Touch of Idiocy
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bloodrager 2, medium 2, mesmerist 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, spiritualist 2, witch 2; Domain madness 2; Subdomain lust 2; Bloodline accursed 2, daemon 2, div 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target living creature touched
Duration 10 min./level
Saving Throw no; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
With a touch, you reduce the target’s mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can’t reduce any of these scores below 1.[/b]
This spell’s effect may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level.
Restoration, Lesser
School conjuration (healing); Level alchemist 2, cleric/oracle 2, druid 2, inquisitor 2, paladin 1, shaman 2; Mystery life 2
CASTING
Casting Time 3 rounds
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)DESCRIPTION
Lesser restoration dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject’s ability scores or cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to one of the subject’s ability scores. It also eliminates any fatigue suffered by the character, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued. It does not restore permanent ability drain.
Short Answer: Yes.
It's a magic debuff that exists on the target for 10min/level or until it gets dispelled, and Lesser Restoration would dispel it.
but you need 3 for all 3.
"Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores."
"dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject’s ability scores "
the touch hurt 3 at once. the lesser fix one at a time.
(ether that or it doesn't work. said magic effect effects more then one ability so it's not dispelled. I can also see some gm rule that)
I think the only things that unclear to me is if lesser restoration would remove the effect against all ability score, or only one (in a case where there are multiple effects each targeting a different ability).
LR does specify one of the ability scores, however in the case of Touch of Idiocy since LR says it dispels it, it dispels the entirety of the effect of the spell. But I'm thinking a situation where it's multiple spells each affecting one ability score...I think it would require multiple castings of LR to remove.
Edit: Interesting ZZZ and I are both looking at that same wording but have different conclusions.
I will concede that in a literal since, LR would do nothing against touch of idiocy because it affects more than 1 ability and cannot dispel it, and touch of idiocy isn't ability damage.
However, I think that reading is too literal, and interpret it as allowing for touch of idiocy to be dispelled. However, I don't have anything to back it up besides a desire for it to be true.
Maybe the compromise is as ZZZ suggest and it requires 3 castings of LR to remove penalties from all 3 stats. Ultimately, I think that's how it should go.
Do you have to cast Touch of Idiocy three times to cause the penalty to all three ability scores? Seems quite natural for a level 2 spell to cancel out a level 2 spell.
"Lesser restoration dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject’s ability scores." Touch of Idiocy does reduce one of the subject's ability scores. Therefore, Lesser Restoration dispels Touch of Idiocy.
I mean that's the question really. Touch of Idiocy doesn't just reduce one of the ability scores, it reduces three. And technically it doesn't reduce them, but applies a penalty (although I don't think that is a real difference, but I bring it up because we're getting into very literal readings/interpretations of the rules).
No. Lesser restoration will NOT dispel Touch of Idiocy. Lesser Restoration can only dispel a penalty affecting a single ability score at a time. Touch of Idiocy simultaneously penalizes three scores. A generous GM may allow it to dispel the effect from one score at a time, thus requiring three castings of lesser restoration to remove touch of idiocy, but by RAW lesser restoration has no effect against touch of idiocy.
Touch of Idiocy
School enchantment (compulsion) [mind-affecting]; Level bloodrager 2, medium 2, mesmerist 2, psychic 2, sorcerer/wizard 2, spiritualist 2, witch 2; Domain madness 2; Subdomain lust 2; Bloodline accursed 2, daemon 2, div 2
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target living creature touched
Duration 10 min./level
Saving Throw no; Spell Resistance yesDESCRIPTION
With a touch, you reduce the target’s mental faculties. Your successful melee touch attack applies a 1d6 penalty to the target’s Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. This penalty can’t reduce any of these scores below 1.
may make it impossible for the target to cast some or all of its spells, if the requisite ability score drops below the minimum required to cast spells of that level.
Restoration, Lesser
School conjuration (healing); Level alchemist 2, cleric/oracle 2, druid 2, inquisitor 2, paladin 1, shaman 2; Mystery life 2
CASTING
Casting Time 3 rounds
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)DESCRIPTION
Lesser restoration reducing one of the subject’s ability scores or cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to one of the subject’s ability scores. It also eliminates any fatigue suffered by the character, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued. It does not restore permanent ability drain.
Touch of Idiocy has a magical effect that is placed upon the target. The magical effect reduces one of the subject's ability scores; in fact, it reduces a total of three. Lesser Restoration dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject's ability scores.
Lesser Restoration even removes Touch of Idiocy in the video games, even DDO. Why do you think a game based on 3.5 rules would allow Lesser Restoration to remove Touch of Idiocy? It is because the intent of Lesser Restoration was to remove magical effects that reduce ability scores.... this whole time.
There are multiple arguments here:
1) Lesser restoration treats reductions of abilities scores or temporary ability damage. A penalty (which Touch of Idiocy imposes) is neither. If you ascribe to this idea, then LR does nothing against ToI. I feel like is a bad faith argument, but it exists.
2) Because Lesser Restoration specifies any magical effect reducing one ability, it does not apply to Touch of Idiocy because it afflicts penalties to 3 ability scores not just one. If you subscribe to this argument, then LR does nothing to ToI.
3) Lesser Restoration works to remove the penalties, but can only remove one at a time. Thus, to fully "cure" yourself it requires 3 castings. (Honestly as I think on this more I think this is the least supported position based on reading the rules. I think it either does nothing, or completely dispels ToI and "cures" you.)
4) Lesser restoration says it dispels magical effects that reduce ability scores, so you dispel Touch of Idiocy. Since one spell has multiple effects, dispelling it would end all the effects. Thus it would require 1 casting of LR.
As I think about this more, I'm considering an analogy of casting Dispel Magic spell. If you cast Dispel Magic targeting ToI and succeeded at your dispel check it would end the penalty to all 3 ability scores. However, Dispel Magic is also level 3 instead of 2 and requires a dispel check. LR is level 2, and automatically dispel but on a very limited subset of kinds of magic (only those inflicting reductions to ability scores). Perhaps that is a reasonable trade off.
I've somewhat convinced myself with this last example that a single casting of LR should completely defeat ToI.
That said, I do feel Ryze statements come off in a hostile manner when I believe each of these options has legitimate support within the text and we have to strive to have the best understanding within the overall context of the game.
Touch of Idiocy has a magical effect that is placed upon the target. The magical effect reduces one of the subject's ability scores; in fact, it reduces a total of three. Lesser Restoration dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject's ability scores.
It only removes it if it affects ONE not multiple, ONE.
[QOUTE=“Ryze Kuja”]Lesser Restoration even removes Touch of Idiocy in the video games, even DDO. Why do you think a game based on 3.5 rules would allow Lesser Restoration to remove Touch of Idiocy? It is because the intent of Lesser Restoration was to remove magical effects that reduce ability scores.... this whole time.
They took programming shortcuts in the CRPG. The spell also restores damage to ALL abilities scores when used in the games instead of just to one at a time. They simply opted to make it affect all in the games to simplify the coding and usage for it. If they hadn’t then players would be prompted to select what ability score to affect.
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Restoration, Lesser
School conjuration (healing); Level alchemist 2, cleric/oracle 2, druid 2, inquisitor 2, paladin 1, shaman 2; Mystery life 2
CASTING
Casting Time 3 rounds
Components V, SEFFECT
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)DESCRIPTION
Lesser restoration dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject’s ability scores or cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to one of the subject’s ability scores. It also eliminates any fatigue suffered by the character, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued. It does not restore permanent ability drain.
Short Answer: Yes.
It's a magic debuff that exists on the target for 10min/level or until it gets dispelled, and Lesser Restoration would dispel it.
no.
touch of idiocy doesn't reduce 1 ability score.it reduces 3.
Lesser restoration reducing one of the subject’s ability scores or cures 1d4 points of temporary ability damage to one of the subject’s ability scores. It also eliminates any fatigue suffered by the character, and improves an exhausted condition to fatigued. It does not restore permanent ability drain.
That is some very selective highlighting. It does not dispel magical effects. It specifically dispels magical effects that are reducing one of the subjects ability scores. (Not one or more).
Either it has no effect on ToI, or it recovers one stat from ToI.
Lesser Restoration even removes Touch of Idiocy in the video games, even DDO.
The CRPG for Kingmaker lets me:
Charge through allies.Does not make me wait 1 week between casting restoration to remove permanent negative levels. Restoration also always requires diamond dust, whether removing a negative level or not, but only uses a small amount (not 1000gp worth).
Does an SR check for each magic missile, rather than the spell as a whole.
Does not let me convert my full attack action into a standard and move if my first attack kills the target.
Does not let me split the casting of full round spells between two turns.
etc. etc. etc.
How CRPGs based on a given roleplaying system function has no bearing on how the pen & paper rules work. Computer based versions do things to simplify certain rules aspects, remove things that would be annoying in a computerized version, and so forth. (Just like certain popular character generator tools sometimes implement things wrong, and are not to be used as a rules source).
4) Lesser restoration says it dispels magical effects that reduce ability scores, so you dispel Touch of Idiocy. Since one spell has multiple effects, dispelling it would end all the effects. Thus it would require 1 casting of LR.As I think about this more, I'm considering an analogy of casting Dispel Magic spell. If you cast Dispel Magic targeting ToI and succeeded at your dispel check it would end the penalty to all 3 ability scores. However, Dispel Magic is also level 3 instead of 2 and requires a dispel check. LR is level 2, and automatically dispel but on a very limited subset of kinds of magic (only those inflicting reductions to ability scores). Perhaps that is a reasonable trade off.
I've somewhat convinced myself with this last example that a single casting of LR should completely defeat ToI.
If you want to dispel 3 for 1 casting, you are going to need greater restoration.
This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it dispels all permanent and temporary negative levels afflicting the healed creature. Greater restoration also dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature’s abilities...
Note the plural usage here vs the singular (one) that LR (and by extension R) have.
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Some spells and abilities cause you to take an ability penalty for a limited amount of time. While in effect, these penalties function just like ability damage, but they cannot cause you to fall unconscious or die. In essence, penalties cannot decrease your ability score to less than 1.
Now I have muddied the water even more, as we have a CRB citation that says that penalties work like damage.
LOLRedacted - While not RAW (but RAW can be debated for the next year) I would go with the most linear solution: you remove the penalty to one stat for each casting of Lesser Restoration. - Redacted
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Thinking a bit more about Finneous Emberstorm argument you either remove the whole spell or you do nothing, as you can't affect only part of an ongoing spell with concurrent multiple effects.
Removing 3 penalties with one casting is beyond the scope of Lesser Restoration, so the only RAW conclusion is that it doesn't affect Touch of Idiocy.
Thinking a bit more about Finneous Emberstorm argument you either remove the whole spell or you do nothing, as you can't affect only part of an ongoing spell with concurrent multiple effects.
Removing 3 penalties with one casting is beyond the scope of Lesser Restoration, so the only RAW conclusion is that it doesn't affect Touch of Idiocy.
while i fully agree it should be so. my inner rule lawyer has to ask :
"why not?"
(i can't recall a rule that say so)
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4) Lesser restoration says it dispels magical effects that reduce ability scores, so you dispel Touch of Idiocy. Since one spell has multiple effects, dispelling it would end all the effects. Thus it would require 1 casting of LR.As I think about this more, I'm considering an analogy of casting Dispel Magic spell. If you cast Dispel Magic targeting ToI and succeeded at your dispel check it would end the penalty to all 3 ability scores. However, Dispel Magic is also level 3 instead of 2 and requires a dispel check. LR is level 2, and automatically dispel but on a very limited subset of kinds of magic (only those inflicting reductions to ability scores). Perhaps that is a reasonable trade off.
I've somewhat convinced myself with this last example that a single casting of LR should completely defeat ToI.
If you want to dispel 3 for 1 casting, you are going to need greater restoration.
Note the plural usage here vs the singular (one) that LR (and by extension R) have.
This spell functions like lesser restoration, except that it dispels all permanent and temporary negative levels afflicting the healed creature. Greater restoration also dispels all magical effects penalizing the creature’s abilities...
Like I said, there are many possible courses of logic.
The only ones that are reasonable to me are that LR either does nothing to ToI (because ToI imposes multiple penalties and LR can't do anything because of the wording of one) or LR works and because it dispels the spell it would completely remove the effects of ToI. It's not that it heals all 3 scores, but that it dispel an effect which happens to cause multiple ability score penalties.
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Thinking a bit more about Finneous Emberstorm argument you either remove the whole spell or you do nothing, as you can't affect only part of an ongoing spell with concurrent multiple effects.
Removing 3 penalties with one casting is beyond the scope of Lesser Restoration, so the only RAW conclusion is that it doesn't affect Touch of Idiocy.
while i fully agree it should be so. my inner rule lawyer has to ask :
"why not?"
(i can't recall a rule that say so)
Because you need permission from the rules to be able to dispel only part of a spell.
Dispel Magic: "You can use dispel magic to end one ongoing spell that has been cast on a creature or object, to temporarily suppress the magical abilities of a magic item, or to counter another spellcaster’s spell."
No mention of partially removing a spell.
The FAQs have an exception to that: if you use a "diametrically opposed" spell to dispel another spell and that spell affect multiple targets while your "diametrically opposed" spell affect a lower number of targets, you remove the spell only from the number of targets you can affect, not from all of them. FAQ
You still remove the spell completely from those you can affect.
Another specific exception is Prismatic Wall/Sphere, where you can remove one layer of the wall with the right spell. But again, it is a specific exception, clearly spelled as such, not a general rule.
It can be argued that Lesser Restoration is "diametrically opposed" to Touch of Idiocy, but "diametrically opposed" spells have a text of this kind: "Haste dispels and counters slow." Lesser Restoration hasn't it.
Even more relevant, "diametrically opposed" spells work both ways. Haste counter Slow and Slow counter Haste.
Touch of Idiocy doesn't counter Lesser Restoration (tankfully).
If you earnestly believe that Lesser Restoration must be cast three times to get rid of the Touch of Idiocy magical effect, then at some level, you agree that
1) ToI's magic effect can indeed be removed by Lesser Restoration (albeit x3 casting), and
2) the debuff from ToI causes three separate magic effects that can each be removed individually.
So under your interpretation, you could cast Lesser Restoration and remove the -1d6 Int penalty, and the -1d6 penalties for Wisdom and Charisma remain active on the target, correct? And you would need to cast Lesser Restoration two more times to remove the final two penalties that are still active on the target, correct?
Lesser restoration dispels magical effects reducing one of the subject’s ability scores
When they say "any", you can read that as "every" or "all". It doesn't dispel one magic effect; it dispels ANY magic effect. It gets rid of ANY magical effect that is reducing one of your ability scores. So, ANY current debuff that you have on your person that is reducing an ability score gets dispelled with a single casting of Lesser Restoration. That means if you have one magical effect affecting your ability scores, it becomes dispelled. That means if you have three magical effects affecting your ability scores, all three become dispelled. That means if you have five magical effects affecting your ability scores, all five become dispelled. That means if you have one thousand magical effects affecting your ability scores, all one thousand become dispelled.
Or, you may alternatively cure 1d4 points of ability damage to a single ability score, if you've taken any actual temporary ability damage.
It's an either/or spell.
EITHER you dispel every magical effect affecting one of your ability scores, OR you cure 1d4 temp ability damage.
Lesser restoration dispels magical effects reducing of the subject’s ability scoresLast I checked int, wis, and cha were 3 different stats.
3 is not 1
Can Lesser Restoration be cast three times to remove ToI?
I think this is our problem right here.
Some of you are reading it like this:
Lesser restoration dispels magical effects reducing of the subject’s ability scores
This interpretation allows the dispelling of magic effects that cause single stat penalties only, and disallows the dispelling of magic effects that cause multi-stat penalties, such as ToI.
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While myself and some others are reading it like this:
Lesser restoration dispels magical effects reducing subject’s ability scores
This interpretation allows the dispelling of magic effects that cause single stat or multi-stat penalties.
=================================
Frankly, neither interpretation is right or wrong because it can be interpreted ambiguously. It's your table, you do you.
This has been my point during the conversation. Depending on how you place emphasis/focus on the wording of the spell LR either does nothing or completely removes it by dispelling the root effect. The cast 3 times answer is the one that makes the least sense as I analyze this more and more.
Although I think many people might decide that is the route to go because saying it does nothing feels punitive, and saying it completely removes the effect feels to easy.
I wouldn't say it's too easy. Haste/Slow, Bless/Bane, Darkness/Daylight counter each other.
While Lesser Restoration and Touch of Idiocy do not counter each other like these diametrically opposed spells ----^, it does represent an equal level spell cancelling out another equal level spell.
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I wouldn't say it's too easy. Haste/Slow, Bless/Bane, Darkness/Daylight counter each other.
While Lesser Restoration and Touch of Idiocy do not counter each other like these diametrically opposed spells ----^, it does represent an equal level spell cancelling out another equal level spell.
But an equal level spell canceling another equal spell that isn't diametrically opposed isn't the norm.
The norm is that Dispel Magic can cancel any level of spells with a successful roll, Break enchantment, Dispel Evil (Good, etc.), and Remove Curse dispel a specific set of spells with a successful roll while the other spells cancel or remove specific effects without dispelling the original spell.Lesser Restoration dispels a specific set of magical effects (not spells): "dispels any magical effects reducing one of the subject’s ability scores".
There is the usual ambiguity about what is an effect, but an effect isn't a spell with a duration, it is the consequence of a spell.
You remove the effect, but the spell stays, so the effect returns immediately if its duration still lasts.
But an equal level spell canceling another equal spell that isn't diametrically opposed isn't the norm.
You mean like See Invisibility countering Invisibility? Or True Seeing seeing through Mirage Arcana? Ya, that never happens.
There is a good reason they gave Lesser Restoration a 3-round cast time and Touch of Idiocy a Standard Action cast time, and it's because Lesser Restoration is that freaking good. They didn't want it being used in combat because it's powerful enough to nullify entire encounters.
There is also the wording of restoration to consider. “Dispel all magical effects affecting any of the targets ability scores”. There would have been no need to change the wording if lesser restoration already did that. In context, lesser restoration only works for one ability score at a time, while restoration works on all simultaneously, in all regards.
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You mean like See Invisibility countering Invisibility? Or True Seeing seeing through Mirage Arcana? Ya, that never happens.
But an equal level spell canceling another equal spell that isn't diametrically opposed isn't the norm.
No, not happening.
See invisibility allows you, and only you, to see the invisible creature/thing. It doesn't counter the spell at all.Same thing for True Seeing and Mirage Arcana, with the difference that you can cast True Seeing on another person.
Countering =/= making irrelevant for 1 person.
Glitterdust allows all people to see and target an invisible creature, but it is still invisible. When glitterdust ends its invisibility works again, so it isn't countered, a different effect is stacked over it, making it irrelevant.
In-game Counter mean something specific, not a generic meaning of working against:
Specific Exceptions: Some spells can counter other specific spells, often those with diametrically opposed effects.
If you are using "counter" in another way, we are on a completely different wavelength.
There is a good reason they gave Lesser Restoration a 3-round cast time and Touch of Idiocy a Standard Action cast time, and it's because Lesser Restoration is that freaking good. They didn't want it being used in combat because it's powerful enough to nullify entire encounters.
You are able to read the Developers' minds?
BTW, a portion of Lesser Restoration can be drunk as a standard action and works immediately.