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What's the point? this is basically just gestalting the two parent classes with no drawbacks but a lot of extra paperwork.
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Best at what, exactly?
Casting spells? Probably the Arcanist... despite their difference in casting stats, Arcane Schools and Bloodline Arcana would buff all your spells... neither Arcane Schools or Bloodline Arcana specify that they only affect spells of that class... for example your Evocation School's Intense Spells would still add half your Wizard level to your Sorcerer half's Evocation spells, and your Draconic/Orc Bloodline Arcanas would apply to all your Wizard half's applicable spells. Halves. Lol. This is TRIstalt... so, both your Arcane School and Bloodline Arcana would apply to all your 9/9 Arcanist spells, your 9/9 Sorcerer spells, and your 9/9 Wizard spells... it's stupid. Lol.
Best at doing Rogue stuff? This is a fun one, because we have Alchemist/Investigator/Rogue versus Ranger/Rogue/Slayer... I love Slayers, but I would pick the Alchemist/Investigator/Rogue tristalt any day of the week.
Best martial combatant? We have options here, so it probably depends on your fighting style... Brawler/Fighter/Monk is still going to end up more Monk than Fighter, so if that's your thing maybe Brawler is what you think gives the best tristalt. Maybe somebody like pets or Wild Shape or Rage...
Honestly, the best tristalt combinations available within these rules are going to be the ones that can mesh well without the hybrid class to begin with. Things like Bloodrager and Skald are kind of out of the question because their parent classes don't work together without the special crap provided by their hybrids. Maybe some corner cases are available through crafty archetype selection, but overall you are stuck with only what the hybrid class allows to mix.
Anything mixed with Fighter is going to be okay at fighting... your Brawler/Fighter/Monk and Fighter/Gunslinger/Swashbuckler and Cleric/Fighter/Warpriest are all going to be capable of whooping wholesale @$$ all day long. Fighter is easy to mix with just about anything because it doesn't get in the way of anything like Rage denying concentration. Rogue is easy to mix with anything because it gets in the way of nothing. Ranger is the same way.
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Probably the Warpriest.
You get full Divine casting, the ability to buff yourself as a Swift action and a TON of feats. Seriously it's 18 bonus feats and Ferver on a Full-BAB Cleric, there's not much you can't do.
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warpriest as said can do so much with his fighter and cleric classes added.
an inquisitor (that i think should be paladin+cleric. same as you did magus for fighter+wizard) is not far behind and probably better at saves and attacks via bane, smite and judgment.
for max feats to build the best at his trade i think swashbuckler with his gunslinger and fighter combination (21 bonus feats beside level\race feats) should have more feats then he probably would ever need. (human tristalnt of this would net a total of 32 feats i think). beside the other class abilities that tend to amplify his weapon and armor abilities (fighter's training, deeds etc)
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For combat effectiveness, I agree that cleric//fighter//warpriest is probably one of the best options. Although fighter//magus*//wizard (sword binder) would also work quite well after 6th level (and Broad Study).
For spellcasting, I think oracle//shaman//witch might have the widest selection of spells. It would probably be best to take the seducer witch archetype so both oracle and witch spellcasting are based on Cha.
IMO, all arcanist//sorcerer//wizard really does is add more spell slots from the same spell list while keeping the "squishy wizard" chassis. Not really that exciting, other than adding some flexibility on prepared vs. spontaneous casting.
*- even though it's not explicitly a "hybrid class" from the Advanced Class Guide
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IMO, the inquisitor is probably closer to a cleric/ranger hybrid than a cleric/paladin.
Cleric//inquisitor//ranger would be pretty nice for stacking bane with Favored Enemy and the cleric buffs/healing.
Technically, bard (rogue/sorcerer), paladin (cleric/fighter), and ranger (druid/fighter) are the prototype hybrid classes in AD&D 2e/D&D 3.x/PF1; bard was the prototype prestige class in AD&D 1e (fighter/thief/druid).
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if were expanding the list a shifter should be druid+monk hybrid i think. the Monkzila is not that a bad combination ether, but i think a brawler with his monk+fighter can get to do nicer stuff, what with the brawler martial flexibility and free two weapon fighting, monk's free of requirements feats and ki abilities and the fighters feats and training.
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I'd argue inquisitor is more like a cleric/rogue.
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I'd argue inquisitor is more like a cleric/rogue.
This is probably accurate.
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For an Investigator tristalt, I think something like this could be interesting:
Grenadier Alchemist/
Psychic Detective Investigator/
Eldritch Scoundrel Rogue
You have 6/9 Alchemy, 6/9 prepared arcane casting, and 6/9 spontaneous psychic casting... all based on Intelligence. You have Alchemical Weapon, Studied Combat/Strike, lots of Discoveries/Talents, and some Sneak Attack... tons of fun possibilities. Due to Eldritch Scoundrel's armor proficiencies (or lack thereof), you would be stuck in Sunsilk Ceremonial Armor, but it could be worse.
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What's the point? this is basically just gestalting the two parent classes with no drawbacks but a lot of extra paperwork.
Dude, it's just a fun thought exercise.
Best at what, exactly? In general. If you need something more specific, basically, on average, which one would contribute the most to the group of PCs?
an inquisitor (that i think should be paladin+cleric. same as you did magus for fighter+wizard) is not far behind and probably better at saves and attacks via bane, smite and judgment.New rule, Inquisitor counts as a Hybrid of Paladin and Cleric.
So not many of the hybrid classes are going to being anything to the table in this. you are basically mixing 2 full classes with a diluted version of those classes already. So aside from additional spells per day and a few minor abilities here and there, the parent classes are going to already provide everything the hybrid class would provide.
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In some cases, though, the parent classes have no natural synergy... and, in fact, compete with the other parent class for both action ecomony and purpose. You are stuck supporting one of the parent classes at the expense of the other. Without the limited abilities to mix the two parent classes provided by the hybrid class, the two parent classes have no business being in the same tristalt combination. The Barbarian's Rage is extremely hard to mix with spellcasting outside of the limited abilities of the hybrid classes... and without the hybrid classes, most any of the combinations involving Barbarian and a spellcasting class will fail to be effective/fun/playable.
Some of the other combinations just make sense, though... like the Druid/Hunter/Ranger. Literally nothing changes in the way you have to design or play this character. You just have more spellcasting than the average Hunter/Ranger, higher BAB than your average Druid/Hunter, but overall you still do the exact same stuff [just better]. Your Alchemist/Investigator/Rogue and Ranger/Rogue/Slayer combinations both can be played without worrying about having to change your playing style to accommodate any of the three classes involved. Your Gunslinger/Fighter/Swashbuckler and Cleric/Fighter/Warpriest mixtures each play exactly as you would play any one of the classes individually.
The Brawler/Fighter/Monk has to conceed to the Monk's restrictions, but otherwise would play without changing one's playing style (assuming you were already choosing to play this combination because a Monk's playing style appeals to you).
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I'd argue inquisitor is more like a cleric/rogue.This is probably accurate.
Yeah my take has always been that the Inquisitor is the Divine-Rogue class . There's no perfect synergy here because it's not really a hybrid class, but I'd definitely say Ranger or Rogue over Paladin.
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I felt the whole judgemt~smite, 5th level adding bane~divine bound to weapon and detect alignment~detect evil were pointing to paladin. In what way is it a rogue? No talents, sneak attack (like the slayers) and disabiling traps.
To me it was like a black op paladin more then a divine rogue.
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I felt the whole judgemt~smite, 5th level adding bane~divine bound to weapon and detect alignment~detect evil were pointing to paladin. In what way is it a rogue? No talents, sneak attack (like the slayers) and disabiling traps.
To me it was like a black op paladin more then a divine rogue.
huge number of skills and skill points, d8 3/4 bab, bonuses to knowledge and intimidate compared to perception and disable device, general flavor of skulduggery, bane comparable to sneak attack, stalwart is evasion but for fort and will, etc.
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Druid/Ranger//Hunter
Specifically: Nature Fang/Ranger//Feral Hunter
Full BAB/Saves
Studied Target
Slayer Talents
Favored Enemy
Access to TWO (2) combat styles
Wildshape
Improved Summoning
Domain access (which can lead to a number of things)
Can get an Animal Companion and Familiar
And more!
That is what I would choose given the option. I'd toss in VMC Magus at that point, just because.
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huge number of skills and skill points, d8 3/4 bab, bonuses to knowledge and intimidate compared to perception and disable device, general flavor of skulduggery, bane comparable to sneak attack, stalwart is evasion but for fort and will, etc.I felt the whole judgemt~smite, 5th level adding bane~divine bound to weapon and detect alignment~detect evil were pointing to paladin. In what way is it a rogue? No talents, sneak attack (like the slayers) and disabiling traps.
To me it was like a black op paladin more then a divine rogue.
Yeah this.
To be clear, this is NOT a direct translation like the Warpriest or even the Magus. It's a bit like calling the Paladin a cross between Fighter and Cleric .
My thought was that combining the Paladin and Cleric into a class wouldn't give a skill-monkey. The Inquisitor is the only non nature-based divine class with 6+INT skills per level, and they have the whole "skulking in the shadows and being morally amiguous" thing that fitst thematically with Rogues. Having said that, I just looked at the divine classes and you could make an argument that they're a cross between a Cleric and a Ranger with their focus on monster tracking and identification .
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Hunter/Druid/Ranger
3 Animal Companions
9/6/4 level primal casting
Wildshape
Animal Aspects
Favored Enemy
Combat Styles
d10 HD
6 Skill Points per level
All good savesParty of 1.
It’s like Dar from “Beastmaster,” but even better!
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Which class shines the most at level 20 with these rules?
For level 20? Arcanist! I don't care that I have d6 HD, half BAB, and only one good save, or that I draw from the exact same spell list with every part - I have three full casting progressions from the strongest list in the game and can just spam 9th level spells all day long! A tristalt game at 210th level isn't fighting common threats, you're probably hopping across planes and hunting demon lords and stuff like that, and for that, spellcasting is what it's all about.
Shaman comes in at second place. Once again triple full casting (and you can easily grab almost any spell in the game), but keyed off three different ability scores.
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Alright, I guess discontinue the Inquisitor rule, and instead just use your best judgment for it if you wish to treat it like a Hybrid class.
I see what you did there ;)
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Which class shines the most at level 20 with these rules?For level 20? Arcanist! I don't care that I have d6 HD, half BAB, and only one good save, or that I draw from the exact same spell list with every part - I have three full casting progressions from the strongest list in the game and can just spam 9th level spells all day long!
Eh. I know the meta is that spells are everything, but I've never really agreed with it. Yes spells are strong, and yes being able to cast 9th pevel spells is a Huge draw, but having more of them isn't as impactful as having access to them.
Within the parameters of this excercise, the following Hybrid* classes have access to 9th level spells: Arcanist, Bloodrager, Hunter, Magus*, Shaman and Warpriest.
The Bloodrager, Hunter, Magus and Warpriest will be full-BAB. The Warpriest gets 28 feats to go with that . I'm not totally sure how working in Bloodrage and Rage together to be useful, but having a Bloodline and Rage Powers has to be good. I haven't really seen a Hunter played, but I imagine a wild-shaping Ranger with 3 animal companions and 9th level spells would be pretty good . The Magus gets Spell-Combat. I don't really think I need to explain why that' good in a gestalt game.
The Shaman is the only other one here who doesn't get full-BAB, but they also gets access to 3 versions of a 9th level caster . Having 3 separate spell lists is almost certainly going to be better than having 3 versions of the same list - even if the Arcanist list is hetter on it's own. They also get better BAB, more HP, more skills/level, 2 sets of hexes and a mystery-&-curse.
Now I'm not saying the Arcanist is bad, and I'm not even saying that it isn't potentially the winner. What I'm saying is that it isn't the winner simply by virtue of having 3 sets of 9th level spells.
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- @MrCharisma: You're right, I guess I've opened my post with what I almost always say in such situations: There is no universal "best", as it always depends on what you want and how the group and the campaign look like.
My experience with such high level play is admittedly extremely limited, but I just imagined something like this. Not only do you have 9th level spells en masse, you also have spell slots for all the quickened spells that you could want... and quite a lot more form your classes, as I'll note below.
But yeah, the hybrids with full casting are crazy powerful, and the others might as well not exist.
• Arcanist not only has three times full casting with the strongest spell list in the game, and multiple options to grab other list's spells, the additional stuff these classes get is also good, and a lot of it affects everything you do. Remember how everyone loves Exploiter Wizard? You don't even need it! You can have exploits, plus arcane schools (possible even two with School Savant Arcanist), arcane discoveries, and a bloodline (or two, it's not as if Crossblooded Sorcerer has much of a downside here). Not to mention HHH Pact Wizard's Great Power, Greater Expense ability that's just obscenely powerful at 15th+ level.
• Shaman could thrive off the raw power of (grand) hexes alone, and you shouldn't have any problems casting 9th level spells from the other classes despite them being based on different ability scores (+6 headband and +3 from age bonuses gained via Withering means you'd be fine with a starting 10). The spirit and mystery abilities are rather good, too, including their capstones, and even though Shaman spirits are mostly copied from Mysteries, you avoid overlap by simply selecting three (with wandering spirit) different ones.
• Magus benefits a lot form not being an actual hybrid class, which results in the three classes having very little overlap. Wizard casting is obviously good, the Broad Study arcana allows using Spell Combat with Wizard spells, and the Fighter part should keep the martial aspect relevant. HHH Pact Wizard probably makes it third best.
• Warpriest has access to one of the best spell lists, and the Warpriest casting with Fervor is basically quickened spells form a 2nd full casting class. You have more bonus feats that you can really make use of, so much that you could easily trade some out for e.g.
Child of Acavna and Amaznen (in case you e.g. want Monstrous Physique II and don't want to worship Baphomet). Full BAB + Weapon Training (from Fighter or MAT) + buff spells means your attack roll bonus will be crazy high.
• Bloodrager has mutually exclusive abilities, although the Rage Powers from Barb could be used to qualify for the ones from Primalist Bloodrager. The Sorc part grants access to the self-only polymorph spells, which are extremely potent with full BAB and Rage - how about a flying, pouncing Yig buffed with Strong Jaw (via Razmiran Priest)?
• Hunter is something I'm not sold on, because animal companions tend to fall off at mid levels, and we're talking about 20th level play. I see fairly little synergy between the three classes. The Druid list is also fairly weak, especially at higher spell levels.
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Honestly, out of all the possible combinations... I'd actually play the Druid/Ranger//Hunter before any of the rest. I am exceedingly biased towards Shamans, Witches, and Oracles for a number of reasons, but I'd still swing away from it for various other reasons. Wildshape alone, and the ability to tailor a Smite X alignment with the use of a single feat, nearly sells me even before the Full BAB, all good saves, 9th level spells, etc.
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… and the ability to tailor a Smite X alignment with the use of a single feat, …
Can you expand on that? You have my curiosity!
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Would anything change if the rules were that you had to have a parent class and two hybrids?
Sorcerer//Arcanist/Bloodrager
Fighter//Brawler/Warpriest
Wizard//Arcanist/Magus
Ranger//Hunter/Slayer
Etc...?
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Can you expand on that? You have my curiosity!
Sure. Planar Wild Shape. Let's you pick up the celestial or fiendish template when you wildshape, which comes with the Smite Good/Evil ability. There are a few tasty Wild Shape oriented feats that definitely expand the threat of a wild shaped druid, you know BESIDES the 'casting while shaped' ability of Natural Spell.
Would anything change if the rules were that you had to have a parent class and two hybrids?
Hmm, yeah. I'd have to give that one a bit more thought. There are several 'parent' classes that don't have more than one 'hybrid' they fit into, like the oracle or witch. Would certainly limit the available options.
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Thanks, DeathlessOne!
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if were expanding the list a shifter should be druid+monk hybrid i think.
Shifter is indeed build like a hybrid class, although it takes stuff from three classes (as the minor aspect stuff is copy-pasted from Hunter's Aspect). A Shifter-Druid-Monk tristalt would by very powerful, even though it would gain only very little from Shifter (although you might take Feyform Shifter for the transformation/enlargement, and then take e.g. Halcyon Druid). unMonk would obviously be better, but even cMonk would be a beast.
To be fair Druid/Hunter/Ranger has a ton of synergy.
Hunter provides animal companion + teamwork feats. Druid provides wild shape which is OP. Ranger provides favored enemy and shared favored enemies. Combine all three and you have a huge teamwork feat abuser.
They way I see it, Hunter only shares teamwork feats with their own companion (although the others can just take Outflank with normal feats). The Ranger's Hunter's Bond ability is actually anti-synergetic with Wild Shape, as you don't have move actions to spare when you can see an enemy thanks to WS granting pounce. You can share your favored enemy with Hunter's Friend... but your companions don't benefit from Instant Enemy.
Don't get me wrong, when I said "the hybrids with full casting are crazy powerful", that did include Hunter-Druid-Ranger. Wild Shape with full BAB and a +10/+10 against everything you can cast Instant Enemy on (which is a lot, as you can use both Ranger and Hunter spell slots!) is certainly powerful. If you know what you're mainly fighting, and thus can have Favored Enemy on your zoo, and don't need to spend a Swift Action on Instant Enemy (and can spend it on the smite from Planar Wild Shape instead, for instance), the martial side is scary strong. But the casting side is way weaker than any of the other tristalts with full casting, and since the point of evaluation was "which one would contribute the most to the group of PCs?", I have to deduct points for that.
Druid provides wild shape which is OP.
Remember what the comparison is. Wild Shape's main advantage is action cost, but we're talking about a level where a Quickened Monstrous Physique II isn't even the highest level spell slot a character has. And Deathsnatcher with six primary attacks, flight, and pounce, or Yig with ridiculously large damage dice on the attacks, can very much compete with what Wild Shape lets you turn into.
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@MrCharisma: You're right,
Point to me ;)
I guess I've opened my post with what I almost always say in such situations: There is no universal "best", as it always depends on what you want and how the group and the campaign look like.
Nah but seriously, that was a great post. I agree with basically everything there. I just wanted a bit more thought than "9th level spells", and you delivered.
After writing that list of Hybrid classes with 9th level spells it did make them look like the best options . There's definitely more synergy than just spells for the Arcanist though, and it really does look like a strong option. I'd almost certainly go Warpriest or Magus, but that's just coz I like to be on the front line.
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Juju Oracle, Gravewalker Witch, Bones Shaman = Ultimate Necromancer.
Oracle of Battle, White-haired Witch, Life Shaman = SmashNGrabUrFace McHealbot
Blood Arcanist, Cross-blooded Orc/Draconic Sorcerer, Evocation Admixture Wizard = NukeyNuke McMeltsFaces
Bladebound Magus, Mutagen Warrior Fighter, Exploiter Wizard = Dr. Jekyll/Mr. Hyde with a Black Blade, Vestigial Arm, Wish, and Dimensional Slide.
Eldritch Archer Magus, Archer Fighter, Divination Foresight Wizard = Shooty McTrickShots
Infiltrator Investigator, Gun Chemist Alchemist, Vanilla Unchained Rogue = StealthySpy McSapMaster
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I think people are sleeping on the Swashbuckler. hear me out.
Here are the rules for Panache/Grit
"Grit, luck, and panache represent three different means by which heroes can gain access to the same heroic pool, using it to accomplish fantastic feats. For characters with a mix of grit, luck, and panache, they pool the resources together into a combined pool. (Those who use panache and luck gain twice their Charisma bonus in their pool.) For feats, magic items, and other effects, a panache user can spend and gain luck points in place of grit or panache points, and vice versa."
So since we gain grit from one and panache from the other we would get double the pool.
Add to the mix all the extra feats from fighter.
There are a lot of great stuff that can be thrown in the mix.
Mysterious stranger for double dipping charisma
Desna shooting star style and flying blade
You can absolutely dualwield, definitely have the feat economy for it and even with precise strike (the only thing you lose from dualwielding) the only thing that you need to Precise strike is to choose not to attack with your second weapon, it doesn't say the hand needs to be empty.
you can use dodging panache to never be in melee range
You can start a full attack in melee, down the opponent in the middle of the full attack and still spend all the extra attacks as ranged never wasting a single one of them.
Swashbuckler initiative and Gunslinger initiative are basically the same for different weapons, except for the fact that the bonus to initiative is untyped therefore it stacks.
Loads of attack at any range, can probably race for highest possible initiative in the game, full-round attack at any range, Max charisma for starknife attack and damage and firearm bonus damage (through focused aim), a pool of panache/grit that is disgusting and encourages you to just spend very liberally from it, gain dares, still get the bonus feat from the fighter class, at the same time you can take those feats as swashbuckler and access to the ability to swap them out as you progress in the class as per the class bonus feat description.
What about the fighter? Lots of interesting options
Be a dragonheir Scion, grow wings, rain death from above.
Two-Weapon Warrior for better two weapon fighting, getting both a stab and a shot on attacks of opportunity and getting an attack of opportunity every time you get hit, there is an argument that you could do an opportune parry and reposte by both using your blade and your gun.
Mobile fighter to become absolutely impossible to pin down in melee.
I think it has a lot of potential and sounds like a lot of fun.
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So, I spent a little time putting together a progression for a Druid/Ranger//Hunter using archetypes to see what I could get out of it, and I've found that if you use the right combination, you end up with extremely little overlap. I was able to get it down to only two instances of Woodland Stride on the entire progression.
Druid = Nature Fang
Ranger = Hooded Champion, Infiltrator, and Skirmisher
Hunter = Feral Shifter
It might not have the 'best' of the 9th level spellcasting, but it has just about everything else you could ask for in a combination. Spellcasting (two lists, including the ranger spells you gave away with your archetype, thanks to Hunter), spell DC boosts, massive bonuses to hit, multiple fighting styles (and the feats/talents to spare to get them functional), ways to deal with traps, controlling the battle field, healing, summoning (and very good summoning at that), wildshape, PANACHE, etc, etc. You could opt for an animal companion through Druid or Ranger, since Nature Bond and Hunter's Bond are still present, two of them if you really want it, or go for one companion, a familiar (through a druid domain), optional sneak attack increases (Crocodile Domain), or various other options.
For me... that's nearly a perfect combination of abilities at my disposal and I turn my nose up to all the others, at least in my particular preferences of game play.