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Hello all, I really need your help here.
I am playing with a 7th level Wizard with a bonded object and I want to add to it some spells with charges/day; based on the description of the bonded object on page 78 of the PHB:
" A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats and if he meets the level prerequisites of the feat."
So I want to add:
Cat's grace 10 charges/day
Gravity bow 10 charges/day
Windy escape 10 charges/day
To calculate costs I based on table 15-29 from page 550 PHB.
Bonus spell - Spell level squared × 1,000 gp
Charges per day - Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)
So a 1st lvl spell (gravity bow and windy escape) would be each: 1000 / (5/10) = 2000gp
2nd lvl spell (Cat's grace) would be: 4000 / (5/10) = 8000gp
BUT since creating an item costs half the price, prices would be 1000gp & 4000gp
I do fulfill requirements in GP and caster level to add these spells to my bonded object, buy my GM is saying NO because of some "rule in the master's book" that I don't know about and I'm getting quite mad.
So my questions are:
1 - Can I add these spells as I intend?
2 - If no, WHY NOT?
2a - And if not, WHY IN DANTE'S 9 CIRCLES OF HELL does the friggin book says A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats? if I won't be allowed to do what I'm intending here.
P.S. If you want some context, our party is a 6lvl Bard/1lvl cleric, one 7th lvl fighter, one 7th lvl druid and me a 7th lvl wizard and we recently were abandoned by our other 7th lvl fighter, meaning that future encounters may be a bit tough. So with the spells I want to add to my bonded object, I am planning to use my Wizard as an archer as well.
IF ANY ADMIN OR PAIZO MEMBER CAN CLARIFY THIS FOR ME WILL BE GREATLY APPRECIATED
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first the rule your gm is probably working with is the rule that ALL custom made magical items (as in items made with the table as opposed to those that you can already made with stats and a set price tag) need a GM approval.
-he can veto ANY of them by whim alone -and that is a rule.
2nd the rules also say that the costs list is a guidance and should be used if you can not find an item with similar powers already and if such can be found the item you make can't cost less.
"The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item. If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item, the GM should require using the price of the item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect."
for example an item that can cast invisibility at command should not cost less then 20,0000 gp no matter what formula you use as that is the price tag of a ring of invisibility.
so an item that give you 10 times per day cat's grace which is +4 to dex for a minimum of 3 minutes each would get you 30 minutes per day. if it only did that the price should not be over 16,000 (price of the belt) if it's the right slot or 50% for a different slot.
side note your prices are off.
the price is 1,800-2,000x(spell level)x(spell caster level) before the charges go into it (the 1,800-2,000 depend on method of use). so the cat's grace is listed wrong as it should be 2000X2X3 before the charges go into it so 12,0000/0.5 = 24,0000 gp for the cat's grace and 2000x1x1 / 0.5 = 4000 base price for the 1st level spells
also also. any ability you add past the first has it's price go up by 50%
so even if the 2nd level spell is the first power and you add the other two spells later (to make it cost less then +50% the expensive one) the minimum for an item crafting of this would be base price of 24,000+4,000x1.5+4,000x1.5= 24,000 +6,000+6,000 = 36,0000 base price and craft cost of 18,000 gp - for now.
next is the question of item slot. a power in a slot not meant for it (dex increasing is for belt for example). if you use an amulet or ring or other it's wrong slot. and using a wrong slot make the price jump by 50% more.
so the almost final price tag should be around 54,000 base price or 27,000 gp to craft
also also also prices of spells cast might depend on the spells duration. there is a difference between a spell with duration by hours and one by minutes (don't remember the price multiplier on the fly but you can look it up).
back to your questions :
1. not if the GM veto it. and even if he allow it -not at the price you posted.
2. read all the stuff i wrote above. basically gm can veto anything he doesn't like if it's custom made and you also didn't calculate the prices right.
3. you can always craft the not costum items that match your bounded item. if it's an amulet you can make an amulet of mighty fists for example if it's a ring a ring of protection etc. this option should not get vetoed by the GM without a reasonable reason (such as the GM doesn't allow said item in his game world. example a magic gun in a gunless world)
2a - And if not, WHY IN DANTE'S 9 CIRCLES OF HELL does the friggin book says A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats? if I won't be allowed to do what I'm intending here.
There's a difference between "you can add magic abilities" and "you can add a frankensteinian combination of different magic abilities that are unlike any preexisting item". It's a more limited (but free) version of the respective item creation feat, it doesn't let you do anything not everyone with the respective feat can do. For example, if your bonded object was a weapon, you could add +1 and flaming, but not a continuous True Strike effect, because such a thing isn't allowed to exist in the game.
my GM is saying NO because of some "rule in the master's book"
The what now? That kinda sounds like the GM is using 3.5 books... unless he meant the CRB, in which case never mind.
I am planning to use my Wizard as an archer as well.
That's a horrible idea. If you want to do damage, use spells for that, it will work much better than trying to make archery work on a Wizard, especially one with no feats put into it. Yes, spell slots are limited, but you don't have infinite fights in a day, either.
also also also prices of spells cast might depend on the spells duration. there is a difference between a spell with duration by hours and one by minutes (don't remember the price multiplier on the fly but you can look it up).
Only for unlimited or coninuous items, not for charges per day.
If you want many charges of low level spells, the common choice is wands. A wizard can pick up Craft Wand at level 5, and they can even choose whether to use a regular feat or a bonus one. Maybe your GM is open to exchange an existing feat for Craft Wand.
While you pay for every charge (7.5 gold for a first-level spell), in practice it's much cheaper than having an item with many daily charges. Actually, "Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)" results in infinite cost, because 5 divided by 10 is rounded down (default in Pathfinder) to 0.
Activating a magic item is usually a standard action, so you can't use Windy Escape with it. Alternatives are to simply memorize it - or to ask your GM whether he makes an exception.
Archery usually needs serious investment, especially feats, as Derklord already pointed out. One alternative is summons - even without specializing in them they keep opponents busy for a bit. Catch is that you have to juggle with their stat blocks, which needs some practice. Maybe ask the druid player whether they want to contribute summons, too.
Actually, "Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)" results in infinite cost, because 5 divided by 10 is rounded down (default in Pathfinder) to 0.
No, rounding is only done in the end, not for every step.
If your GM says no, then nothing anyone says makes a difference. Rule zero states that the GM is the final authority in any campaign he is running. No one can override him even the lead game designer.
If your GM is referencing a rule, simply ask him what it is. Getting mad at a rule you are not aware of is pointless and not going to help your case. If you have a disagreement with the GM, the best way to handle it is to listen to their reason and then research what they are talking about. If you disagree politely state your argument, but in the end, it is still up to the GM.
" A wizard can add additional magic abilities to his bonded object as if he has the required item creation feats"
This clause is really meant to turn your Bonded object into a similar magic object.
Example: if your bonded object is a ring, it can turn into a Ring of Protection that it also a bonded object. This is so that you can basically have your bonded ring, and still have 2 ring slots (since the ring actually takes up one of your slots, adding abilities to it allows you to have both)
Actually, "Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)" results in infinite cost, because 5 divided by 10 is rounded down (default in Pathfinder) to 0.No, rounding is only done in the end, not for every step.
Is there rules text for this?
Is there rules text for this?
- These are the rounding rules:
"Unless otherwise noted, whenever you must round a number, always round down." CRB pg. 8
"Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3." CRB pg. 12
Nothing asks you to round in the item pricing process, and there is no need for rounding until the finished price, and that doesn't even need to be rounded for gp, only for copper pieces.
4) The Cat's Grace effect is too cheap. A belt of incredible dexterity is 16,000 gp while the effect for your magic item is 10800 gp.
Well, wasting a standard action at the start of combat does weaken it considerably...
Is there rules text for this?These are the rounding rules:
"Unless otherwise noted, whenever you must round a number, always round down." CRB pg. 8
"Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3." CRB pg. 12Nothing asks you to round in the item pricing process, and there is no need for rounding until the finished price, and that doesn't even need to be rounded for gp, only for copper pieces.
The quoted example ("take half of 7") doesn't ask explicitely for rounding either.
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Thank you all for your comments.
So yes, my math was clearly wrong as I didn't consider the cost of spells' duration and the extra spells increasing its cost.
It's the first time I use a Wizard and I'm a bit dissapointed, IMHO spells are too situation-specific and I cannot be always prepared for either combat or whatever situation with the right spell (unless a combat is expected and I can prepare the spells I actually want to use).
Yes, as Derklord mentioned, spells can do damage as well, but once I have spent all of them the wizard is basically useless if the combat still goes on.
I am using an amulet as bonded object, so I guess I'll stick with adding a few Windy Escape charges just to avoid any surprise melee damage.
I do have the Craft Wand feat, so I may be crafting a wand of Cat's grace or gravity bow, just in case.
On a side note, I may be switching character to build a proper archer.
Again, thank you all for your comments, I really appreciate it.
In the words of Limp Bizkit "Keep rolling rolling rolling..." get it? hehe.
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The quoted example ("take half of 7") doesn't ask explicitely for rounding either.Is there rules text for this?These are the rounding rules:
"Unless otherwise noted, whenever you must round a number, always round down." CRB pg. 8
"Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3." CRB pg. 12Nothing asks you to round in the item pricing process, and there is no need for rounding until the finished price, and that doesn't even need to be rounded for gp, only for copper pieces.
2000/5*10 isn't rounded as 2000/∞. It is rounded after you have completed the operation.
You can't arbitrarily decide where you round an arithmetic operation.Note that if we use your logic we can say that the operation is 400*10, without any need to round the value.
Actually, the rule is that you do multiplication and division from left to right before doing addition and subtractions. So 2000/5 is resolved before multiplying *10.
Actually, "Divide by (5 divided by charges per day)" results in infinite cost, because 5 divided by 10 is rounded down (default in Pathfinder) to 0.
The operation is 2000/5*10, there is no "5/10" in it.
Thank you all for your comments.
It's the first time I use a Wizard and I'm a bit dissapointed, IMHO spells are too situation-specific and I cannot be always prepared for either combat or whatever situation with the right spell (unless a combat is expected and I can prepare the spells I actually want to use).
Yes, as Derklord mentioned, spells can do damage as well, but once I have spent all of them the wizard is basically useless if the combat still goes on.
So yes, you have found the inherent issue with Wizards, Situational Spells. This is, IMO, why the God Wizard Build (Buffer wizards) are the best choice. For the most part, wizards as damage dealers are sub par when compared to martials, however, your ability to buff is incredible. Haste is a spectacular spell, as well as utility spells such as invisibility, and teleport. At low levels a wizard has few spells, but should have enough to last through a normal day of adventuring (2-4 encounters).
Archers on the other hand, can deal damage an incredible amount of damage, by 11th level, they should be firing 6 arrows per round and dealing close to 100 damage. You can't go wrong with them if you care about damage output.
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I am using an amulet as bonded object, so I guess I'll stick with adding a few Windy Escape charges just to avoid any surprise melee damage.
Windy escape is one of those spells that are problematic when put into an item. Casting the spell is an immediate action, but magic items, generally, require a standard action to activate. And a standard action Windy escape is useless.
There are exceptions, but they normally are Use Activated in reaction to specific events (see the Ring of Feather Falling).The pricing of those items is very variable, and hard to guess.
Checking AoN I haven't found any magic item with Windy Escape as a prerequisite.
You need to ask your GM if it is possible to make an item with that spell.
I, as a GM, would ask you to specify 1 triggering condition (like "being attacked in melee while surprised") and still limit the number of daily uses and would keep the right to remove the power (refunding the cost) if the result seems unbalanced.
It's the first time I use a Wizard and I'm a bit dissapointed, IMHO spells are too situation-specific and I cannot be always prepared for either combat or whatever situation with the right spell (unless a combat is expected and I can prepare the spells I actually want to use).
This is why you don't prepare situation-specific spells unless you know something specific is coming up. The best spells are those that are good in a wide range of situations. Related to that, you don't have to prepare a different spell in every slot. If you follow the above advice, you should have some spells that you want in almost every fight, which obviously requires having it more than once per day.
One important concept to realize is that everything is a means to an end. It's always the end that counts, never the means. The goal isn't to deal physical damage, the goal is to incapitate the enemy without suffering to much. Killing enemies quickly, using debuffs, boosting defenses, and using battlefield controll options are all means to the same end. A summoned creature may deal less damage than a Fireball or a martial character, but drawing attention away from party members can make them more impactful than either. Debuffs and battlefield control spells may not do damage, but they can heavily tip the ratio betwene your party's damage output and the enemies's damage output.
Take for example the spell Slow. It can drastically reduce the damage output of multiple enemies, so if you for example land the spell on three opponents who'd normally make three attacks per round, you've basically remove two enemies worth of damage from the combat, just as if you'd killed them. Considering that damage likely doesn't take out two (strong) enemies in a round, be it a Fireball or a dedicated archer's full attack, that's a really good impact on the fight for a single standard action.
Another thing: Unless your campaign is extremely social-heavy, your highest two spell levels should only be combat spells (including spells like Fly that can both be combat and non-combat spells). Non-combat spells don't usually need the highest DCs, and it's normally fine to use only lower spell slots on them, which would be weak in combat anyway.
I am using an amulet as bonded object, so I guess I'll stick with adding a few Windy Escape charges just to avoid any surprise melee damage.
That spell at best prevents 10 damage, and you should expect more and more enemies to bypass DR/magic. Plus, as Diego Rossi said, it doesn't really work from an item.
A Wizard's defenses usually come from the spells Invisibility, Blur, Mirror Image, Displacement, and Fly/Overland Flight. You shuld also maintain Mage Armor on yourself.
Oh, and since I was just speaking of your party's Druid in subjunctive mood: Pathfinder is an incredible flexible game, which results in class names carrying very little information. We have almost no idea what your party actually looks like, because we don't know how any of the party members are build like, or what they do in combat.
For the most part, wizards as damage dealers are sub par when compared to martials
Unoptimized Wizards compared to optimized martials, maybe, but the "Blasters are bad" gospel is actually just an urban myth with no basis in reality. I think a lot of it comes from Treantmonk making a huge logical error in his Wizard guide back then, when he ignored that damage from multiple characters stacks, and that killing enemies does debilitate them.
Also, the party has a Bard who'll be able to cast Haste next level, at which point having them cast Haste is likely a more efficient use of party recources.
The quoted example ("take half of 7") doesn't ask explicitely for rounding either.
If you are unable to understand what the rounding rules try to tell you, you should not participate in rule discussions.
Yes, if you ignore the quote from the "playing the game" section on pg. 8, the rounding rules don't really apply to their own example. To everyone else, the solution would simply be to not ignore that part. But apparently, you're special.
The rules are written to work, any assumption or interpretation that makes them not work should be taken to be faulty. Please remember that principle, and apply in the future.
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This is why you don't prepare situation-specific spells unless you know something specific is coming up. The best spells are those that are good in a wide range of situations. Related to that, you don't have to prepare a different spell in every slot. If you follow the above advice, you should have some spells that you want in almost every fight, which obviously requires having it more than once per day.
And that principle is even more important if you are a spontaneous spellcaster with a limited number of spells known.
While in theory the wizard can prepare just the right spells, in reality that rarely happens. Your chances of actually pulling off Schrödinger’s Wizard are about equal to going into a casino in Vegas and winning the jackpot on the big slot machine. The best you can really expect is to occasionally get enough warning that you can optimize your spell selection a little better than normal. Often this is a matter of eliminating useless spells.
In reality the best strategy for a prepared caster is to leave a few spell slots open. This is an often-overlooked ability of the prepared caster. This and the fact that they get earlier access to spell levels are their real advantage over a spontaneous caster. This usually works better for non-combat spells because you if combat happens unexpectedly, you don’t have a chance to prepare. The only drawback of this is that often means the prepared caster has even less spells available for combat.