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Summoner archetype needs a change that brings it on to the same level as animal companions. As it stands, archetype eidolons are only really good at being skill monkeys and are suboptimal in combat. At level 17, I am spending six class feats to have an eidolon that is worse in almost every way than an animal companion that would require half the feat investment.
They have the same scaling as animal companions, but characters that have summoner archetype have one less action to work with than those with animal companions. You also need to spend your entire first turn summoning them. Furthermore, you need to spend feats to have expert weapon proficiency, to not roll saves against AoE with disadvantage (spending your reaction to do so), and to give your eidolon any sort of defining abilities. There is really no reason to take the archetype if you want to use it in combat.
I think that archetype eidolons should either get Act Together, or their attacks should scale with the martial proficiency of the main character. I am partial to the latter, as it would differentiate archetype eidolons from animal companions. This would not unbalance the game, as the summoner would still have to spend their actions to attack. They would just be choosing whether to do it with their eidolon's attacks or their own. This also would not step on the toes of flurry rangers, as they still have a better chance to hit on their second and third attacks when compared to fighters. Animal companions also don't share MAP with the creature commanding them, so you would have a better chance to hit more often with an animal companion over an eidolon.
I would appreciate it if someone at Paizo would crunch the numbers and give summoner archetype a serious makeover to make it better for martial classes.
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You also need to spend your entire first turn summoning them.
There is nothing I can find in the Summoner (base class or archetype) rules that says you have to wait until combat to summon it. My summoner just hangs out with his Beast Eidolon all the time, never unmanifesting it. He might need to for a diplomatic encounter or something, but otherwise his Eidolon is his buddy, always around.
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Summoner archetype needs a change that brings it on to the same level as animal companions. As it stands, archetype eidolons are only really good at being skill monkeys and are suboptimal in combat. At level 17, I am spending six class feats to have an eidolon that is worse in almost every way than an animal companion that would require half the feat investment.
Every way other than the skills and spellcasting that they provide.
They have the same scaling as animal companions, but characters that have summoner archetype have one less action to work with than those with animal companions. You also need to spend your entire first turn summoning them. Furthermore, you need to spend feats to have expert weapon proficiency, to not roll saves against AoE with disadvantage (spending your reaction to do so), and to give your eidolon any sort of defining abilities. There is really no reason to take the archetype if you want to use it in combat.
No disagreement there - other than the requirement to not pre-summon the Eidolon that was mentioned by psyberwraith. You should probably get an Animal Companion instead. Those are a lot better in combat than an Eidolon.
I would appreciate it if someone at Paizo would crunch the numbers and give summoner archetype a serious makeover to make it better for martial classes.
I'm curious why you think that the Paizo devs didn't crunch the numbers the first time. I remember the Summoner Playtest. You can even still see the forum threads from it.
Are you willing to give up the skills, evolution feats, and spellcasting from the Eidolon and Summoner Archetype in order to get that?
At that point, what would be the difference between an Eidolon and an Animal Companion? The ability to unsummon it?
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As backwards as it sounds, it seems like the eidolon from summoner archetype was designed to be something of a skill assistant and non-combat support tool, not something you can fight with.
Kind of a design failure given expectations, but the power balance of the feat is reasonable if you use it in that context.
Also, the Summoner Archetype asks for less feats than Animal Companions (one level 2 and one level 12) to get to its maximum potential. On top of giving you spellcasting and such. That would be way to good to make it on par with Animal Companions.
Summoner archetype needs a change that brings it on to the same level as animal companions. As it stands, archetype eidolons are only really good at being skill monkeys and are suboptimal in combat. At level 17, I am spending six class feats to have an eidolon that is worse in almost every way than an animal companion that would require half the feat investment.Every way other than the skills and spellcasting that they provide.
You need to dump feats into summoner archetype to get spellcasting. Even more so than other casting archetypes, since you don't get cantrips or spellcasting for taking the dedication and are a bounded caster. It is arguably more viable as a martial archetype than a casting one. Keep in mind, if you do this, it is at the expense of your eidolon's power.
Are you willing to give up the skills, evolution feats, and spellcasting from the Eidolon and Summoner Archetype in order to get that?
At that point, what would be the difference between an Eidolon and an Animal Companion? The ability to unsummon it?
I have not taken a single spellcasting feat from the archetype. All six of my archetype feats are going towards my eidolon.
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I would say if you want a combat friend on par with an animal companion, just take an animal companion. Bearing in mind it's not going to come with the skills and other abilities that an eidolon can bring.
That's the sacrifice that is made.
If you want an animal companion that can be summoned and unsommoned and RP closer to an Eidolon, I think it would be better to ask your GM for houserules a feat that allows you to summon and unsummon it like a Eidolon.
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Are you willing to give up the skills, evolution feats, and spellcasting from the Eidolon and Summoner Archetype in order to get that?
At that point, what would be the difference between an Eidolon and an Animal Companion? The ability to unsummon it?
Why would I need to give up Evolution feats? However: skills on the Eidolon? Absolutely. Don't need 'em, I've got my own. Spellcasting on the Eidolon and Archetype? Yeah, absolutely. It's not essential. I'd give it up to have a big customizable monster I can mold into whatever form I'd like.
I just want to play a Monster Hunter Stories type character, guy with a bow or a greatsword or big ole hammer next to a ferocious beast, and being able to ride on it and fight as a team.
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I just want to play a Monster Hunter Stories type character, guy with a bow or a greatsword or big ole hammer next to a ferocious beast, and being able to ride on it and fight as a team.
This is totally doable with the rules as is. It may not be the top notch optimized build, but you can do it easily. It's just not a Summoner build, more of a Ranger build to me.
Summoner archetype would actually be overpowered, even if the only thing the eidolon could do was open doors and walk around with no other abilities. This kind of 100 % risk free resource free scouting (except summoner hp which can be quickly recovered with medicine) trivializes almost all traps, hazards and ambushes in the game.
The GM may homebrew that encounters increase in difficulty if the players scout them, but all this does is create a toxic arms race between players and the GM which encourages the PCs to be even more cautious and cowardly.
Not really because the Eidolon shares the HP with the summoner, so if the summons falls you falls too.
The other point is that this is already possible with Manual Dexterity familiars. Specially for witches you can send you familiar ahead and if it trigger a trap and die you can say "Oh no! The DM killed my familiar! You Bastard!" and wait to receive another one from your patreon in the next day (there are many similar witches' familiar jokes here in the forum).
Also at last in APs is pretty rare to have mortal (instant kill) traps. We already have a situation where the players face a trap, trigger it for some reason and stop some minutos to treat wounds or to try to recover some condition. So this is rarely a big problem in most tables.
summoner themselve are martial that didn't get martial proficiency
if martial multiclass into summoner get martial proficiency on both themselve and eidolon they will just be better summoner
We could have a martial summoner variant that loses the spellcasting abilities and some spellcasting feats but gain martial weapons proficiency and heavy armor and some fighter feats.
IMO this would be more balanced and interesting than having a stronger summoner archetype.|
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Summoner archetype would actually be overpowered, even if the only thing the eidolon could do was open doors and walk around with no other abilities. This kind of 100 % risk free resource free scouting (except summoner hp which can be quickly recovered with medicine) trivializes almost all traps, hazards and ambushes in the game.
The GM may homebrew that encounters increase in difficulty if the players scout them, but all this does is create a toxic arms race between players and the GM which encourages the PCs to be even more cautious and cowardly.
Not really because the Eidolon shares the HP with the summoner, so if the summons falls you falls too.
The other point is that this is already possible with Manual Dexterity familiars. Specially for witches you can send you familiar ahead and if it trigger a trap and die you can say "Oh no! The DM killed my familiar! You Bastard!" and wait to receive another one from your patreon in the next day (there are many similar witches' familiar jokes here in the forum).
Also at last in APs is pretty rare to have mortal (instant kill) traps. We already have a situation where the players face a trap, trigger it for some reason and stop some minutos to treat wounds or to try to recover some condition. So this is rarely a big problem in most tables.
summoner themselve are martial that didn't get martial proficiency
if martial multiclass into summoner get martial proficiency on both themselve and eidolon they will just be better summoner
We could have a martial summoner variant that loses the spellcasting abilities and some spellcasting feats but gain martial weapons proficiency and heavy armor and some fighter feats.
IMO this would be more balanced and interesting than having a stronger summoner archetype.
Now that is an elegant solution.
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summoner themselve are martial that didn't get martial proficiency
Summoner having trash proficiency was also kind of a mistake tbh, just makes tandem strike builds kind of a trap.
Summoner having trash proficiency was also kind of a mistake tbh, just makes tandem strike builds kind of a trap.
I'm hoping that it works well enough when combined with a Polymorph battle form spell. I haven't tried it out in game yet though.
At least, I don't see any reason why Tandem actions like Act Together and Tandem Strike stop working when Polymorphed. Edit: It would also make Twin Eidolon not work very well if Tandem actions weren't available.
Summoner having trash proficiency was also kind of a mistake tbh, just makes tandem strike builds kind of a trap.I'm hoping that it works well enough when combined with a Polymorph battle form spell. I haven't tried it out in game yet though.
At least, I don't see any reason why Tandem actions like Act Together and Tandem Strike stop working when Polymorphed. Edit: It would also make Twin Eidolon not work very well if Tandem actions weren't available.
The problem of this build is that you have a low number of top level spellslots to keep shape shifting every fighting in a day. You can mitigate a little with Druid Dedication + Order Spell but only works from levels 4-10.
IMO if you want to help you eidolon in DPR use cantrips or boost your eidolon (you can also combine boost eidolon cantrips with bard dedication composite cantrips) or take some sorcerer focus blasting spell while you eidolon Strikes.
The problem of this build is that you have a low number of top level spellslots to keep shape shifting every fighting in a day. You can mitigate a little with Druid Dedication + Order Spell but only works from levels 4-10.
IMO if you want to help you eidolon in DPR use cantrips or boost your eidolon (you can also combine boost eidolon cantrips with bard dedication composite cantrips) or take some sorcerer focus blasting spell while you eidolon Strikes.
Not planning on taking Druid archetype. Also not planning on trying to one-trick the tactic. My understanding of practical game tactics is that having many different viable options is better than focusing everything into one combat trick and expecting it to work all the time.
So for battles where the numbers of combatants start out approximately equal, I may give it a try to unbalance the numbers in our favor. But against a difficult fight against one or two powerful enemies I will probably go with a different tactic.
But you still don't solve the question. You are unable to do an efficient "martial" char that fights side-by-side with it's eidolon with Battle Form spells. You can do this sometimes in some selected situations but not always as many players wanted to do.
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Summoner having trash proficiency was also kind of a mistake tbh, just makes tandem strike builds kind of a trap.I'm hoping that it works well enough when combined with a Polymorph battle form spell. I haven't tried it out in game yet though.
At least, I don't see any reason why Tandem actions like Act Together and Tandem Strike stop working when Polymorphed. Edit: It would also make Twin Eidolon not work very well if Tandem actions weren't available.
The problem of this build is that you have a low number of top level spellslots to keep shape shifting every fighting in a day. You can mitigate a little with Druid Dedication + Order Spell but only works from levels 4-10.
IMO if you want to help you eidolon in DPR use cantrips or boost your eidolon (you can also combine boost eidolon cantrips with bard dedication composite cantrips) or take some sorcerer focus blasting spell while you eidolon Strikes.
To be honest, battle forms aren't the worst choices here. Every cast is going to last you an entire fight, so you're reasonably slot efficient. You kind of have to pick and choose which fights you use them on, but if your adventuring days aren't super long you can use them pretty often.
It's a shame battle forms have such sharp breakpoints though.
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But you still don't solve the question. You are unable to do an efficient "martial" char that fights side-by-side with it's eidolon with Battle Form spells. You can do this sometimes in some selected situations but not always as many players wanted to do.
No, I don't think it would. My initial comment was to Squiggit saying that Tandem Strike is a complete trap option because of Summoner's low weapon proficiency.
I also don't think there is a good way of doing a full two-martial hybrid character. That just seems too powerful and would overshadow all of the one-martial character classes that already exist, or even the one-martial with minion companion character options.
Similarly, the Summoner's ability to be a two-caster hybrid are rather limited too. Act Together is deliberately designed to prevent casting two 2-action spells in a round even though the two will together get four actions available.
The class itself was designed to be a caster-martial hybrid.
And the archetype was designed to not overshadow Animal Companions or the base Summoner class in combat.
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No, I don't think it would. My initial comment was to Squiggit saying that Tandem Strike is a complete trap option because of Summoner's low weapon proficiency.
Battle form actually does seem like a decent solution here. Probably not optimal gameplay but good.
My gripe was mostly at some experience with weapon-wielding summoners, where taking and using Tandem Strike often ended up leading to less damage than not using it at all, which isn't a great feeling for a level 6 feat that's supposed to be competitive with eidolon's wrath and AoO.
My gripe was mostly at some experience with weapon-wielding summoners, where taking and using Tandem Strike often ended up leading to less damage than not using it at all, which isn't a great feeling for a level 6 feat that's supposed to be competitive with eidolon's wrath and AoO.
Yeah, that I would agree with.
Tandem Strike is not for general use, you have to build for it with the Summoner's weapon proficiency in mind.
Still less of a trap option than Eldritch Nails though.
I also don't think there is a good way of doing a full two-martial hybrid character. That just seems too powerful and would overshadow all of the one-martial character classes that already exist, or even the one-martial with minion companion character options.
Even if you had a fighter with an eidolon with legendary proficiency and Act Together, the numbers still work out better for flurry ranger with an animal companion on every attack except for the first one.
So why are you so dead set against just getting an Animal Companion then?
I also don't think there is a good way of doing a full two-martial hybrid character. That just seems too powerful and would overshadow all of the one-martial character classes that already exist, or even the one-martial with minion companion character options.Even if you had a fighter with an eidolon with legendary proficiency and Act Together, the numbers still work out better for flurry ranger with an animal companion on every attack except for the first one.
I... really think you should run the numbers. Because Flurry Ranger with Animal Companion is at the very bottom of the damage chart. Fighter alone outdamages it, so when you add an Eidolon with Act Together, you are nearly doing double the Ranger damage.
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I... really think you should run the numbers. Because Flurry Ranger with Animal Companion is at the very bottom of the damage chart. Fighter alone outdamages it, so when you add an Eidolon with Act Together, you are nearly doing double the Ranger damage.I also don't think there is a good way of doing a full two-martial hybrid character. That just seems too powerful and would overshadow all of the one-martial character classes that already exist, or even the one-martial with minion companion character options.Even if you had a fighter with an eidolon with legendary proficiency and Act Together, the numbers still work out better for flurry ranger with an animal companion on every attack except for the first one.
So you are telling me a Ranger with Animal Companion (let's say Cat cuz the agile/dex ones are best apparently) with a shortbow doing something like Hunt Prey > Hunted Shot > Command an Animal (Stride + Strike) Turn 1, then Hunted Shot > Assisting Shot (Yay archer dedication) > Command an Animal (Strike, Strike) with Flurry Edge...is really bad? :(
Companions when compared to normal PC are subpar in HP, Saves, Skills AC, hit and damage.
Yet they are good option as 3º action usage, excellent to flank and help in many combat maneuvers like trip and also don't share MAP with you.
That said for a flurry ranger (specially the two-handed ones in highest levels) due the low MAP the companion 3rd action is less useful than just strike more. Yet many people forget that they still have independency after being mature (so they always have an action for free) so they still can help specially to flat-foot or has mount to increase your range and move speed.
So you are telling me a Ranger with Animal Companion (let's say Cat cuz the agile/dex ones are best apparently) with a shortbow doing something like Hunt Prey > Hunted Shot > Command an Animal (Stride + Strike) Turn 1, then Hunted Shot > Assisting Shot (Yay archer dedication) > Command an Animal (Strike, Strike) with Flurry Edge...is really bad? :(
Yes, it's quite bad. Not uterly bad as this is PF2 so most builds are very close to each other, but clearly not one of the highest damage range martial build.
For example, compared to a Fighter with Hunted Shot and Bear Animal Companion for its support ability (the low levels are not proper, as I've counted Assisting Shot on your build, so it's better to look at level 10+ to see the real efficiency of both builds):But anyway, it's not really the aim of the discussion.