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I hadn't thought about goblins as autistic representation before now and it fits but I feel bad about it. Lol. Since their aesthetics and mannerisms are played for comedic effect for the most part. I feel like that's the wrong message.
I... wasn't saying that?
I mean, I don't think that goblins really do fit autism. I was just using them as a really clear case where a non-human ancestry would, if human, be considered notably neurodivergent, and how peopel could use that to express various aspects of themselves.
Mostly, I think that the bit that my kid likes about goblins is the ability to cut loose and be hyper and semi-feral with little to no social filter. That's not really autism-specific. Still, that's the sort of space you could easily fit such things in... and with the number fo ancestries they have out there it's possible that they've done that already a time or two and we just haven't noticed.
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It is definitely a touchy subject. But I would much rather that we discuss it openly and respectfully even if it does make people on both sides a bit uncomfortable at times as we get things wrong and have to make adjustments in our thinking.
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It is definitely a touchy subject. But I would much rather that we discuss it openly and respectfully even if it does make people on both sides a bit uncomfortable at times as we get things wrong and have to make adjustments in our thinking.
...or even more uncomfortable, as people begin to disagree on where those "have to make adjustments" lines are.
I agree. discussing these things openly and respectfully is important and worthwhile... and also potentially very messy.
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Do we have any Iconics with mental disabilities though? Any who are openly Autistic, or suffer with PTSD or Depression? ADHD? Schizophrenia? Anything?
Aren't all adventurers crazy on some level? :P
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Some things just don't have good game solutions. My grandmother had really bad dementia. She forgot my grandfather died every day for 6 months. She woke up each day and called the hospital to see how he was and find out again he had died, then called my mother crying again thinking he just died. I don't see a good game solution for that.
There's always going to be a limited number of iconics if there tied to classes. But diversifying pregens would not have the same limitation. And having more diversifying pregens in an organized play setting where you don't know who will show up at the table could be a big help.
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Aren't all adventurers crazy on some level? :PDo we have any Iconics with mental disabilities though? Any who are openly Autistic, or suffer with PTSD or Depression? ADHD? Schizophrenia? Anything?
Have you seen a Shirren try to order a pizza soo many toppings to choose from... I dragged that one out in RP as a distraction once.
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Something that should have been mentioned at the beginning of this thread is that hearing aids do nothing at all for people who are completely unable to hear -- they just help people with very poor hearing. Applied to vision, the equivalent question would be "Why do glasses and contact lenses exist when we have Lasik surgery?" As a person who wears glasses, my answer would be that I prefer the slight inconvenience of wearing glasses to do tasks such as driving (and, in the past, reading -- although this seems to be less necessary as the years go by) to the small but very real risk of permanent blindness from surgery or contact lenses. And, of course, many people who might be willing to risk such surgery cannot afford to do so.
In summary: Having a choice of solutions to various handicaps and physical limitations is a good thing. Not everyone will go for the total solution even if it becomes cheap and safe enough that most people would be willing to go for it.
after all, no iconic has prosthetic limbs or paraplegia yet, but we can see clear inclusivity in the item listDroven, the iconic Inventor, does.
!!!
Scratch that, I keep forgetting the Inventor class exists even though I just helped my player with a character concept that was "fairy biker riding a automaton motorbike" and that extends to its iconic. I remember Whirp well enough when I picture what a construct companion looks like though...
__
As an aside, I challenge the notion that adding more representation through iconics necessarily requires many new classes. Foe example it's not like trans autistic people don't exist. If we were to learn that Merisiel canonicaly has ADHD I would not bat an eye. After all, the goal is diversity of representation, not checking off one box per character.
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I notice that Paizo... mostly hasn't put labels on things. Like, again, Mios. Mios goes by "they", and their gender simply isn't discussed past that point. That's fair. It's not like the "he" and "she" iconics have their genders discussed either. I don't know all of the literature on the topic, but I don't get the impression that anyone specifically outright said "Merisiel is a lesbian". It's just that she happens to both be female and have a wife. So if she is what we would call ADHD? Well, maybe she is. They're not going to put that label on her one way or the other.
...and if you go looking for "people who sort of think like I think" I suspect that in a lot of cases you'll be able to find them - it just won't necessarily be called out specifically.
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I notice that Paizo... mostly hasn't put labels on things. Like, again, Mios. Mios goes by "they", and their gender simply isn't discussed past that point. That's fair. It's not like the "he" and "she" iconics have their genders discussed either. I don't know all of the literature on the topic, but I don't get the impression that anyone specifically outright said "Merisiel is a lesbian". It's just that she happens to both be female and have a wife. So if she is what we would call ADHD? Well, maybe she is. They're not going to put that label on her one way or the other.
Paizo has definitely outright said "Mios is non-binary" a few times, and they haven't been shy about other queer labels.
I notice that Paizo... mostly hasn't put labels on things. Like, again, Mios. Mios goes by "they", and their gender simply isn't discussed past that point. That's fair. It's not like the "he" and "she" iconics have their genders discussed either. I don't know all of the literature on the topic, but I don't get the impression that anyone specifically outright said "Merisiel is a lesbian". It's just that she happens to both be female and have a wife. So if she is what we would call ADHD? Well, maybe she is. They're not going to put that label on her one way or the other.Paizo has definitely outright said "Mios is non-binary" a few times, and they haven't been shy about other queer labels.
Ah. Good to know.
I mean, it was pretty clear regardless, but good to know that they do outright declare such things.
*mentally adjusts*
Dr Stephen Shore, an autism advocate who is on the spectrum, said,"If you've met one person with autism, you've met one person with autism."
That is very true.
It might be useful to remember that "representation" is never equal to "a better stereotype". And that "inclusion" is not the same as "representation".
But let's not take it too far either.
I could also say that meeting one Transgender person means that I have met one transgender person. Or meeting one amputee means that I have met one amputee.
Being unable to represent absolutely every case doesn't mean that we shouldn't make any attempt at all.
Pretty much everything has been said: technology is sometimes cheaper than magic, and pro-technology characters may favor this over actual restoration. It's like how in Eberron, it is better to use vehicles than teleportation.
A Sterling Dynamo with a prosthetic arm... might want to kill that good-hearted cleric who cast Regeneration to get his real arm back, after all the resources he poured into the prosthetic ^^; That would be a clever way to disarm such a character though ;)
On a sidenote, a prosthetic leg or arm is far less jarring for a character, given how steampunk settings popularized the idea. The same applies to eyes and ears. Imagine a blind character with a special pair of glasses that allows them to see. They have been wearing it for years, so they became dependant to it, similar to how someone would prefer to wear glasses over contacts or laser surgery.
One last thing is whether or not Cure Blindness/Deafness can cure someone with natural sensory loss. You cannot bring back a dead person who died from old age, so... maybe you cannot cure a blind or deaf person which became as such due to an accelerated condition.
I like the comparison to glasses in universe. Hearing aids exist for the same reason as glasses. Some magitech reason is a good enough explanation.
Here's a side-question: does Restore Senses cure short or near-sightedness? What about deteriorating hearing loss due to constant loud noises?
I mean, would these count as "non-magical wounds" for the purpose of this spell? What about Regenerate? Would that spell restore eyes to their original "shapes" before their deteriorated?
Paizo's Golarion has been a kitchen sink setting since the beginning. All this is just more of it.
Have you seen a Shirren try to order a pizza soo many toppings to choose from... I dragged that one out in RP as a distraction once.
lol
Editor
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Representation and inclusion. Not an easy thing to do and get right.
We have Iconics that represent several different sexual orientations.
We have Iconics with physical disabilities - Alahazra who is mostly blind due to the Oracle curse, and Droven who has a prosthetic arm.
Do we have any Iconics with mental disabilities though? Any who are openly Autistic, or suffer with PTSD or Depression? ADHD? Schizophrenia? Anything?
Or is that still too much of a hot topic to try and get representation and inclusion for?
Kyyduh the evolutionist iconic in Starfinder has ADHD.
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Paizo's Golarion has been a kitchen sink setting since the beginning. All this is just more of it.
That's true.
However, the main issue is that players are often using these options "just for show", without thinking of actual gameplay influences.
You can play a deaf, blind or mute character, but... don't expect to always receive bonus feats and/or items to compensate. The same applies to wheelchairs. Sure, you can start with one, but don't go complaining if you lose it. I mean, a rust monster can break it, a spell can destroy it after a failed save... and if captured, I doubt you'll keep it.
One example on these boards was me asking if the iconic precog in Starfinder, which suffers from chronic fatigue, would lead to getting drawbacks. Other people raged at me, because they argued about how it's "just for show". I'm sorry, but if a player decides to play a character who can get extremely tired without notice, they're gonna roll a die every hour and suffer the fatigue or exhausted condition if they fail.
They also argued that I shouldn't have an enemy NPC disarming a PC of their heirloom weapon, which they built their backstory around, so yeah... don't grow attach to your character's items either.
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Unlike real life, representing disabilities in any form or variety in-game shouldn't result in a character that is poorly balanced and not fun to play.
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Personally, I wouldn't require checks against chronic fatigue, provided the character had their medications available.
I would strongly suggest that everyone watch this LegalKimchi video on representation and whether or not it matters.
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I think it’s less about seeing something wrong in any group and more wanting to take a character flaw without any penalties. For example wanting to play a character missing a hand yet also asking the DM to start with a prosthetic hand at first level free of charge and suffer no penalty at the table.
Which can be unfair for the other members of the group. I get missing the hand is great yo the backstory neither should the flaws of missing a hand be ignored either.
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Kyyduh the evolutionist iconic in Starfinder has ADHD.
That is cool. I didn't think to check the Starfinder iconics.
In a completely unrelated note[/sarcasm] any plans for Bleachling Gnome heritage?
Because if people do want to play someone with mechanical effects for their choices, that should also be an option.
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Now, if I was running a table with a player who wanted to play some form of "disabled with prosthetic", I'd want to talk with them about starting money. A basic prosthesis is going to run 5sp, after all. for most starting characters, the money just isn't that tight. They might find it satisfying to have that initial prosthetic be formally paid for out of their official starting budget under the rules and everything. On the other hand, I wouldn't let those 5sp be the difference between "you get the weapon and armor and whatnot that you really want" and "you don't" unless the player was themselves dedicated to the bit.
Personally, I wouldn't require checks against chronic fatigue, provided the character had their medications available.My CFS/Long Covid support group would really like to know what medications that would be.
It's called machikahandwavium. It's a natural remedy.
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Basically, you're saying "if you want 'missing hand' to be part of your background, then it's going to suck to be you." That's... kind of lousy, you know?
No it's not. As long as people are forewarned and everyone is on the same page regarding expectations, then this is merely a difference in play style preference.
Or do you think your own playstyle preferences superior to that of others?
Edit: I find many of the followup responses to the matter rather disconcerting to say the least. Both methods of play are fine. None of it is "icky" or "gross." You all are not the gatekeepers of Pathfinder. People are welcome to play how they want to play.
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So people with prosthetics and wheelchairs aren’t allowed to play Pathfinder?
Don't be silly. You very well know they are.
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The important part is what the preference of the player making this choice is. As it stands in the current mechanics, a prosthetic isn't worse than a regular body part when it comes to gameplay. If someone wants it to be worse, that's up to them but it shouldn't be enforced unnecessarily.Basically, you're saying "if you want 'missing hand' to be part of your background, then it's going to suck to be you." That's... kind of lousy, you know?No it's not. As long as people are forewarned and everyone is on the same page regarding expectations, then this is merely a difference in play style preference.
Or do you think your own playstyle preferences superior to that of others?
Last I checked, with the exception of wheelchairs, the rules left a lot to be said about penalties and assistive devices; effectively leaving it up to table peragotive how it should be handled.
How do you handle a situation in which the hero does not have their wheelchair or prosthetic hand? Do you allow them to Stride about and dual wield? If not, then how is that fair? It's the same ridiculous logic.
Just have a conversation at your table. A player should not declare, "I'm blind, but really better than a sighted person" any more than the GM should say "Gotcha! You're blind and so you are useless half way through the first encounter."
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Last I checked, with the exception of wheelchairs, the rules left a lot to be said about penalties; effectively leaving it up to table peragotive.
Yes. Which is why it is so jarring to have someone say that the request to play a character with a disability without enforced penalties is unfair.
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Cleaned up a bunch of flags. Please keep the conversation CIVIL.