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Most elemental cantrips are on the Primal spell list. While it sounds like "Primal" means "primitive", a Primal Kineticist could simply harness raw elemental matter into its own hands, similar to how Arcane spellcasters can weave magic.
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Who ever said Primal is primitive? Never seen anyway say or imply that. The reason it doesn't fit is that primal is related to the worship of nature and direct control of the elements. Which is not the case with Kineticist.
They aren't taking elemental matter in their hand and controling it directly. They are taking control of a derivative product that just happens to have connections to those elements. Its why Aether, Wood, and Void are a thing in the first place those aren't "elements" in the same sense as the classic 4 elemental planes. Its also why there are Blightburners (radiation), Dark Elementalist (Sacrifice souls), Blighted Defiler (Suck the life/soul out of nearby life), Ioun Kineticist (nothing to do with elements but aeon stones).
The ethereal connection is all about the soul, which is Arcane and Occult.
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What he said ^, but we can continue this in the dedicated thread for that exact topic. I didn’t mean to derail this one.
I think they could manage to make it primal. 2E is a little looser with the flavor of the traditions. Oracle for instance can take divine power from a lot of different things that aren't gods.
aobst128 wrote: I think they could manage to make it primal. 2E is a little looser with the flavor of the traditions. Oracle for instance can take divine power from a lot of different things that aren't gods. That was the original lore of the Oracle, so PF2 changes to traditions didn't change anything. Oracles were always about the mystery of the universe and how the person in question interacted with those mysteries. The gods were a potential plot hook that players/GMs could use to explain the class in part or whole, if they wanted.
Temperans wrote: aobst128 wrote: I think they could manage to make it primal. 2E is a little looser with the flavor of the traditions. Oracle for instance can take divine power from a lot of different things that aren't gods. That was the original lore of the Oracle, so PF2 changes to traditions didn't change anything. Oracles were always about the mystery of the universe and how the person in question interacted with those mysteries. The gods were a potential plot hook that players/GMs could use to explain the class in part or whole, if they wanted. So you don't think kineticist could give primal the same treatment that oracle gives to divine?
I could see kineticist being linked to primal similar to how a primal sorcerer works. Just not through the use of magic or typical spells. Innate elemental power could also be linked to planar stuff and be divine but I don't think people would like that.
aobst128 wrote: Temperans wrote: aobst128 wrote: I think they could manage to make it primal. 2E is a little looser with the flavor of the traditions. Oracle for instance can take divine power from a lot of different things that aren't gods. That was the original lore of the Oracle, so PF2 changes to traditions didn't change anything. Oracles were always about the mystery of the universe and how the person in question interacted with those mysteries. The gods were a potential plot hook that players/GMs could use to explain the class in part or whole, if they wanted. So you don't think kineticist could give primal the same treatment that oracle gives to divine? No. Kineticist are purely accidental, just pure emotion + trauma + psychic powers (no inheritance, no worship, no training, no insight). The closest is Leshykineticist (because leshy) and Terrakineticist (What PF2 Geomancer wishes it could be). Both are archetypes, not the default of the what that class is.
Temperans wrote: aobst128 wrote: Temperans wrote: aobst128 wrote: I think they could manage to make it primal. 2E is a little looser with the flavor of the traditions. Oracle for instance can take divine power from a lot of different things that aren't gods. That was the original lore of the Oracle, so PF2 changes to traditions didn't change anything. Oracles were always about the mystery of the universe and how the person in question interacted with those mysteries. The gods were a potential plot hook that players/GMs could use to explain the class in part or whole, if they wanted. So you don't think kineticist could give primal the same treatment that oracle gives to divine? No. Kineticist are purely accidental, just pure emotion + trauma + psychic powers (no inheritance, no worship, no training, no insight). The closest is Leshykineticist (because leshy) and Terrakineticist (What PF2 Geomancer wishes it could be). It is still magic though right? Is there such a thing as magic without tradition or source?
aobst128 wrote: Temperans wrote: aobst128 wrote: Temperans wrote: aobst128 wrote: I think they could manage to make it primal. 2E is a little looser with the flavor of the traditions. Oracle for instance can take divine power from a lot of different things that aren't gods. That was the original lore of the Oracle, so PF2 changes to traditions didn't change anything. Oracles were always about the mystery of the universe and how the person in question interacted with those mysteries. The gods were a potential plot hook that players/GMs could use to explain the class in part or whole, if they wanted. So you don't think kineticist could give primal the same treatment that oracle gives to divine? No. Kineticist are purely accidental, just pure emotion + trauma + psychic powers (no inheritance, no worship, no training, no insight). The closest is Leshykineticist (because leshy) and Terrakineticist (What PF2 Geomancer wishes it could be). It is still magic though right? Is there such a thing as magic without tradition or source? Like AnimatedPaper stated this belongs in the other thread. But here you go Magical
Temperans wrote: aobst128 wrote: Temperans wrote: aobst128 wrote: Temperans wrote: aobst128 wrote: I think they could manage to make it primal. 2E is a little looser with the flavor of the traditions. Oracle for instance can take divine power from a lot of different things that aren't gods. That was the original lore of the Oracle, so PF2 changes to traditions didn't change anything. Oracles were always about the mystery of the universe and how the person in question interacted with those mysteries. The gods were a potential plot hook that players/GMs could use to explain the class in part or whole, if they wanted. So you don't think kineticist could give primal the same treatment that oracle gives to divine? No. Kineticist are purely accidental, just pure emotion + trauma + psychic powers (no inheritance, no worship, no training, no insight). The closest is Leshykineticist (because leshy) and Terrakineticist (What PF2 Geomancer wishes it could be). It is still magic though right? Is there such a thing as magic without tradition or source? Like AnimatedPaper stated this belongs in the other thread. But here you go Magical That answers that. I guess it's only going to matter if they would make the kineticist a caster. The thaumaturge answers the magical non caster so it's possible.
What's the view on making blasts unarmed attacks? It would be weird but might be what works.
My prefered method is that its unique, so a fighter doesn't become better at it than Kineticist.
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Legendary Kineticists take that approach if I remember right.
It’s an idea. I personally dislike it but it works for a lot of people. Temperens for one, I think.
Edit: to explicate, I think unarmed attacks treads way too close to Houses of Perfection, which should be firmly a monk thing. People once got very excited by Jalemeray monks that had elemental, kineticist-like attacks. Which is cool, but I want both kineticist a AND HoP monks, and I want these to be different things even if they blur. And using unarmed attacks would make them harder to differentiate imo.
It would depend on how much anti poaching they would be willing to do. Archetype could max out with what ancestries get get with ranged unarmed attacks. 1d4 20 ft range. I think it could work as long as kineticists have the resources to be better despite pesky fighter poaching.
...
That type of balancing is exactly why they should not be unarmed strikes. kinetic blasts should not be balanced as a 1d4 20ft ranged thing. Its like trying to for a square peg in a round hole, it just does not work.
Kinetic blasts xd6+Con+y 30ft ranged thing, baring infusions that can make them 100+ ft long or boost damage further (because fire). The reason why fighter poaching is a concern is that they get Legendary in all martial and unarmed strikes. Which they should never be legendary in kinetic blasts.
Nerfing the damage and range doesn't fix the issue just makes all the non-fighters multiclassing even worse.
Temperans wrote: ...
That type of balancing is exactly why they should not be unarmed strikes. kinetic blasts should not be balanced as a 1d4 20ft ranged thing. Its like trying to for a square peg in a round hole, it just does not work.
Kinetic blasts xd6+Con+y 30ft ranged thing, baring infusions that can make them 100+ ft long or boost damage further (because fire). The reason why fighter poaching is a concern is that they get Legendary in all martial and unarmed strikes. Which they should never be legendary in kinetic blasts.
Nerfing the damage and range doesn't fix the issue just makes all the non-fighters multiclassing even worse.
Ranged unarmed strikes are a rarity. It would be a means to get access to them aside from specific ancestry or being a monk or summoner. There would still be a reason to archetype. The archetype has to be worse in some way. My example is just an idea. Plus, further archetyping could improve on kinetic blast. It just wouldn't match what the kineticist does.
I am saying that its a bad idea to do it "just because" and even more a bad idea to do it "because I want more of this type of attack". Kinetic blasts are no just something for a person to get ranged unarmed strikes easily.
Its like asking for Panache to be available for non agile/finesse weapons because you want a Greatsword fighter to have access to it. That should never be the motivation for a class mechanic.
Just an example of a reason someone would take the archetype. Not the only one. I think it can work as unarmed strikes. Better than casting anyways. An entirely new thing might be the solution you're looking for. Any ideas?
At will attacks tied to a system like alchemical bombs that don't deal with hand wraps or runes maybe. Or saves vs class dc instead of spell dc. I think I'd prefer the saves instead of introducing a new system of attacking. Just for the sake of keeping things in the same bag as the rest of the system.
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Temperans wrote: No. Kineticist are purely accidental, just pure emotion + trauma + psychic powers (no inheritance, no worship, no training, no insight). The closest is Leshykineticist (because leshy) and Terrakineticist (What PF2 Geomancer wishes it could be). Both are archetypes, not the default of the what that class is. Do you need to make it accidental? You can scrap the class's origin and make it into something similar to Avatar: The Last Airbender if you want ;)
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Sure, but that’s a different story that you’re telling with the class than what they originally wrote. Not wrong, but different.
Like I mentioned in the other thread, the way the class was presented in OA and the way many, if not most, RP’d using the class were not overlapping.
For that part, I’d rather that be an expansion of the monk class and the HoP associated archetypes, leaving the kineticist to explore different thematics. Or that this would be an available option, but the horror/Carrie vibe ALSO be a base available option.
There’s certainly mechanical room for both Avatar and Carrie to be coming from the same class, but if we had to choose one direction, I’d prefer horror over martial arts.
Yeah the monk already has the whole elemental martial arts stuff.
Ideally, I would love both options - to have a more cantrip like option, and to be able to go for a more martial approach. I think for things like infusions that make a wall/explosion/etc a more spell like approach works, but regular old blasting a single target I could see martial (though a big part of me feels that others want unarmed for the likely higher attack bonus).
It would also make sense if we could get both options, at least if we're comparing to 1e. OG kineticist could make unarmed strikes, pseudo conjure a light weapon or whip, all sorts of stuff.
We might get some precedence with the thaumaturge if the wand implement ends up working like the playtest. Basically a cantrip that works off class DC.
Who said I want Avatar? Give me my psychics and horror movie characters. Avatar is literally one franchise, compared to the countless other characters that can be made using Kineticist. So why the heck should Kineticist be tied down to avatar and martial arts? Why should the lore of the class be ignored for a franchise that is not even connected to Paizo?
Yeah, kineticist could spend feats and class archetypes to mix element with unarmed strikes. But kinetic blasts are not unarmed strikes, kinetic blade is not unarmed strikes (even if you envision them as gloves), and kinetic whip is not a ranged unarmed strike. The whole ranged unarmed strike is something for the monk if Paizo wants to give them that, not kineticists.
As I stated it is much easier to have it be its own thing that way Paizo can balance it accordingly. No chance of it getting problems due to Fighter proficiency, no chance of it getting problems due to unarmed strike, no chance of it getting issues due to spell casting. Plus, the ability to add options that are specifically for kinetic blasts without having to worry about it affecting other things. Ex: The kineticist's diadems can be easily transferred as the method to increase kinetic blast damage for ranged blasts, while keeping the balance for melee blasts.
There's a cost to things being too isolated as well. The summoner comes to mind. Your eidolon can only deal with the classes internal mechanics and can't benefit from any sort of archetyping. I prefer things to fit into existing systems but I wouldn't be opposed to it being its own thing. Thaumaturge looks like it's gonna be pretty unique and that's what I've been most excited for so there's that.
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As a side note on the wand thaumaturge,
"No, I am in no means a caster in any shape or form"
*Shoots lightning.
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Avatar is the easiest way to have most potential players enthusiastic about the Kineticist. I would be wary of making the class completely separate from it.
I wonder whether Kineticist and kinetic knight should be two separate classes. Mostly because I can’t immediately think of what class could be paired with a Kineticist and have it not feel super forced
I guess it depends on what book it comes with? If you subscribe to them being primal then maybe shaman but they still don’t seem to fit together. Someone in my gaming group suggested that they thought it might for part of a planar book?
They might well change the lore on where the power is drawn from anyway. I don’t recall it being massively clear from the class blurbs . Perhaps it was in the main book of occult adventures rather than what appears on nethys etc
Kinetic Knight should work great as a Class archetype. Replace some of the free infusions with mandatory Kinetic Blade and Whip, change the armor proficiency, change the Elemental defense to give more buff to armor wearing.
Then add some exclusive kinetic knight feats that are thematic. Ex: The bladed dash ability (1 action flourish, teleport up to your speed, make a strike).
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JiCi wrote: Most elemental cantrips are on the Primal spell list. While it sounds like "Primal" means "primitive", a Primal Kineticist could simply harness raw elemental matter into its own hands, similar to how Arcane spellcasters can weave magic. Hmm...
The Traditions concept really enriched this iteration of the game. One of my favorite innovations. So, what if:
Divine + Occult = Monk
Arcane + Primal = Kineticist
Just throwing out an idea...
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That's a good idea, making kinetic knight (or whatever we would call the martial version of kineticist) a class archetype. I feel like with the precedent 2e has set it would be really hard to have the base class be good at both spells and melee.
I mean, melee spell attacks are a thing. So as long as kinetic blasts can be melee spell attacks (kinetic strike?), and AoO is addressed, you’re golden. Where you’d get into trouble is if you expect a kinetic blade to use your normal weapon proficiency. But at that point what you’re really after is a mindblade weapon summoning mechanic, and THAT might require an entirely new class, or at least a class path, to get balanced properly.
Weren't they doing a psychic blade thing for the psychic?
Nah regular and kinetic blasts should have the same proficiency which is why kinetic knight works as a class archetype. If you treat the blast as being solely a spell yeah you will have problems. But realistically it should be treat as a spell only in so much as you are casting a weapon to make a strike, meaning that mechanically it should be treated like a unique weapon type.
As far as provoking goes, you can just say that kinetic blade doesn't provoke AoO. Also if regular kineticist requires burn to use kinetic blade, then kinetic knight as a class archetype can modify it such that it doesn't.
Between kinetic blade not being subject of AoO, being melee only, and Kinetic Knight offering a way to do it without harming yourself, that should be more than enough compensation for it being able to get multiple strike a round no?
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I think something getting glossed over here is that the Psychic went headfirst into the Carrie/Eleven/Legion style occultic magician with the "hurt yourself for focus points. You have a nose bleed from too much strain" stuff. Thus leaving the Avatar/Hero Aca/other X-Men style elementalist user an unexplored field in class design, and most people's understanding of the Kineticist fills that unexplored gap. I really hope it's the next playtest announced at this upcoming PaizoCon, but I'm tempering expectations for it to be something else coming up next
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nick1wasd wrote: I think something getting glossed over here is that the Psychic went headfirst into the Carrie/Eleven/Legion style occultic magician with the "hurt yourself for focus points. You have a nose bleed from too much strain" stuff. Is a single Feat really going “headfirst” into that theme?
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No, that was *why* I was disappointed Unleash and Amps didn’t work out. If they had, it would not be very many steps to the kineticist I’d like to see. Take out spell slots to pump up Amps and Unleash, and I’d be happy.
As for leaving Avatar style unexplored…I’m just really confused by that statement. The monk has been doing that for years now. That’s where some of the earliest calls for making kinetic blast an unarmed strike came from (specifically the wild winds stance iirc). That’s not to say we couldn’t use another class in that vein; plenty of room there for more stories and for stuff that wouldn’t quite fit on a monk frame, like expanding ancestry feats that also give ranged elemental unarmed strikes. Hopefully the impossible lands book will give us at least a few more, given houses of perfection. Some of the abilities we saw on Ruby Phoenix would be cool to see.
Again, I’m not suggesting this as an alternate to the kineticist; more using what is already in game and expanding on that to double down on a thematic space already being explored.
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keftiu wrote: nick1wasd wrote: I think something getting glossed over here is that the Psychic went headfirst into the Carrie/Eleven/Legion style occultic magician with the "hurt yourself for focus points. You have a nose bleed from too much strain" stuff. Is a single Feat really going “headfirst” into that theme? In fairness, I think there were two feats :p.
But the framework of “taking a penalty to increase your spell’s power”, and the parallel to that and burn, was what really got me excited.
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AnimatedPaper wrote: The monk has been doing that for years now. I don't really think I agree. The monk has a few token elemental abilities, but having a stance that lets you deal fire damage when you punch someone isn't really doing much to invest in that kind of design space outside the most token way. It's sort of at the same level as "everyone has scaling cantrips so kineticists aren't necessary" argument.
... That said, I'm not sure why people are creating this big binary either. The PF1 kineticist was broad enough conceptually to allow for a lot of potential build and thematic options, so I don't understand why everyone is acting like a hypothetical PF2 kineticist must be designed in such a way as to lean into one theme and be built to exclude other concepts.
There's no reason to turn it into some binary thing. We don't gain anything by leaving someone else out. It just feels like kind of an unnecessary avenue of discussion.
Squiggit wrote: AnimatedPaper wrote: The monk has been doing that for years now. It's sort of at the same level as "everyone has scaling cantrips so kineticists aren't necessary" argument. I agree, which I why I didn’t make that argument. I was responding to the comment that the theme was completely unexplored.
I also agree that the flaming ember stance isn’t enough, which is why I referred to the one that specifically gave an elemental ranged strike (and more obliquely to the ancestry feats/options that do the same).
Sorry if this comes off as defensive, but given the effort I put into to not sounding like people are wrong to want to see this in game, you putting words in my mouth that are the exact opposite of what I e been saying kind of pisses me off.
keftiu wrote: For what it’s worth, I love Monks… but their elemental options aren’t enough for what I would want from a Kineticist. Yeah that’s totally fair. Like I said, I’m hoping impossible lands gives some of the options we saw on the HoP monks in Ruby Phoenix, which I recall you specifically said WERE the kinds of things you’d like to see a kineticist do.
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For what it’s worth, I love Monks… but their elemental options aren’t enough for what I would want from a Kineticist.
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Time traveling posts. How do you aquire this power?
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Exactly Squiggit. The best case for kineticist is that you can make pretty much any character from horror movie to wuxia energy blades. But I keep seeing people trying to make it into a spellcaster or into just an AtLA class.
That's why I hate the idea of "Psychic has some self damage stuff so Kineticist can just be martial arts". No that's not the point of the class, so why shod it be reduced to just that? Psychic goes down the spellcaster with psychic abilities. Kineticist goes down the person with magical and supernatural abilities.
No one will ever ever tell me that Lucy is closer to a Psychic than an Aether Air Kineticist with Many Throw and a homebrew racial "viral blast".
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Sorry, you're right, I could have phrased that a lot better to not come across so aggressively. The second part of my post was meant to be addressed more broadly and I could have put it a lot better. I apologize.
What I just mean is that a lot of this conversation seems to have shifted toward an either-or approach to the class, when I just don't think that's necessary.
aobst128 wrote: Time traveling posts. How do you aquire this power? Bad internet, or wait for the moment Paizo servers start acting weird.
aobst128 wrote: Time traveling posts. How do you aquire this power? The incandescent light of my annoyance caused Time herself to blink.
And I apologize as well, Squiggit. I do agree with the main thrust of your post, which was part of why I was annoyed to cast as disagreeing.
To be clear (since I can’t recall which thread I said this before in), I do think the class is broad enough to fit both of those themes, and more themes beyond that, into a single mechanical framework. If they do only pick one, I know which one I want to see them put forward, but ideally it would cover at least both, plus possibly an ability to opt into bound casting to pick up elemental spell slots, as options to play a “Fire Mage” or “Cryo Mage” are somewhat lacking. That might stretch things past the breaking point though.
Edit: in case that last sentence seems weird, I am down as wanting the kineticist to have caster proficiencies, so under that chassis my suggestion is less absurd than a kineticist built with martial proficiencies. And also “opt in” is probably the most important part of that sentence.
AnimatedPaper wrote: aobst128 wrote: Time traveling posts. How do you aquire this power? The incandescent light of my annoyance caused Time herself to blink.
And I apologize as well, Squiggit. I do agree with the main thrust of your post, which was part of why I was annoyed to cast as disagreeing.
To be clear (since I can’t recall which thread I said this before in), I do think the class is broad enough to fit both of those themes, and more themes beyond that, into a single mechanical framework. If they do only pick one, I know which one I want to see them put forward, but ideally it would cover at least both, plus possibly an ability to opt into bound casting to pick up elemental spell slots, as options to play a “Fire Mage” or “Cryo Mage” are somewhat lacking. That might stretch things past the breaking point though.
Edit: in case that last sentence seems weird, I am down as wanting the kineticist to have caster proficiencies, so under that chassis my suggestion is less absurd than a kineticist built with martial proficiencies. And also “opt in” is probably the most important part of that sentence. It wouldn't be strange for Kineticists to have a feat that gave then the ability to cast a few spells as if they were utility talents. After all that is what Kinetic Invocation feat used to do. But even then it was not cast from a spell slot, so yeah Kineticists should not be getting spell slots.
Honestly if they made it so Kineticist abilities all scaled based on "Kinetic Blast" proficiency the issue would be solved. Paizo wouldn't have to deal with Kineticist being good with weapons or spells. They just need to make sure that Kinetic blast can be used to counter spell and that their abilities can be counterspelled.
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