What archetypes fit really well with the kineticist class?

[Ravingdork]

What archetypes work especially well with the kineticist class?

During playtesting, I'm finding that Fair Wind is absolutely sick at low levels for boosting the speed of a kineticist's mount (such as from the Beastmaster or Cavalier archetypes) since it will always start its turn in the aura. This in effect boosts both the kineticist's speed and improves their action economy. This is especially true with a mature companion that can act without being commanded, effectively allowing the kineticist to move 50 feet (more or less, depending on companion choice) each round for free!

In my case, I have a dedicated air kineticist that rides a terror bird (more on that here). If I'm willing to dismount, or when we're both in melee, the Support Benefit is amazing when stacked with the Agile trait. I hit on those iterative attacks a lot more than other playtesters seem to as a result. I imagine it would work well with water blast's Sweep trait as well.

Whisper on the Wind is great for calling my mount over from long distances too. There's all kinds of cool little interactions like that. For example, I could ride my mount off a cliff without fear thanks to Air Cushion, or someday allow my mount to fly with Wings of Air. An earth kineticist's Stone Shield would likely pair well with the Cavalier archetype's Mounted Shield feat.

Between my long range and superior action economy and speed, we're borderline untouchable in open spaces. Still pretty strong when cornered too.

What cool archetype combos have you discovered?

[Gaulin]

I haven't tested it specifically but during our groups playtest our air kineticist and our fighter worked really well together, the air kineticist making difficult terrain in an aura and the fighter getting easy AoO's because of it (and they were usually flanking). Made me think that AoO would be really good on an air kineticist - just pick up fair winds and adjacent enemies can't step away.

[Guntermench]

Familiar Master could be interesting if you take the familiar. Acrobat's pretty good for a one and done, especially for Air. I think some of Sniping Duo works.

[Tweezer]

Fire kinecists with flame Oracle dedication specifically for getting the first cursebound domain spell, which deals persistent fire damage to anyone in a radius that takes fire damage (and offers no save)

Add on the fire kinecists aura that deals like 1 fire damage to anyone in a radius (again no save)

Add on aura shaping to exlude your friends.

Takes a little swtup, but it sure is fun

[Ravingdork]

Guntermench wrote:

Familiar Master could be interesting if you take the familiar. Acrobat's pretty good for a one and done, especially for Air. I think some of Sniping Duo works.

Familiar Master expanding on Familiar options is more or less self explanatory, but could you please elaborate on the others?

Tweezer wrote:

Fire kinecists with flame Oracle dedication specifically for getting the first cursebound domain spell, which deals persistent fire damage to anyone in a radius that takes fire damage (and offers no save)

Add on the fire kinecists aura that deals like 1 fire damage to anyone in a radius (again no save)

Add on aura shaping to exlude your friends.

Takes a little setup, but it sure is fun

Nice!

[QuidEst]

Sentinel seems like a requirement for strength-based kineticists, because you don't get medium armor.

[Verzen]

Sentinel

[Unicore]

Sentinel seems mostly like a waste of a lot of feats, doesn’t it? By the time it would be different from a single general feat, you’ve had 2 attribute boosts. So even if you start with a 10 dex (probably a bad idea for save reasons), the sentinel dedication is maybe giving you a +1 to your AC?

[Verzen]

Unicore wrote:

Sentinel seems mostly like a waste of a lot of feats, doesn’t it? By the time it would be different from a single general feat, you’ve had 2 attribute boosts. So even if you start with a 10 dex (probably a bad idea for save reasons), the sentinel dedication is maybe giving you a +1 to your AC?

For a single feat, you can keep dex at 10. It's not a bad idea for save reasons either since bulwark exists.

You can then use your increases on Strength, Con, then your choice of char/int/wis if you want more sociability, skills, or perception.

You're assuming that their stat increases would be given to dex, but with this build, no stat increases are provided with dex at all.

In fact, I'd wager that this is essential for a strength build since if you want 16 str, 18 con, the max dex you can have is like.. 12. Or 14 if you give yourself two negatives. If you have 10 dex, you can get full plate which is 6 AC, 0 dex or 19 AC (6+2+1) if you can wear it at level 1 or 20 AC at level 2.

Meanwhile if you go strength build and put 12 into dex rather than 10 WITHOUT the full plate, at most you'll have 2armor+2trained+1level+1dex = 16 AC at level 1 or 17 AC at level 2.

So you're spending a feat for a 3 AC gain by wearing full plate. So if you start out as champion multiclass for 1st level then switch to sentinel (if you are doing PFS) before you hit level 2 so you can do the free change up, then you'll have significantly higher AC by 3 if you put 12 into dex.. or 4 if you did not.

[Verzen]

Personally I think Assume Earths Mantle should be lowered to level 1 and scaled up with level to what it is in the playtest so if you want to play a strength based kineticist as found in Earth and what earth eludes to, you can right from the start.

[Unicore]

Verzen wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Sentinel seems mostly like a waste of a lot of feats, doesn’t it? By the time it would be different from a single general feat, you’ve had 2 attribute boosts. So even if you start with a 10 dex (probably a bad idea for save reasons), the sentinel dedication is maybe giving you a +1 to your AC?

For a single feat, you can keep dex at 10. It's not a bad idea for save reasons either since bulwark exists.

You can then use your increases on Strength, Con, then your choice of char/int/wis if you want more sociability, skills, or perception.

You're assuming that their stat increases would be given to dex, but with this build, no stat increases are provided with dex at all.

In fact, I'd wager that this is essential for a strength build since if you want 16 str, 18 con, the max dex you can have is like.. 12. Or 14 if you give yourself two negatives. If you have 10 dex, you can get full plate which is 6 AC, 0 dex or 19 AC (6+2+1) if you can wear it at level 1 or 20 AC at level 2.

Meanwhile if you go strength build and put 12 into dex rather than 10 WITHOUT the full plate, at most you'll have 2armor+2trained+1level+1dex = 16 AC at level 1 or 17 AC at level 2.

So you're spending a feat for a 3 AC gain by wearing full plate. So if you start out as champion multiclass for 1st level then switch to sentinel (if you are doing PFS) before you hit level 2 so you can do the free change up, then you'll have significantly higher AC by 3 if you put 12 into dex.. or 4 if you did not.

To get anything functional out of sentinel, you are spending a minimum of 2 class feats and a general feat. to be able to leave your Dex at 10 and never boost it. It also will only really cover your reflex save at level 10.

Starting with a 12 Dex is very easy, and by level 10, a 16 is all you need for light armor. With a single general feat you can pick up medium armor and be perfectly fine.

To get more back to the OP:
Unless you are playing with free archetype feats, Kineticists really don't want to be picking a lot of feats out of class. More so than any other class (although the witch is probably next up), most of the playtest Kineticist power budget is in your feats, not really in your innate class features.

[Verzen]

Unicore wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Sentinel seems mostly like a waste of a lot of feats, doesn’t it? By the time it would be different from a single general feat, you’ve had 2 attribute boosts. So even if you start with a 10 dex (probably a bad idea for save reasons), the sentinel dedication is maybe giving you a +1 to your AC?

For a single feat, you can keep dex at 10. It's not a bad idea for save reasons either since bulwark exists.

You can then use your increases on Strength, Con, then your choice of char/int/wis if you want more sociability, skills, or perception.

You're assuming that their stat increases would be given to dex, but with this build, no stat increases are provided with dex at all.

In fact, I'd wager that this is essential for a strength build since if you want 16 str, 18 con, the max dex you can have is like.. 12. Or 14 if you give yourself two negatives. If you have 10 dex, you can get full plate which is 6 AC, 0 dex or 19 AC (6+2+1) if you can wear it at level 1 or 20 AC at level 2.

Meanwhile if you go strength build and put 12 into dex rather than 10 WITHOUT the full plate, at most you'll have 2armor+2trained+1level+1dex = 16 AC at level 1 or 17 AC at level 2.

So you're spending a feat for a 3 AC gain by wearing full plate. So if you start out as champion multiclass for 1st level then switch to sentinel (if you are doing PFS) before you hit level 2 so you can do the free change up, then you'll have significantly higher AC by 3 if you put 12 into dex.. or 4 if you did not.

To get anything functional out of sentinel, you are spending a minimum of 2 class feats and a general feat. to be able to leave your Dex at 10 and never boost it. It also will only really cover your reflex save at level 10.

Starting with a 12 Dex is very easy, and by level 10, a 16 is all you need for light armor. With a single general feat you can pick up medium armor and be perfectly fine.

To get more back to the OP:
Unless you are playing with free archetype feats,...

For that single general feat of medium armor, it never goes to expert or master. It stays at trained.

[Verzen]

37 AC with medium armor at lvl 20

vs

42 AC with sentinel dedication at lvl 20

Champions get 44 AC

This is NOT counting any runes or shield bonuses or other bonuses. Just the armor itself.

Are you saying taking a general feat to just get medium armor prof is better than sentinel? By level 20, you're 5 AC behind sentinel.

[Verzen]

Unicore wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Sentinel seems mostly like a waste of a lot of feats, doesn’t it? By the time it would be different from a single general feat, you’ve had 2 attribute boosts. So even if you start with a 10 dex (probably a bad idea for save reasons), the sentinel dedication is maybe giving you a +1 to your AC?

For a single feat, you can keep dex at 10. It's not a bad idea for save reasons either since bulwark exists.

You can then use your increases on Strength, Con, then your choice of char/int/wis if you want more sociability, skills, or perception.

You're assuming that their stat increases would be given to dex, but with this build, no stat increases are provided with dex at all.

In fact, I'd wager that this is essential for a strength build since if you want 16 str, 18 con, the max dex you can have is like.. 12. Or 14 if you give yourself two negatives. If you have 10 dex, you can get full plate which is 6 AC, 0 dex or 19 AC (6+2+1) if you can wear it at level 1 or 20 AC at level 2.

Meanwhile if you go strength build and put 12 into dex rather than 10 WITHOUT the full plate, at most you'll have 2armor+2trained+1level+1dex = 16 AC at level 1 or 17 AC at level 2.

So you're spending a feat for a 3 AC gain by wearing full plate. So if you start out as champion multiclass for 1st level then switch to sentinel (if you are doing PFS) before you hit level 2 so you can do the free change up, then you'll have significantly higher AC by 3 if you put 12 into dex.. or 4 if you did not.

To get anything functional out of sentinel, you are spending a minimum of 2 class feats and a general feat. to be able to leave your Dex at 10 and never boost it. It also will only really cover your reflex save at level 10.

Starting with a 12 Dex is very easy, and by level 10, a 16 is all you need for light armor. With a single general feat you can pick up medium armor and be perfectly fine.

To get more back to the OP:
Unless you are playing with free archetype feats,...

You DO realize you stay as trained with the general feat, right? You don't go up to expert or master?

[Unicore]

Verzen wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Sentinel seems mostly like a waste of a lot of feats, doesn’t it? By the time it would be different from a single general feat, you’ve had 2 attribute boosts. So even if you start with a 10 dex (probably a bad idea for save reasons), the sentinel dedication is maybe giving you a +1 to your AC?

For a single feat, you can keep dex at 10. It's not a bad idea for save reasons either since bulwark exists.

You can then use your increases on Strength, Con, then your choice of char/int/wis if you want more sociability, skills, or perception.

You're assuming that their stat increases would be given to dex, but with this build, no stat increases are provided with dex at all.

In fact, I'd wager that this is essential for a strength build since if you want 16 str, 18 con, the max dex you can have is like.. 12. Or 14 if you give yourself two negatives. If you have 10 dex, you can get full plate which is 6 AC, 0 dex or 19 AC (6+2+1) if you can wear it at level 1 or 20 AC at level 2.

Meanwhile if you go strength build and put 12 into dex rather than 10 WITHOUT the full plate, at most you'll have 2armor+2trained+1level+1dex = 16 AC at level 1 or 17 AC at level 2.

So you're spending a feat for a 3 AC gain by wearing full plate. So if you start out as champion multiclass for 1st level then switch to sentinel (if you are doing PFS) before you hit level 2 so you can do the free change up, then you'll have significantly higher AC by 3 if you put 12 into dex.. or 4 if you did not.

To get anything functional out of sentinel, you are spending a minimum of 2 class feats and a general feat. to be able to leave your Dex at 10 and never boost it. It also will only really cover your reflex save at level 10.

Starting with a 12 Dex is very easy, and by level 10, a 16 is all you need for light armor. With a single general feat you can pick up medium armor and be perfectly fine.

To get more back to the OP:
Unless you are playing with

...

Medium Armor requires investment in Dexterity eventually anyway. There is no reason to be using medium armor on this class by 13th level when you get Expert proficiency in Armor.

[YuriP]

You still can take both to allow use of heavy armors!

[Guntermench]

Ravingdork wrote:

Guntermench wrote:

Familiar Master could be interesting if you take the familiar. Acrobat's pretty good for a one and done, especially for Air. I think some of Sniping Duo works.

Familiar Master expanding on Familiar options is more or less self explanatory, but could you please elaborate on the others?

Tweezer wrote:

Fire kinecists with flame Oracle dedication specifically for getting the first cursebound domain spell, which deals persistent fire damage to anyone in a radius that takes fire damage (and offers no save)

Add on the fire kinecists aura that deals like 1 fire damage to anyone in a radius (again no save)

Add on aura shaping to exlude your friends.

Takes a little setup, but it sure is fun

Nice!

I'm not really impressed by the level 2 feats, so grabbing Acrobat and then filling out the rest of your feats with the cool s*$$ is pure value, and Air will spend a lot of time flying so early Aerobatics Mastery while leveling another skill is also great.

Sniping Duo's circumstance damage just cares if you Strike the target, which you still do with Blasts. Targeted Redirection still works, Vantage Shot still works, Tag Team sort of works, Eagle Eyes. Not everything, but a lot of it still works.

[aobst128]

Verzen wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Verzen wrote:

Unicore wrote:

Sentinel seems mostly like a waste of a lot of feats, doesn’t it? By the time it would be different from a single general feat, you’ve had 2 attribute boosts. So even if you start with a 10 dex (probably a bad idea for save reasons), the sentinel dedication is maybe giving you a +1 to your AC?

For a single feat, you can keep dex at 10. It's not a bad idea for save reasons either since bulwark exists.

You can then use your increases on Strength, Con, then your choice of char/int/wis if you want more sociability, skills, or perception.

You're assuming that their stat increases would be given to dex, but with this build, no stat increases are provided with dex at all.

In fact, I'd wager that this is essential for a strength build since if you want 16 str, 18 con, the max dex you can have is like.. 12. Or 14 if you give yourself two negatives. If you have 10 dex, you can get full plate which is 6 AC, 0 dex or 19 AC (6+2+1) if you can wear it at level 1 or 20 AC at level 2.

Meanwhile if you go strength build and put 12 into dex rather than 10 WITHOUT the full plate, at most you'll have 2armor+2trained+1level+1dex = 16 AC at level 1 or 17 AC at level 2.

So you're spending a feat for a 3 AC gain by wearing full plate. So if you start out as champion multiclass for 1st level then switch to sentinel (if you are doing PFS) before you hit level 2 so you can do the free change up, then you'll have significantly higher AC by 3 if you put 12 into dex.. or 4 if you did not.

To get anything functional out of sentinel, you are spending a minimum of 2 class feats and a general feat. to be able to leave your Dex at 10 and never boost it. It also will only really cover your reflex save at level 10.

Starting with a 12 Dex is very easy, and by level 10, a 16 is all you need for light armor. With a single general feat you can pick up medium armor and be perfectly fine.

To get more back to the OP:
Unless you are playing with

...

The idea is that by 13th level, you can have enough dex to fill out a chain shirt or studded leather and then retrain out of armor proficiency. Sentinel has it's purpose if you don't boost dex past 12 if you want int or charisma for whatever reason. Multiclass concepts mainly. You'd still want the general feat and then pick up sentinel later on before 13th level.

[Blissey1]

Verzen wrote:

In fact, I'd wager that this is essential for a strength build since if you want 16 str, 18 con, the max dex you can have is like.. 12. Or 14 if you give yourself two negatives. If you have 10 dex, you can get full plate which is 6 AC, 0 dex or 19 AC (6+2+1) if you can wear it at level 1 or 20 AC at level 2.

what exactly are you boosting besides Dex? the only really important stats are str/dex/con/wis. int is only useful if you want more trained skills and char does nothing.

[Blissey1]

Verzen wrote:

You DO realize you stay as trained with the general feat, right? You don't go up to expert or master?

you do realize you don't get above trained until level 13, right? that one general feat does the same thing as Sentinel for half of your characters life.

[Ravingdork]

Blissey1 wrote:

Verzen wrote:

You DO realize you stay as trained with the general feat, right? You don't go up to expert or master?

you do realize you don't get above trained until level 13, right? that one general feat does the same thing as Sentinel for half of your characters life.

It's also worth noting that armor proficiency doesn't lock you out of archetypes you may want to take.

[AnimatedPaper]

Depending on GM interpretation, I got decent mileage out of the Thaum MC feat. The turn is if blasts get the bonus from Glimpse as if they were unarmed strikes. I think they should be, but hopefully tgat is explicitly allowed in the live version of the ability.

[khadgar567]

personally, i think the sixth pillar works much better than I must have eacy armor you guys are talking like my build would be sorc with sixth pillar archetype and kinny so I got good armor melee and at will blasting what your avatar the last void bender needs any way

[keftiu]

khadgar567 wrote:

personally, i think the sixth pillar works much better than I must have eacy armor you guys are talking like my build would be sorc with sixth pillar archetype and kinny so I got good armor melee and at will blasting what your avatar the last void bender needs any way

Worth noting that Sixth Pillar has been flagged for errata for over a year now, so I would only build around it with the understanding that the devs think it breaks the rules.

[Perpdepog]

It's a bit counter-intuitive, but a pyrokinetic mummy would work pretty well. Your class' increasing elemental resistance would offset the weakness to fire that you have from being a mummy, and you could stack the despair-style feats to make your character even more hideous for enemies to get close to.

[keftiu]

Perpdepog wrote:

It's a bit counter-intuitive, but a pyrokinetic mummy would work pretty well. Your class' increasing elemental resistance would offset the weakness to fire that you have from being a mummy, and you could stack the despair-style feats to make your character even more hideous for enemies to get close to.

It’s flavorful, too - there are mummies sworn to Irori, less Evil than usual and devoted to the triumph of self-mastery over death. The idea that an elemental martial artist might pursue power through immortality rocks.

Bonus points if you get weird with it and were an Ouat dwarf monk in life.

[Ravingdork]

I'm loving the idea of a cursed arctic mummy pyrokineticist that can never get warm.

[Sanityfaerie]

khadgar567 wrote:

personally, i think the sixth pillar works much better than I must have eacy armor you guys are talking like my build would be sorc with sixth pillar archetype and kinny so I got good armor melee and at will blasting what your avatar the last void bender needs any way

...but the kineticist can already get solid at-will blasting without having to invest in Sixth Pillar. Sixth Pillar is cheese, but it's not actually particularly useful cheese here.

/********/

I note that going witch for Elemental Betrayal is an option, and witch is one of the more efficient dedications out there. The stat requirement is a thing, though, as is the fact that it's two feats to get there and the fact that elemental betrayal is single-target. Might not be worth it for a single kineticist working alone, but if you have a party of people slinging the same element, then it could be very solid.

...and now I'm imagining a party consisting of an elemental witch, a flames warlock, a pyrokineticist, a bomber alchemist and a flame druid... all charhide goblins. The arguments over which kind of fire was the BEST kind of fire would be legendary.