Hello,
I'd really like to play a monk on an upcoming AP, but I realized our party is very severely lacking in the damage department.
I know monk strength comes from things like fast movement and stunning fist, but I'll have to put the hurt on enemies if we want to win the upcoming fights.
We have:
- A sword and board redeemer
- A primal witch
- A bard
- An investigator
..and me.
The investigator is a new player and she's not minmaxing at all - which is totally fine, but makes me carry the brunt of the damage in a fight. The witch will take some damaging spells, the bard will be mostly debuffing, and the redeemer will do redeemer stuff.
So, how would YOU create this monk so he can really put the hurt on someone ? I can even sacrifice a little bit of survivability since I'll have a redeemer to babysit me, the witch plans to invest in life lesson and the bard will take soothe as a signature spell.
1) We don't have free archetypes
2) We play on foundry so most material implemented is ok
It's my first time playing monk and I'm really excited about it, but I'd love to have some advice on it.
Thanks a lot !
That's an interesting question. Outside the obvious (grabbing Dragon Stance as it's the highest damaging one and Ki Strike as it strongly increases your attacks) it's hard to come up with other optimizations.
I'd personally go for Magus Dedication. First, you can grab Electric Arc for Electric Arc + FoB when you don't have to move which is a high damage round.
Then, I'd take Spellstriker and Psychic Dedication to grab Imaginary Weapon. As you can grab extra Focus points as a Monk, you end up with a lot of high damaging uses of your Focus Points. I'd take a second and then third Focus Point per Refocus to fully support my fighting style.
Side note: Depending on how your GM plays Innate Spells, you can also grab Electric Arc as an Innate spell to benefit from the proficiency increases of the Monk class.
Another possibility is to grab a Bow and then Eldritch Archer (and then Psychic Dedication for the high damaging Focus Power). I'd play a Halfling for Guiding Luck so I can reroll my failures.
But ranged builds deal less damage than melee ones in general so it's certainly not as damaging as the previous build.
My idea was to rely on stumbling stance as well, but take rogue as an archetype to get +1d4 (eventually 1d6) sneak attack.
This means that if I can flank my opponent or if he hits me and gets flat-footed, at level 6 with striking handwraps I would attack twice for 2d8+1d6+4, or 2d8+2d6+4 with a focus point.
As for electric arc, I could get it through adaptative cantrip.
It's not fighter level, but it looks pretty good actually ^^
SuperBidi, that's a *lot* of class feats you're talking about, as the OP doesn't have Free Archetype. Magus Dedication + Spellstriker + 1 more Magus Dedication Feat + Psychic Dedication + Psi Development... that's every Class Feat from Level 2 through Level 10.
I'd go Human Ancestry (maybe Half-Orc for Bloody Blows later), pick up Dragon Stance and Ki Strike with Natural Ambition, and go from there. 18 Str, 14-16 Dex, some Charisma if you can manage it (Dragon's Roar is a decent debuff), Con of course.
You can't get Electric Arc through Adaptive Cantrip unless you have a cantrip you can sacrifice... but you can get it as an innate spell, which should work just as well. (Check with your GM on whether innate spells scale with your best casting proficiency. Personally, I'm convinced that they should, but it's a matter of at least some debate.)
You're going to be interested in basically all of the following feats, though.
- Ki Strike (lvl 1)
- Stumbling Stance (lvl 1)
- Stunning Fist (lvl 2)
- Stand Still (lvl 4)
- Stumbling Feint (lvl 6)
Even with Natural Ambition, that's level 8 before you see your dedication, level 10 for the Sneak Attacker feat and at that point an extra 1d6 damage adder for two feats just isn't as exciting. Natural Ambition also means delaying your "unlock Electric arc" feat (Arcane Tattoos, Uncommon, requires Varisian ethnicity or New Thassilon nationality) until level 5. You could grab rogue with Multitalented at 9 to cut the cost a little, but it might be worth shopping about to see if a different archetype would serve you better at that point. Winding Flow is potentially kind of shiny, you know?
I suppose that you could also go with the tattoos at 1, and the Natural Ambition to reach back for the Ki Strike at 5. It's not like you were getting expert proficiency from Ki Spells before level 9 anyway. That one really depends on which of the two you want immediately, and which you care to wait on. Admittedly, walking into campaign with the tattoos and developing the ki strike later is probably easier to sell from a story perspective.
If your GM isn't okay with the Electric Arc sourcing, that actually opens things up a bit - half-orc for Bloody Blows at 5 starts making a fair bit of sense, and Ki Strike (while still potentially nice) isn't nearly as important.
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I'd go Wolf Stance, personally. You have the Champion as a flanking buddy, so Backstabbe will keep your damage up a bit. Having a pretty reliable way of knocking down an enemy via Wolf Drag and the often resulting free MAP-less Strike from Stand Still beats the larger damage dice of Dragon Stance in my opinion. Having a Bard also means you'll have a slightly above average attack bonus more often than not, making those Fatal Wolf Drag crits somewhat more likely.
Your basic str monk is going to run wolf stance and an 18/16/14/8/12/8 stat array. Between agile and backstabber, the average damage beats dragon and wolf drag opens up an easy way to use your reaction attack while only counting as one attack for MAP.
Personally, I'd take the early damage hit and run 16/18/14/8/12/8 instead since it improves AC, ref saves and opens up wild winds switch hitting.
The alternative to wolf stance is the bo staff for good old fashioned reach gaming. Also saves you a startup action tax in combat which is always nice.
The other early choice is ki rush vs ki strike. Rush is preferred for the concealment and the high engage distance. Strike's status bonus gets eaten by inspire courage and the extra damage is kinda low with bad scaling.
Probably looks something like
Human - half-elf, aasimar or versatile
16/18/14/8/12/8 (int and cha flaw for con)
Ancestry feats
01) Natural Ambition (ki rush)
05) General Training
09) Multitalented (caster)
13) free
17) free
Class feats
01) Wolf Stance
02) Rogue dedication
04) Stand Still
06) Wolf Drag or Sneak Attacker
08) other lvl 6 or wild wind initiate
10) basic casting or lvl 8
12) stance savant, evasiveness or lvl 10
14) expert casting, or lvl 12
16) lvl 14
18) ki form or master casting
20) lvl 18
General feats
Toughness
Fleet
Canny Acumen (perception)
Ancestral paragon
I've forgotten how truly awful monk feats tend to be. Anyway, rogue dedication offers sneak attack on all your attacks which is great if you can guarentee the flank with your champion ally. Also lets us get another master save at 12. Stand Still is your tax for not having a built in reaction. Wolf drag puts your target on the floor and, unlike fighter knockdown, only counts as 1 attack for MAP. Follow up with flurry with your agile strikes for some extra damage. Alternatively, delay SA or drag for switch hitting with wild wind. Multitalented gives you whatever you want. A caster of some kind gives you extra out of combat utility or some fancy save-less control tools like illusions or walls. Stance savant removes your action tax but competes with some nice stuff. Ki form is more damage and flight.
A bow monk would probably just run 4 rogue feats from 2-8 (dedication, mobility, sneak attacker, dread striker) and grab psychic at 9 for the guidance reaction.
The spellstrike monk is a fascinating idea though it takes 10 levels to actually get where it's going. Maybe I'll take it through some tests later.
Of course, no monk discussion is complete without mentioning the wild shape monk. This monk is simple enough. Just grab druid dedication at 2 and wild shape at 4. Transform and flurry with your animal attacks and +2 status bonus until level 10 when the scaling stops and retrain it into casting or into a generic monk.
Stumbling Swing and Wolf Jaw are basically identical (P vs B). Beyond that, Wolf Stance makes you slightly better at tripping while flanking, and Stumbling Stance both makes you a bit better at feinting and gives you free flat-footed when enemies hit you in melee. Between the two, i think that Stumbling has the advantage.
The level 6 feat is a bit more complicated. Stumbling gives you action efficiency - feint as a free action whenever you flurry, applicable to both strikes of the flurry. Wolf gives you a two-action attack that lets you potentially knock down an enemy regardless of strength.
Of the two, Wolf Drag is more useful for ganging up against a tough opponent with your friends, where it's going to take multiple rounds to defeat a single enemy. Stumbling Feint is better for staying high-mobility and taking out smaller threats.
It might be worth knowing if the investigator is going melee or ranged.
The thing with stumbling though is that you need deception to feint. As a melee monk, you typically want to avoid cha unless you're planning to ignore str/athletics entirely. This does a number on your early game performance and there are easier ways to get flat-footed (flank, champion tripping, dread striker+dirge, invis 4, etc) than relying on deception off a tertiary stat.
The investigator is ranged no? Surely Blue_Frog wouldn't let a new player faceplant so spectacularly by not warning them off playing a melee investigator.
With your allies debuffing and providing you a lot of support with healing and flanking, I think your instinct to want to maximize damage makes sense. However, any dedications that require you to go 14 INT or CHA are going to hamper your ability to defend yourself effectively and stay focused on damage. I recommend going STR and picking up the dragon stance, then boosting Con, Dex, and Wis. Barbarian actually stacks pretty well with this party composition since you will have healing support and is a very easy way to stack on extra damage. Dragon or spirit depending upon the campaign could both be a lot of fun and an easy way to play a pretty impressive skirmishing mauler. I recommend moving away from enemies with your 3rd action so that they are stuck having to move to attack you (which they are going to want to do after you clobber them) or attack your sword and board redeemer who will be incredibly tanky. You can also have all three saves at master saves by level 12, and get a lot of extra HP, so you will be pretty tough.
Lots of good advice on this thread, thanks ^^
Barbarian looks good actually, I didn't even think about it. As for moving away, that might not be an option since I'll be the only melee with the redeemer. Better to take advantage of the champion's reaction than move away and let a squishie get squished ^^
As for the investigator, of course she's ranged - but she's also more into "I shoot at the chandelier to make it fall on the bad guy" than actual dps. Which is fine and makes fights pretty dynamic, but usually deal really low damage.
The thing with stumbling though is that you need deception to feint. As a melee monk, you typically want to avoid cha unless you're planning to ignore str/athletics entirely. This does a number on your early game performance and there are easier ways to get flat-footed (flank, champion tripping, dread striker+dirge, invis 4, etc) than relying on deception off a tertiary stat.
The investigator is ranged no? Surely Blue_Frog wouldn't let a new player faceplant so spectacularly by not warning them off playing a melee investigator.
If you're going for EArc and stumbling (again, assuming the GM makes appropriate rulings to permit this), then taking cha at the cost of str starts looking pretty compelling. It does sting a bit in the early game, but it means less and less as you level up, and flurry+EArc is pretty strong.
I'd say it's probably not worth putting actions into feint until Stumbling Feint, but after you have that feat... well, it's a free action, and it doesn't require an archetype, and it doesn't require that someone else have done setup for you. Having that flexibility on the battlefield can be useful sometimes.
Basically, if you want your monk to be a damage-dealer, then you're not going for heavy investment in athletics maneuvers anyway. At that point, Strength is great for early-game damage, but becomes less and less meaningful as you level up. So... what's your level range of choice? If you're running PFS, and you expect the character to cap out around level 6, then tanking strength is a terrible idea, and you shouldn't use this plan. If you're hoping to go to 20, and you're feeling pretty good about the early game but concerned about long-term viability, then yeah, dropping your initial strength to 12 or so is potentially worthwhile.
Barbarian looks good actually, I didn't even think about it. As for moving away, that might not be an option since I'll be the only melee with the redeemer. Better to take advantage of the champion's reaction than move away and let a squishie get squished ^^
Worth noting that Barbarian Archetype is pretty much mutually exclusive with any sort of spellcasting plan, and if you have a stance also is going to mean you need to spend an action to rage and an action to get into said stance. Not to say that it's a bad or wrong choice, just that there's some costs involved.
The thing about rage, is that you use it when the action cost makes sense. It is not a required action for being efficient in combat. So with a ranged and pretty defensive oriented group, if you get a high initiative roll, you can spend your first round buffing up before the enemy gets to you, because rushing ahead, away from your champion and away from your healing support is probably a really bad idea anyway. But if you go late and the battle has already come to the party, then you might not have to move, in which case you can still spend two actions buffing and have a powerful dragon tail attack, or you wait until round 2 when you will probably have an action to spare (backswing is great for flurry when you miss with your first attack, as it gives you agile for the second attack, but it is not great for 3rd+ attacks) Attacking 2 times with dragon tail and then doing something else with your other actions is generally going to be a good idea. Maybe consider picking up a shield pretty early and using that to further de-incentivize attacking you. Between a shield block, temp HP, and a champion, you can really fluster enemies, while delivering high damage attacks.
Jalmeri Heavenseeker (new less broken reprinted one)
?
I haven't seen this yet. Is it in a new book?