Bloodrager guide


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Vast majority of multiclasses at my tables multiclasses are Monks (2-3 strong saves depending on chained or unchained) or Vivisectionis Dips (2 strong saves) followed by oracle dips (1 strong save) and fighter/cavalier dips for proficiencies (1 strong save).

Like, the only multiclassed character I ever played that did not have overlapping strong saves is a oracle+fighter (for which fractional bonuses would be irrelevant).

Bloodrager+Insinuator Overlap (-2 to Fort, nothing in return), Bloodrager + Fractured soul, overlap (-2 to fort, nothing in return), Magus with a dip in inquisitor (-2 to Fort and Will, +1 to AB in return), Fighter/Paladin, overlap (-2 to Fort, nothing in return), Mysterious stranger/scaled fist overlap, (-2 to fort and reflex nothing in return).

I dont know what characters you are playing, but fractional base bonuses would nerf 5 out of 6 of mine, leaving one untouched. Not a representative sample obviously, if I expand to people I know well, some mythic theurges get an extra AB, about which they care exceedingly little, and would pay for that with a -2 to will saves about which they actually do care, A Barb+Oracle into rage prophet would get one extra AB losing nothing and actually get buffed.

Obviously, these character were not build with fractional saves in mind, but in my view, fractional base saves typically hurt currently common multiclasses rather then boost them.
Like, if you want to expand the array of viable multiclassing, then dont nerfbat the ones currently existing.

Although this is getting off topic.


Mightypion wrote:
(for which fractional bonuses would be irrelevant).

You still add the +0.5 from overlapping strong saves, and +0.33 for weak saves.

Mightypion wrote:
Bloodrager + Fractured soul, overlap (-2 to fort, nothing in return),

Rather than +2/0/+2, you'd get the following:

+.5 Fort, +.33 Reflex, and +2.5 Will.

So you'd get the exact same Fort and Ref progression as if you hadn't multiclassed, and a noticeable increase in will. I definitely favor the fractional system over the Strong-Save-Stacking that normal multiclassing allows.


Mightypion wrote:
Bloodrager + Fractured soul, overlap (-2 to fort, nothing in return)

It's only -1 to Fort half the levels, actually. "nothing in return" is also false, as with FBB the multiclass has +1 Ref and Will every third level.

For example, at 6th level, presuming BR 5/Spi 1, the saves with the normal system are [6|1|3], with fractional base bonuses they're [5|2|4].

The three saves aren't equal, but the average save total across lvl 1-20 for a Bloodrager with a single dip into Spiritualist is a mere 0.8 lower when using FBB, that's a far cry from "-2, nothing in return". Note that FBB decreases your strong(est) and increases your weak(er) saves, thus making your character more rounded most levels.

Mightypion wrote:
fractional base saves typically hurt currently common multiclasses rather then boost them

Ever thought that maybe those multiclasses are common, and others are uncommon, because of the issues FBB fixes? Of course multiclasses where you end up with a BAB below that of a 15/20 class are unpopular. Of course getting a free boost to saves makes multiclasses where you stack up strong saves more popular.

Also, would you actually not have used those multiclasses under FBB?


Hmm interesting question, really getting of topic though.
I think I would not have used the only actually creative multiclass, Magus/Inquisitor under FBB, as she would be 1 behind on both strong/important saves, with the reflex save of that particular build being fairly high because of high dex.

The Spiritualist/Insinuator Dips were chiefly to fix weak will saves, which they still do, and to turn Fort saves into "nice try GM" territory, which he insinuator still does but the spiritualist no longer.

Care to introduce me to build that need Fractional Saves to work?
They definitly exist, but I am not familar enough with that system to assess which these are.


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^Not Fractional Saves, but Fractional Base Attack Bonus: Anything that actually wants to be able to hit stuff and needs to have multiple 1/2 BAB and/or 3/4 BAB classes (including prestige classes) is majorly hurt without this, and this could hurt more than the non-Fractional Saves help (and they only help with base classes, not prestige classes, which never have a +2 starting bonus for their Good Saves).


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Mightypion wrote:
Care to introduce me to build that need Fractional Saves to work?

Define "need". The system intentionally doesn't change much, so I wouldn't say any somewhat common build needs it, but for example, a Wizard 3/Rogue 1 going into Arcane Trickster via Accomplished Sneak Attacker gets +1 BAB virtually every level from using FBB. Most builds that multiclass more than one class with below-full BAB profits at elast soem levels, for example a single dio into a medium BAB class from another such class results in +1 BAB three out of every four levels when using FBB, greatly reducing the cost of doing so. Of course builds made to profit from the default system lose something, but FBB make for exampel that Fractured Mind dip that you love much more attactive for e.g. a Rogue, a multiclass one wouldn't really consider under the default system due to the accuracy issues.

Remember that while there is no difference between a higher base save bonus and bonuses form other sources, BAB is worth more than any other attack roll bonus of the same power, due to iterative attacks and Power Attack multiplier.

Edit: No build needs the save part of FBB, of course, just like no Barbarian build needs the nerfes to rage cycling from unchained - but as a GM, I still want that on my table, just like I want FBB. The system makes multiclassing smoother while cutting down on builds that are made to abuse a wonky game mechanic.


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(Even more belated) Comments on Spells (non-exhaustive):

1st level spells

Ablative Barrier -- I'll agree with the guide, except that I can't think of what SBDS are (not found elsewhere in the guide). Gets a lot better if you also have an ability that gives DR or immunity against non-lethal damage; or if an ally has such an ability (like you have an Invulnerable Rager Barbarian in your party), you can cast this on them.

Acid Arrow -- since this gives ongoing damage, its purpose is to mess up enemy casters -- they had better be good at concentration or have enough Acid Resistance or Immunity to block the effect, because they don't get a Save or even Spell Resistance.

Animal Aspect -- all of the animal aspects are potentially useful in the right situations, but the one likely to get most use is Raptor, because being fast helps you get into position and helps you catch things that are trying to get away, especially if you are a Dwarf who needs some speed help anyway; honorable mention goes to Monkey for giving you Throw Anything temporarily for use in an emergency. The Greater version of this gives a modest upgrade to each of the animal aspects, but you may or may not find these worthwhile except in specialized situations, although at least unlike most casters, it only bumps the spell up one level.

Arcane Disruption -- the idea was nice, but the Concentration DC is way too low, and most casters have a good chance to make the Will Save anyway, so use Acid Arrow (see above) instead, even though it isn't as broadly encompassing in what it tries to impair.

Blindness/Deafness -- not too shabby a debuff as long as you cast it on the right targets (you need to choose a target that has a poor Fortitude Save, which means many casters, but not warrior types, and usually not hybrid types).

Boiling Blood -- if you are an Orc or at least Half-Orc, this is a buff instead of an attack, but the Morale Bonus doesn't stack with your Bloodrage (also Morale Bonuses), so this would be mainly a way to save on rounds of Bloodrage, but if you're going to use it for this, you might want to ditch it after you can cast Rage (or at least after you have enough spell slots to cast it a few times), which is 3rd level but actually gives you cheapo Rage benefits (Boiling Blood gives you just +2 Strength, whereas Rage gives you +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, +1 Will Saves, and -2 AC; both are all Morale Bonuses except for the AC penalty). Although since Rage makes you unable to perform tasks that you can't perform in Bloodrage, on second thought Boiling Blood might be a keeper for when you need the +2 Strength but need to be able to perform tasks forbidden by Bloodrage and/or to keep all your AC. Note that if you DON'T have a magic item (Enhancement) bonus all the way up to what Bull's Strength can give you, Bull's Strength is the better spell (1 minute per level instead of effectively 1 round/level), but they do stack.

Certain Grip -- the need for immunity to being disarmed won't come up much, but if it does, you will need this really badly (a certain lieutenant boss villain a bit of the way into Skull and Shackles comes to mind).

Delay Pain -- situational, but it's a hard counter to an enemy's use of Mindshock.

Force Sword and Instant Weapon -- Force Sword is more powerful (gets an Enhancement Bonus), but Instant Weapon is more versatile (in case you need a polearm or something); you probably shouldn't get both. Note that unlike Force Sword, Instant Weapon DOESN'T have the text about being potentially dispelled if you use it to attack a creature that has Spell Resistance; however, such creatures are likely to have Damage Reduction as well, which will make Instant Weapon do less damage unless you have some ability that lets you overcome Damage Reduction without depending upon weapon enchantments.

Glitterdust -- merits an increase in rating to at least 4 of 5 (would be at least 5 of 5 if not for your delayed spellcasting progression and likely low Save DC for the bllnding effect). It just about hard-counters invisibility on anything you cast it on (No Save, No Spell Resistance) and gives a -40 on Stealth checks to covered targets, not just for you but for your whole party -- just be careful of placement when using at close range. Of course, if you have a 6/9 or 9/9 caster, they'll be better at this, but if you don't, it's good to have the option to do it yourself.

Heckle -- agree about its uselessness. And since it's not also on the Alchemist extract list, it isn't even good for Heckle and Jekyll.

Lightning Conductor -- this could be of some use if you commonly duel against Shocking Grasp 1-trick pony Magi; Resist Energy is more generally applicable, but Lightning Conductor does come out ahead if you are up against Electricity users.

Mindshock -- one of the rare offensive buffs that a Magus can't get.

Molten Orb, but does have a bit of use in making briefly ongoing No Save damage against multiple creatures if you catch them close enough to each other, useful if they are spellcasters. Although the usefulness of this is hurt by your delayed spellcasting progression -- by the time you get this, they'll have a decent chance of making their Concentration checks against the wimpy damage.

Perfect Placement -- of some use for buffing your party against opponents that have Combat Reflexes or the equivalent.

Pouncing Fury -- if you're going to use this, make sure you have not only claws, but also Combat Reflexes and good Dexterity so that you can get each second Attack of Opportunity.

Quick Change -- unless you somehow have Sneak Attack (and Sense Vitals isn't on your spell list) as well as Shapechange, this won't be very useful.

Quick Throwing -- might be of some use for a party of knife-throwers to save everybody a feat, but you really need to have a Hunter cast this (not a Bloodrager) to get it online soon enough to be useful for that purpose, and even then, the short duration hurts.

See Invisibility -- point taken about needing Perception to find invisible enemies, but Glitterdust is good enough that this is a rare instance in which you might actually want both spells if you are up against invisible enemies often and don't have a 9/9 or 6/9 caster to handle this -- prebuff with See Invisibility (it lasts long enough), and then Glitterdust them so that everybody in your party can see them (and they have a chance of not being able to see you). Note that See Invisibility is self-buff-only.

Shadow Claws -- if you need to get claws for Pouncing Fury and you don't have any from your Bloodline Powers or an Eldritch Heritage, this is a pretty good way to get them as long as you have a chance to pre-buff shortly before a fight.

Slipstream -- if you're going to be swimming a lot, this is not too shabby; Animal Aspect is more versatile (use Otter to get a Swim speed, but also has several other options), but this lasts longer. On the other hand, they do synergize, so if you're going to be swimming a lot, you might actually want both. They even synergize a bit on land (use Animal Aspect Raptor) -- not well enough that you would want to spend precious Spells Known on both if you AREN'T swimming a lot, but if you are, might as well also make use of the combination when you're on land.

Symbol of Exsanguination -- is ANY Symbol spell ever any good for any spellcaster who doesn't somehow get the ability to ignore the material component?

Touch of Idiocy -- Touch Attack, No Save (only Spell Resistance) -- seems like you could apply this fairly reliably, so go ahead and debuff away.

Shadow Lodge

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Ablative Barrier - SBDS is Sudden Barbarian Death Syndrome (when a raging character is just knocked unconscious and the sudden loss of their Constitution buff kills them outright). One other thing to keep in mind about this spell is that the duration is long enough that you can cast an extended version (via a cheap metamagic rod) before you go to sleep and keep the buff through most of the next day (or at least until you hit the HP cap).

Glitterdust - This is a very good spell to have on a scroll (or two): It won't last as long, but hopefully that won't matter much and you don't have to keep a 2nd level spell slot open for its potential use (you don't even need to have 2nd level spells yet).

See Invisibility - Also good to have on a scroll at lower levels, though you probably should add it to your actual spells known at some point to take advantage of its nice long 'entire dungeon crawl' duration.

Slipstream - As a long term speed buff that isn't enhancement, I like this spell a lot: It's one of the spells Taja knows, but she hasn't actually cast it yet (2nd level spell slots are still a rare and precious resource). The entire 'downhill vs uphill' portion does confuse me a bit as to how it is supposed to work in actual play, and the fact that there is an actual wave of water pushing you along is kinda weird...

Shadow Lodge

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A few remarks on the guide's 2nd level spells:

Stone Discus - Not quite as bad as the guide claims: It does physical damage instead of energy so it uses normal AC instead of touch AC, but your BAB is good and the fact that it ignores SR, energy resistances, and most physical DRs keeps it from sucking too horribly.

Wild Instinct - The big bonus on this spell is the "you don’t take a penalty on Perception checks while sleeping, and can choose to wake if you notice a threat while asleep." part, which makes you harder to murder in your sleep...


I should have mentioned that some of the 1st and 2nd level Bloodrager spells are good to have on Wands (after 2nd level spells, this starts becoming too expensive, so stick with Scrolls, or Potions in a few cases). So if you can't fit in all the stuff you want (you probably can't), get Wands for the more frequently used stuff you can't fit in and Scrolls for the less frequently used stuff but situationally really necessary stuff you can't fit in. Of course, when low caster level especially hurts (and high caster level makes the Wand/Scroll a lot more expensive and harder to get), those are the ones you want to have as Spells Known if you can (unfortunately, this includes a lot of buffs you depend upon caster level for the duration of, like See Invisibility).


I really like your guide, especially the dice. It's a nice change of pace from all the colors.

It looks like the only thing you rated as a full six is the Paragon Surge spell. Did you add a six-sided dice icon with the intention of only using it once?

J


^My understanding is that full six is the equivalent of purple-pink in the color-coded rating system, meaning overpowered, which means that it should come up very rarely if the designers did their job (almost) right.


Yes, that's my understanding too. I just wanted to check in about it.

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