so simple question really.
the spell Teleportation Circle offer no save (it does allow sr check) and state it teleport "any creature who stands on it to a designated spot". also it can be made permanent with a permanency spell.
My question is, what happen if some1 make 2 permanent TC each with the destination marked as the ground inside the other. will this trap someone indefinitely or will he be able to get out?
Yes this would work. Teleportation Circles are activated the exact second that you walk into them, and can be set off on accident if the Teleportation Circle is invisible. In theory, you could have two teleportation circles that are set to constantly teleport the target back and forth between the two circles, creating an endless loop.
However, the law of probability/chance will come into effect here because eventually there will be a Natural 1, 2, or 3 on the d20 for a low spell penetration check, and one of the Teleportation Circles will fail to affect the target, and the "endless loop" will end.
I suppose this endless loop thing could work on low level creatures that don't have SR yet (or extremely low SR), but Teleportation Circle is a 9th level spell, there aren't many creatures/adventurers at this point in the game who don't have decent-to-high SR. They will eventually pass.
As far as if a PC gets caught in a "Teleportation Loop" rather than a monster/NPC, the other PC's could easily save him. Teleportation Circles can be disabled mundanely with a Disable Device check (and the Teleportation Circle will be disabled for 10 minutes), or you can simply Greater Dispel Magic or Mage's Disjunction and unravel it entirely. If you're using level 9 spells on low-level parties, then this is wading into 'jerk DM' territory.
Maybe the definition of low level varies, but Hell's Vengeance does sick an energy drain trap on the party at level 10. Ultimately it depends on how it's used. I think using teleportation circle trap like the one described above is way more humane than a 100ft pit excavated with a bunch of castings of a 1st level spell, especially when you will probably die to the pitfall but can be rescued from the circle.
It is at least definitely a good way to foreshadow a powerful final boss to have the party (maybe even unknowingly) exploring a former layer at the beginning of a campaign.
Although there is no official numbers for what makes a "low level party", I'd say:
Levels 1-7: Low level / early game
Levels 8-14: Mid level / mid game
Levels 15-20: High level / late game
So if you're going to do a "Teleportation Circle Trap" like this, I think a Mid-level party would be able to handle it, either through Disable Device or multiple Dispel Magic attempts. Even if they couldn't handle it right then and there, they would have enough WBL by this time to afford something that could free their PC buddy, like 8-12 pinches of Dweomer's Essence for multiple Dispel Magic spells (I'm sure you'll fail a few times) or even Beads of Karma.
I don't think a low level party would be able to handle something like this though. Your Caster Level for Dispel Magic check and Disable Device bonus probably wouldn't even be high enough even with a nat 20. I'm sure it is entirely possible to build a low level character that could do this, but now you're creating a build specifically built to counter something like this. It would be unreasonable to expect a party to build a character around doing this every campaign though, "just in case" the DM uses a 9th level spell on a level 7 party.
It is at least definitely a good way to foreshadow a powerful final boss to have the party (maybe even unknowingly) exploring a former layer at the beginning of a campaign.
Yeah, this would be very cool to do for foreshadowing to scare the PC's a bit. If I was going to do this vs. a low level party, I'd probably adjust the DC to disable/dispel it down to their level though. It would still be difficult, but passable.
But a Mid-level party, I'd probably put the DC where its supposed to be and say "tough crap, figure it out" :P
The DC to perform a Targeted Dispel is = 11 + the spell’s caster level, so CL 17 minimum for a 9th level spell puts us at a 28 DC minimum. Unless you already have CL boosting items, a level 7 caster can only hit a 27 DC with a nat 20.
Chances are pretty high that a 9th level caster doesn't have a CL of 17 though. He's probably got all the +CL toys by then.
I'd probably just follow the Magic Trap rules for something like this for Disable Device. The DC to Disable Device on a Magic Trap is 25+ spell level x2, so 43 DC for this Teleportation Circle Trap. That's a pretty tall order, but is possible for a Mid-level party.
The DC to perform a Targeted Dispel is = 11 + the spell’s caster level, so CL 17 minimum for a 9th level spell puts us at a 28 DC minimum. Unless you already have CL boosting items, a level 7 caster can only hit a 27 DC with a nat 20.
Chances are pretty high that a 9th level caster doesn't have a CL of 17 though. He's probably got all the +CL toys by then.
I'd probably just follow the Magic Trap rules for something like this for Disable Device. The DC to Disable Device on a Magic Trap is 25+ spell level x2, so 43 DC for this Teleportation Circle Trap. That's a pretty tall order, but is possible for a Mid-level party.
From the spell description: "Magic traps such as teleportation circle are hard to detect and disable. A character with the trapfinding class feature can use the Disable Device to disarm magic traps. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 34 in the case of teleportation circle."
If you got the "x2" from the SRD, that's a reference to "Note Number 2", not a multiplier.
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First let me say thanks for the responds so far.
A friend of mine mentioned that it seem like nothing really prevent the person trapped from bending his knees and jumping out of the circle when it is his turn (as long as he can clear the distance from the middle of the trap). And that it should just be a 50/50 chance out of which trap he end of leaping. Walking out probably won't work as taking the first step would still sent the target to the middle of the next trap.
But since the trigger is stepping on the trap jumping or flying out would.
So in case of jumpers it seem 3 traps are needed. 1 to send the target into a loop of two traps with no room to jump out of.
@Ryze, I was also assuming there can be caveats like giving them a rope or something mostly mundane could extract them since it isn't hurting them, or even if you put the circle like at the bottom of a pit set to teleport them to the top of the pit after taking falling damage, you can still try to catch them out of it, not just like making an unlimited duration maze spell by other means.
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First let me say thanks for the responds so far.
A friend of mine mentioned that it seem like nothing really prevent the person trapped from bending his knees and jumping out of the circle when it is his turn (as long as he can clear the distance from the middle of the trap). And that it should just be a 50/50 chance out of which trap he end of leaping. Walking out probably won't work as taking the first step would still sent the target to the middle of the next trap.
But since the trigger is stepping on the trap jumping or flying out would.So in case of jumpers it seem 3 traps are needed. 1 to send the target into a loop of two traps with no room to jump out of.
I agree with your friend. For the guy in the teleport circle loop, the world around him flickers back and forth constantly but nothing stops him from acting.
Note that the circle teleport "any creature who stands on it". As it doesn't cut people in half, it activates when the creature is within the circle and one of his extremities touches the floor. Probably it will not teleport a large or larger creature and it will not teleport a flying one.
Besides the fear of being cut in half, I don't see any reason why you can't step outside of the circle. You will end outside of a random circle, but there is no physical obstacle stopping you.
oh for some reason we thought it was:
"Effect 5-ft (per cl ).-radius circle that teleports those who activate it"
so we imagined anyone trying to simply walk out as some1 going up a down moving escalator always setting his foot back to where he started.
turn out it was:
"Effect 5-ft.-radius circle that teleports those who activate it" so 5 ft step should also work
unless a 3 loop trap is used as above with later 2 ending in a trapped walled 5 ft circle.
Edit:
But that would amount to the same thing as just having one trap send the target to a walled circle with no more traps at all...
There are some missing bits of information that are going to make this a GM’s call. The description lists it as a magical trap, so it falls under those rules. But one thing that is not specified is the reset time. It also does not specify how often the teleport circle can actually teleport something. Without those being defined it is impossible to say if you can actually setup a continuous instantaneous loop. For example, if the reset time is 1 round that would mean the first circle would send you to the second circle, which would send you to the first circle. After a round the process would repeat itself. The same would happen if there is a limit to the number of times it can be triggered.
As was pointed out even if it works it does not stop the character from taking their action. There is nothing that would prevent a character from simply moving out of the circle. Another thing to point out is that the description specifically states the creature to be teleported has to be standing on the triggering circle. Anyone not standing in the circle will not be teleported. That means the simple way out is to jump or otherwise not stand on the circle. A flying creature will not be teleported even if they are in the circle unless they land.
As traps go this is fairly easy to get out. A single teleport circle that teleports you to a room with no exits would be a better trap.
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Edit:
But that would amount to the same thing as just having one trap send the target to a walled circle with no more traps at all...
An idea to mess with the people using the circle can be to have a first circle that sends the user to a desirable destination, then, at the arrival point, a second circle that activates if the user doesn't have a specific token and send him to a cell.
It will foil some kind of trap detection and attempts to discern what is the destination by Knowledge arcana and Spellcraft on the first circle. It is undefined by the rules, but I would allow people to use those skills to gather some information on the circle destination. My opinion is that the caster of the circle needs to place some guiding rune in it when making it.
However, the law of probability/chance will come into effect here because eventually there will be a Natural 1, 2, or 3 on the d20 for a low spell penetration check, and one of the Teleportation Circles will fail to affect the target, and the "endless loop" will end.
An SR check is only made the first time a creature encounters a spell, not each time it is affected by it.
Check spell resistance only once for any particular casting of a spell or use of a spell-like ability. If spell resistance fails the first time, it fails each time the creature encounters that same casting of the spell. Likewise, if the spell resistance succeeds the first time, it always succeeds.
If you truly want to trap someone with looping teleportation circles, it is best to use 3 circles…
The first is the trigger for the trap, can be permanent or temporary, it does not matter. This circle teleports to an indistinct remote location.
The arrival point has a permanent teleportation circle at it. This goes to a second indistinct remote location with another permanent teleportation circle. This third circle returns them to the first.
Bonus points if the two permanent circles lead to rooms with no exits.
This ensures that someone cant just dispel the first circle to end the loop, since the target will never return to the original location at any point in the loop.
From the spell description: "Magic traps such as teleportation circle are hard to detect and disable. A character with the trapfinding class feature can use the Disable Device to disarm magic traps. The DC in each case is 25 + spell level, or 34 in the case of teleportation circle."If you got the "x2" from the SRD, that's a reference to "Note Number 2", not a multiplier.
Yeah I thought that was a little high, good catch. Should be 34 DC.
@Ryze, I was also assuming there can be caveats like giving them a rope or something mostly mundane could extract them since it isn't hurting them, or even if you put the circle like at the bottom of a pit set to teleport them to the top of the pit after taking falling damage, you can still try to catch them out of it, not just like making an unlimited duration maze spell by other means.
I think as long as you get the PC off the ground it should work. I'm pretty sure you actually have to make contact with the circle that's drawn on the ground in order to get teleported, otherwise the spell's area of effect would be listed as a 20ft tall cylinder or something similar.
First let me say thanks for the responds so far.
A friend of mine mentioned that it seem like nothing really prevent the person trapped from bending his knees and jumping out of the circle when it is his turn (as long as he can clear the distance from the middle of the trap). And that it should just be a 50/50 chance out of which trap he end of leaping. Walking out probably won't work as taking the first step would still sent the target to the middle of the next trap.
But since the trigger is stepping on the trap jumping or flying out would.So in case of jumpers it seem 3 traps are needed. 1 to send the target into a loop of two traps with no room to jump out of.
Yeah if you want to increase the difficulty by a ton, make 3 Teleportation Circles. The first Teleportation Circle sends you to a "prison" of two "endless looping" Teleportation Circles that are elsewhere, either underground or in pits so they can't simply jump out or get rescued easily by the PC's. Trying to rescue a PC stuck in something like this would be its own side quest tbh ;)
Hilarious.
The most elaborate teleportation trap ever…
The first circle teleports you into room with a permanent antimagic field in it and the walls are lined with doors. Behind each door is a small room only large enough for a teleportation circle. Regardless of which door you go through they will all send you through a chain of teleportation circles ending in you being teleported back into the antimagic room.
I don’t think you can use a teleport circle to travel to an area that has an antimagic field.
As far as I can tell scouring rules information, nothing prevents teleporting INTO antimagic, only teleporting out… in the event of a GM prohibiting teleporting into antimagic, you just set the arrival point to a location above that will immediately drop them into the antimagic field. Perhaps with various other effects to force a target down such as permanently greased walls and a constant powerful downdraft.
Does someone caught in such a trap just cease to exist for all intents and purposes?
You are somewhere between two points, yet you don't exist anywhere for any measurable amount of time.
You are also not affected by the continuation of time outside the loop... as teleportation is instantaneous, you never stop long enough for any time to elapse... if you ever got out of the loop, you would be the exact same age as when you entered, regardless of how long you were trapped.
So, you as the physical body that is recognized as yourself, literally do not exist in any place or any point of time that can be measured... you no longer exist?
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.
The section about suppressing any effect brought into or cast into the area would prevent something from being teleported into the area.
An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.
The section about suppressing any effect brought into or cast into the area would prevent something from being teleported into the area.
It would stop teleportation circles, for sure, but
The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic fieldThus things like Teleport would function.
i think that part mostly talk about stuff brought over magically that are not magical themselves (so they are also not effected by sr) like acid splash. so some1 who uses acid splash and aim into an anti-magic zone would have the spell effect work (as the acid is created outside the zone and is then hurled there.)
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i think that part mostly talk about stuff brought over magically that are not magical themselves (so they are also not effected by sr) like acid splash. so some1 who uses acid splash and aim into an anti-magic zone would have the spell effect work (as the acid is created outside the zone and is then hurled there.)An antimagic field suppresses any spell or magical effect used within, brought into, or cast into the area, but does not dispel it. Time spent within an antimagic field counts against the suppressed spell's duration.
The section about suppressing any effect brought into or cast into the area would prevent something from being teleported into the area.
It would stop teleportation circles, for sure, but
The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic fieldThus things like Teleport would function.
Or stuff that was "created" by conjuration and, after creation, is a permanent part of the universe.
But Telepotation works at both ends when the spell is cast. If you don't connect at the terminus point because it is within an Anti-Magic Field, there is no "instantaneous" effect as the spell fizzle before creating it.
BTW, the citation is shortened, changing its meaning:
(The effects of instantaneous conjurations are not affected by an antimagic field because the conjuration itself is no longer in effect, only its result.)
When the spell is in the process of being cast, the conjuration is very much in effect.
i think that part mostly talk about stuff brought over magically that are not magical themselves (so they are also not effected by sr) like acid splash. so some1 who uses acid splash and aim into an anti-magic zone would have the spell effect work (as the acid is created outside the zone and is then hurled there.)
The acid of acid splash is not permanent, so it could not target something inside an AMF.
... This acid disappears after 1 round.
Something like masterwork transformation would not be affected by AMF though after-the-fact. eg, a weapon with masterwork transformation cast on it would not revert back to non-masterwork if taken into an AMF.
Sure and you might have a point if the spell targeted a point inside the AMF.
This is exactly the scenario Diego is referencing.
If you don't connect at the terminus point because it is within an Anti-Magic Field...
Or are you saying that someone with a readied action to counterspell at the destination of teleport can counterspell it?
In order to counterspell you need to be able to perceive the caster as they are casting so that you can identify the spell (and cast the same spell as a counter). So no you cannot counter at the receiving end of teleport (unless of course it is a very short range teleport where you can also see the caster pre-teleport).
A teleport spell is not completed until the targets have disappeared from one location AND re-appeared at a new location. Both locations need to be free of AMF. Just like a fireball is not complete until it has appeared at your finger, then traveled to the target point and exploded. Likewise an AMF at the source or destination (and everywhere inbetween as it is not instantaneous travel) foils the fireball.
Dispel magic also works for counterspelling (just has a check). Are you saying that a caster on the other side of a force wall (no LOE, but able to see the spell being cast and thus identify) but within range of the destination, would actually be able to counterspell a teleport/ddoor?
Counterspelling makes no mention of LoE being required, though the last line does state "If the target is within range, both spells automatically negate each other with no other results." That sort of invokes LoE (IMO). Eg, if there was a path around the wall of force that still left the total distance within range, counterspell can still work. But the rules certainly are not well defined here.
Nor is a Stone Discus or Arrow Eruption spell complete until it hits the target under that logic. All 3 still work through AMFs as far as I'm aware.
These can be some very fine lines to distinguish (and I can certainly understand someone viewing them differently than I do). Acid splash we know is continuing magic and is entirely magical in nature because the spell tells us the acid disappears 1 round after casting.
Stone discus, it could be the magic creates the stone and gives it its momentum, and then the magic ends, but the stone continues moving according to the basic laws of physics. But at higher levels can bypass certain DR (probably magical in nature). Personally I would rule this spell can still hit a target inside an AMF as normal, but would not be able to bypass DR. Because the AMF does not cancel the permanent existance of the discus, but would cancel the magical portion that gives it DR penetration.
Arrow eruption I would rule similar. The magic creates the explostion, physics does the rest. However, the AMF would neutralize this part of the spell "These duplicate arrows possess all the intrinsic magical properties of the arrow that killed the original creature as well as those passed on to it by your bow."
Fabricate would work without problem inside an AMF. Or rather, the effects of a fabricate cast outside of the AMF would not revert back.
Side note: The other spells would also have to originate (and in the case of arrow eruption have the target deceased creature) not be inside the AMF.
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The acid of acid splash is not permanent, so it could not target something inside an AMF.
... This acid disappears after 1 round.
Acid splash is still an instantaneous duration conjuration spell. The one round lifespan of the acid may very well just represent its potency and/or the natural abundance of its neutralizing agent in the environment. Some acids can and are neutralized within seconds by exposure to open air.
Regarding stone discus and its DR penetration… whose to say its DR penetration is infact magical? For all we know at CL5 the stone is created with flecks of silver in it, at CL10 it has flecks of cold iron, and at CL15 it gains some adamantine flecks OR is just condensed and compacted until it is as strong as adamantine… the only DR penetration that is undeniably magical is DR Magic.