While Keeper is organizing his Iron Gods (exciting stuff!), I wanted to ask the other people contributing here:
Would there be interest in Wrath of the Righteous without the mythic players? Enemies would still be very much Mythic, but players wouldn't. Yes, it's a lot harder this way! Not sure yet what a GM would do to compensate for it; maybe gestalt? Maybe extra feats? Or maybe nothing at all, would the challenge be something refreshing?
I've never played that AP, so I'd never miss the "mythic-ness", and I'd be absolutely interested.
Likewise, I've never played Iron Gods either, so that'd be cool too.
...yeah, I'm AP deprived. Mostly our group adapted older D&D modules for Pathfinder and Homebrewed them. ;)
Okay, Iron Gods sounds fun. I look forward to it. I'm assuming this is a seperate recruitment.
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For Wrath of the Righteous
I'm not familiar with the AP, but I worked with mythic and a lot of other rules.
Here are the change I'd make:
* A generous point buy. At least 25pts or a similar alternate system.
* Gestalt.
* 1 feat per level. It's always a good idea to be generous with feats for gestalt.
* Elephant in the room. This lets people choose interesting feats and not spend time on the basics
* I would consider the characters to be tier 0 mythic with no abilities. When some mythic abilities interact with non-mythic characters it's pretty extreme. The AP assumes people are mythic. You could go through all of the encounters looking for problems and changing them or simply assume that the PC's are barely mythic.
* I would grant the ability score boosts when the players would get a mythic tier that gives one. Being down several stat boosts would be a problem.
* I'd leave the possibility of additional future benefits open if needed.
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* 1 feat per level. It's always a good idea to be generous with feats for gestalt.
I'm in a game wherein the GM was tired of there being hundreds of feats that are never taken, so everyone gets three bonus feats at odd levels. 2 feats/level, effectively. No one in the game has a disruptive/OP build (grapple, trip, summoning etc), so I can attest that lots of bonus feats isn't inherently problematic, but it does add a lot of variety and opens up otherwise untenable builds. Enemies have the same bonus feats, of course, which can make encounters much more interesting than they otherwise might be. "What do you mean the enemy wizard is a professional luchador with a +37 to Grapple checks?"
I've also become a fan of free VMC of late. Barbarian VMC is really the only VMC that might actually be worth giving up half your feats for, all the rest are in 'kinda cool but not worth half my feats' territory.
* 1 feat per level. It's always a good idea to be generous with feats for gestalt.I'm in a game wherein the GM was tired of there being hundreds of feats that are never taken, so everyone gets three bonus feats at odd levels. 2 feats/level, effectively. No one in the game has a disruptive/OP build (grapple, trip, summoning etc), so I can attest that lots of bonus feats isn't inherently problematic, but it does add a lot of variety and opens up otherwise untenable builds. Enemies have the same bonus feats, of course, which can make encounters much more interesting than they otherwise might be. "What do you mean the enemy wizard is a professional luchador with a +37 to Grapple checks?"
I've also become a fan of free VMC of late. Barbarian VMC is really the only VMC that might actually be worth giving up half your feats for, all the rest are in 'kinda cool but not worth half my feats' territory.
What are the other rules for this game? I'm always interested in looing at other new build rules/house rules concepts.
Another, similar concept I've done is give everyone as many feats as they'd have if they were a fighter getting 1 feat per level instead of the 1 every odd level. Mostly for the same reason you've given here -- hundreds of options, and people only taking narrow chains of predetermined things if they only have a few slots to play with.
This Thread made me smile.
More than suggesting what a GM should do, I was hoping someone would either pick on the idea and run it, or at least say if would be interested or not! :) It feels as if people understood that I was asking what people would do, and I don't very much care (it's however the GM wants to do).
As someone who already ran this one in person from beginning to end, what I can say is that cutting one or two things out of Mythic won't fix it, as there are literally dozens of gamebreaking things in it - and that the enemies, besides being Mythic, are usually chumps that can be handled easily without Mythic levels especially from an experienced party with more than three or four people. Economy still hurts, even the "Fast" templated enemies. The few enemies that could be a problem shouldn't be hard to adjust; even just gestalt already puts the players on the enemies level, no need for all the freebies. Challenges can be fun too.
Anyway, I really like all the parallel discussions going on the thread through... It makes me feel that starting an AP beyond book 1 or 2 may be an interesting proposition for most of our players here. And there are so many strong opinions going on! At the end of the day, we're all here to have fun, and trying (and missing!) is part of it.
Personally I haven't seen that much of an issue with the lower Mythic Tiers. If you are starting at Book 3 or 4, make the party Mythic Tier 3 and stop there. Regain Mythic power with maybe an hour of full rest per point, or two hours of light exercise. (Walking around, not fighting or expending energy)
As previously stated, it goes off the rails at higher tiers! And is compounded when players sync their powers well....
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While Keeper is organizing his Iron Gods (exciting stuff!), I wanted to ask the other people contributing here:
Would there be interest in Wrath of the Righteous without the mythic players? Enemies would still be very much Mythic, but players wouldn't. Yes, it's a lot harder this way! Not sure yet what a GM would do to compensate for it; maybe gestalt? Maybe extra feats? Or maybe nothing at all, would the challenge be something refreshing?
It's the AP I would love to play and I have no idea what the Mythic issues are I'm in it for the story.
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What are the other rules for this game? I'm always interested in looing at other new build rules/house rules concepts.
All ability scores started at 0 and you had 80 points that could be spent on a 1-to-1 basis to increase scores. 8 and 18 were the limits of a score before racial modifiers, so it was more like all ability scores started at 8 and you had 32 points to distribute on a 1-to-1 basis. Still, made things like battle clerics or archer wizards more doable.
All characters counted as having BaB 1 for the purpose of qualifying for feats, since everyone got at least 4 feats at level one and most combat feats have BaB1 as a prereq.
Think those were the major things.
What are the other rules for this game? I'm always interested in looing at other new build rules/house rules concepts.All ability scores started at 0 and you had 80 points that could be spent on a 1-to-1 basis to increase scores. 8 and 18 were the limits of a score before racial modifiers, so it was more like all ability scores started at 8 and you had 32 points to distribute on a 1-to-1 basis. Still, made things like battle clerics or archer wizards more doable.
All characters counted as having BaB 1 for the purpose of qualifying for feats, since everyone got at least 4 feats at level one and most combat feats have BaB1 as a prereq.
Think those were the major things.
That's really interesting thanks!
So, you got 3 bonus feats every odd level on top of the normal feat every odd level? (as you said, would work out to 2 per level)
The other stuff I've played around with are
-increasing skill points (everyone gets another +2/level), + background skills (and I've just found a few new skills from a Little Red Goblin Games module I want to include in the future)
-skill unlocks are part of base system (signature skill feat free for all skills)
-combat stamina (combat stamina feat free)
-giving free racial feats
-giving free archetypes (i.e., stack not replace features, the point has been made to me that oftentimes gestalting base classes can lead to samey builds because one of the obvious strategies is to cross a full BAB progression with a full caster progression, though I know there are some other possibilities, that's at least a very common trend that that concept might lead to, the free archetype grants more abilities within a more limited 'track' on one class)
-gestalting two versions of the same class (like two versions of a wizard -- legendary wizard and spheres wizard, or two different alternative fighters)
Another, similar concept I've done is give everyone as many feats as they'd have if they were a fighter getting 1 feat per level instead of the 1 every odd level. Mostly for the same reason you've given here -- hundreds of options, and people only taking narrow chains of predetermined things if they only have a few slots to play with.What did you do for the Fighters, then, since the sheer number of Feats is a major part of the class? And all the other classes that give bonus feats as class features?
I gotta be honest, I'm not sure anyone ever played a fighter, so I don't think it's ever really come up that someone was dissatisfied with class balance or it was an issue -- mostly players in games like that are all playing 3pp. classes.
Also, once you use the unchained fighter from everyman games, or the legendary fighter from legendary, or PoW and SoM archetypes or abilities, there are a lot of things you can do with it beyond the Paizo core class to where I'm not sure it's such an issue any more. If you use all the rogue genius/everyman talented fighter and unchained fighter materials, that's over 100 pages of extra customization material. For PoW and SoM, you can use feat slots to get more maneuvers or abilities that alter maneuvers, or pick up feats that give more spheres abilities. There are also psionic and akashic fighter archetypes, and you could use feats for those systems too -- if you use more of the 3pp. stuff like that, and have more subsystems and abilities to spend the greater feat allocation on, there's more to potentially do with a class that's pretty simple in the core system.
Well I think the evolution of the class in 3p revisions made it more about a resource pool like stamina which makes it more like the gunslinger or swashbuckler, that or abilities with weapon groups. The other systems like akasha potentially give it something to do, though it might still not be as specialized or interesting as other classes
In a gestalt game with these rules I could imagine myself playing a fighter/urouge to get the most feats overall and most skill points, though i imagine that wouldn't be a popular option.
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* eats popcorn * Lovin' this thread. Not sure it's a recruitment-anything anymore, but it's interesting as hell.
I was about to say I'm happy to start a new thread if the OP would prefer. I like talking about build rules and theories of pbp, but I don't have any genuine interest right now in running or playing modules - I have several homebrew worlds and different versions of those worlds I spend my time developing instead. I was originally thinking about the later part of serpents skull based on the old lost city module, but I'd rather make of something similar myself in the end.
Well this is all very interesting stuff indeed! But I don’t think it’s the stuff for this thread or even the PbP recruitment forum anymore :) not to rain on anyone’s parade, but if you guys want to keep talking about it, I think it’s awesome but would recommend finding the right forum here in the Paizo boards :) and then keep this post focused on the “book 3 or 4 request” hehe
I built a Fighter for a Wrath of the Righteous campaign that had character creation rules that are similar to a lot of the things mentioned on here. This was a mythic rules game, but I don't know that it would have been needed.
I chose Fighter because her backstory is that of a former Gray Maiden so I wanted strength based sword and board TWF. She started as a Gorum worshipper but the plan was for her to eventually be swayed to Iomedae and go into Heritor Knight. She's quite the beast. I dearly wish I'd gotten to play her farther.
This is the avatar for the character if you want to see the 2nd level build, and the recruitment link is below. Easier to include it than to ferret out all the goodies we got. A few extras were added along the way and aren't listed up front.
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Sorry, its taking me a bit longer to get things up and running than I expected but I still am prepping and planning to do iron gods!