Reincarnate and Feeblemind

[Xavram5]

Recincarnate says "all physical ills and afflictions are repaired". Character in question got hit with a Feeblemind spell prior to dying. Would his new body still have the Feeblemind on it? Or would that be covered as a "physical ill or affliction"?

[Diego Rossi]

Feeblemind isn't a physical affliction. It changes the value of the creature's intelligence and charisma, and it can be removed only with some very specific methods:

Quote:

The subject remains in this state until a heal, limited wish, miracle, or wish spell is used to cancel the effect of the feeblemind.

[Xavram5]

What about something like Bestow Curse? Again, not a physical thing...so that would stick around as well?

[Diego Rossi]

Xavram5 wrote:

What about something like Bestow Curse? Again, not a physical thing...so that would stick around as well?

Yes.

[Boomerang Nebula]

I don’t agree on that.

Both Feeblemind and Bestow Curse affect “creatures”, not “corpses” (like Gentle Repose) or “dead creatures” (like Reincarnate). Both Feeblemind and Bestow Curse would cease working when a character dies so there is nothing for Reincarnate to remove.

[zza ni]

question : do spells duration end when the creature that have them cast on is dead?

unless you have proof for that, one can claim that even if these do not effect the dead, the target is no longer dead and since they are spells with a very specific way to remove them (non of which is 'target's death') then dying and coming back to life doesn't end them.

this is the same as claiming that once i get total cover all spells effecting me end since i can't be targeted by them when i have total cover (at least those that total cover prevent from targeting).

[Mysterious Stranger]

Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired.

The description of the spell also says it repairs afflictions. It does not specify physical afflictions.

[Ryze Kuja]

This question is a toughie. Spells with Permanent durations or Instantaneous durations that become permanent don't end on creatures unless the target of the spell becomes invalidated somehow per the spell's requirements for a satisfactory target (i.e. targets who die while cursed by Bestow Curse or Blindness will stay blind/cursed if resurrected in that same body), so the Feeblemind would indeed continue to affect the creature even after it has died. However, the Feeblemind spell's target is 'one creature', not 'one creature's spirit'; and secondly, Feeblemind is a Mind-affecting effect, and while the "mind" is an abstract construct, it is directly tied to the physical health of the brain, not the spirit. So, to suggest that Feeblemind continues to affect one's spirit after dying means that there are a lot of cross-eyed drooling spirits somewhere (which frankly, is ridiculous).

Here's how I'd rule that: If you resurrected the Feeblemind target in the same body, then the Feeblemind effect persists even after being resurrected. If you Reincarnate a spirit into a new body, the Feeblemind does not follow into the new body.

[zza ni]

" Spells with Permanent durations or Instantaneous durations that become permanent don't end on creatures unless the target of the spell becomes invalidated somehow per the spell's requirements for a satisfactory target"

can you post a link to this rule?
i can't seem find it. and does this mean that hiding behind a full cover will remove feeblemind? after all he "becomes invalidated somehow per the spell's requirements for a satisfactory target"

[Ryze Kuja]

zza ni wrote:

" Spells with Permanent durations or Instantaneous durations that become permanent don't end on creatures unless the target of the spell becomes invalidated somehow per the spell's requirements for a satisfactory target"

can you post a link to this rule?
i can't seem find it. and does this mean that hiding behind a full cover will remove feeblemind? after all he "becomes invalidated somehow per the spell's requirements for a satisfactory target"

Things that would "invalidate per the spell's requirements" would be if the spell's target says "one living creature" and then the "living creature" target of the spell becomes a "dead creature", therefore the spell ends because it doesn't affect "dead creatures".

Regenerate wrote:

Regenerate
School conjuration (healing); Level cleric/oracle 7, druid 9, shaman 7, witch 7; Domain healing 7

CASTING

Casting Time 3 full rounds
Components V, S, DF

EFFECT

Range touch
Target living creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

DESCRIPTION

The subject’s severed body members (fingers, toes, hands, feet, arms, legs, tails, or even heads of multi-headed creatures), broken bones, and ruined organs grow back. After the spell is cast, the physical regeneration is complete in 1 round if the severed members are present and touching the creature. It takes 2d10 rounds otherwise.

Regenerate also cures 4d8 points of damage + 1 point per caster level (maximum +35), rids the subject of exhaustion and fatigue, and eliminates all nonlethal damage the subject has taken. It has no effect on nonliving creatures (including undead).

Hypothetical example: what happens if your ally is targeted with a Regenerate spell and over the course of 2d10 rounds begins to regenerate severed limbs that you don't currently have access to, and then gets killed 17 rounds before the limbs can fully regenerate. Does the Regenerate spell stay active and the limbs continue to regenerate while the creature is dead, or is the spell's target invalidated and therefore the Regenerate spell ends?

I'm going to guess that you agree that the Regenerate effect ends because the target of "one living creature" has been invalidated by the target dying and becoming "one dead creature".

=======================================

2nd Hypothetical example:

With Resurrection and Raise Dead spells that have spell target requirements of "dead creature touched", and Regenerate spells that have spell target requirements of "living creature touched", and Undeath to Death spell target requirements of "undead creatures", when a spell has target requirement of "one creature", this could mean any creature living, dead, or undead.

With that in mind, here's the question: if a character takes his 2nd level of the PrC Agent of the Grave and gains the Undead Manipulator ability and allows him to bypass an undead creature's invulnerability to mind-affecting compulsions, and then casts Feeblemind on the undead creature, has the spell's target requirement of "one creature" been invalidated?

I'm going to guess that you'll say No.

=======================================

So, Feeblemind stays active on the target of "one creature" whether it's a living creature, undead creature, or even a dead creature. The Feeblemind spell's target requirement of "one creature" has not been invalidated by the creature dying.

[Pizza Lord]

For the purposes of reincarnate, feeblemind is not a physical ailment. Certainly what we call an insanity or disorder in real life can be the result of an 'unhealthy' brain or a physical injury or deformation or just a chemical imbalance, that's not the case here. Feeblemind is a [mind-affecting] spell, it is not a physical effect. It doesn't make your brain unhealthy. It doesn't say it offsets or inhibits chemical production or slows neuron transmission. It just does what it does. It affects a person with a healthy or unhealthy brain equally and a person with the healthiest brain in the world gets no extra bonus against it. The same with being charmed or dominated.

For game purposes it is a mental effect. Just like daze (a mind-affecting spell) makes you dazed, but a suitably powerful blow or ability might also make you dazed. One would be prevented by immunity to mind-affecting, the other wouldn't.

Examples:

----------------------------------------------
There could be things or actions or diseases that affect the mind physically (through injury or surgery) that result in mental issues or even a feeblemind-like effect; a disease that eats away your brain, resulting in mental damage or drain, or a parasite that eats away your brain and that translates to mental damage because of the physical damage being done; those are physical ailments. Whereas the touch of an allip could cause such mental damage but it's not affected (nor does it affect) how healthy your brain is or otherwise works (other than your newly altered perceptions based on your damaged psyche). Such damage, harm, or disturbing results of that interaction would still be with you and need to be cured or restored as normal, with time, therapy, or magical healing.

A soldier suffering PTSD before a battle (or even as a result of a battle) where he died would still have PTSD when reincarnated, even if the fact that he has PTSD is a result of reliving being shot in the head (which is physically damaging, and was fatal in this case), but the trauma is mental and not necessarily linked to any physical brain damage.

If a mage has magic jarred your friend and is in his body and you cast feeblemind on him, that doesn't prevent him from moving back into the spell focus or even trying to take over another body (it isn't spellcasting or an Intelligence-based ability, though he might not be doing it intelligently). If he jumps into a new body, he's still feebleminded. When the mage returns to his body, he's still feebleminded. Your friend isn't feebleminded when his spirit goes back into the body you cast feeblemind on.

Does this mean feeblemind is attached to the spirit and that it can be applied in all circumstances? Not necessarily. Sometimes yes, sometimes no, but in this particular one [reincarnate], where it states that non-physical ailments aren't cured it is. Does this mean if a person is feebleminded and killed and comes back as a ghost or ghoul that they're still feebleminded? No, because becoming a ghost or a ghoul doesn't go into such details (but a GM could certainly make such a creature be that way for story or plot purposes).
--------------------------------------

If you have trouble speaking and pronouncing words or have an accent, then you will still have trouble speaking and pronouncing words unless your speech impediment was physical (like because of how your mouth and tongue are formed, which might be different in the new body) or it was caused by a physical ailment, like a tumor that was growing in your head.

[Diego Rossi]

A target becoming invalid after the spell has affected it doesn't affect the spell in any way.

"Hypothetical example: Regenerate"

Quote:

Range touch

Target living creature touched

The spell effect ends because you don't touch the creature anymore? No.

Changes related to the target line don't change the spell effect after the targeting has been done and the spell has been cast.
What matter in your example is the actual text of the spell "It has no effect on nonliving creatures (including undead).", so the limb regrowth will stop, but your argument is that the targeting that matter.

2nd Hypothetical example: An undead is a creature, so I don't see what you are trying to say with your example.

=====

After the separation line:

In Pathfinder a dead body is an object, not a creature, so now you are arguing against your position, apparently, as you say that a dead body maintains the feebleminded condition while it can't be targeted by the Feeblemind spell.

[bbangerter]

Diego Rossi wrote:

In Pathfinder a dead body is an object, not a creature, so now you are arguing against your position, apparently, as you say that a dead body maintains the feebleminded condition while it can't be targeted by the Feeblemind spell.

A dead body is both a [dead] creature, and an object. It largely depends on context.

See Raise Dead target [dead creature touched], and Breath of Life target for examples [creature touched] vs Blindess/Deafness [one living creature]. Compared additionally with lots of spells that simply say creature or creatures in their target line. If it does not specify living or dead, than both are valid targets (though in most cases pointless against a dead creature target).

In other contexts dead bodies should be treated as objects.

[Matthew Downie]

Saying "all physical ills and afflictions are repaired" strongly implies that mental ills are not repaired. This suggests that a dead person can have mental illnesses. That seems weird, but let's say the illness is afflicting the creature's soul and continues to do so until Pharasma judges it. A dead creature isn't a valid target for Feeblemind because the soul is not in the body, but if the soul returns it is not magically cured of insanity, etc.

This would also imply that any pre-death buff spells that have not expired should resume their function once the creature returns to life.

[Pizza Lord]

Matthew Downie wrote:

This would also imply that any pre-death buff spells that have not expired should resume their function once the creature returns to life.

Kind of. There's no indication that a person with resist energy on them who dies loses its function and their corpse incinerates faster or items should still be protected for the duration of the spell, the fact that it only targets a creature and that creature is now a dead creature shouldn't change that. It doesn't 'resume' when they return to life. It should still be there and functioning, just whether that function is of any consequence at the time might be in question.

Obviously, if something really doesn't make sense, then don't do it. There are hundreds of spells, so there's likely some examples that don't work, but the spell's don't necessarily stop doing their thing.

[Mysterious Stranger]

The whole argument about it not being a target is pointless. The only time that the target of a spell comes into play is when that spell is cast. Once the spell takes affect the target of a spell has no meaning. If the target of a spell is still in play after the initial casting you cannot kill a creature with a spell that targets one living creature.

Reincarnate has two differences from other spells that bring back the dead. Unlike other spells that restore life reincarnate creates a new body for the creature. The spell also specifies that the creature remembers the majority of their former life. The second major difference is that it can bring back a creature that has died of old age. At this point is the creature still considered the same creature that was killed? The reincarnated creature also has a very good chance of coming back as a different race. To me all this indicates what is returned is actually a different creature. Raise dead specifies it restores life to a decreased creature. Resurrection and greater resurrection specific they function as raise dead but with some specific changes to the conditions of the condition of death. All these spells clearly specify that it is the same creature.

The newly reincarnated creature is not affected by the spell because it was never cast on it.

[Ryze Kuja]

For those who are saying that Dead bodies are treated as "Objects" and not "dead creatures". If your ally dies and you know the dragon is about to use his breath weapon on its next turn and possibly destroy your ally's corpse, can you cast Protection from Energy on your dead ally to ensure that the corpse survives so you can run/teleport to safety and resurrect him later?

Quote:

Protection from Energy

School abjuration; Level alchemist 3, bloodrager 3, cleric/oracle 3, druid 3, inquisitor 3, occultist 3, psychic 3, ranger 2, shaman 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, spiritualist 3, summoner/unchained summoner 3; Domain luck 3, protection 3; Bloodline destined 3, elemental 3 Elemental School air 3, earth 3, fire 3, water 3; Mystery volcano 3

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, DF

EFFECT

Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 10 min./level or until discharged
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)

Or would you instead allow Shrink Item + Apport Object to move the corpse out of the way?

Quote:

Shrink Item

School transmutation; Level occultist 3, psychic 3, sorcerer/wizard 3

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S

EFFECT

Range touch
Target one touched object of up to 2 cu. ft./level
Duration 1 day/level; see text
Saving Throw Will negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)

Quote:

Apport Object

School conjuration (teleportation); Level bard 2, medium 2, mesmerist 2, occultist 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, witch 2

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V

EFFECT

Range touch
Target one touched object of up to 1 lb. and 1 cu. ft.
Duration instantaneous or 1 hour/level
Saving Throw Will negates (object); Spell Resistance yes (object)

========================================

Or would you allow either of these to work? or neither?

[Diego Rossi]

When targeted on a dead creature Shrink Item and Apport Object work.

It is a bit strange that Protection from Energy and Resist Energy can't target an object, but RAW they work only on a creature.

[Ryze Kuja]

So if I cast Shrink Item on the corpse and Apport Object to move the corpse to the cleric, and the cleric casts Raise Dead, does Raise Dead fail because the dead body is an object? Or does Raise Dead affect the dead body because it is treated as a dead creature?

If Raise Dead does work, would the dead body be resurrected as a 1/16th size person? Or does the Shrink Item spell end?

If the Shrink Item doesn't end, can I cast Permanency on the Shrink Item spell on my ally to have a permanent 1/16th size character?

[Pizza Lord]

Ryze Kuja wrote:

So if I cast Shrink Item on the corpse and Apport Object to move the corpse to the cleric, and the cleric casts Raise Dead, does Raise Dead fail because the dead body is an object? Or does Raise Dead affect the dead body because it is treated as a dead creature?

Not to go too far off on tangents; bearing in mind that this topic is about reincarnate, not raise dead, and there would be a whole different body and it wouldn't matter...

You can cast shrink item and apport object on a corpse. I don't see anything that would prevent that. Unless you made the corpse cloth-like, there's no reason raise dead wouldn't work on it (just like it probably wouldn't work on a petrified creature turned to stone). It would work on a corpse of a creature that was polymorphed into a turtle or reduced or enlarged. They would still be their polymorhed shape or reduced or enlarged size when raised.

Raise dead doesn't fail because the body is treated as an object (for most cases). That FAQ never said that it also stops counting as a creature. Just like a you can have a weapon that counts as a light weapon for two-weapon fighting purposes or allows you to use Weapon Finesse as though it were a light weapon... but that doesn't make it a light weapon nor make in not count as a one-handed or whatever weapon. It's still what it is, it just counts as something for a specific purpose.

Quote:

If Raise Dead does work, would the dead body be resurrected as a 1/16th size person? Or does the Shrink Item spell end?

The body would be 4 size category smaller. The shrink object spell won't end (although the caster can end it with a command or them striking a solid surface would also do so. In the case of a creature I would also say getting struck hard enough would do so, so a damaging hit, falling damage, possibly even a bullrush would also end it.

Quote:

If the Shrink Item doesn't end, can I cast Permanency on the Shrink Item spell on my ally to have a permanent 1/16th size character?

I don't see why you couldn't. You would have a really good AC from size (so good for casters, maybe a sneak attack build). The spell doesn't go into ability score changes for size, so it's up to the GM whether to apply Strength and Dexterity decreases or increases, but likely you'd follow the bestiary rules for size changes. But whatever the case, your carrying capacity would be incredibly low (because smaller creatures have lower encumbrance limits).

Objects:

---------------------------------------------------- It's also debatable whether all the corpse's items shrink as well. While I might overlook it for game expediency purposes, if you extrapolate it, it becomes abusable if you let caster suddenly shrink multiple items by bundling them when the spell clearly works on one object. A door might include hinges, knobs, a knocker, a coat hook on the inside, etc. but that could all fall into the category of being part of the door. Once you start to include the Christmas wreathe on it or the coat that was hanging on the coat hook, you start to get into abuse territory. Similarly, casting it on a sofa should include the sofa cushions and no one likely cares if it includes the knitted, decorative slip cover or afghan over the back. That probably all falls under what we think of as a sofa. And certainly almost no one cares if all the stale potato chips, loose change, and condoms lost in the cushions goes along... or even all the flies inhabiting the sofa... but you have to draw the line somewhere. We likely allow a sack or backpack (including its contents) to be shrunk, but a corpse isn't necessarily its backpack and whatever you can suddenly start stuffing into every pocket and container and then put on the corpse to say that it's part of the corpse.

While the spell mentions a burning fire and its fuel, that might be in regards to how we view a campfire or bonfire as not only the flame itself, but the logs. A corpse or body is not necessarily the same as its clothes (though I probably would) or its backpack or the sack its holding or its weapon or armor. You could actually view the wording as not shrinking the fire and fuel... but actually shrinking a log or fuel that's on fire and the objects retains that state. I am not sure I'd let you just shrink object on a fire or cloud of gas for instance. While fire or cold or gas certainly aren't creatures, that doesn't necessarily mean they also count as objects for purposes of spells that affect objects. I wouldn't let someone apport orteleport objects on sunlight or oxygen that was touching their skin and teleport the sunlight into a vampire's coffin. It's not an 'object' just because it's not a creature.
-----------------------------------------------------------

I also wouldn't allow the corpse's items to permanently remain shrunk (magic items other than weapons and armor typically resize, but only typically and not all their objects would be magical, including equipment and gear). Assuming I allowed them as part of the 'corpse' and the one object that the spell can shrink (likely for expediency or ease of play purposes just to get them raised and back into the game), allowing a caster to basically shrink object on up to a hundred pieces of gear and objects in their backpack (as well as permanency them all with one spell at little cost would be atrociously unbalancing. So they'd be re-equipping themselves real fast or striking a hard surface and ending the spell themselves if not at an inconvenient time when they get struck by something else (and all they're left with is a bunch of really tiny clothing and equipment and weapons they'd restocked themselves with).

[Claxon]

Not going to present arguments but if I'm GMing and the question comes up the answer is:
Yes, Feeblemind will inflict you after death and reincarnation, or even a True Resurrection. Although, if you have access to True Resurrection you can probably heal it.
Same for Curse.

Why? Because I get to make the decision as a GM.

If you're a GM facing this question, I suggest you choose a ruling and stick to it, for anyone PC or NPC, that might be affected.

I personally prefer worlds where access to resurrection/reincarnation are very difficult in the first place, so I would probably say that in the course of action the players took to secure a resurrection or reincarnation the players also are able to cleanse/heal the affliction. But it's because I don't allow them as generic spells you can select, but rather story driven actions that I can tack additional effects onto.

[Diego Rossi]

Just to point it out:
- the lowest level spell that can remove Feeblemind is Heal, as 6th level spell.
- the lowest level spell that can remove Bestow Curse is Remove Curse, a specialized 3rd level spell that requires a CL check to work.

Reincarnate is a specialized 4th-level spell that does something noticeably different. Do you think it is normal for it to have the same effect as Heal and Remove curse?

[Ryze Kuja]

If Raise Dead, Shrink Item, and Apport Object work on a corpse, then that means that the corpse is treated as both a Dead Creature and an Object.

If the corpse can be treated as a Dead Creature, then that means Feeblemind may be cast upon a Living Creature and the Feeblemind would not end once that Living Creature becomes a Dead Creature. Likewise, Feeblemind could be cast upon a Dead Creature, although that seems like it might be a waste.

So, Feeblemind persists after death on that creature. It doesn't end because it's permanent, and the creature dying doesn't stop the spell from persisting.

Raise Dead, Resurrection, and True Resurrection would not remove the Feeblemind. The creature would be restored to the life but the Feeblemind effect would still be active on that creature.

[Kasoh]

Claxon wrote:

Not going to present arguments but if I'm GMing and the question comes up the answer is:

Yes, Feeblemind will inflict you after death and reincarnation, or even a True Resurrection. Although, if you have access to True Resurrection you can probably heal it.
Same for Curse.

Why? Because I get to make the decision as a GM.

If you're a GM facing this question, I suggest you choose a ruling and stick to it, for anyone PC or NPC, that might be affected.

I personally prefer worlds where access to resurrection/reincarnation are very difficult in the first place, so I would probably say that in the course of action the players took to secure a resurrection or reincarnation the players also are able to cleanse/heal the affliction. But it's because I don't allow them as generic spells you can select, but rather story driven actions that I can tack additional effects onto.

This, but the opposite ruling. Once you're dead and get rezzed, its a fresh start. Because you already died, no need to kick the player again. I also make raise dead widely available. Dead is just a status effect that you need to remove to continue playing.

[Claxon]

Kasoh wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Not going to present arguments but if I'm GMing and the question comes up the answer is:

Yes, Feeblemind will inflict you after death and reincarnation, or even a True Resurrection. Although, if you have access to True Resurrection you can probably heal it.
Same for Curse.

Why? Because I get to make the decision as a GM.

If you're a GM facing this question, I suggest you choose a ruling and stick to it, for anyone PC or NPC, that might be affected.

I personally prefer worlds where access to resurrection/reincarnation are very difficult in the first place, so I would probably say that in the course of action the players took to secure a resurrection or reincarnation the players also are able to cleanse/heal the affliction. But it's because I don't allow them as generic spells you can select, but rather story driven actions that I can tack additional effects onto.

This, but the opposite ruling. Once you're dead and get rezzed, its a fresh start. Because you already died, no need to kick the player again. I also make raise dead widely available. Dead is just a status effect that you need to remove to continue playing.

For what it's worth, I try very hard to avoid deaths in the first place. I will use Deus Ex Machina if need be. Basically PCs only die if the player wants the character to die. But they might be out of commission until they have access to Heal or some similar magic.