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Any level 3 cleric can cure deafness, so it doesn't seem like there would be any need for them. As they say, necessity is the mother of invention.
Ya, I meant to put it in the Second Edition forum. Can someone move it?
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Because deaf people exist, and just like IRL, there’s preferences and disagreements about the best way to approach their condition. Not everyone wants to be “cured” of their disabilities - I know I look very askew at anyone who uses that language around autism, for instance.
EDIT: How can a level 3 Cleric do that, exactly? Restore Senses explicitly states that it only counteracts magical deafness, not anything from a natural condition or mundane injury.
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Because deaf people exist, and just like IRL, there’s preferences and disagreements about the best way to approach their condition. Not everyone wants to be “cured” of their disabilities - I know I look very askew at anyone who uses that language around autism, for instance.
EDIT: How can a level 3 Cleric do that, exactly? Restore Senses explicitly states that it only counteracts magical deafness, not anything from a natural condition or mundane injury.
/thread
Also wondering where the idea of Restore Senses curing natural deafness is coming from.
Possibly it's just them mixing up editions. Remove Blindness/Deafness cured all kinds of, well blindness and deafness in PF1E, but that language was changed in 2E to specifically ignore non-magical forms of vision and hearing loss.
I'm glad the language was changed. It always felt odd thinking up a blind character in 1E because I could always imagine the echoes of people asking why my character hadn't "fixed" themself. I have people asking me that IRL now, and it's not even possible for me far as I know. Compounding that with diegetic versions of the same questions always put me off.
Yes. I guess I just figured it worked the same way.
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Because representation is more important than any presumed notion of historicity in a fantasy game.
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Because representation is more important than any presumed notion of historicity in a fantasy game.
Golarion is more "historically advanced" than earth anyway (it just developed differently). Earthfall was 9015 years ago by current reckoning (and there are contiguous cultures since before then) but human civilization didn't exist beyond "bands of hunter gatherers" before the 4th millenium BCE, so about 6000 years ago.
So trying to impose "historicity" on Golarion is weird. Golarion is sort of built on an advanced civilization that was destroyed in an apocalyptic event and we're now 9000 years after the apocalypse.
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For curable conditions, it's also worth asking whether these people can afford the relevant spellcasting services. In 2e getting someone to cast a mere second level spell on you costs 7gp. Someone who can barely pay their rent (and who has a disability that might make it hard for them to work) might take years to save that much. And if they need something like Regenerate cast on them, that would cost 50 times as much.
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The mechanic related answer is above, but because people crawl out of the woodwork these days to decry certain topics...
Because representation is more important than any presumed notion of historicity in a fantasy game.
This statement is utterly correct. PF never made any claims to some kind of historical accuracy and instead plays around with a lot of fantastical and utterly ahistorical elements. In many ways Golarion is as much a sci-if setting as it is a fantasy one, they just call their technology and science 'magic'.
Additionally, historical accuracy is much more difficult to achieve than doing the bare minimum to provide proper representation AND being historically accurate involves a lot more diversity than a lot of people that complain about historical accuracy like to believe would be accurate. That a company might prioritize a more achievable goal over chasing a less achievable one does not surprise me in the slightest.
Finally... do you know how much it would suck for your GM to look you in your eyes and tell you 'no your character cannot be like you. People like you don't exist in this world or can't be heroes'? It would suck. A lot.
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(To be 100% clear, this was not really directed at OP but intended to head off the bad faith actors that like to stir up trouble when they see a chance)
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(To be 100% clear, this was not really directed at OP but intended to head off the bad faith actors that like to stir up trouble when they see a chance)
It is probably a good thing to do, but I would also point out that this thread looks like the discussion ended almost a year ago and was necrobumped by an AI spambot.
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As an individual with severe hearing loss and a definite need for hearing aids, when I saw that hearing aids made it into Pathfinder, I laughed. And I mean really laughed.
My first thought was "how ridiculous is this!?"
I know more than most the advanced tech that goes into hearing aids. They're not merely the mic/speaker volume enhancers many people believe them to be.
Outside of Numeria such tech would be absolutely preposterous.
The mention of magical hearing aids made more sense to me in the context of the setting. Even so, like the OP I mistakenly wondered why there would be a need when magical cures were so easy to come by. "For use in Rahadum, where there is no easy access to divine healing?" I guessed.
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Because representation is more important than any presumed notion of historicity in a fantasy game.
Yes, but it can go too far.
I'm fine with representation, provided it doesn't come at the expense of the story or core material. Paizo does alright for the most part. Shows like the later seasons of CW's SuperGirl, however, are absolutely horrible propaganda with only the laziest hints of (often nonsensical) story to prop it all up.
Like all things in media and literature, representation can be handled respectfully and well; or badly, insulting the intelligence of the audience/recipients for the sake of appearing to care and checking a few more marketing boxes.
Farien, what spells would you recommend to combat an AI Spambot?
Well, they seem to be a combination of Illusory Creature and Magic Mouth. Which are both illusion spells.
So standing here casting Discern Secrets on everyone who comes by would at least help a little. True Seeing would be ideal, but that is quite a high level spell.
Hmm... Perhaps the best choice would be Enthrall. Make yourself be a lot more interesting so that it is less likely that anyone notices the Spambot trying to lure people.
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Because representation is more important than any presumed notion of historicity in a fantasy game.human civilization didn't exist beyond "bands of hunter gatherers" before the 4th millenium BCE, so about 6000 years ago.
Do you mean on Earth? Because there's no way that timeline holds up to our current understanding of Archaeology. Human civilization must be at least 10,000 years old if not more, based on finding like Gobekli Tepe and other megalithic structures (Gunung Padang) as well as the Sphinx in Egypt.
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Do you mean on Earth? Because there's no way that timeline holds up to our current understanding of Archaeology. Human civilization must be at least 10,000 years old if not more, based on finding like Gobekli Tepe and other megalithic structures (Gunung Padang) as well as the Sphinx in Egypt.Because representation is more important than any presumed notion of historicity in a fantasy game.human civilization didn't exist beyond "bands of hunter gatherers" before the 4th millenium BCE, so about 6000 years ago.
As new discoveries are made, the earliest dates of human civilization are likely to be pushed back further and further.
However, it seems unlikely that human civilizations will ever approximate anything like that of Golarion, where the current civilization is built on top of the ruins of 2 or 3 civilizations that died in world wide apocalyptic events. Civilization on Golarion goes back way way way further, as long as your not limiting it to human civilization ;)
(To be 100% clear, this was not really directed at OP but intended to head off the bad faith actors that like to stir up trouble when they see a chance)It is probably a good thing to do, but I would also point out that this thread looks like the discussion ended almost a year ago and was necrobumped by an AI spambot.
Damn, I missed that. I try to be more savvy about that sort of thing.
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As new discoveries are made, the earliest dates of human civilization are likely to be pushed back further and further.
However, it seems unlikely that human civilizations will ever approximate anything like that of Golarion, where the current civilization is built on top of the ruins of 2 or 3 civilizations that died in world wide apocalyptic events. Civilization on Golarion goes back way way way further, as long as your not limiting it to human civilization ;)
Yeah, whatever the actual dates work out to be, it's pretty clear to me that the Azlanti were technologically ahead of 2023 CE Earth, since they had successfully built AI.
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I would likke to point out that the first hearing aids were developed in the 1600s(that we know of). Now those were ear trumpets and had a lot of differences to modern hearing aids, they had to held to the ear and such.
In a world where there is magic,ancient technology,technology from beyond the stars, and just in general fantastical elements i feel like hearing aids arent a strech at all.
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Because representation is more important than any presumed notion of historicity in a fantasy game.Yes, but it can go too far.
I'm fine with representation, provided it doesn't come at the expense of the story or core material. Paizo does alright for the most part. Shows like the later seasons of CW's SuperGirl, however, are absolutely horrible propaganda with only the laziest hints of (often nonsensical) story to prop it all up.
Like all things in media and literature, representation can be handled respectfully and well; or badly, insulting the intelligence of the audience/recipients for the sake of appearing to care and checking a few more marketing boxes.
Can you give me an example of “representation going too far”? I’m not sure what the ‘propaganda’ version of that looks like.
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He already gave you one perfectly valid and egregious instance of this Keftiu, and you seem to be asking for more examples. This isn't a fishing community so I suggest you leave the bait at the tackle shop.
As for the topic at hand, medical assistive devices in a world where magic exists that can cure just about any ailment or disability feels a bit silly but it makes perfect sense that certain areas, societies, castes, and regions would just simply not have access to someone who is able (or willing) to perform such acts of compassion so it would instead fall to enterprising folk to create and sell such devices, fairly logical and understandable for sure.
This is a fantasy game after all, our imaginations should be brought to the table and not squashed whenever possible regardless of how realistic one might feel things "should" be, this isn't real life and there is no reason why we should assume that real-world restrictions like vision/hearing/able-bodiedness tests for military service should be in play, it's all pretend in the first place.
Yeah, whatever the actual dates work out to be, it's pretty clear to me that the Azlanti were technologically ahead of 2023 CE Earth, since they had successfully built AI.As new discoveries are made, the earliest dates of human civilization are likely to be pushed back further and further.
However, it seems unlikely that human civilizations will ever approximate anything like that of Golarion, where the current civilization is built on top of the ruins of 2 or 3 civilizations that died in world wide apocalyptic events. Civilization on Golarion goes back way way way further, as long as your not limiting it to human civilization ;)
ChatGPT at least raises the question of how advanced our artificial intelligences have become, but I largely agree with your point.
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He already gave you one perfectly valid and egregious instance of this Keftiu, and you seem to be asking for more examples. This isn't a fishing community so I suggest you leave the bait at the tackle shop.
He gave me the name of a TV show with no further description of what, precisely, went so terribly wrong - I’m allowed to ask a clarifying question without it being bait.
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No such thing as 'representation going too far'. People mistake bad writing and bald-faced rainbow capitalism trying to capture revenue streams from marginalized groups and minorities as somehow being the fault of attempts at representation.
Just saying 'Supergirl am bad' doesn't cut it when I could lay the handful of criticisms made in this thread at the feet of CW just being a bit s$&# at keeping their shows going for more than one season and just being bad at writing in general.
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Bear in mind that within the context of lore (if I recall correctly) there is one store in Absalom that makes the various assistive devices, and does so exclusively for Pathfinder society members.
Although I do feel there is a disconnect, because I've seen plenty of lore present the idea of becoming a Pathfinder in the first place as difficult. There are characters in video games that for sure talk about making a big accomplishment in order to get a field commission. Those who are differently abled in the first place, would have a more challenging time becoming members of the Pathfinder Society, before they even have access to these items.
Which makes it somewhat curious to me that the items exist (from a lore standpoint) because it seems unlikely that substantial numbers of Pathfinders would be able to enter the ranks that needed such devices.
However, this is also a world of magic and crazy technology (in places) and while I do feel the lore is a bit inconsistent on how and why it exists, I think that the options and representation are good. Letting people play a character like themselves is good.
Being told "Yeah, you can't bring a character in a wheel chair to the group because how are you going to adventure!" is bad.
Design Manager
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Bear in mind that within the context of lore (if I recall correctly) there is one store in Absalom that makes the various assistive devices, and does so exclusively for Pathfinder society members.
There are a variety of places across Golarion that make various assistive devices for different consumer groups, explicitly including a number of workshops in Alkenstar and Dongun Hold, at least one foundry in Arcadia, and a lodge in Katapesh.
There are a variety of places across Golarion that make various assistive devices for different consumer groups, explicitly including a number of workshops in Alkenstar and Dongun Hold, at least one foundry in Arcadia, and a lodge in Katapesh.Bear in mind that within the context of lore (if I recall correctly) there is one store in Absalom that makes the various assistive devices, and does so exclusively for Pathfinder society members.
Thanks for the correction.
From my perspective it would make more sense if they were commonly available items in every city with the basic versions being produced basically everywhere.
But it does help to know it's less limited than I thought it was.
There are some industries that generally only exist in cities of sufficient size because what they do isn't necessarily widely needed, but in a sufficiently large community you will find enough people who want what you do to sustain the business.
Assistive devices seem like one of those things, since in your village of 50 people it's conceivable that for a given period of time nobody would need an assistive device, but in a city of 3m you can find 50 that need what you make pretty easily.
There are some industries that generally only exist in cities of sufficient size because what they do isn't necessarily widely needed, but in a sufficiently large community you will find enough people who want what you do to sustain the business.
Assistive devices seem like one of those things, since in your village of 50 people it's conceivable that for a given period of time nobody would need an assistive device, but in a city of 3m you can find 50 that need what you make pretty easily.
Is 50 enough to stay in business? Especially when lets face it, a majority of them would probably rather remove the issue entirely?
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There are a variety of places across Golarion that make various assistive devices for different consumer groups, explicitly including a number of workshops in Alkenstar and Dongun Hold, at least one foundry in Arcadia, and a lodge in Katapesh.Bear in mind that within the context of lore (if I recall correctly) there is one store in Absalom that makes the various assistive devices, and does so exclusively for Pathfinder society members.
I imagine Alksenstar is a big seller of hearing aids, what with all the cannons and gun shots going off all the time.
Yea. You're making the assumption that casters of 3rd level cleric spells are just hanging out on the street corners, waiting to cure people.
A vast majority of the population are farmers, merchants, peasants, factory workers.
At least a hearing aid could be put on layaway or something.
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Because representation is more important than any presumed notion of historicity in a fantasy game.
I started playing D&D in 1979. I've never played martial characters due to the lack of representation in the game ruining my fantasy of playing them. Despite my childhood fantasy of playing a knight in shining armor saying dragons, I've always played spell casters and rogues. At this point, I'd even be happy with an AP without combat at all.
Representation and inclusion. Not an easy thing to do and get right.
We have Iconics that represent several different sexual orientations.
We have Iconics with physical disabilities - Alahazra who is mostly blind due to the Oracle curse, and Droven who has a prosthetic arm.
Do we have any Iconics with mental disabilities though? Any who are openly Autistic, or suffer with PTSD or Depression? ADHD? Schizophrenia? Anything?
Or is that still too much of a hot topic to try and get representation and inclusion for?
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Representation and inclusion. Not an easy thing to do and get right.
We have Iconics that represent several different sexual orientations.
We have Iconics with physical disabilities - Alahazra who is mostly blind due to the Oracle curse, and Droven who has a prosthetic arm.
Do we have any Iconics with mental disabilities though? Any who are openly Autistic, or suffer with PTSD or Depression? ADHD? Schizophrenia? Anything?
Or is that still too much of a hot topic to try and get representation and inclusion for?
That's not really fair, tho. For one thing, to ask of the people who make an effort to be inclusive why they aren't being more inclusive.
And another, wouldn't it seem a little contrived to conveniently have one of every type of disability among all the iconics? "Sure you've got schizophrenia. But what about dimentia?"I mean, it's okay to have ones without disabilities too.
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If you want an iconic for every group needing one, Paizos is going to have to come up with a LOT more classes. Or start making iconics that are not tied to classes.
I have a bad back it's currently keeping me from looking for work, I certainly don't want chiropractor bills in Pathfinder as well, or an iconic character that can't lift a 640 page rule book without pain.
I think Representation and inclusion are good, but not every case needs them.
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Just want to chime in to say that I personally have been really impressed with Paizo's approach to representation thus far. They just sort of quietly include representation all over the place, and don't make a particularly big deal about it. This hearing aid? The gender-change potion? To me these are just entries on an item list that I will never use, along with all the other entries on item lists that I will never use. Admittedly, it looks like "prosthetic limb" is starting to fill the slot that we used to have "grafts" in, and grafts were cool, so maybe I'll start paying attention to that bit, but it's not forcing itself into my gaming experience in any real way until then. Mios is non-binary, and literally the only indication I've seen of that is the pronoun they use. Yep. That's a "they". Huh. Okay. Moving on.
It's just... it's chill. That's all. It's looking at all these various groups out there and saying "Why yes, people just like you exist in this world, and are adventurers, and it's not even a thing. It's just what is."
I just really like the bit where there isn't any sort of false dichotomy between people who are not like me having reason to feel marginalized on the one side and people who are like me being seen as evil on the other. I don't like either of those two things. Paizo gives us the world the way things should be, where none of this is really a big deal for anybody.
I hope we actually manage to get there in the real world some day, even if I personally don't expect to be alive to see it.
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I'm actually excited about the prosthetic limbs.
Due to weird bad luck with a particularly brutal d100 crit chart, I had a barbarian lose both feet; one each in separate gaming sessions.
How do you come back from that? So having prosthetics available is nice.
I was actually thinking about how autism was probably the next most-difficult-to-get-right representation to include. I wouldn't say representation requires an iconic character (after all, no iconic has prosthetic limbs or paraplegia yet, but we can see clear inclusivity in the item list) but I'm also not seeing many other ways to include neurodivergence--except perhaps through NPCs in adventures, though that itself may not be a very good option if it causes GMs to fall back onto stereotypes to portray unfamiliar groups in their games.
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I was actually thinking about how autism was probably the next most-difficult-to-get-right representation to include. I wouldn't say representation requires an iconic character (after all, no iconic has prosthetic limbs or paraplegia yet, but we can see clear inclusivity in the item list) but I'm also not seeing many other ways to include neurodivergence--except perhaps through NPCs in adventures, though that itself may not be a very good option if it causes GMs to fall back onto stereotypes to portray unfamiliar groups in their games.
Well... to some degree you can do it in a low-profile way with ancestries. You wouldn't want to be too blatant with it. "Here. Have the autistic-person ancestry." is sending the wrong message entirely... but at the same time, goblins (for example) aren't exactly human neurotypical.
My son is currently building a goblin rogue. He's really looking forward to having an excuse to play up a bunch of the aspects of his personality that he normally must keep leashed for the sake of politeness. I'll be playing a paladin with the self-appointed task of trying to keep that CN menace to society pointed at the enemy. We'll see how it works out.
I was actually thinking about how autism was probably the next most-difficult-to-get-right representation to include. I wouldn't say representation requires an iconic character (after all, no iconic has prosthetic limbs or paraplegia yet, but we can see clear inclusivity in the item list) but I'm also not seeing many other ways to include neurodivergence--except perhaps through NPCs in adventures, though that itself may not be a very good option if it causes GMs to fall back onto stereotypes to portray unfamiliar groups in their games.
Thank you. That is at least a better response than "Oh, we don't have room for you. Go away."
But that is also the point of representation - to help educate people and dissolve incorrect stereotypes.
after all, no iconic has prosthetic limbs or paraplegia yet, but we can see clear inclusivity in the item list
Droven, the iconic Inventor, does.
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I hadn't thought about goblins as autistic representation before now and it fits but I feel bad about it. Lol. Since their aesthetics and mannerisms are played for comedic effect for the most part. I feel like that's the wrong message.
Also that they have historically been used as enemies.
I have been using Android for it currently. Both on these forums and in a PBP game I am in.