Best Archer builds


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Hi everyone. I'll be upfront. I'm a Pathfinder Player and I got hired to write about Pathfinder for a gaming website. The article this week is Top 5 Archer Builds. Here's the thing: I mostly play melee characters. So I'm a little lost.

My local group doesn't have many people who play archers so I'm hoping to do a little research here. Can you all help me out? I want to give good information and I figure this will be a good place to do that.


Pathfinder, or Pathfinder 2? Because that will make a big difference.

The other big question is how are the builds being rated? Maximum theoretical damage in an optimal round? Average damage against a typical enemy? Synergy with the other characters in the group? Versatility of doing things other than shooting stuff with a bow? Enjoyable and interesting character to play?

The Exchange

breithauptclan wrote:

Pathfinder, or Pathfinder 2? Because that will make a big difference.

The other big question is how are the builds being rated? Maximum theoretical damage in an optimal round? Average damage against a typical enemy? Synergy with the other characters in the group? Versatility of doing things other than shooting stuff with a bow? Enjoyable and interesting character to play?

Pathfinder 2E. I'm going with a mix of things like damage, synergy with party, and versatility.

I know Eldritch archer is going to be high on the list, if not #1


Which makes me think of another question: What level of build are you looking at? High level build? Or full range 1-20?

Eldritch Archer is pretty good. Starlit Span Magus is similar, but does its thing at level 1 instead of level 6 at the earliest.

Flurry Ranger also comes to mind immediately.


Starlit Span Magus: grab a psychic dedication for amp imaginary weapon and enjoy your big true strike+spell strike combo. Can hit weaknesses with a variety of cantrips. Option to either play a human or use adopted ancestry to get adapted cantrip divine lance to hit extra weaknesses (typically weakness to good). Arcane spells give it some flexibility to support the team since cantrips and focus points are more than enough for spellstrike.

Dual crossbow gunslinger: still counts as an archer. Use repeating hand crossbows and paired shots. If you can, grab the proficiency with unconventional weaponry. If not, either muddle through until 6 or maybe consider something else. Fake out gives another attacker a circumstance bonus as a reaction.

Rogue: dread striker gives it an easy way to flat-foot the enemy from range and its skills and legendary perception are always nice to have. Requires a reliable source of fear like a bard with dirge though.

Bow fighter: pretty bland until 10, after which you have debilitating shot to slow targets. Very light on feats so you can easily go into switch hitting, a caster archetype, rogue for dread striker, eldritch archer, whatever really.

Ranger and monk both do the flurry thing. Just find something else to do with your remaining actions and you're done.

The Exchange

breithauptclan wrote:

Which makes me think of another question: What level of build are you looking at? High level build? Or full range 1-20?

I'm thinking a full range of levels.


gesalt wrote:
Ranger and monk both do the flurry thing. Just find something else to do with your remaining actions and you're done.

Yes. That is a good point.

Any type of Ranger can get Hunted Shot to do two attacks in one action. Flurry Ranger would be better if you are going to stay in one place and launch four arrows - because they have the Multiple Attack Penalty reduction to make their third and fourth arrows more accurate. Precision Ranger would probably be better if you are going to just do the two arrows for one action and something else for the other two actions of your turn.

Monk with Monastic Archer stance would be similar in that it can send off two arrows with one action and do something else with the rest of their turn.


RollingSwordsman wrote:
Top 5 Archer Builds.

Does it have to be archery? Are you interested in a Gunslinger or Crossbow based character - which plays very much like an archer?


If I base myself solely on damage and focus on archers (I don't know the Gunslinger well):

The very best uncontested build is the Starlit Span Magus. It starts a bit slowly, but once you get Psychic Dedication and a few levels you are really a step above the competition.

The Eldritch Archer is not bad in the proper hands, even if it's worse than the Magus (mostly because you need a truckload of levels to build it). Rogue makes for the best Eldritch Archers, Fighters are slightly behind.

You then have the classical Fighter, Precision and Flurry Ranger. All 3 are extremely close, even if the Flurry Ranger is consistently outdamaged by the 2 others. The Precision Ranger will do higher damage than the Fighter prior to level 10, but then the Fighter will start shining.

As you want builds, here's what you get:

Starlit Span Magus:
1 Familiar (Independent and Manual Dexterity so it can give you a Scroll of True Strike for free every 2 rounds)
2 Psychic Dedication (for Imaginary Weapon)
And that's it.

Eldritch Archer:
4 Dread Striker (to be able to grab Flat Footed at range)
6 Eldritch Archer
7 Battle Cry
8 Magical Trickster (double Sneak Attack on your Eldritch Shot, check with the GM as some dislike this rule)
9 Multitalented for Psychic Dedication (for Imaginary Weapon)
It's the Starlit Span Magus little brother.

Fighter:
1 Point Blank Shot
2 Beastmaster Dedication (for Bear Animal Companion Support ability that gives +1d8/2d8 damage)
4 Mature Beastmaster Companion
8 Incredible Beastmaster Companion (Nimble Companions are tougher)
9 Multitalented for Monk Dedication
10 Flurry of Blows
12 Ki Strike
14 Specialized Beastmaster Companion

Ranger (Precision or Flurry):
1 Hunted Shot
1 Natural Ambition for Gravity Weapon
2 Beastmaster Dedication (for Bear Animal Companion Support ability that gives +1d8/2d8 damage)
4 Mature Beastmaster Companion
8 Incredible Beastmaster Companion (Nimble Companions are tougher)
14 Specialized Beastmaster Companion

I've focused solely on damage because it's (quite) easy to compare 2 builds on damage. When it comes to utility, the Magus is still massive thanks to its access to a few high level Arcane spells. But for the other builds it really depends on what you like and as such I can hardly compare.


I think if you are a ranger and use a beastmaster animal companion, they don't benefit from hunt prey (ranger animal companion does). I ran a ranger with an animal companion (used a dromaesaur, for higher AC and better attacks)


SuperBidi wrote:

...

9 Multitalented for Monk Dedication
10 Flurry of Blows
12 Ki Strike

Just to note Flurry of Blows doesn't work with Archery even if you take Monastic Weaponry

All the extra animal companion feats are nice, but once you have the mature animal companion with its free action per turn they are optional.


Gortle wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:

...

9 Multitalented for Monk Dedication
10 Flurry of Blows
12 Ki Strike

Just to note Flurry of Blows doesn't work with Archery even if you take Monastic Weaponry

All the extra animal companion feats are nice, but once you have the mature animal companion with its free action per turn they are optional.

You're right, I forgot to take the Stance. You need Monastic Archer stance.

Fighter:
1 Point Blank Shot
2 Beastmaster Dedication (for Bear Animal Companion Support ability that gives +1d8/2d8 damage)
4 Mature Beastmaster Companion
8 Incredible Beastmaster Companion (Nimble Companions are tougher)
9 Multitalented for Monk Dedication
10 Flurry of Blows
12 Monastic Archer Stance
14 Ki Strike
16 Specialized Beastmaster Companion

So the Fighter gets good only at very high level. I'd rate the Precision Ranger higher then, as level 12/14 is very high.


Some simple builds:

Fighter Archer
Str 14 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Leather, Composite LongBow, a pair of Short Swords
Class Feats:
Level 1: Point-Blank Shot,
Level 2: Double Slice in case you choose to melee
Level 8: Felling Strike, or Incredible Aim
Level 10: Debilitating Shot,
Level 12: Incredible Ricochet
Level 18: Impossible Volley

Skills: Acrobatics, Stealth

I don't recommend Double Shot as it's quite marginal until you get Multishot Stance. There is space here to do other things.

Fighter Eldritch Archer
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 12 Cha 14
Basic equipment: Leather, Rapier, LongBow
Class Feats:
Level 1: Point-Blank Shot,
Level 2: Cavalier Dedication,
Level 4: Impressive Mount, also the skill feat Quick Mount to get out of the dedication,
Level 6: Eldritch Archer Dedication,
Level 8: Basic Eldritch Archer Spellcasting, later Felling Strike,
Level 10: Debilitating Shot,
Level 16: Phase Arrow

Skills: Acrobatics, Intimidation, Stealth
With Eldritch Shot your best cantrip is Telekinetic Projectile either arcane or primal and does force damage. You can put other spells through it. I did see a Telekinetic Maneuver used effectively. But the rest of your magic is often just cool little spells that are handy sometimes.


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I also realized I made a small mistake on my Eldritch Archer build: I took Imaginary Weapon. As Eldritch Archer lacks the Magus language that removes range limitation, some GMs will forbid the use of Imaginary Weapon with Eldritch Shot (or at least limit it to adjacent targets). So you may have to use Telekinetic Projectile instead, but it still has good value.


at lower level any dex non flurry ranger martial can take triple shot and double shot against the same target

very good in theory as long as they have a way to bypass resistance

at high level triangle shot maybe the strongest archer feat

multishot stance not far behind

eldrich archer scale better at most level

starlit span magus are amazing with a bow but maybe better with a thrown weapon


Rogue MasterMind
It is not that easy to get a Rogue to work with ranged weapons as it is tricky to get your sneak attack from flat footed. But they can make good archers. It is possible with the Kobold feat Grovel a ranged feint, and if you have a Bard with Dirge of Doom (or lots of Fear or Intimidation) then Dread Striker makes it too easy. But the way organic to the Rogue class is via Mastermind. Let's face it, it can be very fun to roleplay.

Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Leather, Rapier, ShortBow
Class Feats:
Level 1:Trap Finder
Level 2: Loremaster,
Level 4: Loremaster's Etude,
Level 6: Analyze Weakness,
Level 8: Inspired Stratagem
Level 10: Methodical Debilitations

Skills: Some relevant knowledge skills, Acrobatics, Thievery, Stealth, Medicine
Skill Feats: Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover for Loremaster Lore and your best knowledge skill

Monastic Archer
Yes Flurry of Blows and Ki Strike and Stunning Fist work with a bow. With your speed and manoeuvrability you should be able to keep at range from your enemies.
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Handwraps of Mighty Blows, Bracers of Armor and LongBow
Class Feats:
Level 1: Monastic Archer Stance, Ki Strike, - a human can get both via Natural Ambition
Level 2: Stunning Fist,
Level 4: Deflect Arrows,
Level 6: Return Fire ,
Level 8: Pinning Fire,
Level 10 Ki Blast (available earlier but had no space for it)
Level 12: Meditative Focus,
Level 18: Triangle Shot
Skills: Stealth, Acrobatics, Medicine
The feats Deflect Arrows, Return Fire are a pretty good use of your reaction. Even better if they are firing at you with low odds shots. Expect your GM to look sideways at you if you start asking your allies to send their third bow shot your way


The Gentleman Detective

Str 10 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 18 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, Rapier, Bow
Methodology: Empiricism
Class Feats:
Level 1: Known Weaknesses,
Level 2: Loremaster,
Level 4: Detective's Readiness,
Level 6: Loremaster's Etude, also take Orthographic Mastery as a skill feat
Level 8: Wizard Dedication for some magic options
Level 10 Suspect of Opportunity

Other options: Shared Stratagem, Didactic Strike, Athletic Strategist
This is an Investigator focused on knowledge and it's the build which is most true to the name of the class. The thing is he is a very effective archer. Most rounds he will try Devise a Stratagem against a target, if it doesn't look good he can choose another target with no multiple attack penalty. It is a bit like casting True Strike every round.

Skills: Various lore, Stealth, Thievery, Medicine
Skill Feats: Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover, Unmistakable Lore

The Oracle
Steeped in mysticism the Battle Oracle gets consumed by the need to fight.

Str 10 Dex 16 Con 10 Int 14 Wis 10 Cha 18
Basic equipment: Studded Leather, LongBow
Ancestry:Elf, Cavern Elf,
1st: Otherworldly Magic maybe Electric Arc
5th: Ageless Patience,
9th:Otherworldly Acumen for Illusory Creature or Mirror Image, 13th:Wandering Heart,
17th:Elf Step
Deity: Ragathiel [LG],
General Feats: Toughness,
Class Feats:
Level 2: Archer Dedication,
Level 4: Divine Access - Ragathiel for True Strike, Haste, Fire Shield,
Level 6: Point-Blank Shot,
Level 8: Debilitating Dichotomy - strong but think about timing and your curse,
Level 10: Quickened Casting,
Level 12: Divine Access - Moloch for Burning Hands, Acid Storm, Fiery Body,
Level 14: Mysterious Repertoire,
Level 16:,
Level 18: Divine Effusion,
Level 20: Oracular Providence
Focus Spell: Call to Arms and Weapon Surge
Skills: Stealth, Intimidation, Deception


25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:
at lower level any dex non flurry ranger martial can take triple shot and double shot against the same target

It's important to realize that Double Shot and Triple Shot are mostly reducing your damage output. These feats are only useful against very low or very high AC enemies and enemies immune to critical hits.

Outside critical immune enemies, you need to hit on a 5 or less or on a 10 or more on your first attack for Double Shot to increase your damage. Otherwise, it reduces it.


Gortle wrote:
But the way organic to the Rogue class is via Mastermind.

While I 1000% agree Mastermind is a fun class to play, it needs a BIG asterisk by it as it's dependent on Recall checks and they are notoriously open to table variance. Getting hit with Unique modifiers [+10] and/or Additional Knowledge modifiers [+5 to +10 per extra check] can suck the fun and usefulness out of the build.


graystone wrote:
Gortle wrote:
But the way organic to the Rogue class is via Mastermind.
While I 1000% agree Mastermind is a fun class to play, it needs a BIG asterisk by it as it's dependent on Recall checks and they are notoriously open to table variance. Getting hit with Unique modifiers [+10] and/or Additional Knowledge modifiers [+5 to +10 per extra check] can suck the fun and usefulness out of the build.

True but if the GM just decides to nerf a build, then what can you do. But I for one am not going to let a few uncooperative GM's out there spoil a build that is clearly supposed to work. At least this Rogue will be rolling twice for his first recall knowledge check in the rounds


Others have already mentioned the Magus, my version is a bit more fleshed out.

Starlight Span Magus
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Leather, Composite ShortBow, Bladed Scarf
Class Feats:
Level 2: Expansive SpellStrike,
Level 4: Force Fang,
Level 6: Cleric Dedication,
Level 8: Domain Initiate for Withering Grasp,
Level 10: StandbySpell,
Level 12: Conflux Focus,
Level 14: Arcane Shroud
Skills: Acrobatics, Arcane, Stealth

You are unlikely to be able to afford the actions to avoid the volley penalty, so a long bow is a bad idea. On the plus side you are more likely to be able to stand still as a ranged character and get a few consecutive SpellStrike rounds off. This type of Magus is going to be able to get off the most damage as a Magus in the long run. It really wants a mount if you can find space for it

Ranger
Other people have done a good job here.


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Gortle wrote:
graystone wrote:
Gortle wrote:
But the way organic to the Rogue class is via Mastermind.
While I 1000% agree Mastermind is a fun class to play, it needs a BIG asterisk by it as it's dependent on Recall checks and they are notoriously open to table variance. Getting hit with Unique modifiers [+10] and/or Additional Knowledge modifiers [+5 to +10 per extra check] can suck the fun and usefulness out of the build.
True but if the GM just decides to nerf a build, then what can you do. But I for one am not going to let a few uncooperative GM's out there spoil a build that is clearly supposed to work. At least this Rogue will be rolling twice for his first recall knowledge check in the rounds

My post is more for the OP than you, to note that it can encounter table variation.


would be nice for archer to have a caster with wealth domain to cast precious metals

only monk get adamantine bypass easily

adamantine ammo are very difficult to get

always bring cold iron blanch silversheen too

Shadow Lodge

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Gortle wrote:
graystone wrote:
Gortle wrote:
But the way organic to the Rogue class is via Mastermind.
While I 1000% agree Mastermind is a fun class to play, it needs a BIG asterisk by it as it's dependent on Recall checks and they are notoriously open to table variance. Getting hit with Unique modifiers [+10] and/or Additional Knowledge modifiers [+5 to +10 per extra check] can suck the fun and usefulness out of the build.
True but if the GM just decides to nerf a build, then what can you do. But I for one am not going to let a few uncooperative GM's out there spoil a build that is clearly supposed to work. At least this Rogue will be rolling twice for his first recall knowledge check in the rounds

There's a bit of a difference between 'nerfing a build' and 'applying the actual rules.' A Mastermind pretty much has to assume all the recall check rules apply unless otherwise specified (either by specific ability text or GM's discretion), just like a Thief has to with Stealth checks. I'm not aware of any elaboration on how this racket's mechanic is intended to work, so the printed rules are all we really have to work with.

The other thing to keep in mind about Masterminds is that keeping your racket mechanic maxed out will consume all your Legendary skill options:

  • Arcana: creatures of arcane significance.
  • Crafting: Alchemical creatures and constructs.
  • Nature: creatures of natural origin.
  • Occultism: creatures of occult significance.
  • Religion: creatures of religious significance.
  • Society: humanoids
Assuming you max out these six skills, that probably leaves you with one skill at Expert and everything else at Trained: It's certainly do-able, but you basically have to sacrifice being 'great' at any skill actions other than recalling knowledge (and maybe crafting), which may or may not be your cup of tea...


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Mastermind also has controversy over how it works if you need to fight six goblins in a row. There's a legit reading that once you've maxed out your knowledge on one (either by failing a check or attempting an incredibly hard check) your ability won't work on anything else which uses the same stat block.

I wouldn't run it that way, but I agree that nothing with massive table variance should be posted as a top tier build without a massive asterisk on it.


Yes. Mastermind Racket looks like it was the predecessor of Thaumaturge's Exploit Vulnerability. But Mastermind Racket doesn't work the same way with the way that it is currently written.

It could probably use a backport of Exploit Vulnerability - You can attempt the skill check against each creature individually (and maybe repeatedly). The DC is the same as for Recall Knowledge, though it doesn't increase for subsequent attempts. You can use the same roll and action as a Recall Knowledge check to get the benefit of Recall Knowledge, but that is not necessary in order to get the flat-footed benefit.

That may be the intent. But that isn't what is written.

The Exchange

Wow! Thanks, everyone!

Quick question about Monastic Archers. Can they get into melee like regular monks if they have to?


RollingSwordsman wrote:
Quick question about Monastic Archers. Can they get into melee like regular monks if they have to?

Yes. Nothing prevents them from using their normal melee fist attack. It doesn't even end the stance.

Edit: No, they can only make Strikes from the bow while in the stance. It just doesn't list that in the requirements, so you don't end the stance by making a melee strike. It is in the body text of the feat that prevents even trying to make a melee Strike.

They can switch to another melee stance like Tiger Stance or Dragon Stance if they want or need to.

Edit: Since the Monastic Archer stance does have the requirement of wielding the bow, you can end the stance by either dropping the bow as a free action or putting the bow away as an interact action.

Dark Archive

The top two archer options are:

1.) Starlight Span Magus MC Psychic for Imaginary Weapon

2.) Fighter MC into Ranger

Generic things to boost damage with bows are:

- Use the L9 skeleton feat bone missile (use your rib for the arrow lose 2hp but add 2 negative damage per arrow). Adds more damage to multi attack builds like option 1 or flurry rangers.

- Use the Hornagli Hornbow (1d8, no volley, 1d6 deadly down from 1d10). This nets more DPR for most builds than using the composite shortbow or having to use point blank on the longbow because that wasted action has a DPR consequence. The 40ft range can also be compensated for via the ranger dip as hunt prey removes 2nd range increment penalties and the ranger has the farshot feat to double the first range increment.

- Utilize a L9 or L13 ancestry feat that adds another +1 damage per arrow. Examples of these include Aasimar's Celestial Strikes at L13, Duskwalkers L9 spirit strikes, tiefling L13 fiendish strikes, etc. Now you can combine this with the skeleton above for an effective +3 damage per arrow, but some combinations (e.g., a skeleton duskwalker) are... lore abominations and should probably be avoided.

All other ranged weapons are worse than the comp shortbow or horngali hornbow except in a few early level ranges from gunslinger's singular expertise/large bore modification at L5. But once you get damage runes come online at L8 and the deadly trait adds a second dice and overtakes fatal at L12 with greater striking runes there aren't really any levels above L8 where a reload gun/crossbow will overtake an archer.

I ran some DPR calculations and discussions over here if you want to look at it.

https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43pau&page=3?The-new-class-balance-after-t he-release-of

The take away is that probably L1-L6 fighter archers are ahead, and after L6 the magus is probably ahead or on par for short combats but after 4-6 rounds fighters catch back up. If the magus can get a 2nd true strike amped imaginary weapon off then its hands down the magus at the top of the DPR pyramid. Here is some graphics for you.


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SuperBidi wrote:
I also realized I made a small mistake on my Eldritch Archer build: I took Imaginary Weapon. As Eldritch Archer lacks the Magus language that removes range limitation, some GMs will forbid the use of Imaginary Weapon with Eldritch Shot (or at least limit it to adjacent targets). So you may have to use Telekinetic Projectile instead, but it still has good value.

I think it is clear enough that Imaginary Weapon works. The extra wording under StarLight Span does not seem to be required. It is frustrating that Paizo do not use consistent language every where.


Psychic Magus

Hybrid Studies: Starlight Span
Str 10 Dex 18 Con 12 Int 16 Wis 12 Cha 10
Basic equipment: Leather, Composite ShortBow, Rapier
Class Feats:
Level 2: Expansive SpellStrike,
Level 2: Psychic Dedication,
Level 4: Basic Psychic Spellcasting,
Level 6: Psi Development,
Level 8: Striker's Scroll ,
Level 10:,
Level 12: Conflux Focus,
Level 14: Arcane Shroud
Skills: Acrobatics, Arcane, Stealth
The Psychic Cantrip Imaginary Weapon is the most damaging option you can get. It is however a Unique Psi Cantrip so you can’t get it till you can take Psi Development at level 6. But once you are here this build is perhaps the best ranged damage dealer in the game.

The Exchange

Since my real name and photo is going to be on the article, I'm not totally comfortable sharing the article itself.

Here's my top 5.

5. Rogue Dread Striker (For versatility. Everyone needs a skill monkey)
4. Flurry Ranger (Some decent survival skills, animal companions and a lot of arrows shot)
3. Monastic Archer (A lot of arrows shot and adamantine bypass)
2. Eldritch Archer (Magic bypassing resistance)
1. Starlit Span Magus (Lots of damage)

What are some good feats for dread striker?

I appreciate everyone's help with this.


RollingSwordsman wrote:
What are some good feats for dread striker?

Try Nimble dodge and Inspired Stratagem as you don't otherwise have much use for your reaction.

Mobility or Skirmish Strike
Precise Debilitations

The Exchange

Thank you.

As my typical characters tend to follow the strategy of squishing things with eartbreakers until they cease being alive, I'm... Finding a lot of new Paths here. I may try Starlit Span Magus for the upcoming Kingmaker game.

Yes, I am the guy at the table with the bad puns :)


Gortle wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
I also realized I made a small mistake on my Eldritch Archer build: I took Imaginary Weapon. As Eldritch Archer lacks the Magus language that removes range limitation, some GMs will forbid the use of Imaginary Weapon with Eldritch Shot (or at least limit it to adjacent targets). So you may have to use Telekinetic Projectile instead, but it still has good value.
I think it is clear enough that Imaginary Weapon works. The extra wording under StarLight Span does not seem to be required. It is frustrating that Paizo do not use consistent language every where.

Not from a very strict RAW reading. And from an RAI reading you can see an intent under the Starlit Span extra wording.

Every time I bring a rule where there's some dissent I prefer to state it, even if the dissent is small. And I have a few examples where Paizo decided to clarify a ruling against what everyone was believing (Finesse + Athletics), so numbers are not an accurate measure of a rule validity.

Dark Archive

RollingSwordsman wrote:

Since my real name and photo is going to be on the article, I'm not totally comfortable sharing the article itself.

Here's my top 5.

5. Rogue Dread Striker (For versatility. Everyone needs a skill monkey)
4. Flurry Ranger (Some decent survival skills, animal companions and a lot of arrows shot)
3. Monastic Archer (A lot of arrows shot and adamantine bypass)
2. Eldritch Archer (Magic bypassing resistance)
1. Starlit Span Magus (Lots of damage)

What are some good feats for dread striker?

I appreciate everyone's help with this.

The Fighter MC Ranger is definitely ahead of the monk/flurry ranger.

Here is the DPR graph for 3 and 4 attack turns between and optimized flurry ranger and fighter MC ranger (fighter is winner in all rounds). This gap will grow for the monk since they don't have any accuracy boosters on their followup attacks like the flurry ranger.


Red Griffyn wrote:
RollingSwordsman wrote:

Since my real name and photo is going to be on the article, I'm not totally comfortable sharing the article itself.

Here's my top 5.

5. Rogue Dread Striker (For versatility. Everyone needs a skill monkey)
4. Flurry Ranger (Some decent survival skills, animal companions and a lot of arrows shot)
3. Monastic Archer (A lot of arrows shot and adamantine bypass)
2. Eldritch Archer (Magic bypassing resistance)
1. Starlit Span Magus (Lots of damage)

What are some good feats for dread striker?

I appreciate everyone's help with this.

The Fighter MC Ranger is definitely ahead of the monk/flurry ranger.

Here is the DPR graph for 3 and 4 attack turns between and optimized flurry ranger and fighter MC ranger (fighter is winner in all rounds). This gap will grow for the monk since they don't have any accuracy boosters on their followup attacks like the flurry ranger.

If you want to maximize DPR on bow Rangers, the Bear Animal Companion is a strong improvement. I'm not sure the Fighter still beats the Flurry Ranger if you add one. And the Precision Ranger beats both normally once you add the Bear.

Dark Archive

Red Griffyn wrote:
RollingSwordsman wrote:

Since my real name and photo is going to be on the article, I'm not totally comfortable sharing the article itself.

Here's my top 5.

5. Rogue Dread Striker (For versatility. Everyone needs a skill monkey)
4. Flurry Ranger (Some decent survival skills, animal companions and a lot of arrows shot)
3. Monastic Archer (A lot of arrows shot and adamantine bypass)
2. Eldritch Archer (Magic bypassing resistance)
1. Starlit Span Magus (Lots of damage)

What are some good feats for dread striker?

I appreciate everyone's help with this.

The Fighter MC Ranger is definitely ahead of the monk/flurry ranger.

Here is the DPR graph for 3 and 4 attack turns between and optimized flurry ranger and fighter MC ranger (fighter is winner in all rounds). This gap will grow for the monk since they don't have any accuracy boosters on their followup attacks like the flurry ranger.

If you want a build it would be:

L1 - Point Blank Stance or Exacting Strike
L2 - Ranger Dedication
L4 - Ranger - Hunted Shot
L6 - Ranger - Gravity Weapon
L8 - Ranger - Far Shot (extend the horngali hornbow to 80ft for 1st increment, double that for hunted prey shots from ranger feature)
L9 - Fighter - Felling Strike or Incredible Aim
L10 - Ranger - Animal Feature (gives you a flying focus spell, great for an archer)
L12 - Fearsome Brute (alot of extra damage on frightened enemies if you have someone to put that on an enemy for you, otherwise invest in intimidate and the battlecry skill feat)
L14 - Stance Savant (free action to enter point blank stance for +2 circumstance damage, doesn't stack with fearsome brute)
L15 - w/e (limited to fighter feats)
L16 - w/e
L18 - Savage Critical or Impossible Volley
L20 - Savage Critical or Impossible Volley

You would use skeleton feats to be human, or adopt yourself to some humans to get unconventional weaponry to get the horngali hornbow.

There would even be an opportunity to dip bard using the L10/L12 feats to pick up inspire courage so your 4 attack turns are inspire courage + 3 attacks which is essentially equivalent to the flurry ranger damage, but you're adding a +1 to hit for everyone else. I don't have math powers to calculate it but, because the fighter's +2 can lead to more crits, you could strap a fearsome/greater fearsome rune on instead of a 1D6 damage rune (lose 3.5 average damage per shot) but with fearsome brute and the -1 or -2 penalty you can probably equal that out at higher levels while providing a similar party net buff. That is probably the most damaging version.

Edit - I was double counting skeleton bone missiles on the ranger flurry options so the DPR gap is larger than previously shown. I also added in the +2 damage from PBS at L14 from stance savant

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SuperBidi wrote:
If you want to maximize DPR on bow Rangers, the Bear Animal Companion is a strong improvement. I'm not sure the Fighter still beats the Flurry Ranger if you add one. And the Precision Ranger beats both normally once you add the Bear.

You're probably right. My gut feel says it'd only be somewhat useful up to L8. Animal Companions drop off pretty quickly (especially after the recent nerfs this year). In my experience animal companions are good for soaking 1-2 hits, which given their bad stats are almost always crits putting them into the ground. So you might be able to get 1-2 rounds of the support benefit before you or someone else has to spend limited resources and multiple actions trying to keep them up.


would go with double shot feat chain for fighter

far shot and animal feature are great though

if free archetype can even get hunter vision at level 20


Red Griffyn wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
If you want to maximize DPR on bow Rangers, the Bear Animal Companion is a strong improvement. I'm not sure the Fighter still beats the Flurry Ranger if you add one. And the Precision Ranger beats both normally once you add the Bear.
You're probably right. My gut feel says it'd only be somewhat useful up to L8. Animal Companions drop off pretty quickly (especially after the recent nerfs this year). In my experience animal companions are good for soaking 1-2 hits, which given their bad stats are almost always crits putting them into the ground. So you might be able to get 1-2 rounds of the support benefit before you or someone else has to spend limited resources and multiple actions trying to keep them up.

Quite the opposite. Nimble Animal Companions have pretty high AC, equivalent to full plate martials roughly (even if the Bear has -1 to AC due to its low starting Dex). They attract few attention (maybe more at low level) and if the Animal Companion hadn't been the target of the enemy you'd be sinking these limited resources on your Fighter who would be close to 0.

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25speedforseaweedleshy wrote:

would go with double shot feat chain for fighter

far shot and animal feature are great though

if free archetype can even get hunter vision at level 20

Unless you're facing CR-2 or lower creatures, double shot and triple shot are DPR losses. The bow's damage largely comes from the deadly dice or the 1D8 base damage die from using a hornagli hornbow. The penalty to hit is a bigger debuff to DPR than you'd imagine it would be, so its better to have 1 strike at no penalty and a -5 strike vs. 2 strikes at -2.

Farshot is a big Quality of Life improvement for the horngali hornbow since doubling your range increments on a 40ft bow can make the difference in more open combats. That is doubled again for your hunted prey since you don't suffer range penalties in your first 2 range increments with that class feature. Animal feature is awesome for the mid game ability to fly. Everyone knows theres nothing more annoying than a flying archer gattling gun and this comes online way before other class feats (typically a L14-16 feat for some classes) or flying armor runes.

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SuperBidi wrote:
Red Griffyn wrote:
SuperBidi wrote:
If you want to maximize DPR on bow Rangers, the Bear Animal Companion is a strong improvement. I'm not sure the Fighter still beats the Flurry Ranger if you add one. And the Precision Ranger beats both normally once you add the Bear.
You're probably right. My gut feel says it'd only be somewhat useful up to L8. Animal Companions drop off pretty quickly (especially after the recent nerfs this year). In my experience animal companions are good for soaking 1-2 hits, which given their bad stats are almost always crits putting them into the ground. So you might be able to get 1-2 rounds of the support benefit before you or someone else has to spend limited resources and multiple actions trying to keep them up.
Quite the opposite. Nimble Animal Companions have pretty high AC, equivalent to full plate martials roughly (even if the Bear has -1 to AC due to its low starting Dex). They attract few attention (maybe more at low level) and if the Animal Companion hadn't been the target of the enemy you'd be sinking these limited resources on your Fighter who would be close to 0.

Are you sure about that? That AC doesn't sound right to me. Maybe I've overlooked animal companions, but I thought they had low AC, low to hit, low HP and were basically good for a slowed 1-2. They themselves aren't a threat which is why they might not attract attention, but if they are suddenly adding 1D8-2D8 on 2-4 strikes per turn, they'll become one. You're also burning 1 action per turn to get the support benefit so you'll lose a 3rd/worst case MAP attack to get support benefits + 1 Animal companion attack.

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SuperBidi wrote:
Quite the opposite. Nimble Animal Companions have pretty high AC, equivalent to full plate martials roughly (even if the Bear has -1 to AC due to its low starting Dex). They attract few attention (maybe more at low level) and if the Animal Companion hadn't been the target of the enemy you'd be sinking these limited resources on your Fighter who would be close to 0.

So for the ranger animal companion difference between the fighter in heavy armour and the companion is:

L1 - 3
L2 - 3
L3 - 3
L4 - 3
L5 - 4
L6 - 3
L7 - 3
L8 - 3
L9 - 3
L10 - 2
L11 - 4
L12 - 4
L13 - 4
L14 - 4
L15 - 4
L16 - 0
L17 - 2
L18 - 3
L19 - 3
L20 - 3

For a Beastmaster companion where you sink L14, L16, and L18 feats into additional dex boosting specializations it is:

L1 - N/A
L2 - 3
L3 - 3
L4 - 2
L5 - 3
L6 - 3
L7 - 3
L8 - 1
L9 - 1
L10 - 2
L11 - 4
L12 - 4
L13 - 4
L14 - 0
L15 - 0
L16 - (-1)
L17 - 1
L18 - 1
L19 - 1
L20 - 1

The ranger companion feats are all 2 levels delayed and you can't stack the latter feats to boost their dex/armor class. As a ranger you'd be better to take the beast-master archetype than using your own class feats. There are still some pretty big differentials there from L2-L12 where the maximal dex based companions are at a 2-4 AC penalty (or -1 worse for bear). Also any strike a bear makes will be garbage since it doesn't have a finesse weapon and its STR will be lagging due to your focus on dex.

If you wanted the bears support benefit you'd almost be better to get two animal companions from the beastmaster and use the beastmaster's call L12 feat to summon a fictional bear for the support benefit and leave a proper dex based/finesse animal companion for the free action to stride or strike.

In terms of HP you're looking at 58-68% that of a standard fighter who takes toughness and does no other shenanigans (i.e., dwarven L9 feat, golem crafter, or multiclass hp feats). Essentially for large portions of the early game and unless you run the treadmill for L14-L18 feats you'll be shoving a caster with no shield into melee and hoping things don't trounce it.


Ok, my 2 cents.

1. Starlit Span Magus with Psychic dedication. Completely online at level 6 with imaginary weapon, it is 100% the best option damage wise.

2. Precision Ranger with Animal Companion. You need Hunted Shot, the base AC feat so you can apply the precision damage with your animal partner's attacks and Beastmaster archetype for a faster AC progression (it also allows you to swap ACs based on the situation and the extra movement you get with the level 4 ability is not restricted based on who is your prey). Better done as Human due to Natural Ambition. Not only does good damage, but adds a body in the frontlines and can get supportive feats through Warden's Boon and the likes.

3. Eldritch Archer Fighter. Best way of building this is getting a caster archetype at 2, grab a good attack roll focus spell and delay Eldritch Archer dedication to level 8. Sacrificing those 2 levels will set you up for success for the remaining ones. You can also retrain if you know you will be given the time. Pick debilitating Shot at 10 as well.

4. Fighter with Ranger Dedication. Grab Hunted Shot ASAP. You are now a ranger with a +2 to attack edge. Try to pick anything that boosts your damage along the way, like Gravity Weapon. If Treasure Vault adds a bow with the monk trait and you are starting at level 10+, Fighter with Monk dedication, Monastic Archer Stance and Flurry of Blows would also work, which would allow you to use Heavenseeker's Heaven's Thunder, which you can fit at level 12.

5. Not sure what I would put here to be honest. I can think of more good ranged builds, just not bow ones specifically. I guess either Flurry Ranger or Weapon Inventor, but the first is not close at all to the other 4 and the later just uses a bow, but it is not a particularly good archer, it's strength lies elsewhere. I also considered Eldritch Archer Investigator, but I think it is a direct, inferior version of the fighter build.


Red Griffyn wrote:
So for the ranger animal companion difference between the fighter in heavy armour and the companion is:

I realize I missed the nerf to Animal Companions. But still, your numbers are off. Your forgot about barding. Also most martials get to Expert at level 13. It looks like you missed the Master proficiency at level 19.

Level 1-3: 0, +1 against the Bear
Level 4: 0
Level 5-10: +1 for the martial
Level 11-12: +2 for the martial
Level 13: +4 for the martial
Level 14-17: 0, +1 against the Bear
Level 18: +1 for the martial, +2 against the Bear
Level 19-20: +3 for the martial, +4 against the Bear

And that's compared to a Full Plate martial. Against a normal martial, the Bear has the same AC during 14 of the 20 levels. So the AC is slightly behind what I'm used to because of the nerf, but still quite valid. There are just a bunch of bad levels, considering that 3 of them are the very last ones.

Red Griffyn wrote:
In terms of HP you're looking at 58-68% that of a standard fighter who takes toughness and does no other shenanigans

And that's massive. We are speaking of a creature that's just there to give you +1d8/+2d8 damage at the cost of an action. So attacking it is certainly the best way to waste attacks.

The only case where the Bear can be an issue is againt AoE damage. It's still not the common case.

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SuperBidi wrote:
Red Griffyn wrote:
So for the ranger animal companion difference between the fighter in heavy armour and the companion is:

I realize I missed the nerf to Animal Companions. But still, your numbers are off. Your forgot about barding. Also most martials get to Expert at level 13. It looks like you missed the Master proficiency at level 19.

Level 1-3: 0, +1 against the Bear
Level 4: 0
Level 5-10: +1 for the martial
Level 11-12: +2 for the martial
Level 13: +4 for the martial
Level 14-17: 0, +1 against the Bear
Level 18: +1 for the martial, +2 against the Bear
Level 19-20: +3 for the martial, +4 against the Bear

And that's compared to a Full Plate martial. Against a normal martial, the Bear has the same AC during 14 of the 20 levels. So the AC is slightly behind what I'm used to because of the nerf, but still quite valid. There are just a bunch of bad levels, considering that 3 of them are the very last ones.

Red Griffyn wrote:
In terms of HP you're looking at 58-68% that of a standard fighter who takes toughness and does no other shenanigans

And that's massive. We are speaking of a creature that's just there to give you +1d8/+2d8 damage at the cost of an action. So attacking it is certainly the best way to waste attacks.

The only case where the Bear can be an issue is againt AoE damage. It's still not the common case.

Nothing gives you higher than expert in barding or unarmoured defense. You can cap out at:

- 10 + 4 + Level + 6 for barding
- 10 + 4 + Level + 10 for starting 16 Dex animal companions and 3 dex bumping specializations using your L14, L16, and L18 feats.

A fighter caps out at:
- 10 + 6 + Level + 6 + 3 for runes

My numbers include the armor runes at levels 5, 11 (noticed I applied it at L10 so just subtract 1 for that level), and 18. The fighter hits expert at 11 and master at 17, which are included. There are a lot of variations in class AC progression, but I think the fighter is a good middle of the road selection. Rows 2:22 are the martials on that sheet with a fighter in heavy armor right in the middle ground.

If you're using barding, your immediately behind a dex based maximized companion. If you sink 7 class feats at L2/4/8/14/16/18 you can have an AC that has bad AC to L13 and good until L20 at ~2/3 hp. Thats a big opportunity cost in addition to spending an action every turn to get your support function and figuring out how to make your bear fly or be able to meet high level combat environmental challenges. I honestly think you'll be to get 1-2 rounds out of it before its toast. The bear being at a -1 from the best dex AC means you're basically a medium armor wearing raging barbarian and we all know how much HP they need because they are crit magnets. I think the 2nd and 3rd specialization feats are sunk cost fallacies trying to patch a companion that is past its prime. 1-2 AC is big, but so is losing your L16 and L18 feats which in some cases include some pretty powerful feats.

If you don't sink all 3 feats in and only do your first specialization then you end up with 13 of 20 levels with a crit magnet and 6 levels on par with medium armor wearers or a raging barbarian (i.e., bear):

Dex Companion (Bear is 1 worse)
L2 - 3
L3 - 3
L4 - 2
L5 - 3
L6 - 3
L7 - 3
L8 - 1
L9 - 1
L10 - 1
L11 - 4
L12 - 4
L13 - 4
L14 - 0
L15 - 0
L16 - 0
L17 - 2
L18 - 3
L19 - 3
L20 - 3


Red Griffyn wrote:
Nothing gives you higher than expert in barding or unarmoured defense.

Barding is useful from level 1 to 7 (13 for the Bear). And martials get expert at 13 and Master at 19 for the vast majority of them. My numbers are the correct ones.

ACs AC is correct, on par with a martial without AC bonus. And even the Nimble Bear has an acceptable armor.


The best Archer build is the Starlit Span Magus. If you allow Dual Class, Starlit Span/Fighter.

Every other archer build seems about even with maybe Eldritch Archer Archetype as a poor man's Starlit Span.

I'm playing a Starlit Span magus right now. Hands down the most ranged damage I've ever seen from archery. Really, just a brutal damage dealer. Obliterates monsters over rounds. I see other players really not liking the glory taken because Starlit Span crits are just nuts.


Deriven Firelion wrote:

The best Archer build is the Starlit Span Magus. If you allow Dual Class, Starlit Span/Fighter.

Every other archer build seems about even with maybe Eldritch Archer Archetype as a poor man's Starlit Span.

I'm playing a Starlit Span magus right now. Hands down the most ranged damage I've ever seen from archery. Really, just a brutal damage dealer. Obliterates monsters over rounds. I see other players really not liking the glory taken because Starlit Span crits are just nuts.

starlit span also benefit most from redirecting shot loophole

because their one hit deal the most damage

any caster can just hold a air repeater in one hand and reroll attack for any spellstrike isn't under a fortune effect already

pretty sure this will be errata eventually

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