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I've put together a Strategy Guide
I'd really appreciate some more ideas about strategy and synergies in combat. I have a fair bit down but I know I am also missing much. Any thoughts?
You finally released it!
But I remember it was way bigger. Is my memory failing me?
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You finally released it!
But I remember it was way bigger. Is my memory failing me?
This is part of another document with more detail. So no your memory isn't failing you. I'm trying to cut it down. As in present the options. Without rambling on too much
I'm trying to present ideas and give examples, without printing a dictionary.
Writing well is hard.
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The In Combat section lists some basic tactics, but would benefit from more instructions on when to use those tactics. For example, Deny them Actions is a great tactic against an enemy who hits harder than the party, but worse against enemies who hit softer than the party, because denying actions is one or two actions to deny one action. Use this tactic against a boss, not a mob.
The overall principle that my players use is denying their opponent their expertise. If an enemy is great at melee, attack at range. If an enemy is great at range, charge at them in melee. If an enemy is a roomful of warriors, face them two at a time at a chokepoint. If an enemy is a pair of rogues, deny them flanking position by constantly moving or engaging them separately. If an enemy is a glass cannon, i.e., strong effect and weak defense, taken them down first. Healers with weak defense count, too. If an enemy is a tortoise, i.e., strong defense and weak effect, delay them while taking out the other enemies. If an enemy war band is organized and rigid in routine, ambush them on their patrol. If an enemy war band is unorganized and flexible, hit hard and retreat before they can group.
I have seen my players adopt what would be bad tactics against an enemy on whom the tactic worked well. An extreme example was the archer rogue riding the sorcerer in Dragon Form (thus, they had only two actions per turn each) in order to avoid an enemy who was a master at melee combat: talking about versatility in tactics.
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- "Work out your melee combat routine" sounds like it's assuming that everyone should have a primary melee combat routine. For some folks, the "melee combat routine" is "get the heck out of melee combat" and/or "shoot them from up close, rather than far away". It's only really problematic if the enemy has an opportunity attack.
- Link on "extending rune" is very broken.
- Martials need a third action because they've attacked twice and are crippled by MAP. Casters need a third action because they just cast a two-action spell.
- Party synergy. This one is big. It's a lot easier to have one character who's good at forced move and another who's good at creating hazardous terrain than to try to fit them both on the same character. Having one person who's good at trip and another who's good at intimidate works better than having two that are good at only one or the other, or trying to fit both on the same character. You don't need everyone to be the party face. If you've got a rogue, then having other party members who are good at inflicting flat-footed is suddenly quite useful. Bon Mot is useless unless you have someone in the party who really likes to attack the will saves... in which case it is awesome. So on and so forth. Talking things out with your fellow party members and working out combos like that can pay real dividends.
- Associated: How tightly packed do you want to be? In general it can be worthwhile to have everyone relatively loose (helps avoid area effect damage) but certain builds get a lot of benefits out of having everyone close together. Champions (especially paladins) and Marshals are definitely on the list. If everyoen wants to stay loose, that's cool. If you have one person who wants everyone to cluster up, and everyone else wants to stay loose, they're likely going to be kind of frustrated. If you have multiple people who want to stay close together, you can start to get some real benefits out of it.
I think that is rather good.
I would almost rather stick to the general plans rather than going into details of particular combos, but that is just a personal preference.
One typo edit. Second sentence of the "In Combat" section:
Not that once the party is engaged ...
I'm pretty sure that should be "Note".
And one disagreement. I don't think it is necessary to get flanking at the cost of being in a risky position. There are other ways of giving the flat-footed condition. Flanking is nice because it doesn't involve any check rolls or add to MAP. But grapple, trip, feint, and probably a handful of other things all also apply flat-footed and should be at least mentioned along side flanking.
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The In Combat section lists some basic tactics, but would benefit from more instructions on when to use those tactics. For example, Deny them Actions is a great tactic against an enemy who hits harder than the party, but worse against enemies who hit softer than the party, because denying actions is one or two actions to deny one action. Use this tactic against a boss, not a mob.
Would you not want to deny actions from a group of mooks that outnumber you 2:1? Walls, illusions, slow 6, overwhelming presence, etc all strip away actions from several enemies with a single use.
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... Bon Mot is useless unless you have someone in the party who really likes to attack the will saves...
Bon Mot also debuffs Perception which aids Stealth and Feint.
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The In Combat section lists some basic tactics, but would benefit from more instructions on when to use those tactics. For example, Deny them Actions is a great tactic against an enemy who hits harder than the party, but worse against enemies who hit softer than the party, because denying actions is one or two actions to deny one action. Use this tactic against a boss, not a mob.Would you not want to deny actions from a group of mooks that outnumber you 2:1? Walls, illusions, slow 6, overwhelming presence, etc all strip away actions from several enemies with a single use.
Gortle's examples for Denying Actions were, "Grapple, Trip, cast Slow." Those deny actions to individuals. I interpreted "cast Slow" as 3rd-level Slow rather than 6th-level Slow, which does have multiple targets. Perhaps I was mistaken.
Denying actions to a group has different mathematics than denying actions to an individual. Some anti-group tactics, such as walls, also deny actions to allies, so the party has to be in agreement about the tactical need.
The tactical mathematics (hurray, I get to talk math!) is whether the action to deny actions to enemies costs them more than it costs you. For example, if the party is fighting a boss 3 levels higher than them, then the boss's Strikes are 2.8 times as effective as the party's Strikes (on average, because cases vary). Thus, spending 1 actions to prevent the boss's Strike is better than making your own Strikes. But for an equal-level enemy, the Strikes are roughly equally effective, so 1 actions to prevent 1 Strike is not economical in the action economy. But 1 actions, such as casting 6th-level Slow, to deny 1 action each to 6 equal-level enemies is worth the action cost.
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... Bon Mot is useless unless you have someone in the party who really likes to attack the will saves...Bon Mot also debuffs Perception which aids Stealth and Feint.
Well... throwing a bon mot just to help out a feint or two seems like it might wind up being more resources than the payoff is really worth.
At the same time, you're quite correct. I was imprecise. I acknowledge it. Regardless, I think that the overall point I was making holds up pretty well.
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... Bon Mot is useless unless you have someone in the party who really likes to attack the will saves...Bon Mot also debuffs Perception which aids Stealth and Feint.
and illusions.
Yes only take it if it is going to be useful.
Thanks everyone, for the feedback so far.
You kind of have the below covered, but I think some statements more explicitly covering the below wouldn't go wrong:
Don't spend 3 actions attacking
Use abilities that debuff enemies, like trip. Fighter feats like Knockdown can be nice by allowing you to both strike for damage and trip, without gaining MAP for either until both things are complete.
Power of feats can be hidden, strong feats will often combine two different actions for a lesser action cost or eliminate a penalty. See Knockdown above.
You don't need a dedicated healer in the sense of having someone with spell slots or even focus spells to spend on it. But I would say it's advisable at least one person in the party spend skill increases and skill feats on Medicine. Arguably medicine is better than magical healing IMO. Magical healing is better for oh shit moments, while the medicine skill should be used to heal up between combats....speaking of which it should be stated that the game mechanics basically assume you'll be helped up to (nearly) full between each fight. Make sure both GMs and players understand that stringing fights together can be a lot more challenging than you might expect.
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Don't spend 3 actions attacking
Well, 3 individual attack actions: it's fine to spend 3 actions to on activities like Impossible Volley so it should be clear which 'actions' it's talking about.
Added a section on Spell Selection which is an update you may not have noticed in my Sorcerer Guide
Don't spend 3 actions striking
Sort of, but not quite. Like doing knockdown for 2 active followed by a strike is a bad idea.
Maybe we should phrase it as "never make an attack when you have -8 MAP or more" but that doesn't roll off the tongue
Love the guide, specially because it is not too long.
One little thing I would add is a reminder that letting other players know your intentions is the best way to coordinate ("I'm going to slow them with magic" or "I'm hurt, I'll fight from afar"), and is something that can be done in-character, with no need to metagame in any capacity. Players can speak mid combat and out of their turn. From experience, it also makes turns go faster.
Looks like you covered nearly every base and kept it like a style guide reference. Short, easy to use ideas formatted in a relatively easy to read format.
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Don't spend 3 actions strikingSort of, but not quite. Like doing knockdown for 2 active followed by a strike is a bad idea.
Maybe we should phrase it as "never make an attack when you have -8 MAP or more" but that doesn't roll off the tongue
Mind your MAP.
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Forceful weapons might be nice to add to the list of bonuses compatible with Flurry of Attacks builds.
But there is only one Forceful and Agile Weapon. The Hand Adze which is just d4
Personally I prefer the Dogslicer
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Forceful weapons might be nice to add to the list of bonuses compatible with Flurry of Attacks builds.But there is only one Forceful and Agile Weapon. The Hand Adze which is just d4
Personally I prefer the Dogslicer
But there are a couple of Monk feats;
Falling StoneFlashing Spark
Gorilla Slam
Forceful weapons might be nice to add to the list of bonuses compatible with Flurry of Attacks builds.But there is only one Forceful and Agile Weapon. The Hand Adze which is just d4
Personally I prefer the Dogslicer
But there are a couple of Monk feats;
Falling Stone
Flashing Spark
Gorilla Slam
Can you add agile to any of them?
Honestly, I knew most of this stuff, but there are a few pieces of advice that I hadn't considered.
So even for someone who is familiar with PF2, this document has some useful tips.
Fairly nice read I may share it with some of my table
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Don't spend 3 actions strikingSort of, but not quite. Like doing knockdown for 2 active followed by a strike is a bad idea.
Maybe we should phrase it as "never make an attack when you have -8 MAP or more" but that doesn't roll off the tongue
Even that’s not universal. There are situations where making a third attack at -10 may be the best choice.
Like say your bard critically succeeded an inspire heroics on you, the enemy is clumsy 3 from synesthesia for just this round, and the rogue just moved into flank with you.
In that case, swing away.
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Don't spend 3 actions strikingSort of, but not quite. Like doing knockdown for 2 active followed by a strike is a bad idea.
Maybe we should phrase it as "never make an attack when you have -8 MAP or more" but that doesn't roll off the tongue
Even that’s not universal. There are situations where making a third attack at -10 may be the best choice.
Like say your bard critically succeeded an inspire heroics on you, the enemy is clumsy 3 from synesthesia for just this round, and the rogue just moved into flank with you.
In that case, swing away.
Also Oozes.
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Can you add agile to any of them?Forceful weapons might be nice to add to the list of bonuses compatible with Flurry of Attacks builds.But there is only one Forceful and Agile Weapon. The Hand Adze which is just d4
Personally I prefer the Dogslicer
But there are a couple of Monk feats;
Falling Stone
Flashing Spark
Gorilla Slam
They dont have the agile trait (which is better IMO)
For Fiery Body
Oscillating Wave psychic has option to altering energy: Adding energy does immune to cold instead maybe.
That is just resistance. It is a good amount of fire or cold resistance. That can be useful yes.
Cool. Just had a quick skim through, looks good.
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A hit and run approach can also be valid, especially for Monk, people with reach weapons, etc. Stride up, Strike, and then fall back. If you stay there, they can use all three actions against you. Falling back spends one of your actions for one action from each enemy.
In general - consider how your positioning affects what an enemy has to do to attack you. If you can force them to spend actions positioning to attack then you just robbed them of an action without a saving throw.
This is good advice, but requires consideration (I think someone already pointed out). That consideration is that this kiting tactic is great on an enemy that is higher level or is known to have particularly nasty multi-action attacks. You deny them their nasty attack by moving or force them to waste an action by moving, which could have been a strike (but a higher level creature has a stronger strike than your PC).
However against lower level creatures on or level creatures without strong multi-action abilities you're giving up an action to deny an enemy a less valuable or equal valuable action.
Absolutely, if the enemy doesn't have strong ranged or spell casting it's usually much better to let the enemy come to you. Delay, get in position, use buff spells, items, etc are all better than rushing ahead to an enemy who can't hurt you until they get next to you.
Nice guide, Gortle! :-)
When you make the comparison to magic the gathering, you say a high mana curve when I think you mean a low mana curve. However, I think you should just cut that section. It takes too much explanation of magic to make your point.
I used the term because of the relative high amount on mana in the deck. Its been a few years so maybe the term havs changed or my memory is off. I'll re word it to avoid confusion.
I trimmed a lot of it out to remove identifying myself or other individuals. Its important to me. I trust readers to stop reading when they want. Which is why I moved the commentary to the end as an option.