While tweaking a summoner character, I found myself considering the 1d6 forceful sweep primary attack option.
However, I couldn't help but notice that they lower the damage die from 1d8 to 1d6. Doesn't that defeat the purpose?
Let's say I have a major striking rune. That's +4 to damage on the second attack, and a whopping +8 to damage if I'm lucky enough to land a third. Sounds like it'd be great for finishing off weak mooks quickly.
BUT!
The average difference between 4d8 and 4d6 damage is...
...4 damage.
Sure, I still get the +8 on the third attack, but that will only land once in a blue moon. Realistically, the multiple attack penalty will eat that right up, even with Sweep against multiple opponents.
Say I make three attacks to get ALL the bonuses this attack form has to offer. I get 0+4+8=+12 damage to damage if all land. Versus the 4+4+4=12 damage with higher attack bonuses and attack routine versatility that I gave up if I didn't take this option at all.
I have not actually done the math (it's not a strong suit for me), so feel free to double check me on this, but I think I might be right. +4 damage on an attack that is far more likely to hit and crit is FAR more valuable than +8 on one that is unlikely to hit and rarely crit.
Would you not do more damage, on average, by sticking with one of the 1d8 options?
Also, why would you ever consider a +1 from sweep for 4d6, when all eidolons have access to a secondary Agile attack for the same damage and attack modifier on the second attack, and a BETTER attack modifier on the third?
Is there any benefit at all to selecting the 1d6 forceful sweep option over ANY of the 1d8 options?
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If you are going to make a lot of 3rd attacks with generally, forceful is better than a one die increase. That’s marginally true generally, but if you are benefiting from sweep it is always true. The question is how often you will be making third attacks?
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If you are going to make a lot of 3rd attacks with generally, forceful is better than a one die increase.
I'm not sure that's right.
Forceful is +1/die on the second attack and +2/die on the third attack.
So three attacks with a d8 weapon is 4.5/4.5/4.5 average damage per swing.
d6 forceful is 3.5/4.5/5.5.
The average damage is identical, if all three attacks hit, but forceful moves damage away from your most accurate attack and instead puts it on your least. With a three action routine, forceful is exactly the same if you never miss and worse in all other circumstances.
Even at four attacks per turn they're fairly similar.
You need to be fully utilizing sweep for the d6 to be competitive (and even then the operative word is competitive, not superior).
DPR on 3rd attacks hinges heavily upon crit damage, because the odds on getting a crit with your third attack are pretty consistently 5% unless you are way out of your league, and the damage contribution of a regular hit drops significantly, especially for non-fighters.
I will look at the math again tomorrow because starting accuracy plays a big role in which is better and I think it is the case that forceful is better on a 3 attack round for standard martials, while fighters are better off with the higher damage die, except in situations where a 3rd attack can’t crit.
But getting sweep on it really helps a lot because it keeps the 3rd attack in crit range pretty consistently.
PF2 DPR math is incredibly complicated because there are certain accuracy ranges where one thing is true, but shift accuracy up or down 2 points and then the situation changes.
No I had that backwards, the break point is at the other end of accuracy with forceful. You need bonuses to make it worthwhile
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I would always pick the 1d8 or the finesse one.
Sweep, I think, is one of the least valuable traits a weapon can have.
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I would always pick the 1d8 or the finesse one.
Sweep, I think, is one of the least valuable traits a weapon can have.
I'm starting to come around to that thinking as well.
It actively discourages fundamental tactics like focus fire and is only ever really useful when your previous attack dropped an enemy and you have another target within reach.
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I just don't see a lot in favor of things like sweep and swipe since in the games I'm in I'm rarely able to attack two different enemies without moving between attacks. But your experience mike be different.
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Slightly off topic, but d6 Fatal d10 does the same average damage than d8. It does higher damage on high accuracy attacks, lower otherwise until you get to extremely low accuracy where critical hits make most of your damage output.
Otherwise, Paizo values Forceful and Sweep way too much. Forceful is equivalent to a third of a die increase on most characters. Sweep is hyper situational and can be ignored unless you have Swipe. Together, they should be equivalent to Deadly d8 (half of a die increase). But Paizo values them as a full die increase.
Slightly off topic, but d6 Fatal d10 does the same average damage than d8. It does higher damage on high accuracy attacks, lower otherwise until you get to extremely low accuracy where critical hits make most of your damage output.Another reason not to risk forgoing disarm + trip/shove and an average better damage die :d
I disagree, it depends a lot on the party and what you want to do with your Eidolon. Of course if you value Trip, you'll take the d8. But if you don't, the d6 has many assets and I'd personally go for this one.
What would be those assets?I disagree, it depends a lot on the party and what you want to do with your Eidolon. Of course if you value Trip, you'll take the d8. But if you don't, the d6 has many assets and I'd personally go for this one.Slightly off topic, but d6 Fatal d10 does the same average damage than d8. It does higher damage on high accuracy attacks, lower otherwise until you get to extremely low accuracy where critical hits make most of your damage output.Another reason not to risk forgoing disarm + trip/shove and an average better damage die :d
d6 Fatal d10 does exactly the same average damage than d8 on a first attack against an at level enemy. Damage increases faster if you get bonuses and decreases faster if you have penalties.
In a party with a lot of attack buffs (Bard, one for all Swashbuckler) the d6 Fatal will net higher damage. Also, damage is concentrated on one single attack, so you get more of single attack bonuses (Aid, Guidance) by using them on the Eidolon. I think it's a good reason to choose it.
d6 Fatal d10 does exactly the same average damage than d8 on a first attack against an at level enemy.
See? It's already worse.
I hardly understand how you can say it's worse when I say it's exactly the same.
Anyway, from your answer it seems you are not considering much support and in that case the d8 is better. But if you have proper support (buffs, debuffs, flanking), the d6 Fatal can net quite more damage. So it's really party-dependent.My preference is for the d6 Fatal, because of the role I expect from my Eidolon (secondary martial helping the big ones). But if my Eidolon was more central to the party, I'd have gone for the d8 because its damage is more stable.
I hardly understand how you can say it's worse when I say it's exactly the same.
Cause the comparison is just against enemies of the same level.
More specifically, I am talking about overall and not niche party based scenarios involving massive buffs/debuffs ( which was partially mentioned in the last part of my post, comparing expending a reaction to provide a circ bonus to hit or performing and AoO ).
Against the high AC of a same level enemy, they are equivalent. Against a level+2 with Flanking, they are also equivalent as the -2 in AC compensates the level difference.
If in your party flanking is niche, then take the d8. But I can assure you that Flanking + Inspire Courage is not a "niche party-based scenario" for everyone.
The d6 Fatal is equivalent to the d8. These ones are properly balanced.
As a side note, One For All is not a crazy niche situation. It's a staple if you have a Wit Swash in your party.
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Cause the comparison is just against enemies of the same level.
More specifically, I am talking about overall and not niche party based scenarios involving massive buffs/debuffs ( which was partially mentioned in the last part of my post, comparing expending a reaction to provide a circ bonus to hit or performing and AoO ).
I kind of get where you're coming from, but if you're leaving math fixers on the table in a gameist system with tight math, that's just a party skill issue.
Not that I think that makes fatal or sweep any better. The only traits I've found to matter in melee are agile, finesse, reach and trip.
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If you need to meet situational variables in order to stay in the same place as an alternative option that doesn't require said situational variables, it is not better, not the same, not equivalent. It is worse.
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If you need to meet situational variables in order to stay in the same place as an alternative option that doesn't require said situational variables, it is not better, not the same, not equivalent. It is worse.
I think this is a very common bit of conventional wisdom about PF2 that sometimes leads people to make bad choices. I too would side with Super bidi and error towards the attack option that does more damage when it is getting accuracy boosted, rather than the weapon that does more damage when I am attacking at a penalty. Why? Because there are often better things for me to do with my actions than attack when I am not in a position to maximize my accuracy.
The “average” situation in PF2 is not something that happens more than every other situation, it is something that happens more often than any other situation. That makes it a good situation to be prepared for, but not a situation to singularly specialize around, because you still won’t find yourself in it more often than you won’t.
A party that is frequently making attacks that are not as accurate as possible instead of spending actions to boost each other’s accuracy is playing more sub-optimally to begin with.
As a side note, One For All is not a crazy niche situation. It's a staple if you have a Wit Swash in your party.Requiring your swashbuckler to expend their reaction not to perfom riposte or AoA.
Not a good trade, IMO ( resulting in 1d8 + AoA/Riposte being better ).
The people who only play the best options don't play a Swashbuckler anyway. Wit Swashbuckler happens, I've crossed one.
As a side note, One For All is a massive feat. You may not see its value, I can assure you that a lot of people do. You have to remember that it also gives you Panache, with quite an easy roll if you have the proper feats. So Panache + bonus to ally against conditional AoO... That's not such an obvious choice.If you need to meet situational variables in order to stay in the same place as an alternative option that doesn't require said situational variables, it is not better, not the same, not equivalent. It is worse.
Maybe graphs will help people understand that they are equivalent without any situational variables.
I know it goes against your beliefs, but Fatal d10 is strictly equivalent to a die increase. And actually better in a lot of parties (I've know more parties with Flanking and buffs/debuffs than parties who don't do that at all).| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The people who only play the best options don't play a Swashbuckler anyway. So I think your point is moot. Wit Swashbuckler happens, I've crossed one.
As a side note, One For All is a massive feat. You may not see its value, I can assure you that a lot of people do.
I'll take this moment to second the sentiment about one for all. The feat is obscenely powerful, but moreso on a cha caster looking for a good 3rd action and reaction than on a swashbuckler. Aid being a static 20 DC and 1fA allowing diplomacy to be used for literally any aid check means your local bard is going to be handing out big circumstance bonuses on attacks in combat and every check out of combat. 11/10 feat that every party should consider fitting on their face.
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No graphs needed.
You already mentioned it's "equal" against enemies of the same level, which makes safer/better the standard 1d8.
The d8 is neither better nor safer, they are equivalent.
You can say that you prefer the d8 for whatever reasons but you really can't say it's better. It's a question of situations you meet more often in your games.And actually, if your party cares about optimization, it's the weak choice as buff, debuff and flanking as very common in optimized parties.
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the d8 attack were without maneuvers.
The maneuver trait on the d8 weapon is mostly useful if you take the high level feats like Weighty Impact. Otherwise, it's not much useful as it only allows you to add your weapon bonus on one type of maneuver. If you care about maneuvers, you'll certainly take a general item bonus applying to all of them and it will nullify the trait.
I can't see them equal.
The reasons I see to go for the d6:
- The Summoner is an excellent debuffer. Charisma-based caster with 4 actions per round makes for the best Demoralizes in the game.- When you have one boss and a lot of mooks, it's better to use the Eidolon on the mooks so your strong martials can put the boss down quickly instead of using your strong martials on the mooks. Unless you consider that leaving the mooks unchecked is ok and that your casters will handle them.
- When the Eidolon is strongly debuffed you don't have to attack with it, you can just play the Summoner.
- I like spike damage on the Eidolon because I don't want it to attract too much attention (it's not exactly a tank). Of course, it'll attract attention on a critical, but everyone does anyway in this situation.
- The Summoner is quite a nice buffer, both because Bard Dedication is excellent on it and because buff spells are not hindered by your lowered spellcasting proficiency.
- And obviously because Flat-Footed is so easy to grab that you'll certainly get it half of the time, putting the d6 Fatal roughly on par with the d8 against level+1 enemies.
And that's without considering anything about the party but the fact that the Eidolon is not the only martial. Other characters can have buffing/debuffing abilities.
On the other hand, I don't see much reasons to go for the d8 unless I specialize on one single maneuver (obviously Trip) or I have a very uncoordinated party (and then I'll certainly question my choice of playing a Summoner as it's not exactly the best character to carry a weak party).
So it's really a question of taste. There are legitimate reasons to go for one or the other.
Note: There's the question of critical immunity. From strict RAW, it only removes the doubling of damage and as such Fatal still applies. As critical immune creatures often have low AC it makes the d6 Fatal more interesting. But I know a lot of GMs who ignore critical hits entirely and as such it'll make the d8 better.
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While I do quite enjoy d6 fatal, and some of of the other options(especially for flavor) it's important to remember the summoner feats that give stuff like the knockdown ability require the equivalent trait. So it is not just for the item bonuses
While I do quite enjoy d6 fatal, and some of of the other options(especially for flavor) it's important to remember the summoner feats that give stuff like the knockdown ability require the equivalent trait. So it is not just for the item bonuses
You're right, I forgot about that. I edit my post.
I have not deep dove into the summoner myself, but it seems to lack any feat support for making use of forceful and sweep together. It really seems like you would need abilities to let you attack 4 times in a round like a flurry ranger, or to automatically do damage on a third attack, but all the abilities close to that either have the attacks split between your summoner and pet or else use your secondary attack.
Am I missing an obvious feat for it? If it is higher than 10th level, that seems really silly, and like that attack choice is an unsupported trap.
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While I do quite enjoy d6 fatal, and some of of the other options(especially for flavor) it's important to remember the summoner feats that give stuff like the knockdown ability require the equivalent trait. So it is not just for the item bonuses
You can always grab Trip with the level 1 feat "Advanced Weaponry" but if you want both Knockdown and Grab in your toolbox, you'll need to pick the d8 attack.
The most fun Eidolon, I think is the Plant Eidolon that grapples and trips people with enormous reach (make sure you and your GM can agree on how many limbs a tree has- it could be lots!)
I think a good rule of thumb is that abilities are balanced around them being used to their utmost, i.e. Power Attack & Weapon Storm being balanced around using a d12 weapon. In the same vein I think Sweep & Swipe are balanced around each other, a situation an Eidelon cannot achieve. And Summoners have better options if regularly facing a lot of minions.
And I'd prefer the d8 because I build for when my back's against the wall, penalized and facing a higher level threat, though I have players that much prefer the gamble (often choosing risky options in non-risky situations just for kicks). If such tense fights don't occur much, like in PFS, I'd be ambivalent, therefore would go with d8 simply for the easier rolling. Fatal seems particularly annoying, since I like to roll my d20 w/ my damage dice.
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I don't think Plant Eidelons gain any more hands than others: two. Otherwise PCs could go crazy with multi-tentacled Lovecraftian horrors (which BTW, is how I envisage my own plant/seaweed companion I'm considering). Who wouldn't add extra limbs, i.e. Sleipnir, Girallons, etc., if it made so much of a mechanical difference?
It is the forceful sweep combo specifically that feels like there was a feat or option for getting the Eidelon to make 3 attacks for 2 actions that either never saw print or is being saved for a future release. As it stands, it is pretty unusable as it is never going to be better than a single die increase for the summoner. I wanted to be wrong about it, but even with sweep, the math on three attacks is still better for the D8 with a +5 to attack. Eidelons are just not accurate enough to get over the hump of only critting on attack 3 with a natural 20, which is what it will take for forceful to be better.
Forceful in general is a very hard trait to make any use of because it costs so much, so far I've only seen it be good in Certain Strike builds and those "spam a billion attacks" builds.
Forceful and Backswing in my opinion are valued far too highly by the game.
Also, remember that the Eidolon has an Agile attack, which is way better than Forceful on a third attack.
Forceful and Backswing in my opinion are valued far too highly by the game.
I agree. Outside Dragon Monks, I don't see a competitive option with either of these traits.
Also, remember that the Eidolon has an Agile attack, which is way better than Forceful on a third attack.
Forceful and Backswing in my opinion are valued far too highly by the game.I agree. Outside Dragon Monks, I don't see a competitive option with either of these traits.
To the extent it is worth a dice size increment? I agree. Probably only Reach is worth a dice size increment, and only sometimes not always.
Also, remember that the Eidolon has an Agile attack, which is way better than Forceful on a third attack.
Forceful and Backswing in my opinion are valued far too highly by the game.I agree. Outside Dragon Monks, I don't see a competitive option with either of these traits.To the extent it is worth a dice size increment? I agree. Probably only Reach is worth a dice size increment, and only sometimes not always.
Fatal with 2 die increases is also worth a die increase. Double Slice Pick Fighter has maybe the highest damaging dealing 2-action sequence in the game. A massive build if you don't want to specialize too much in reactions and/or if you have quite the buffs behind you.
But the die increase is the simplest option in general, as the other ones are only competitive if you build around them.
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Also, remember that the Eidolon has an Agile attack, which is way better than Forceful on a third attack.
Forceful and Backswing in my opinion are valued far too highly by the game.I agree. Outside Dragon Monks, I don't see a competitive option with either of these traits.To the extent it is worth a dice size increment? I agree. Probably only Reach is worth a dice size increment, and only sometimes not always.
Fatal with 2 die increases is also worth a die increase. Double Slice Pick Fighter has maybe the highest damaging dealing 2-action sequence in the game. A massive build if you don't want to specialize too much in reactions and/or if you have quite the buffs behind you.
But the die increase is the simplest option in general, as the other ones are only competitive if you build around them.
That is my point about forceful and sweep for the Eidelon’s primary attack, there actually is no way to effectively build around those traits. The feats that do something close to making that attack option interesting don’t actually use your primary attack to make lots of attacks.
It seems like something that could be corrected with one or two class feats though. But without those feats, it is a directly inferior option that can only serve to trap players that might imagine have an Eidelon that makes lots of attacks, which is already pushing summoners into a dangerous play style. So as it exists now, it is a primary attack that encourages a high risk play style while offering a lower reward for doing so, than another option the player could choose for that play style.
At least fatal is the better option for the buffing crit fish build.
It seems like something that could be corrected with one or two class feats though.
I don't think it's possible outside of extremely convoluted feats. Forceful is in direct competition with Agile (one increase your damage die by one/two, the other your attack roll by one/two, and in PF2 the second is in general better than the first). As you have a free Agile attack with the Eidolon, Forceful can be completely ignored.
So you need to add options to make Sweep as good as a die increase. That gonna be hard (and dangerous for balance).