Avr, I just leveled up my bloodrager from 6 to 7, and your guide was very helpful. The dice icons were easy to see, and the sections were easy to navigate.
I'm using a non-optimized philosophy for my spell selection, so the ratings for the spells (which lean heavily towards direct damage or defense) didn't work for what I wanted, but it was still a helpful list to review (I learned about blade lash vs. thunderstomp, for example [although the latter does have a better range]). What I really appreciate is how you've linked to each spell you discuss, so that the reader can more easily read the text of the spell to have the proper context to read your evaluation.
Thanks for the guide!
^Good catch, although beware that since the Bloodrager spell list doesn't have Read Magic, you will need to actually invest in Spellcraft.
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I'm not sure I would agree with rating the vestige bloodline as solid, it's not very good or interesting.
You'll probably trade out the 1st level ability for a familiar, the 4th level ability is a situational +1, 8th is a limited bonus feat, 12th level ability is a once illusion effect.
Agreed on most of this, but the 8th level ability isn't just a limited bonus feat, but also an action economy boost if you build right. Style Feats have the annoying limitation that you have to spend a Swift Action to enter a style, and you can't even do it until combat begins, which could you behind on getting it started. The 8th level ability gets around this, once you meet the prerequisites for the Style Feat you selected. (Treat the lousy option to burn spell slots to use it even if you don't meet the prerequisites as just a temporary way to get some use out of your bonus feat if you couldn't quite squeeze in all the prerequisites before 8th level, although a Style Feat that has that many prerequisites probably won't be good on a Bloodrager . . . still, it's nice to have the option just in case you were doing something really crazy like Bloodrager VMC something else while going for a Style Feat.
I would possibly consider destined 5, it's not the most exciting bloodline but the 4 level ability makes it one of the best defensive bloodlines with fates favored, the 8th level ability is amazing if you can rage cycle, the 12th level ability is more situational, I would trade it if that's an option but it can be a literal life saver. Very late so rarely worth mentioning, but it has to be said, the 16th level ability is one of the best, both offensively and may as well say, immune to crits
. . . And the 20th level ability is pretty good too (and works even when not in Bloodrage), and would be a keeper if only the (very late 1st Edition) Alternate Capstones didn't include some totally over-the-top options.
I think you undervalue Bloodrager claws from Abyssal Bloodline.
In my opinion, they have sufficient utility to be worth it:
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Good catch -- just because claws that don't have some awesome effect like Ghoul Paralysis are bad on a Sorcerer doesn't mean they're usually bad on a Bloodrager, since a Bloodrager actually DOES want to be in melee combat most of the time. Another use to add for them: If you want to use a Reach weapon, the claws are nice to have as a way to smack an enemy who manages to slip inside your minimum range.
I think Steelblood varies in usefulness depending on what stats you have to play with. If you can't afford to have a decent dexterity, then heavy armor can be very helpful.
And with a class that also wants strength, constitution, charisma and wisdom, being able to drop on dexterity can be fairly tempting.
The problem with dumping dex is no combat reflexes, and bloodragers can get immensely potent AoOs. You could potentially burn a feat on torags divine fighting style to AoO from wis.
AoO are good, but it's not like you have to build around them. One per round isn't terrible. And if you aren't using dexterity for AC, then being flat footed isn't going to make a huge difference most of the time anyway.
It's not like you "want" to dump dex. But if your stat budget is tight enough, you might end up having to.
--As an armor training included class, they qualify for improved armor training and armor mastery feats. Armor mastery has a "enchantment of your armor to your initiative", which is great, and "divide armor training class leves by 4 and add to AC" which is pretty good too.
I presume you mean Advanced Armor Training? Only Fighters get that naturally ("Beginning at 7th level, [...] a fighter can choose an advanced armor training option"), and the feat requires Fighter level 3rd. As for the armor mastery feat you've mentioned, it's only better than Improved Initiative with a +5 armor - I don't think it's paticularly noteworthy.
Dip into furious guardian (took the rage power dedication) allowed me savage intuition, and then use extra rage powers to get like, superstition, witch hunter and raging brutality.
The prestige class is actually called Ulfen Guard. It definitely warrants checking with your GM whether your BR levels cound as Barb levels for Rage Powers, as while RAW it does, I don't think that's intended (and even though I don't usually care about what might be RAI, this does something outside the scope of a prestige class). It should be noted that in either case you only qualify as 1st level Barb.
If you want to optimize steelblood, probably consider the oracle dip, take cha instead of dex.
Doesn't work: "Your armor's maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity."
Technically not diminished spellcasting, but diminished spells known.
Huh, I never actually noticed that. While still annoying, I think that's better!
so taken together, they are just 2 different power sources for the same thing.
No, they're not the "same thing". While Bloodrage counts as rage for feats, magic items, and spells, the reverse is not true. You're trying to construct a Schrödinger's Rage where you're simulataneously in your old rage (i.e. it hasn't ended) and not in your old rage (you don't need to pay for it).
What's useful about Plagueborn?
That's not what I asked. I don't see the "especially" part.
In order for it to be especially useful for a Slayer, you need 1) a campaign where you can catch such an effect from mere sneaking around without fighting, 2) the player being interested in sneaking around, 3) the player having opportunity to sneak ahead without the other players revolting because they're sidlelined for the-GM-and-the-Slayer-in-the-sewers part, and 4) a player who doesn't want Sacred Tattoo (because it's mutually exclusive with Plagueborn and a much, much stronger overall racial trait). If even a single one of these is untrue, Plagueborn is not "especially useful". Indeed, due to the good fortitude save, it's less useful to them than for classes with weak Fort.
If only one player in a million is interested in something, it shouldn't be in a guide.
--As an armor training included class, they qualify for improved armor training and armor mastery feats. Armor mastery has a "enchantment of your armor to your initiative", which is great, and "divide armor training class leves by 4 and add to AC" which is pretty good too.I presume you mean Advanced Armor Training? Only Fighters get that naturally ("Beginning at 7th level, [...] a fighter can choose an advanced armor training option"), and the feat requires Fighter level 3rd. {. . .}
Some things other than Fighter count as Fighter for the purpose of qualifying for feats. Magus isn't the only one, but it does come to mind as a class that has archetypes that grant Armor Training and in one case also Weapon Training (explicitly as the Fighter class feature), and its Fighter Training class feature lets you qualify for Advanced Armor Training and Advanced Weapon Training. (Myrmidarch Magus gives you both and is only a somewhat bad but still serviceable archetype; Armored Battlemage gives you Armor Training only, but it's a highly bad archetype.)
so taken together, they are just 2 different power sources for the same thing.No, they're not the "same thing". While Bloodrage counts as rage for feats, magic items, and spells, the reverse is not true. You're trying to construct a Schrödinger's Rage where you're simulataneously in your old rage (i.e. it hasn't ended) and not in your old rage (you don't need to pay for it).
I don't see any Schroedinger's aspect to it -- when you switch Rage power sources, you are still in a state of Rage (Bloodrage is if anything a superset of Rage in terms of its effect). But even if the GM was going to rule hard-core your way, I think the strategy I posted earlier for dealing with this is still serviceable -- use the VMC Barbarian Rage when just needing regular Rage and not the Bloodrager Bloodline Powers, and use Bloodrage when needing these; since Meta-Rage uses Bloodrage rounds and works even when you are not in Bloodrage, you can use it just fine when in VMC Barbarian Rage. (And try to avoid cutting it too close to the wire for running out of one type of Rage, but carry around a Wand or even Potions of Lesser Restoration in case of need for a quick switch -- will probably end up on the average causing 1 round hiccup of action economy hiccup per day.)
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In order for it to be especially useful for a Slayer, you need 1) a campaign where you can catch such an effect from mere sneaking around without fighting,
At least one Paizo AP immediately comes to mind: Council of Thieves. That has some NASTY underground (sewer) terrain. (At least a little bit on topic for this thread -- the PbP that I followed from start to finish had a literally Rogueish Paladin(*) who could have benefited from this if not for being non-Half-Orc; Bloodrager and Slayer weren't even out yet, but if they had been, and had been similarly built for sneaking around, they could have also benefited from this if they were Half-Orc.)
(*)Very appropriate for a Paladin of Abadar.
Another Paizo PbP that comes is Shattered Star, but that's mainly in the very first part, so from here on I'll stick with the Council of Thieves example.
2) the player being interested in sneaking around,
If you're interested playing Council of Thieves, chances are not too shabby that you'll be interested in doing this.
3) the player having opportunity to sneak ahead without the other players revolting because they're sidlelined for the-GM-and-the-Slayer-in-the-sewers part,
The sheer filth described in the above PbP is enough that I think a decent fraction of players might be interested in providing support from a distance that at least gives them a decent chance to avoid getting slimed.
and 4) a player who doesn't want Sacred Tattoo (because it's mutually exclusive with Plagueborn and a much, much stronger overall racial trait).
Again, Council of Thieves. This has enough extended social encounters that a GM that was a stickler for the social effect of appearance might well rule that Sacred Tattoo would be a hindrance in these.
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If only one player in a million is interested in something, it shouldn't be in a guide.
Although Council of Thieves was for some odd reason not one of the more popular Paizo APs, I am going to hazard a guess that more than one Pathfinder player in a million has played it.
Just wanted to provide additional recommendation in favor of Urban Bloodrager -- although it is mentioned very briefly in the guide (but not in the example build that uses it), having the Adopted Magic ability to snag Bard and Magus spells is a really big deal even if you aren't a Dexterity-based Bloodrager. I can think right off the top of my head of 2 examples from these spell lists that are prize acquisitions: Snagging Dispel Magic from either spell list is the only practical way I have found so far to get a Bloodrager to be able to cast Dispel Magic (Pathfinder Savant doesn't count, being d6 and 1/2 BAB), and snagging Tactical Adaptation effectively means getting a flex Combat Feat (and if you use it for a situational feat and guess wrong, you only lose out for 1 day instead for the rest of your life, and if you have the Emergency Attunement feat, not even for 1 day). Bladed Dash, Shared Training, Weaponwand, and Lock Gaze from either spell list are also not too shabby as pickup opportunities, although the last of these allows a Save (but see below). Sense Vitals is a good pickup from the Bard spell list. I haven't done an exhaustive search for good pickups, and am probably missing a fair number of other good ones. If you are a Half-Elf, add my favorite cheese of Paragon Surge from the Magus list for another feat of ANY type that you qualify for (including one that you used Tactical Adaptation to snag a prerequisite for), and the buff that it gives you is icing on the cake (particularly if you are Dexterity-based after all, but that isn't an absolute requirement); for weapons-grade cheese add Eldritch Heritage/Improved Eldritch Heritage (Shapechanger) and preferably also Emergency Attunement (which works with Paragon Surge the same way as with Tactical Adaptation).
Note that Adopted Magic is also giving you more total spells known, which is never a bad thing, and you can even swap the adopted spells for other adopted spells of the same level (and presumably same choice of Bard or Magus spell list, although the wording seems a bit fuzzy on that).
In exchange for the above you only have to give up shield proficiency (which may or may not hurt) and the rather small amount of Damage Reduction that Bloodragers normally get, when they are at high enough levels that such small amounts of Damage Reduction are usually only slightly helpful. You also take a sideways swap in class skills (technically gaining 1 more than you lose, but Profession is usually a stinker, so we'll call it even).
Bonus points to this archetype for replacing Blood Sanctuary (which is more or less equivalent to a below-average feat) with Restrained Magic (which is more or less equivalent to a pretty good feat, and better than many of the Bloodline Feats that you get a choice of every 3 levels thereafter).
Controlled Bloodrage isn't as powerful as normal Bloodrage, but it is more flexible (and doesn't boost your Will Save but also doesn't hurt your armor class), so I wouldn't count this as necessarily a downgrade.
I would rate Urban Bloodrager 5/5 if you are Dexterity-based and 4/5 if you aren't, and add 1 to each of those if you are a Half-Elf.
You could also combine Urban Bloodrager with Metamagic Rager for even more versatility; Persistent Spell would be an obvious pick to enable you to make good use of Bard and Magus spells that allow a Save (as many of them do) when they would normally be impaired by your 4/9 spellcasting progression causing you to get them late (of course, this is also helpful for normal Bloodrager spells that allow a Save).
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Just wanted to provide additional recommendation in favor of Urban Bloodrager -- although it is mentioned very briefly in the guide (but not in the example build that uses it), having the Adopted Magic ability to snag Bard and Magus spells is a really big deal even if you aren't a Dexterity-based Bloodrager. I can think right off the top of my head of 2 examples from these spell lists that are prize acquisitions: Snagging Dispel Magic from either spell list is the only practical way I have found so far to get a Bloodrager to be able to cast Dispel Magic (Pathfinder Savant doesn't count, being d6 and 1/2 BAB), and snagging Tactical Adaptation effectively means getting a flex Combat Feat (and if you use it for a situational feat and guess wrong, you only lose out for 1 day instead for the rest of your life, and if you have the Emergency Attunement feat, not even for 1 day). Bladed Dash, Shared Training, Weaponwand, and Lock Gaze from either spell list are also not too shabby as pickup opportunities, although the last of these allows a Save (but see below). Sense Vitals is a good pickup from the Bard spell list. I haven't done an exhaustive search for good pickups, and am probably missing a fair number of other good ones. If you are a Half-Elf, add my favorite cheese of Paragon Surge from the Magus list for another feat of ANY type that you qualify for (including one that you used Tactical Adaptation to snag a prerequisite for), and the buff that it gives you is icing on the cake (particularly if you are Dexterity-based after all, but that isn't an absolute requirement); for weapons-grade cheese add Eldritch Heritage/Improved Eldritch Heritage...
I've spent a lot of time scouring the Bard/Magus spell lists for my Urban Bloodrager, and the spells I've chosen are:
2 Bladed Dash3 Rags to Riches
4 Dance of a Hundred Cuts
4 Freedom of Movement
2 Sense Vitals
Additional spells of interest include:
1 Blade Tutor's Spirit (Not PFS Legal)
1 Feather Step
1 Invigorate
1 Liberating Command
1 Weaponwand
2 Acute Senses
2 Air Step
2 Anticipate Thoughts (pretty nice even if save is successful)
2 Delay Poison
2 Focused Scrutiny*
2 Honeyed Tongue*
2 Raiment of Command*
2 Raven's Flight (more 'cool' than 'useful')
2 Silence
3 Arcane Sight
3 Contingent Action
3 Selective Invisiblity
4 Contingent Scroll
4 Rubberskin
4 Zone of Silence
*My Bloodrager is good at Diplomacy/Perception/Sense Motive, so social encounter buffs are often tempting...
I'm sure there are a lot more, as the Bard in particular has a long spell list and I personally skipped over 'Rags to Riches' several times before noticing that it also increased the existing enhancement bonus on weapons and armor.
The key thing to remember with Bloodragers is that you don't actually get very many spell slots, which means you really want reliable spells: A Sorcerer 10 doesn't really care if her first Dispel Magic attempt doesn't work because she can try again, but for a Bloodrager 10, that first cast is probably her only attempt...
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I think a special mention should be made for a single level dip into Fractured Mind Spiritualist with a Dedication phantom (optionally with the Exiter archetype as well, since you'll not be manifesting your phantom anyway):
- Good Fort and Will saves,
- Skill Focus in both Diplomacy (not normally* a class skill) and Sense Motive (A Spiritualist class skill).
- A couple of Charisma based spells (not great, but still useful),
- Ability to freely use wands of Spiritualist spells (including Cure Light Wounds)
- Benefits of the Iron Will feat while your phantom is in your head,
- +4 bonus on Mind-Affecting Will Saves,
- The ability to shunt the effects of a failed mind-affecting save onto your phantom once per day
*The Urban Bloodrager gets Diplomacy as a class skill, making this dip particularly good for them: My Half-Elf Spiritualist / Bloodrager had the best Diplomacy, Perception, and Sense Motive in our party until recently despite starting with an 8 Wisdom and 12 Charisma (I think the Rogue recently overtook me in the Perception race by taking a feat to boost it).
^Good catch on Abyssal Urban Bloodrager. My take on the easiest way to adjudicate this (not Rules As Written, which have a hole here) would be to have a >=12th level Abyssal Urban Bloodrager add 2 to whichever ability score they boosted with their Bloodrage and subtract 2 from their armor class.
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I am unsure how Abyssal Urban Bloodrager works
Copy-paste:
Abyssal Bloodrage "increases" "the morale bonus to Strength granted by your bloodrage", if there is nothing to increase, this can't to anything.* Likewise, "the penalty to AC" doesn't exist because an Urban Bloodrager "takes no penalties to AC", and thus it can't be changed. The increase does not get applied to any other ability score, because nothing says it does - Controlled Bloodrage is not worded in a way to allow any change to the amount you can distribute with it apart from what the ability grants.
In effect, whenever you apply at least some of the bonus from Controlled Bloodrage to strength, the bloodline increases it by the stated amount, if you put the entire amount to Dex or Con, Abyssal Bloodrage does nothing. You never get any AC penalty.
At 12th to 15th level:
Full bonus to Strength: +8 Str, -0 AC
Full bonus to Dexterity: +6 Dex, -0 AC
Split up: +4 Str, +4 Dex, -0 AC or +6 Str, +2 Dex, -0 AC
*) It like the "—" entry in a spells per day list - it's not a 0, there simply is nothing there for a high ability score to increase.
^Less desirable philosophically, but it works.
(Very belated) Comments on Spells (non-exhaustive):
1st level spells
Biting Words: It isn't great, but if your Dexterity is awful, you might want this as a backup against flying enemies. Although unless you are a Steelblood, you probably shouldn't have awful Dexterity.
Blade Lash: Not as powerful in ultimate effect as True Strike, but a LOT better action economy.
Burning Hands: It isn't great, but it isn't terrible, and you're going to want to have it available in case of Swarms. The problem for you as a Bloodrager is that by the time you get it, you're 1 level away from maxing it out, and you probably won't be getting Intensified Spell unless you are a Metamagic Rager, and even if you do, this will hurt by increasing the casting time, so it's worse on a Bloodrager than on a 6/9 or 9/9 caster or on a 4/9 prepared caster (although Child of Acavna and Amaznen is so bad otherwise as to be not worthwhile for this).
Chill Touch: Bloody-Knuckled Rowdies and a subset of Blood Conduit'ers, this is for you. Arguably even better against Undead than against the living, because it works as a battlefield control spell against them.
Corrosive Touch: Again, the problem for you as a Bloodrager is that by the time you get it, you're 1 level away from maxing it out, and you probably won't be getting Intensified Spell unless you are a Metamagic Rager, and even if you do, this will hurt by increasing the casting time, so it's worse on a Bloodrager than on a 6/9 or 9/9 caster or on a 4/9 prepared caster.
Desperate Weapon: Got to be at least 1001 better ways to arm yourself . . . .
Frostbite: Bloody-Knuckled Rowdies and a subset of Blood Conduit'ers, this is for you. Unfortunately, Rime Spell will be hard for you to use with it, as a front line spontaneous caster using a Touch Attack spell, although you can mitigate that against many Medium and Small opponents by being Enlarged and/or Long Armed (or using the equivalent Bloodline Powers, if you have the Abyssal or Aberrant Bloodline).
Gorum's Armor: This does piddling damage to natural weapon users unless they use a LOT of natural attacks each round -- I wouldn't rate it 4/6, but more like 2/6.
Icicle Dagger: Same difficulty with Rime Spell as Frostbite, but you don't have to be versed in unarmed combat to use it. Gets better at 11th level, when you can throw it without hosing it.
Infernal Healing: If you're going to use it at all, Wand it if you can.
Line in the Sand: If you want the effect of Combat Reflexes but can't afford the feat, this spell gives you a rough approximation for a short time.
Mirror Strike: Unless you are a Metamagic Rager and willing to blow enough Bloodrage to Quicken this, action economy is going to hose your ability to get good use out of this. If you really want to deliver multi-touch attacks effectively, you're going to have to use your full BAB and invest in Cleave/Great Cleave and/or Whirlwind Attack.
Phantom Blood: Nice idea, but the number of Temporary Hit Points granted is too small.
Ray of Enfeeblement: If you are up against a mage and you know they dumped Strength, and you need to take them alive, this could be useful for that.
Shield of Shards: Same problem as Mirror Strike, and not really better at low levels, but at high levels at least it gives you a lot more attacks than Mirror Strike (and the damage per attack also slowly scales up), so it becomes potentially worth the trouble to set this up . . . except for the problem that unlike Mirror Strike, it normally won't deliver your spell Touch Attacks. So you would need to get Spellstrike to get this to work, which means either a 2 level dip in Magus (which delays your already delayed spellcasting progression) or VMC Magus (which isn't bad but will make you hard pressed to have enough feats unless your Bloodline feats constitute an especially good selection, and even then it will be rough going in the low levels).
Shocking Grasp and Snowball: See Corrosive Touch (above) although at least the average and maximum amount of damage is better (and Snowball gives you range, making Rime Spell a bit more attractive).
Stone Throwing: Could be decent as an emergency ranged option if you are also Enlarged often.
Thunderstomp: The way I read this, you can use your primary spellcasting modifier instead of your Strength, but you don't have to, so it should work just fine on a Bloodrager. The 3rd level version is a lot better, but this is a decent start.
Bloodrager spells don't have quite the spice of Paladin and Antipaladin spells, but they're overall not too shabby. Higher level spells coming later.
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Generally speaking, direct damage spells are going to be a 'bad' option for Bloodragers: You get them too late, you get far too few casts per day, their save DCs (if any) will be depressing low when you do use them (due to both low spell level and a low casting stat), and whacking your foe with your weapon is often (but not always) just as good of an option...
As for Thunderstomp, it's just not as good as Blade Lash unless you really want the extra range (a +10 bonus on your trip is huge) and the greater version is just too high level for practical use (you don't get your second baseline 3rd level spell slot until 15th level)...
Chiming in to say that I get a lot of use out of cheetah's sprint on my bloodrager. Especially the line in spell description reminding that the extra speed can apply to jump checks.
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet.
As for Thunderstomp, it's just not as good as Blade Lash unless you really want the extra range (a +10 bonus on your trip is huge)
I also agree with this, but thunderstomp may be an option for bloodrager's that use natural weapons, such those with the Abyssal bloodline. I still wish I'd seen bladelash when selecting spells, though. No reason I couldn't carry around a dagger just for this purpose.
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Nice guide and it is even nicer that people are still contributing to 1st edition. I do think that the Metarager archetype is perhaps a bit better than you give it credit for. Metamagics like Quicken spell and to a lesser extent Empower or Maximise make it extremely tasty.
By 5th level you can quicken 1 spell/day. By 8th-9th level you are looking at perhaps 2 spells/day and this is without investing feats and such in Extra Rage. A quickened spell can radically change the flow of a combat at lower levels helping to finish off a combat instantly, cast to give you a decided advantage or most importantly save your behind. It is a really nice ace in the hole that virtually no other character is able to pull out this early in their career and it helps to make the Bloodrager's admittedly limited spell casting abilities much more valuable.
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I don't think Cheetah's Sprint works quite that well, as it doesn't actually increase your movement by a factor of 10:If you take a charge or run action before the end of your turn, you can move a total distance of up to 10 times your base land speed.Chiming in to say that I get a lot of use out of cheetah's sprint on my bloodrager. Especially the line in spell description reminding that the extra speed can apply to jump checks.
Creatures with a base land speed above 30 feet receive a +4 racial bonus on Acrobatics checks made to jump for every 10 feet of their speed above 30 feet.
[dice=Acrobatics/Long Jump]1d20+148
...
A Charge action normally lets you move up to twice your normal speed, while a Run action normally lets you move four times your normal speed. Since this spell replaces those multipliers with a straight x10, your potential distance moved only increases by x5 (charge) or x2.5 (run) rather than x10 (assuming speed 40, you can run 400' with this spell, which is the same as a speed 100 character would run, so a +24 jump bonus from the spell???)
The more I look at it, the less sense this spell makes (at least, the jumping part): It technically doesn't actually increase your speed any more than the Run feat does so at best it should grant a similar (but much larger) static bonus to your jump check, but that's not how they wrote it...
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Nice guide and it is even nicer that people are still contributing to 1st edition. I do think that the Metarager archetype is perhaps a bit better than you give it credit for. Metamagics like Quicken spell and to a lesser extent Empower or Maximise make it extremely tasty.
By 5th level you can quicken 1 spell/day. By 8th-9th level you are looking at perhaps 2 spells/day and this is without investing feats and such in Extra Rage. A quickened spell can radically change the flow of a combat at lower levels helping to finish off a combat instantly, cast to give you a decided advantage or most importantly save your behind. It is a really nice ace in the hole that virtually no other character is able to pull out this early in their career and it helps to make the Bloodrager's admittedly limited spell casting abilities much more valuable.
10 rounds of rage for a quickened 1st level spell will hurt a lot: I had to spend 15 rounds of rage a little while back to deal with a physical obstacle and that crippled my character for the rest of that mini-dungeon (23 rounds of rage minus 15 rounds for the obstacle minus rounds spent in the previous battle left me hoarding my last few rounds for the eventual boss fight). For all that cost, your quickened spell probably won't actually impact the fight much (your DC's will still suck).
It's an interesting trick, but it's really costly to pull off even once or twice a day...
DISCLAIMER: I put a lot of value on Uncanny Dodge / Improved Uncanny Dodge, but just fitting the metamagic and extra rage feats into a build is kinda rough (your personal mileage may vary, of course).
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It is great that the system allows people to build the same class in such different ways to suit their priorities. I simply find that Quickened spells are generally worth the cost. My high level Bard was happy to cast 5th or 6th level slots to quicken his low level spells so what is a few rounds of rage in comparison. Generally I think that going Human/Half-Orc/Dwarf for your build is best so you can pick an extra round of rage every level as a favored class option. I agree that spending feats on Extra Rage is unappealing.
Some fantastic things you can do with a quickened spell are:
1) Blade Lash - Almost a guaranteed auto-trip as a swift action, followed up by your full attack and the full attacks of your party.
2) Snowball/Shocking Grasp - Finish off the boss before he can attack again all as a swift action. The GM was laughing when you left the big bad at 5 hit points. He is not laughing anymore. :)
3) Mirror Image - Instant defence for when things get rough.
4) See Invisibility/Glitterdust - Now your opponent can be attacked at full strength this round.
5)Haste - Fun for the whole party and you don't lose your turn casting it.
6)Force Hook Charge - Do some force damage and then pretend you are a Magus and full attack after your charge. For extra profit activate your Spell Storing weapon as well.
There are too many other options to list...
Generally speaking, direct damage spells are going to be a 'bad' option for Bloodragers: You get them too late, you get far too few casts per day, their save DCs (if any) will be depressing low when you do use them (due to both low spell level and a low casting stat), and whacking your foe with your weapon is often (but not always) just as good of an option...
As for Thunderstomp, it's just not as good as Blade Lash unless you really want the extra range (a +10 bonus on your trip is huge) and the greater version is just too high level for practical use (you don't get your second baseline 3rd level spell slot until 15th level)...
Good point, although sometimes you really need that extra range. That said, it's only extra range along the ground, and doesn't extend into the air.
The greater version is attractive for its ability to trip multiple targets (again only on the ground), and Blade Lash doesn't have a higher level version that can do this. That said, Line spells are hard to set up so that you can get full use of the area of effect. The ones that come to mind are ambushes (terrain-dependent and Stealth-dependent or Bluff-dependent), enemies stuck in a narrow corridor (terrain-dependent), Metamagic Rager + Quicken Spell (expensive in Bloodrage rounds -- eats more than the Extra Rage feat gives you), and Vanish/Invisibility (not on Bloodrager spell list).
Opinions vary a lot but I feel that the direct damage options of Bloodragers can be alright if used in the right circumstances. You have full bab and a decent dexterity and full caster level so any range touch spell should be pretty good for an enemy out in the open and out of your reach. That is pretty well (except maybe for the use of a quickened spell) the only time that you should be using these types of single target spell anyways. Most of the time you should be hitting them with your big honking sword or hammer.
People complain a lot about the DCs of Bloodrager spells but a 10th level Bloodrager could easily cast a 10D6 Fireball with a Reflex DC of 16 or better. If you are fighting a swarm or can hit multiple opponents then this can be a good use of your turn. Now if you quicken a Fireball first before your regular casting you are pumping up the volume to 20D6 which is even better. You should not try to compete with the wizard or sorcerer but only attempt to pick and choose the right time to cast your limited spells to best effect.
All of these assumptions depends on your character's build, play style and environment of course. I play exclusively PFS so I am expecting a maximum of 12-15 combat rounds maximum per scenario.
That being said I am expecting my Bloodrager if she ever reaches level 10 to have 37 rounds of Bloodrage by level 10 (base (4) + 20 con (5) + level 2-10 (18) + favored class option for Half-Orc(10). So that leaves me roughly 25 rounds of rage to burn at level 10. So she can afford to cast an Empowered Fireball followed by a Quickened Fireball in the same round and still rage all day long if she likes. I am not saying that DD is the best use of quickened spells (maybe a quickened Haste and Mirror Image would be a better use of the rounds) but it sure would be fun to use at least some of the time. :)
These ideas are not exactly new and have been mentioned by others before but I just want to echo the point that casting and meta-magic can be a better option then many people think for the Bloodrager.
The favored class option of extra bloodrage rounds is the same for Human and Dwarf so that is a good selection of races.
In terms of Constitution you can potentially shave 1-2 rounds off my total if you like however that brings up an even more important point than being able to meta-cast or not. Bloodragers NEED a solid constitution because they are typically front-line fighters. I find that many players hate spending their points (or upgrades) on Constitution but it really pays dividends for fighting characters who just need a huge pile of hit points in case things go wrong. A lot of time you can mitigate damage but sometimes things happen and your character just gets hit with a ton of damage. Being super-tough really, really helps your survival.
If you're going to be a Metamagic Rager throwing Fireballs and build to get a decent Save DC, why not cast a Dazing Fireball into a group of enemies as your opener, and then deal with the ones that saved while their comrades are out of action?
Dazing spell is a good suggestion for this build.
There is a balancing act required here to limit the number of meta-magic feats and overall resources going into the spell casting but still be effective and fun. In my mind Quicken spell is really attractive and would be my first pick of feats. Now the real question is how many feats can the Bloodrager's limited (but growing) pool of bloodrage support and when should you invest in these feats? I have my own ideas on the topic but I am curious how other people think.
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Just had a thought: At 7th level, you get access to Flaming Sphere, which requires a Save each time it moves into the space of a creature. Get Persistent Spell and Metarage it on this. Potential for Multiple 2 round Dazes on one casting, which is efficient not only on your spell slots, but also on your Meta-Rage, although it does deprive you of your second Iterative Attack. At 13th level, you can upgrade to Greater Flaming Sphere for multiple 4 round Dazes on one casting, but even though you'll have more rounds of Bloodrage now, you'll probably not use this as much despite more damage, because losing Iteratives will hurt more by that level. If you can also manage to cram Shield Slam (Bull Rush major action economy booster) and its prerequisites into your build, then you could Bull Rush them into the Greater Flaming Sphere instead of having to use a Move Action to direct it onto them. If you can frequently economize on Meta-Rage this way (if you don't run into too many enemies with Fire Immunity or high Fire Resistance), you could even be a Metamagic Rager without taking extra feats to boost your daily Bloodrage Rounds apart from cranking your Constitution as high as your build already does, especially if you also economize on Bloodrage by means of the Rage spell (if you can, get a Wand made by a Bard or Skald).
Note that you can use 1 Meta-Raged Metamagic Feat and 1 Metamagic Rod on each casting, so if you also want to add something like Persistent Spell, you will need to get a Metamagic Rod of it. Depending upon which you use more often, you might actually want Persistent Spell as a feat you have yourself (if you also want to use this on non-damaging spells that have a Save) and Dazing Spell as a Metamagic Rod instead of the other way around. Of course the problem with this is that +3 spell level Metamagic Rods are really expensive even if a party member makes them (especially once you have to climb from Lesser to Intermediate or worse yet Greater(*)), and they require an extra hand to use, so you need a dextrous Familiar.
(*)To avoid having to go to a Greater Metamagic Rod on a Dazing or Persistent 4th level spell to give it the other Metamagic, you would need Magical Lineage ({your choice of spell}).
The above stacking of a Metamagic Rod on Meta-Rage might be too costly and cumbersome to pull off effectively, but it's a juicy thought for a GM wanting to make a Bloodrager Boss (although keep in mind that if the PC party wins, they're going to get the Metamagic Rod as treasure, and that's really juicy treasure).
Hey, this is still going.
Dazing spell makes a lot of otherwise weak stuff viable. Spell sharing burning gaze to a familiar, just using the flaming sphere spell (which has never impressed me), flicking magic missiles around one per target. It's so good that I'm wary of putting too much emphasis on something which might well be spot-nerfed.
I think if you're dropping a pure 10d6 damage fireball at 10th level, Reflex DC 16 as a standard action that's not that useful. Metamagic rager and bloodline mutations are needed to make that worthwhile IMO.
Cheetah's sprint's bonus is a lot simpler to work out when you don't have to figure out odd things like whether to use the charge or run speed, whether having the run feat would decrease the bonus, etc. And... a really big jump check is great for bragging rights, but without D&D 3.5 material (q.v. jumplomancer) it hardly breaks the game.
Dazing with Magic Missiles is probably better than it looks as the Will DC save is going to be quite low for a Bloodrager casting a first level spell. I would rather target Reflex saves at higher levels than Will saves if given a choice. With the Magic Missile spell I would go with Toppling instead. Cheap and effective if used against humanoids. :)
Dazing Flaming Sphere could be fun. It is a two round daze, a multi-round spell (so multiple attempts) and it targets Reflex.
I think that you are setting the bar a little bit too high for a martial class if you are not happy with a naked 10d6 Fireball as a standard action. Sure with Dazing or Quickened (for two 10d6 Fireballs) it is much better but for a pure martial class this is still good. If you can catch multiple opponents (say four or more) you will still do a ton of total damage.
Rods are good but difficult to handle for a martial. There is Aroden's Spellsword or Glove of Storing but both options are expensive. My high level Bard often struggled needing to hold the rod (and then drop it after casting) and never wanted to invest in Quick Draw. Also Full-Round casting time hurts spontaneous casters especially martials that want to close the distance. Prepared casters seem to get all the love with better spell progression and much better magical support with Pearls of Power and more efficient use of Meta-magic rods.
I think that you are setting the bar a little bit too high for a martial class if you are not happy with a naked 10d6 Fireball as a standard action.
Well, it's 10d6 ref half with a low DC. Assuming CR 8 enemies, average reflex is ~8, so with a DC of 16 ~60% chance of making the save, for an effective average damage of 24.5 per target. Without resistance/immunity.
The other issue is that you only have two spells know, and worse yet only have two 3rd level spell slots per day at that point. Is doing mere damage worth the spell known, and is it worth the spell slot? I presume that at this point, either someone else in the party has Haste/BoF, or everyone has Boots of Speed, so I won't draw that comparison, and there's a good chance the attack roll bonus from Heroism is wasted when you routinely fight enemies of lower CR (which should be normal), but the Fireball still draws from the likely only recource you have for flight.
Fireball could be a good option or not depending on the circumstances. I would say that if you are fighting a group of low CR enemies that are not resistant to fire then being able to do 24.5 points of damage (as per your example) to each of them on average is a very good deal as the total damage dealt can be very high. If you are able to target at least four opponents you are looking at almost 100 hit points of damage with a single third level spell. That is pretty good in my book. Also never forget that blowing up enemies with Fireball is fun. Haste might be a better spell pound for pound but it is not as satisfying as yelling boom as the fireball scorches your enemies.
I think that Fireball is worth a spell known but others might disagree. What I like about spells that do damage is that damage stacks. So your fireball damage from last round will add nicely to your full attack routine this round.
I would not worry about flying. There are scrolls and potions for that and it is a more fun (and effective) play style to use your character's spell resources for combat use and save your consumables for utility use when needed.
Nice timing for this, thank you. I'm going to start developing the Bloodrager Codex as soon as I send the Arcanist Codex off to the editors.
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Oh, funny little trick (another reason why fractured mind dip is busted).
A level 4 Bloodrager level 1 Fractured mind has a Base Fort save of +6, meaning he qualifies for Item mastery teleportation mastery, and something like a 1K robe of endless twine satisfies the level 3 conjuration spell for creation requirement.
So yeah, Dimension door, once per day, on a level 5 character. You heard it here first.
I'd have to say 'no' to this trick: I mean, the idea is nice, but no way would I ever wear a twine outfit...
On a more serious note, my understanding is that PFS requires you to meet the Fort prereqs on Item Mastery feats with a single class in order to avoid this sort of multi-classing shenanigans, so your mileage may vary from GM to GM...
A level 4 Bloodrager level 1 Fractured mind has a Base Fort save of +6, meaning he qualifies for Item mastery teleportation mastery
Presuming the GM lets you use multiple classes to qualify, and is so stupid not to use fractional base bonuses.
Not that it's overpowered per se, but it's clearly gaming the system and abusing an oversight.
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And then goes ahead and massively nerfs the saves of many multiclassing characters.
Am I right to assume that you haven't actually read the full text before whining about it? Because the introduction also talks about base save bonuses, calling them "imbalanced". So your complain about the system is that they don't touch on every detail in the first paragraph (while doing so in the second)?
Whatever.
Also, massively nerf? How many classes with the same strong saves do you multiclass? For a single class it's just a -2...
The normal multiclassing rules allow an abuse that goes against the spirit of the rules and encourages multiclassing for numeric bonuses rather than interesting abilities, while simultaneously stifling creativity by punishing multiclassing anything but full BAB classes. I don't see how any of that is good.