I have created a sorcerer who has lots of third action options and is quite solid. However, I am running into an issue with a reliable reaction? Anyone have any ideas what I can use for a reaction?
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Psychic archetype for amp guidance. Swashbuckler archetype for one for all. Gunslinger for fake out. Those are the usual paths taken to get a good Reaction ability.
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I have created a sorcerer who has lots of third action options and is quite solid. However, I am running into an issue with a reliable reaction? Anyone have any ideas what I can use for a reaction?
Depending on what tradition you are, there are some powerful spells like Lose the Path. Otherwise, one that comes up fairly often in advice threads is a third action + reaction for Aid.
Ah cool, what are your guys thoughts on Nimble Dodge (Rogue dedication)
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There are a lot of these. Has someone put together a list yet?
The difficulty is distiguishing those which are useful only occasionally from those that are useful regularly.
*Aid though is is mostly useful from mid level. You need to get your total modifer with aid over +10 so you don't critically fail much. But with an ancestry feat and the right skill choice that can be soon.
*Shield Block. Raising a real shield is not that bad an option for a caster once their staff is empty.
There are a stack you can get from different ancestries. Some I like are:
*Elude Trouble
*Shadow Blending
*Empathic Plea
*Unexpected Shift, Fortuitous Shift
*Goblin Scuttle
*Dark Fields Kitsune
*Mask of Pain
*Mother’s Mindfulness
*Elemental Bulwark
*Smokesoul
*Mistsoul
Then from low level feats via a multiclass archetype
*Psychic => amped guidance
*Thaumaturge + Implement Initiate => Amulet's Abeyance or Ring Bell
or Implement's Interruption(?)
*Gunslinger + Basic Shooting => Hit the Dirt or Fake Out
*Swashbuckler + Basic Flair => One for All
*Swashbuckler + Swashbuckler's Riposte
*Rogue + Basic Trickery => Nimble Dodge
*Bard + Basic Muse's Whispers => Inspire Competence
*Champion + Champion's Reaction
*Fighter + Opportunist
There are more a higher levels. Plus a lot more that aren't much value at all.
Ah cool, what are your guys thoughts on Nimble Dodge (Rogue dedication)
I have a Witch character that has that. I haven't had the opportunity to use it yet, but I only got it a level ago - only about 4 battles since then.
Mostly my positioning means that I don't get attacked. But it is nice to have it available. (Mobility is on my list as well in order to be able to walk away from AoO before casting, but my character won't get that until next level.)
I have used Shield cantrip and its Shield Block reaction a couple of times.
Ah cool, what are your guys thoughts on Nimble Dodge (Rogue dedication)I have a Witch character that has that. I haven't had the opportunity to use it yet, but I only got it a level ago - only about 4 battles since then.
Mostly my positioning means that I don't get attacked. But it is nice to have it available. (Mobility is on my list as well in order to be able to walk away from AoO before casting, but my character won't get that until next level.)
I have used Shield cantrip and its Shield Block reaction a couple of times.
I have a high level Rogue with Preparation, and I'm finding I wish I had Nimble Dodge, because sometimes plans don't come together and allies don't cooperate as they should.
I was considering Your Next, as a blaster I imagine I will get the killing blow a good amount of time, thoughts?
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I was considering Your Next, as a blaster I imagine I will get the killing blow a good amount of time, thoughts?
As a blaster you are less likely to land a killing blow than you might think. It's also unreliable in general and useless in fights vs solo enemies. A good reaction is something you can reliably use every combat or, preferably, every turn.
I agree with Gesalt: You're Next main drawback is that it happens when you start downing enemies, which happens more at the end of the fight. So it's rarely meaningful even when you trigger it.
Nimble Dodge is not bad, but as a caster you are rarely targeted so it isn't triggered often. If you have a free hand (and Archetype) Bastion Dedication is strictly better and can even allow you to Shield Block for free at high level.
I consider Amp Guidance to be the go to reaction for casters now, especially those with available Focus Points (Sorcerer's Focus Spells are rarely strong, so it's good on a Sorcerer). One For All is strong but it's a bit more investment than just a reaction. But unlike Gesalt I find that Fake Out isn't great as you don't have good proficiencies.
Among the Ancestries, I find Gnome the best for reactions. Fortuitous Shift is gorgeous. Goblin can be nice if your allies like to move around you. Orc Ferocity can also be strong, but you need a lot of feats for it to trigger more than once per day.
Interesting. If taking Psychic dedication then I wouldn't need to take two feats I'd that correct, just a single Dedication could get me Amped Guidance? And how does it work, is it basically the same as the Guidance cantrip it's used before the actual roll?
Interesting. If taking Psychic dedication then I wouldn't need to take two feats I'd that correct, just a single Dedication could get me Amped Guidance? And how does it work, is it basically the same as the Guidance cantrip it's used before the actual roll?
You just need the Dedication to get Amp Guidance.
And it's now a reaction that can be used if an ally fails an Attack roll, Save or Skill check by just one point.
Interesting. If taking Psychic dedication then I wouldn't need to take two feats I'd that correct, just a single Dedication could get me Amped Guidance? And how does it work, is it basically the same as the Guidance cantrip it's used before the actual roll?You just need the Dedication to get Amp Guidance.
And it's now a reaction that can be used if an ally fails an Attack roll, Save or Skill check by just one point.
Wow that's super good, so do you mean the GM has to say you missed the attack roll by one and I can say "ok I use my reaction to give him the +1"? Or?
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Wow that's super good, so do you mean the GM has to say you missed the attack roll by one and I can say "ok I use my reaction to give him the +1"? Or?Interesting. If taking Psychic dedication then I wouldn't need to take two feats I'd that correct, just a single Dedication could get me Amped Guidance? And how does it work, is it basically the same as the Guidance cantrip it's used before the actual roll?You just need the Dedication to get Amp Guidance.
And it's now a reaction that can be used if an ally fails an Attack roll, Save or Skill check by just one point.
That's it.
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I was considering Your Next, as a blaster I imagine I will get the killing blow a good amount of time, thoughts?
As someone who has (and currently still does) played a blaster caster, you almost will never be the one to land the killing blow. In fact, unless your GM sticks to using enemies that are under level to the party, you will probably be very disappointed with your damage and accuracy. Meanwhile, all your teammates will be quietly wishing you were using more debuffs and control spells. (This opinion is controversial and not intended to open up a massive debate. However, after trying four different characters all focused on spell blasting over many levels, this has become my take.)
For all the things I love about this system, I do abhor the lack of spell blaster effectiveness. It seems to me there was an overreaction to trying to balance from PF1 caster damage causing the design team to go too far in the other direction.
On the other hand regarding your initial inquiry, a lot of good options have already been presented. Shield if available is always a good option. If you can take multi-class feats, then the Champion’s Reaction feat could be a great choice depending how far back from your tank (or other allies) you keep your character. Staying within 15’ of others is still far enough to avoid the majority of melee while also staying in range for nearly every offensive spell.
I was considering Your Next, as a blaster I imagine I will get the killing blow a good amount of time, thoughts?As someone who has (and currently still does) played a blaster caster, you almost will never be the one to land the killing blow. In fact, unless your GM sticks to using enemies that are under level to the party, you will probably be very disappointed with your damage and accuracy. Meanwhile, all your teammates will be quietly wishing you were using more debuffs and control spells. (This opinion is controversial and not intended to open up a massive debate. However, after trying four different characters all focused on spell blasting over many levels, this has become my take.)
For all the things I love about this system, I do abhor the lack of spell blaster effectiveness. It seems to me there was an overreaction to trying to balance from PF1 caster damage causing the design team to go too far in the other direction.
On the other hand regarding your initial inquiry, a lot of good options have already been presented. Shield if available is always a good option. If you can take multi-class feats, then the Champion’s Reaction feat could be a great choice depending how far back from your tank (or other allies) you keep your character. Staying within 15’ of others is still far enough to avoid the majority of melee while also staying in range for nearly every offensive spell.
Hmm, I haven't seen many really good control options to be honest, stinking cloud, Web etc have been beaten to death by the nerf bat. It seems blasting is as good an option as any?
That's it.Wow that's super good, so do you mean the GM has to say you missed the attack roll by one and I can say "ok I use my reaction to give him the +1"? Or?Interesting. If taking Psychic dedication then I wouldn't need to take two feats I'd that correct, just a single Dedication could get me Amped Guidance? And how does it work, is it basically the same as the Guidance cantrip it's used before the actual roll?You just need the Dedication to get Amp Guidance.
And it's now a reaction that can be used if an ally fails an Attack roll, Save or Skill check by just one point.
Thanks Bidi, very helpful. Sorry it's been so long since I last played like a couple years, but does Heightened 6th mean once I reach 6th level the bonus would be +2? Would I need to take any more levels of Psychic in order to achieve this +2 or could I just get away with the single Dedication feat?
Hmm, I haven't seen many really good control options to be honest, stinking cloud, Web etc have been beaten to death by the nerf bat. It seems blasting is as good an option as any?
Actually, Stinking Cloud is great. Sickened is arguably the best condition debuff one can apply. It causes a status penalty on ALL checks except damage rolls, and the enemy gets Sickened 1 on a successful save against the spell. The other benefit to Sickened is that it requires an action by the affected to then make another save which can fail, which can mean the enemy spends a bunch of actions for no result. The concealment the spell causes is nice too.
I am guessing you are going primal. If so, there are not a ton of control and debuff options available. However, healing is available and your party will love you for that. :)
Hmm, I haven't seen many really good control options to be honest, stinking cloud, Web etc have been beaten to death by the nerf bat. It seems blasting is as good an option as any?
The primary control tools that have emerged are illusory object (no save, requires an action to try and disbelieve), fear (generic debuff), hideous laughter (reaction denial, potential slow), stinking cloud (sicken, potential slow), slow (...slow), walls (battlefield control) and AoE incapacitates like calm emotions (generic debuff on save, deny hostility on failure) and overwhelming presence (deny hostility until actions are spent).
Edit: And maze. Everyone loves maze.
Heighten to 6th means as a 6th level spell, so character level 11.
... Bastion Dedication is strictly better...
Point of note, for a Sorcerer, Bastion also requires the investment of a General Feat for Shield Block.
Wow that's super good, so do you mean the GM has to say you missed the attack roll by one and I can say "ok I use my reaction to give him the +1"? Or?Interesting. If taking Psychic dedication then I wouldn't need to take two feats I'd that correct, just a single Dedication could get me Amped Guidance? And how does it work, is it basically the same as the Guidance cantrip it's used before the actual roll?You just need the Dedication to get Amp Guidance.
And it's now a reaction that can be used if an ally fails an Attack roll, Save or Skill check by just one point.
Yes it is.
Note this is using your focus pool as well as your reaction.
As such the cost is higher than the other options here, and it is probably only once per encounter.
I am putting together a list of reactions. I'm only considering those that are reasonably useful and that will occurr at about the once per encounter level or more. So no once per day reactions. Anyway here are the non focus spells I consider useful:
Level 1
Lose the Path Screw up your opponents move
Level 2
Blood Vendetta Reaction when hurt, inflicts beed damage.
Level 3
Life Connection Take an allies damage.
Mind of Menace Counter attack a mental attack.
Shadow Projectile Buff an allies ranged attack.
Shift Blame Not really a combat effect more roleplaying value.
Level 4
Anathematic Reprisal Damage your enemy when they defy your God.
Ocular Overload Dazzle an attacker.
Level 5
Breath of Life Stop a creature dying
Drop Dead Only appear to drop dead.
Shadow Siphon A reaction counterspell with a built in bonus and only against a damaging effect.
Level 6
Scintillating Safeguard Party resistance against an attack
Unexpected Transposition Escape. See you can use low level minions effectively
Level 9
Foresight Major defensive advantage for an hour, which you trigger as a reaction
Level 10
Nullify Counter a lower level spell
Are there any reasonable ones I have missed?
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Wow that's super good, so do you mean the GM has to say you missed the attack roll by one and I can say "ok I use my reaction to give him the +1"? Or?Interesting. If taking Psychic dedication then I wouldn't need to take two feats I'd that correct, just a single Dedication could get me Amped Guidance? And how does it work, is it basically the same as the Guidance cantrip it's used before the actual roll?You just need the Dedication to get Amp Guidance.
And it's now a reaction that can be used if an ally fails an Attack roll, Save or Skill check by just one point.Yes it is.
Note this is using your focus pool as well as your reaction.
As such the cost is higher than the other options here, and it is probably only once per encounter.
Wait this reaction costs me a focus point?? Thus making is useful once per fight, which also means I can't use elemental toss? :(
By getting the Psychic Dedication, you will get a second focus point.
By getting the Psychic Dedication, you will get a second focus point.
Right, but after one battle if I use both Focus Points you can only recover 1 FP after the battle correct?
For once per battle I'm not sure this is a good use of a class feat. So basically we don't have many good reactions out there and somehow getting Str to 14 and getting Champion dedication seems to be the best thing in order to get Redeemers reaction?
For once per battle I'm not sure this is a good use of a class feat. So basically we don't have many good reactions out there and somehow getting Str to 14 and getting Champion dedication seems to be the best thing in order to get Redeemers reaction?
I like it for the added benefit of heavy armor and access to Lay on Hands; a superb focus ability for a sorcerer to get with no refocus activity needed (just time, but prevents any reason a GM may say you can’t do a particular refocus activity). The strength investment isn’t that taxing if you dump dexterity for heavy armor.
I don’t play the armored spell caster generally, but many have and they seem to enjoy it.
Wait this reaction costs me a focus point?? Thus making is useful once per fight, which also means I can't use elemental toss? :(
Yes, I said you need a character with expendable Focus Points earlier. The Sorcerer is in general one of them as most Sorcerer Focus Spells are plain bad, but it's true that Elemental Toss is an exception.
In the control vs blast debate, I'm in the blast side. But I think this is mostly a question of philosophy and party composition.
Yes, I said you need a character with expendable Focus Points earlier. The Sorcerer is in general one of them as most Sorcerer Focus Spells are plain bad
? I disagree strongly
The elemental sorcerer definitely has good focus spells, at least.
Yes, I said you need a character with expendable Focus Points earlier. The Sorcerer is in general one of them as most Sorcerer Focus Spells are plain bad? I disagree strongly
From the level 1 list:
Ancestral Memories is mostly useful outside combat.Angelic Halo is only useful at low level.
Diabolic Edict is not incredible.
I fail to see much use to Dim the Light.
Dragon Claws...
Faerie Dust is super specialized. If you can't benefit from it just move on.
Glutton's Jaw...
Nymph's Token is useless.
Rejuvenating Flames is very hard to use.
Tentacular Limbs is hardly useful.
Undeath's Blessing is super nich.
Elemental Toss is nice and easily usable.
Jealous Hex is not bad and easy to use.
Genie's Veil is nice.
Sepulchral Mask is crazy strong if you build for it otherwise it's hard to use.
4 out of 15 that are nice or strong. But we can agree to disagree on that.
Interesting Bidi, I also read in someone's spell guide that spell attack roll abilities aren't the best, Elemental Toss would fall into that category, perhaps dipping into Druid for Tempest Surge is the play. Tempest Surge appears to be better than Elemental Toss. Not sure if Elemental Blast is worth getting as a level 10 feat?
Interesting Bidi, I also read in someone's spell guide that spell attack roll abilities aren't the best, Elemental Toss would fall into that category, perhaps dipping into Druid for Tempest Surge is the play. Tempest Surge appears to be better than Elemental Toss. Not sure if Elemental Blast is worth getting as a level 10 feat?
Elemental Toss is among the best spell attack roll spells.
Druid doesn't use Charisma as main attribute, so you'll be behind on save DCs. It's not a good choice in my opinion.
Yes, I said you need a character with expendable Focus Points earlier. The Sorcerer is in general one of them as most Sorcerer Focus Spells are plain bad? I disagree stronglyFrom the level 1 list:
Ancestral Memories is mostly useful outside combat.
Angelic Halo is only useful at low level.
Diabolic Edict is not incredible.
I fail to see much use to Dim the Light.
Dragon Claws...
Faerie Dust is super specialized. If you can't benefit from it just move on.
Glutton's Jaw...
Nymph's Token is useless.
Rejuvenating Flames is very hard to use.
Tentacular Limbs is hardly useful.
Undeath's Blessing is super nich.Elemental Toss is nice and easily usable.
Jealous Hex is not bad and easy to use.
Genie's Veil is nice.
Sepulchral Mask is crazy strong if you build for it otherwise it's hard to use.4 out of 15 that are nice or strong. But we can agree to disagree on that.
While I'm not going to argue about the Glutton's Jaw or Nymph's Token. Dragon Claws is a single action resistance effect to something like Bludgeoning damage. It is reasonable.
Many of them are for particular builds. That would be why you take that particular bloodline becasue that is what you want.However all of them have a follow up Bloodline Power that costs only one feat to get and is very good. So you are going to want to use you focus point on that.
Complaining that they suit only particular build is kind of strange when you have so many bloodlines to choose from.
Those also mostly look like level 1 powers. I agree many of those are lackluster but you get some sweet options at 6 and 10.
It's another focus spell, so focus point cost is a thing. But another plan for the future for my Witch/Rogue.
Time Mage Dedication. Since I am one of the two in-combat healers, I'm really wanting Delay Consequence.
Oh look, our Barbarian at half HP just got dropped by a crit. Hold that thought for a few seconds while either I or the other caster heal him up to full first.
Dragon Claws is a single action resistance effect to something like Bludgeoning damage. It is reasonable.
It makes it circumstantially useful, but still not a focus spell you'll use more than half a dozen time in your career.
Many of them are for particular builds. That would be why you take that particular bloodline becasue that is what you want.
From your Bloodline depends your Tradition, your Bloodline Spells, your Blood Magic and your Focus Spells. So you can choose a Bloodline for a lot of reasons unrelated to the Focus Spells it gives, especially when you consider that most of them are pretty bad. And that's without taking into account how a Bloodline is heavily weighted from an RP perspective.
However all of them have a follow up Bloodline Power that costs only one feat to get and is very good. So you are going to want to use you focus point on that.
These ones ask for feats. Obviously, if you invest feats to grab a specific Focus Power you'll avoid to also take Amp Guidance as it has the potential to siphon all your Focus Points quite easily.
But the Sorcerer class by itself has cheap Focus Points: Its Focus Spells are quite bad and there's no need for them for the class to operate at peak efficiency. Like the Wizard, Cleric and Summoner. For other casters, grabbing Amp Guidance has an impact on their efficiency as their Focus Spells are more weighted in the class balance.
The group consists of a two handed fighter, a redeemer champion, a cleric, a rogue, and myself a Sorcerer. Would a Sorcerer be the best fit here? Or because we have 3 melee combatants would a Bard be the better choice? I thought they made blasting effective in this version but perhaps I was wrong.
The group consists of a two handed fighter, a redeemer champion, a cleric, a rogue, and myself a Sorcerer. Would a Sorcerer be the best fit here? Or because we have 3 melee combatants would a Bard be the better choice? I thought they made blasting effective in this version but perhaps I was wrong.
Blaster-caster is okay in PF2, but it's not great. That's one fo the things that was making Kineticist so eagerly awaited. What do I see about this group...?
- You have three melee characters, including the significant majority of your damage-dealing. That means that melee-boosting gets a fair bit stronger. It also means that the party is going to need some ranged support.
- You have a rogue. Dirge of Doom + Dread Striker is a thing. Not only is it effective on its own, it also makes mid-range combat a lot more feasible for the rogue.
- Right now, you don't have a lot of area-effect attacks. This, I think, would be the real benefit of the sorceror.
Still, in that party? I'd say go with the Bard, do the traditional bard cheese of arranging for an ancestry that can get you Lightning Arc, and try to pick slot spells that can take care of the situations your party is bad at handling.
You'll want to stack at least some healing, though. Clerics are great, but in PF2, you don't want all of the healing to be on one character.
Interesting, yes the idea would be for the sorcerer to be the AoE blaster which the group lacks and which bards aren't very good at. The Champion can provide some healing in addition to the Cleric?
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The group consists of a two handed fighter, a redeemer champion, a cleric, a rogue, and myself a Sorcerer. Would a Sorcerer be the best fit here? Or because we have 3 melee combatants would a Bard be the better choice? I thought they made blasting effective in this version but perhaps I was wrong.
If you are looking from a purely mechanicaly point of view a Bard is good value
with a party size of 4. Once the party size gets to 5 they are exceptional.Does your Cleric like Heroism and Bless?
A Sorcerer is definitely adding to your ranged, area damage, and control options compared to a Bard.
What do you want to play? That is a far more important consideration.
The group consists of a two handed fighter, a redeemer champion, a cleric, a rogue, and myself a Sorcerer. Would a Sorcerer be the best fit here? Or because we have 3 melee combatants would a Bard be the better choice? I thought they made blasting effective in this version but perhaps I was wrong.If you are looking from a purely mechanicaly point of view a Bard is good value
with a party size of 4. Once the party size gets to 5 they are exceptional.Does your Cleric like Heroism and Bless?
A Sorcerer is definitely adding to your ranged, area damage, and control options compared to a Bard.
What do you want to play? That is a far more important consideration.
I think I'm leaning towards Sorcerer although Bard are incredibly fun in my past experience with them. The Bard was indeed quite helpful, but I think adding some more dmg with the Sorcerer certainly doesn't hurt. Our Cleric indeed does have Healing Font, not sure about Bless though I don't think so. My sorcerer will be using Demoralize frequently and once I get the Heightened version of Fear I will be using that. I guess we will lose out on Inspire Courage.
If you stick to primal, you can pick up Bless yourself. It’s a useful buff, of course, but is also nice to have up for Scorching Ray.
Ugh I just checked out Bless closely, it is awful. But your right it would be useful for Scorching Ray. Having to spend an action to concentrate to increase its radius 5' is terrible :( Oh how I miss Bless the original from PF1.
Ugh I just checked out Bless closely, it is awful. But your right it would be useful for Scorching Ray. Having to spend an action to concentrate to increase its radius 5' is terrible :( Oh how I miss Bless the original from PF1.
That part isn’t great, but the 5’ radius doesn’t require sustaining. Plus, how often are you using all three actions for three rays? One action to boost the radius, and two for two rays is a solid turn (helps if you go before allies).
My current game has a fighter with the marshal archetype and my sorcerer with a shining wayfinder. Between the two of us, we can keep a +1 status bonus up nearly every fight we need it, and with clever positioning can keep most party members within the effects.
One thing that I have learned about encounters in this system is that it is often not a bad idea to let the enemies approach first when there is distance from engagement, which there usually is. That buys a round to cast buffs or begin a stance and maybe a readied action while the enemy uses its actions to close the distance. They still may get an attack or two off, but against a buffed party who now have all their actions to hit back.
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Ugh I just checked out Bless closely, it is awful. But your right it would be useful for Scorching Ray. Having to spend an action to concentrate to increase its radius 5' is terrible :( Oh how I miss Bless the original from PF1.
I also find Bless to be useless because of its awful radius and the need to sustain every round.
Well, there are many spells you can miss from PF1, most have been nerfed.
Ugh I just checked out Bless closely, it is awful. But your right it would be useful for Scorching Ray. Having to spend an action to concentrate to increase its radius 5' is terrible :( Oh how I miss Bless the original from PF1.That part isn’t great, but the 5’ radius doesn’t require sustaining. Plus, how often are you using all three actions for three rays? One action to boost the radius, and two for two rays is a solid turn (helps if you go before allies).
My current game has a fighter with the marshal archetype and my sorcerer with a shining wayfinder. Between the two of us, we can keep a +1 status bonus up nearly every fight we need it, and with clever positioning can keep most party members within the effects.
One thing that I have learned about encounters in this system is that it is often not a bad idea to let the enemies approach first when there is distance from engagement, which there usually is. That buys a round to cast buffs or begin a stance and maybe a readied action while the enemy uses its actions to close the distance. They still may get an attack or two off, but against a buffed party who now have all their actions to hit back.
Interesting this is a different approach, I always read so much about the importance of going first and how it is like getting an extra turn etc.
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Interesting this is a different approach, I always read so much about the importance of going first and how it is like getting an extra turn etc.
Yeah. The idea is that if your starting position means that you would spend the majority of your extra turn just moving, then you would be better served spending the extra turn buffing and let the enemy do the moving.
It is still a good benefit to win initiative and take your turn first. It does still effectively give you an additional turn.
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And SuperBidi, Bless doesn't need to be sustained every round. It lasts for its entire duration if you cast and ignore.
The non-sustain action the spell gives you only expands the radius. It doesn't extend the duration of the spell.
So if you want to use it only for yourself or adjacent allies, it makes a great buff spell if you can afford the time to cast it initially.
