember the first time my summoner was knocked unconscious while trying to keep my distance from the eidolon. It was a real pain to get back into action.
I was 70 feet away from my eidolon. I was dropped by the eidolon getting dropped.
Then the slog started. I could summon my eidolon for three actions and send it with a single move or I could stand up first, then move closer to the battle myself.
So I summoned the eidolon for 3 actions and sent it back to battle. I wasn't at full hit points either, but 70 feet from the battle was going to take a bit for the eidolon to get back. Then next round I stood up and kept sending the eidolon back to the fight.
If I were 30 yards away or 90 feet, then I'm spending 3 moves just to get my eidolon back into melee range. By that time the enemy will either be beating on another eidolon or spending the actions to rush the summoners.
No class I've played has such a rough time getting knocked unconscious. You're almost always in danger of getting knocked unconscious if the eidolon is in battle or at least having to spend at least 3 actions to get your eidolon back into action. Then you have no actions to heal yourself, so you hope someone else is doing it. If you're not near max, then you might get dropped again real quick.
It's a painful damage-action loop if it gets going.
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You don't play this game much do you?
Be nice please. That is not called for.
You don't play this game much do you?Be nice please. That is not called for.
I don't feel much in the way of emotion in these discussions. So when I ask the above, I want to know what the other person's experience level is playing the game. It was a genuine question that was answered in an adequate manner.
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I also think a 4 rogue party could work really well with good tactics and abusing stealth a bit. Also the thought of 4 Rogues triggering Opportune Backstab from each other seems hilarious to me.
I also think a 4 rogue party could work really well with good tactics and abusing stealth a bit. Also the thought of 4 Rogues triggering Opportune Backstab from each other seems hilarious to me.
Plus if they all have Mobility, they can walk through Hazards/Traps that trigger off a Reaction, which is most of them. Not that they'd need to, since they're bound to have the Perception & proper skills to handle, but it does mean they could use a Hazard/Trap to their own advantage w/ little effort other than luring in the enemy.
I'd worry though about certain brute-force encounters, and the team's ability to rebound from setbacks.ETA: And incorporeal creatures & oozes...big issues.
4 bard. Each focuses on a different performance- inspire courage, inspire defense, dirge of doom, et al.
No one needs to be melee. They are all grab a summon spell and keep it up as a full caster party. Well, a kind of summon spell. Animate dead is basically a summoning spell in practice, and it technically isn't evil.
Anyway, the summons enjoy the benefits of all the performances as well, which lets you get a lot more mileage out of the spell.
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You don't play this game much do you?Be nice please. That is not called for.I don't feel much in the way of emotion in these discussions. So when I ask the above, I want to know what the other person's experience level is playing the game. It was a genuine question that was answered in an adequate manner.
If it was a genuine question why did you start by already assuming you know the answer?
“How much game experience have you got to inform this opinion” is a genuine question.
“You don’t play this game much do you?” Is a patronising assumption.
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I don't feel much in the way of emotion in these discussions. So when I ask the above, I want to know what the other person's experience level is playing the game. It was a genuine question that was answered in an adequate manner.You don't play this game much do you?Be nice please. That is not called for.
The problem of use such kind of argument is that look-like you are "pull rank". When you do this It's look-like you are saying "how qualified/experienced are you to argument this?" and make fell that you are pulling of the argument discussion to questioning the personal of someone.
Obs.: I don't know if I expressed well because english isn't my natural language so is a bit hard to use idiomatic expression for me but I hope that you understand what I'm talking about.
I also think a 4 rogue party could work really well with good tactics and abusing stealth a bit. Also the thought of 4 Rogues triggering Opportune Backstab from each other seems hilarious to me.
It's similar to a party with 4 Paladins when a opponent hits someone kkk
4 bard. Each focuses on a different performance- inspire courage, inspire defense, dirge of doom, et al.
No one needs to be melee. They are all grab a summon spell and keep it up as a full caster party. Well, a kind of summon spell. Animate dead is basically a summoning spell in practice, and it technically isn't evil.
Anyway, the summons enjoy the benefits of all the performances as well, which lets you get a lot more mileage out of the spell.
I don't know if summoned creatures will be effective enough to hold the front-line in a non-Proficiency without Level game.
I also think a 4 rogue party could work really well with good tactics and abusing stealth a bit. Also the thought of 4 Rogues triggering Opportune Backstab from each other seems hilarious to me.Plus if they all have Mobility, they can walk through Hazards/Traps that trigger off a Reaction, which is most of them. Not that they'd need to, since they're bound to have the Perception & proper skills to handle, but it does mean they could use a Hazard/Trap to their own advantage w/ little effort other than luring in the enemy.
I'd worry though about certain brute-force encounters, and the team's ability to rebound from setbacks.
ETA: And incorporeal creatures & oozes...big issues.
I would try to sneak past Oozes honestly, fighting those seems like a horrible experience with that kind of party.
I've found you can usually kite oozes anyway. They are super slow.
It occurred to me that any non-csster party will likely need to pick up some cantrips at least from feats. Detect Magic feels pretty essential and light is huge for almost any weapon using build.
I think some people just never think to kite, it’s not a natural instinct, it’s a more developed strategy.
Which is why you’ll sometimes see ostensibly powerful monsters designed with a gaping weakness to it.