I love PF2e but Utility / Control spells are so disappointing. Is there anything to improve them?

[Kasoh]

graystone wrote:

IMO, the reason the retort works is you coming up with your sick burn to counter the bon mot: It may not be as satisficing without the user there, it's satisfying enough to throw off the minuses. People yell at inanimate objects and can be satisfying while doing so. So I can see why it makes sense working that way.

I'm reminded of that episode of Seinfeld where this is a salient plot point.

[Captain Morgan]

I feel like plenty of action movie leads say a pithy one liner to the dead or unconscious bodies of their foes.

[breithauptclan]

You don't have to retort to the enemy who used Bon Mot at all in order to remove the penalties.

There are two options:

1) a single action that has the concentrate trait

2) an appropriate skill action to frame their retort

So the most common way that this Bon Mot retort is described is with option 2 with a skill check (such as Demoralize) or option 1 where your action has some sort of verbal sparring to it (but no skill check needed).

But option 1 can also just be a purely internal calming of yourself. Basically reminding yourself that you don't actually care what this annoying enemy thinks about you and your parentage.

[Red Griffyn]

The thing to realize about PF2e spells is that the baseline for a debuff/control spell is 'remove 1 action' or "take a -1 to X". Anything that can remove multiple actions or add a -1 for multiple rounds/on multiple opponents are ahead on the curve.

Each +1 to hit on a martial is a ~15-20% DPR increase because it increases your to hit by 5% but your crit range by 5% as well. Conversely if you can impose a -1 penalty to a creatures AC you have the same net impact.

So what are examples of spells ahead of that curve?

L1 - Magic Weapon - This gives a +1 to hit and a striking die. For L1-L3 this is amazing and puts martials ahead on the damage curve. Great for boss fights.

L1 - Illusory Object - This is honestly one of the best spells in the game and I'm surprised no one really mentioned it above. Combo this with a face wizard and take the L6 wizard feat 'convincing illusion' and you have long range/duration AOE control spell that you can possibly force a reroll on a successful save. This L1 spell can easily capture multiple creatures in it. Without a save they must use an action to disbelieve it, THEN they save to see if they disbelieve it. If they don't they have to keep burning actions or act as it is real. This is way better than 'lose an action on a failed save' rider effect of most spells. In practice probably half of creatures making the save will make it so 4 monsters would burn 4+2+1 actions. If you can follow-up with a second spell that burns more actions like rime slick then you can really lock down creatures. Its on a staff of illusion so you can be casting this all day with you're low level slots/staff charges. Beyond all that its still great for out of combat utility (hide behind that made up wall, rock, etc.).

L1 - Magic Missile - When facing bosses that are CR+1 to +2 this is the damage you're party needs. 2-3 full round 1st level magic missiles often contribute more damage than any martial on those bosses due to the really high AC and saves.

L2 - Rime Slick - forcing enemies prone is basically another 1 action burn. But this causes difficult terrain to leave and leaves ice on the map. It isn't immediately obvious but ice is great for control. Ice counts as difficult terrain AND uneven ground. Uneven ground requires a acrobatics balance check (1 action) and on a fail you must remain still OR fall prone (crit fail causes you to fall). Uneven ground also states "Each time you are hit by an attack or fail a save on uneven ground, you must succeed at a Reflex save (with the same DC as the Acrobatics check to Balance) or fall prone." So if you fall prone you spend 1 action to stand, 1 action to balance with a good chance of going nowhere or falling back down and likely 1 more action to even get out because you're in difficult terrain (no strikes/damage/full turn burned). If you are still on ice at the end of your turn, any errant attack or failed save on say an electric arc can knock you down requiring minimum 2 actions to stand/balance again.

L3 - Fear - While L1 fear is a good backup spell for popping off on a boss, the L3 version, especially with a metamagic reach is a great fight opener. Better than fireball because it can set up a second round spell if there are -1 or -2. If you manage to get a crit fail that is 3 actions burned as well. This is a staple spell for all levels.

L3/6/9 - Heroism - Could give a +1/+2/+3 to hit. Great for prebuffing, but because its only 10 minutes it'll really only last 2 combats if you try to speed run and burn resources to heal between combats vs. using medicine. This can turn fighters into super crit machines.

L6 - Slow - 10 creatures each losing 0-2 actions per round for 1-10 rounds. Great spell.

Overall you should avoid single target spells and spells that rely on failure/crit failure to cost actions. Also be open to different kinds of ways to lose actions. Sometimes its standing from prone, needing an extra move action to get out of difficult terrain, adding a slowed 1 condition, forcing an interact action to disbelieve an illusion, etc. If you can find spells that do multiple of thse you'll be 'ahead of the curve'.

If debuffing, not all conditions are the same. Something like sickened is a debuff and an action loss because you have to 'retch' for 1 action to try and clear the debuff.

That should give you some context for what is a good spell vs. bad spell in this system so you can better evaluate.

[Corvo Spiritwind]

JD Shock wrote:

...

I have no interest in martial classes or damage dealers. I like roles that allow me to have options to take advantage of a given situation or buff/debuff in a support role. Unfortunately in PF2e most of these types of spells are pretty weak when compared to 1e or other systems. ... snipped

This is kind of interesting since the new flow of 5e players on subreddit has been going a lot on about how casters are THE controllers and there was disappointment the weren't world ending damage dealers.

[Claxon]

JD Shock wrote:

I tend to avoid spells that rely on my group mates cooperating too much.

Pathfinder 2E is a terrible game for that attitude.

PF2 basically forces a party to coordinate and work together, or else everything will be a lot more challenging.

If you played PF1 as a game where you were mostly like individual characters that happened to be on the battlefield at the same time, not coordinating your actions and try to to do the same thing in PF2 you will have a bad time. Encounters will be much harder than you expect because you're not doing what you should.

PF2 basically mandates team work and coordination.

[Hilary Moon Murphy]

Captain Morgan wrote:

I feel like plenty of action movie leads say a pithy one liner to the dead or unconscious bodies of their foes.

The French even have a phrase for when you come up with the right reply after the person who insulted you is gone.

L'esprit d'escalier

I believe the ability to make a too-late retort to an absent foe is a humanoid right, even if it's not as satisfying in the moment.

[Fromper]

So I haven't played much 2e, and most of what I did play was 3 years ago, when it was completely new. I'm just getting back into it and trying to figure some stuff out, so this thread's been helpful.

I thought about making a typical buff/heal cleric early on, but I couldn't figure out what buffs I was supposed to go with if I did that. The limited range on Bless makes it seem useless. I just have to ask: Do cloistered clerics actually prepare and use that spell? I guess I can see it for a warpriest, who wants to be on the front line bashing things, but what buffs should a non-front line cleric be casting?

[Claxon]

Fromper wrote:

So I haven't played much 2e, and most of what I did play was 3 years ago, when it was completely new. I'm just getting back into it and trying to figure some stuff out, so this thread's been helpful.

I thought about making a typical buff/heal cleric early on, but I couldn't figure out what buffs I was supposed to go with if I did that. The limited range on Bless makes it seem useless. I just have to ask: Do cloistered clerics actually prepare and use that spell? I guess I can see it for a warpriest, who wants to be on the front line bashing things, but what buffs should a non-front line cleric be casting?

Keep in mind that creatures with Attacks of Opportunity are rare, that if you build for your AC is only going to be like 2 less than a martial character. And clerics have 8hp per level, compared to a fighter 10.

You're not as sturdy as a fighter, but you can be on the front lines and shouldn't be afraid to do so. Even if you aren't a warpriest spec.

[BretI]

Fromper wrote:

I thought about making a typical buff/heal cleric early on, but I couldn't figure out what buffs I was supposed to go with if I did that. The limited range on Bless makes it seem useless. I just have to ask: Do cloistered clerics actually prepare and use that spell? I guess I can see it for a warpriest, who wants to be on the front line bashing things, but what buffs should a non-front line cleric be casting?

I prefer Bane to give opponents a penalty. Works well against groups of creatures. Bless has the problem of not stacking with Inspire Courage so never take it if there is a Bard in the group.

Protection (which does cost a minor amount of ACP) is nice since it is cast and done.

Magic Weapon is the go to spell for early levels. Magic Weapon combined with Reach Spell metamagic is wonderful.

[Enchanter Tim]

Fromper wrote:

I thought about making a typical buff/heal cleric early on, but I couldn't figure out what buffs I was supposed to go with if I did that. The limited range on Bless makes it seem useless. I just have to ask: Do cloistered clerics actually prepare and use that spell? I guess I can see it for a warpriest, who wants to be on the front line bashing things, but what buffs should a non-front line cleric be casting?

Initially, I was of the same mindset when I saw the area of Bless, but lately I've started to come around on it. The main advantage is simply the total lack of any similar bonuses like it, especially at that level. Inspire Courage is the the main competitor, and yes, if you have a Bard in the group, prep something else. Though at higher levels, many bards switch to Dirge of Doom. But outside Inspire Courage, there's really no other status bonuses to hit until Heroism. This is one of the big differences from PF1e to PF2e.

Yes, the turn you cast Bless, the radius and effect might be minimal, but then you can increase it next turn, and a 10-foot effect is suddenly very useful. Plus, increasing the range is a nice third action and doesn't stop you from casting another spell that round. So there's some investment of actions that you need to consider for the payoff of giving most the party an rare attack bonus they wouldn't otherwise have. In this edition, most things don't stack, so getting a new type of bonus is very valuable.

[shroudb]

A note on bless:
You don't *have* to sustain each round to be active, unlike Inspire.

When you sustain it you increase the radius, but even if you don't sustain, it doesn't end unlike other sustained spells.