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I think it's cool that con is their primary stat.
I don't think it's cool that the only thing it accounts for is class DC.
Class DC has always been an issue in pf2e, and why I've mostly avoided it. I'm not really sure as to the benefit of such a low DC is.
I'm curious as to what elementalist would have to give up in order to have legendary in their class DC.
If it's martial progression, I'd rather have it as an option than the default. Because I prefer the martial aspect of the class anyways.
I also get the impression brutal is for those they run 16 str/Dex and 12 con and just ignore class DC. Wich as it stands right now is probably what I'll do. I'm ok with caster DC but trying to make me play a blaster with less than that is impossible.
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Using some necrotopic powers to not create another topic about Con.
I was thinking here a few things about Con and other stats:
With all that in mind, why not just make Elemental Blast use Con instead of Str or Dex? This would improve the hit rate to stand apart from other martial artists, it would eliminate the thematically weird need of having to be a Gigachad to be strong with melee Blasts, it solves the issue of needing medium armor (you can easily put 16 in Dex and wearing light armor), gives a slightly better Boost to ranged attacks using earth, as the damage bonus could simply become +2 (with a special variant of the propulsive trait using half the Con bonus instead of Str) and there would be more stat points to invest in other things like a 3rd stat to use skills.
In short, it would solve a lot of problems that affect the class today, without having to use various workarounds to compensate, and it would be more flavorful for the class because the hit and damage ability of impulses would be based on char power and control over the gate and no more on the character physical stats.
Another possible solution would be to make the class' ability score boost be the player's choice of Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution, depending on whether they wanted to focus on melee blasts, ranged blasts, or area blasts and effects.
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Yeah I can see that "let's keep it to design standards" being the logic, but I don't think it really works with kineticist in practice.
Like, there should be some reason why in theory why it would be a valid option to eventually build up to +7 con.(with 8 class hp with 7 mod would equal to 10 hp class with +5 con mod anyway, so you wouldn't be best hp tank either)
Thaumaturge has special recall knowledge that works on every monster and is used with charisma, alchemists gets more usable reagents with int, inventor's overdrive bonuses and most of feats are based on either int or craft bonus, investigator can use stratagem to substitute int for attack roll and so on. None of those really need +7 or even +6 stat, but there is benefit for them why it'd be viable option.
The "it only affects statistics and class dc" isn't really enough for key stat if it doesn't affect gameplay otherwise. So basically, even if they want to keep elemental strike to work with str and dex, they should add some sort of bonus to it with con that is worth to use.(and hopefully not too action economy expensive x'D)
(I also think that con should be useful for a base kineticist class feature and not just for class feats either.)
What would people think about a crit-negation ability tied to Con? Very in theme for the class channeling elements through their bodies.
Whenever an opponent would critically hit the kineticist, that creature must attempt a flat check with a DC equal to the kineticists Con modifier. On a failure, the attack becomes a normal hit
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The biggest risk of making Con do everything for the class is that it would make the drained condition incredibly, unbelievably destructive for this class. Having all of your accuracy and damage options tied to your HP and Fortitude save stat means your character basically sits out or dies pretty quickly if they end up drained. Like clumsy on a thief is bad, but it is not also drastically lowering their HP as well and at least they have skills enough to probably have other ways to contribute in combat.
Con for blast accuracy would also way over SAD the class. It would be like if Druids could get HP for Wisdom and be able to cast cantrips with 1 action.
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Honestly on further thinking of it, I agree that I don't think str/dex elemental blast needs to be removed, their presence would allow for more possible builds than if str was complete dumb stat(I still am grumpy about how charisma is dumb stat if you don't do cha skills)
I think what kineticist basically needs is being given con based damage boost ability for blasts similar to how every other martial has a damage booster. I don't think Kineticist's class DC based abilities should be treated as that damage boost by itself, especially assuming there won't be legendary class DC in entire system.
If con was main way of increasing damage, then it would be natural to do con and dex physical build with str being either for extra damage or "use archetypes to get medium armor" build. Inventor can do both strength build and get increased damage from intelligence so I don't see why similar dealio wouldn't work here.
(that said, all that matters is that there is good reward for investing into con, not whether str is usable by kineticist or not. Alternative option would be that kineticist uses con for accuracy, str for damage and dex for ac, but I don't know if that would be underwhelming or too much of MAD class?
Max stat for non key stat is always +5 or +6 with apex item. So if con isn't important enough for +7 to be tantalizing, then people will just go for +6 in str or dex and leave con at +4 or +5 because of course you want to use your blasts as main feature rather than just relying on master dc +7 save abilities. If class was given legendary blast proficiency but otherwise same, I think right now people would still go for either str or dex rather than con focus because con doesn't add anything to blasts right now. I think ideal change would be that whatever reward con gives, even if kineticist had legendary blast proficiency the player might still go for +7 con because having only +5 in dex/str in exchange for it is worthwhile trade.)
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The biggest risk of making Con do everything for the class is that it would make the drained condition incredibly, unbelievably destructive for this class. Having all of your accuracy and damage options tied to your HP and Fortitude save stat means your character basically sits out or dies pretty quickly if they end up drained. Like clumsy on a thief is bad, but it is not also drastically lowering their HP as well and at least they have skills enough to probably have other ways to contribute in combat.
Con for blast accuracy would also way over SAD the class. It would be like if Druids could get HP for Wisdom and be able to cast cantrips with 1 action.
"Con for blast accuracy would also way over SAD the class. It would be like if Druids could get HP for Wisdom and be able to cast cantrips with 1 action."
Your analogy makes no sense.
Druids can cast electric arc and add their wisdom modifier to damage.
Electric arc is not a basic attack that can be done 3 or more times a round. No attribute needs: basic attacks, damage, saving throw, class DC, and HP. Wisdom is already seen as an uber stat without including basic attacks (and the damage they do) and HP.
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Class DC is determined by key ability score, this would just make them more accurate and no one would pick CON.
You could do the monk thing where their class DC is determined by their KAS, but the DC on their Ki Spells is always based on Wisdom.
But I don't want the Kineticist to be a Str/Dex (or Cha/Wis/Int) class, I want it to be a Con class. The arguments for Con are thematic rather than mechanical- the idea of the kineticist is that you have an internal gate through which you channel elemental energy, and harnessing this power requires incredible endurance- you're not better at this because you have muscles, or you're fast, clever, or charming. All they need to do is to make it clear that by having a high constitution you are better at opening, widening, maintaining, and keeping open your internal gate because of your incredible toughness.
"Best fort saves in the game" and "as much HP as the barbarian with 12 Con" aren't a selling point.
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The biggest risk of making Con do everything for the class is that it would make the drained condition incredibly, unbelievably destructive for this class. Having all of your accuracy and damage options tied to your HP and Fortitude save stat means your character basically sits out or dies pretty quickly if they end up drained. Like clumsy on a thief is bad, but it is not also drastically lowering their HP as well and at least they have skills enough to probably have other ways to contribute in combat.
Con for blast accuracy would also way over SAD the class. It would be like if Druids could get HP for Wisdom and be able to cast cantrips with 1 action.
I don't think drained condition would be much more terrible than clumsy condition is for thief. I also don't think Con would be a better SAD than Wiz already is for Druid, druids may not have a higher HP but have access to healing spells, Wiz is not only useful for Will and Perception but is also the basis for many skills useful like Medicine, Nature, Religion and Survival and maybe they can't use it for 1 action attacks from the start but after lvl 13 they can already cast Fiery Body and start doing it with the Create Flame cantrip with extra dice like 1 action , on the same turn they can use Combution with an extra die or EA against their opponents or fly like the Human Torch.
IMO I don't think there is any problem using Con for Elemental Blast, it won't create any imbalance problem. Drained isn't that common and will be an acceptable risk for many players (maybe not if the designers resurrect Burn as drained) and Drained 1, for example, will be no different than the current usage of Dex/Str already is.
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Con to attack would be weird. It would make sense if they're cantrips but since they're attacks, it should still use strength/dex. Only other class that gets to change their attacking stat is investigator which is only once a round so I don't know if it would fit as a strict replacement especially...
There's a thing that many people forget but Elemental Blast isn't really a Strike but it's a Impulse! We forgot this because it's uses Strike action and can benefit from handwraps but it's still a magical attack with manipulate and concentrate and are subject to AoO and things like Globe of Invulnerability and completely disabled by Antimagic Field.
So remember it's isn't so good as a Strike it's appear to be good as one but not really.
Meanwhile con is basically useless except to determine DC of impulses.The biggest risk of making Con do everything for the class is that it would make the drained condition incredibly, unbelievably destructive for this class. Having all of your accuracy and damage options tied to your HP and Fortitude save stat means your character basically sits out or dies pretty quickly if they end up drained. Like clumsy on a thief is bad, but it is not also drastically lowering their HP as well and at least they have skills enough to probably have other ways to contribute in combat.
Con for blast accuracy would also way over SAD the class. It would be like if Druids could get HP for Wisdom and be able to cast cantrips with 1 action.
Aura shaping
Unless you like the idea of dealing up to 20 damage a turn to your party no save
I didn't understand? Most auras are completely independent of checks. Why are they being mentioned here?
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I didn't understand? Most auras are completely independent of checks. Why are they being mentioned here?
Aura shaping let's you exempt people from your aura effect equal to your con mod.
Absolutely needed for certain aura's like winters clutch
And technically gives con score another important use.
Oh you right. I forgot about this. It's really a good reason to keep Con in high values.
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I like the idea of Con being more relevant by being incorporated into more impulses.
You could add it as damage on damaging earth and fire impulses, half on none on wind and water, but wind and water get to ignore Con mod targets in the area. That way each has its own way to incorporate it that makes it both important and stand out from the other elements.
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I did short playtest of level 20 +7 con mod kineticist, first vs trivial foes then vs extreme foe. As said, I didn't exactly have energy to do it more extensively because its kinda mentally taxing trying to figure out new class at level 20 and remember all "PC" and "NPC" actions by yourself. So this is mostly updated observation on matter. Statline of str 18, dex 20, con 24, int 16, wisdom 18, cha 10
So take my opinions with salt, its kinda hard to judge lower level experience with class from high level. Like... On level 20, kineticist action economy feels bit silly, but as fire one you can have free gather element, ability to lower 3 action impulses to 2 and ability to move up to half speed before or after "casting" them. I imagine for characters not able to do that, overflow abilities might feel bit underwhelming considering they are essentially "at spammable every second round abilities" since normally you have to take at least one round of break to gather element again, though at least then you can stoke element to increase damage. But as said, I didn't test it at lower level so I don't know if it feels as "MWHAHAA WORLD IS BURNING" because it really feels like you have at will fireballs at your disposal.
But uh... Well two main take aways: impulse feat damage isn't too little really, because unlike spells you can spam them for all day and you don't need rest. So in that light Master only class DC also makes sense, though it does mean you kinda have to go with +7 con to stay competitive vs bosses though(as long as you have at least one ability that is able to target moderate or worse save of extreme boss :p), though your aim is really to just make crit successes harder by doing damage they can't avoid rather than having them straight up fail. Hitting them with strike is unreliable, more on that later, so being able to spam damage to their lowest save they don't critically avoid is nice. Second main takeaway is that this is indeed caster class and not martial in playtest version. Level 20 kineticist feels like caster with infinite spellslots, but slightly lower DC and damage of individual spell.
Yeaaaaaaah, (for con +7 kineticist) blasts are your backup weapon you use on turns you want to stoke element to increase damage for your big explosion for next round. They are comparable to wizard with +5 dex a +3 major striking weapon. The class feats that allow you to target multiple targets with two action costs are your main way to use them and mostly just because you can't yet cast overflow spell again, once at level 20 you can do so every round you kinda lose reason to use them. At level 20, unless I missed something which is possible, you need to crit twice with fire elemental blasts to do similar damage to your aoe "spells" failure damage to a single target.(especially if you stoked it for flat +10 bonus) Kineticist blast user is at best martial without damage or accuracy boost of any sort, besides stoke element on single attack.
To me math wise class is fine, but fun wise con should interact somehow with elemental blasts. Basically, it feels, like a +6 dex or str build with +6 con build is valid way to play kineticist where you have decentish strike(with lower damage output) on part with martials and infinite backup aoes with decent dc, but those two sides don't really interact with each other at all. So if you want to be elemental blast user, you can ignore con all you want without real reason to increase it, but its honestly probably better by level 20 to spam those DC 43 than use strikes(unless you are facing boss to which your only save type is weak vs it). There ARE some impulses that don't involve save, such as the one that replicates effects of wall of fire(that one was really hand vs the extreme soloboss :P), but I'd argue that really doesn't make blast build better, just means you should spam architect of flames instead of blasts.