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You still need the feats Battle Medicine (in combat) and Continual Recovery (out of combat) to be an effective healer. Continual Recovery requires Expert in Medicine. So I'm not sure you have saved much. Yes your INT is going to be higher and you don't have to progress further in Medicine.
I haven't taken neither of these feats. Battle Medicine is not very useful as I have Elixirs of Life. For out of combat healing, PFS gives quite some time, I've been surprised to be sometimes the party medic despite my lack of Continual Recovery. But overall, I don't care of being an out of combat healer. I've found that a lot of players love to increase Medicine and there's rarely a party without an out of combat healer.
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I've had a lot of trouble getting people to accept having their weapons poisoned.Curious on why? Moral qualms? Or do people just not want free bonuses to their weapon attack results?
What I know for sure: *crickets*
What I suspect: A combination of moral qualms (understandable IMO) and "every character is an island" mentality (not understandable IMO).
My alchemist makes a greater darkvision elixir to get darkvision for the day - since they're made in batches of two, I literally offer free darkvision to one character. Every day. Every scenario. There's still reluctance to accept. Like, people tell me to "save" it. I tell them that 1. I can't, and that 2. I've already made it. And sometimes people still decline!
Now, I make my offer, and don't follow up with questions, because my eyeballs might roll out of my head if I hear the answer.
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I got lots of issues with poison, too (that can be found in the depths of these boards). Ultimately, I've managed to convince my group of players. I just don't use my Alchemist outside this group of players, as having to "sell" my character's abilities is tiresome and hardly fit into the PFS format.
For the reasons people refuse, there's a bit of moral qualms, but I think the underlying reason is that people don't want to accept anything they don't know. So when you come up with a new buff, you have to take the time explaining them how it affects their character. The Alchemist having lots of buffs, most of them being new to PF2, it makes things hard when you end up in a group of complete stranger.
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I've been playing Alchemists in PFS for a while now. My Bomber is 9th level and semi-retired while I wait for more L7-10 Scenarios. My Mutagenist recently hit 6th level.
I've had a lot of fun playing both.
One of the things I've found is that the math is largely meaningless at the table. I haven't hit any of the "-2" levels yet (13,14,16,20) but I've played through three "-1" levels a couple of times now (2,5,6). (My Bomber uses Quicksilver constantly, and the Mutagenist has gone with Bestial for combat.)
Over time, I'm sure that if you did a statistical analysis the damage output will be less based on hits alone. I don't notice it at the table. In play, -1 simply doesn't mean that much in my experience. Whether or not the dice are kind (either physical or a dice roller) means a lot more.
On the flip side... I know that, statistically, Bombs can keep up with damage output over time. I'm sure that as time goes on though, it'll get annoying seeing even Champions rolling 2-3 dice more than I do on every successful Strike. Still, I have enough fun with Bombs that I think I'll be ok. :)
I take a similar approach to buffs as Watery Soup. I make the offer at the start of the session. Sometimes folks will ask for more info... I give it to them. Foundry has been great that way because it's easy to get the item info into the chat.
I don't do poisons, personally. Somewhat irrational prejudice against them. (I mean, really, what's the difference between poison killing the enemy then two feet of steel or some kind of lightning? None. Still got that prejudice though.)
I still see some interest in Mutagens though. Drakeheart is always a big hit with spellcasters and low-level Monks. Played a 3-6 Scenario the other day where I supplied the 3rd Level Monk with Drakeheart. Ended up with the best AC in the party, even with a couple of Level 6s like my guy.
Actually played item dispenser for a Combat for the first time (out of a good number of play sessions across both Bomber & Mutagenist) in that same Scenario. We had a chance to prepare. We knew it was one final big fight. We knew where. We got to decide when. Man, is that a rare circumstance.
So, I went all in on Advanced Alchemy and buffed everybody. Gave everybody a Bravo's Brew. A melee guy took Juggernaut, the Monk was on Drakeheart, my guy his usual Bestial. Four of us were on Mistform Elixers, and actually lucked out on the flat check twice (pretty good for needing a 1-4 during a single fight.)
My guy, besides Bestial, Mistform & Bravo's Brew was using Antidote and Cheetah's Elixer.
Not my usual playstyle, but it was fun, I gotta admit. And the combat went well. As previously mentioned, Mistform came through a couple of times. My guy got in some key hits, and also got some key Trips on the Huge guy (finally took Titan Wrestler at 6th.) Bestial + Str 18 + Expert Athletics = fun. :-D
If you have the patience to work out all the items and what they can do for you (& others, sometimes) I highly recommend Alchemists. There's always something you can contribute. I really enjoy that.
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Everytime I see this thread title I briefly wonder which Paizo developer wrote it and why it took them so long.
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I've been playing Alchemists in PFS for a while now. My Bomber is 9th level and semi-retired while I wait for more L7-10 Scenarios. My Mutagenist recently hit 6th level.
I've had a lot of fun playing both.
One of the things I've found is that the math is largely meaningless at the table. I haven't hit any of the "-2" levels yet (13,14,16,20) but I've played through three "-1" levels a couple of times now (2,5,6). (My Bomber uses Quicksilver constantly, and the Mutagenist has gone with Bestial for combat.)
Over time, I'm sure that if you did a statistical analysis the damage output will be less based on hits alone. I don't notice it at the table. In play, -1 simply doesn't mean that much in my experience. Whether or not the dice are kind (either physical or a dice roller) means a lot more.
On the flip side... I know that, statistically, Bombs can keep up with damage output over time. I'm sure that as time goes on though, it'll get annoying seeing even Champions rolling 2-3 dice more than I do on every successful Strike. Still, I have enough fun with Bombs that I think I'll be ok. :)
I take a similar approach to buffs as Watery Soup. I make the offer at the start of the session. Sometimes folks will ask for more info... I give it to them. Foundry has been great that way because it's easy to get the item info into the chat.
I don't do poisons, personally. Somewhat irrational prejudice against them. (I mean, really, what's the difference between poison killing the enemy then two feet of steel or some kind of lightning? None. Still got that prejudice though.)
I still see some interest in Mutagens though. Drakeheart is always a big hit with spellcasters and low-level Monks. Played a 3-6 Scenario the other day where I supplied the 3rd Level Monk with Drakeheart. Ended up with the best AC in the party, even with a couple of Level 6s like my guy.
Actually played item dispenser for a Combat for the first time (out of a good number of play sessions across both Bomber & Mutagenist) in that...
This person here is playing the alchemist right. The problem is you need their level of system mastery to really make it sing, which isn't true for any other core class.
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This person here is playing the alchemist right. The problem is you need their level of system mastery to really make it sing, which isn't true for any other core class.
While I get why Paizo wanted Alchemist in the 2E Core Rules, the class as implemented in 2E probably belongs in the APG rather than Core, and that’s putting aside any improvement to the implementation that might have come from the additional knowledge and understanding the developers had accumulated by the time they wrote the APG.
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This person here is playing the alchemist right. The problem is you need their level of system mastery to really make it sing, which isn't true for any other core class.
I don't really agree. The problem is that there's such a blatantly "correct" way to play the class and so many traps/misleading ideas built into its chassis.
It's not particularly hard or requires all that much system mastery to play a decent support alchemist, but the class does a poor job supporting a lot of its other concepts in a way most PF2 classes don't do (nonwithstanding stuff like eldritch nails which is similar).
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The problem is that there's such a blatantly "correct" way to play the class and so many traps/misleading ideas built into its chassis.
The class has a useful support role, and it can be fun to role play. The problem is it doesn't have anything important which it can do directly itself. Its good at splash damage, but that is just not that significant, and it runs out of those too fast. It can give you a net +1 to lots of item bonuses, but other classes can do similar things with a spell or cantrip. You could always just buy alchemical items anyway for key encounters. It can be flexible but so can many other classes.
I have a couple of friends who enjoy playing alchemists, have tried it and flat out refuse to play it anymore. Its just too ineffective and too passive.
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The problem is that there's such a blatantly "correct" way to play the class and so many traps/misleading ideas built into its chassis.The class has a useful support role, and it can be fun to role play. The problem is it doesn't have anything important which it can do directly itself. Its good at splash damage, but that is just not that significant, and it runs out of those too fast. It can give you a net +1 to lots of item bonuses, but other classes can do similar things with a spell or cantrip. You could always just buy alchemical items anyway for key encounters. It can be flexible but so can many other classes.
I have a couple of friends who enjoy playing alchemists, have tried it and flat out refuse to play it anymore. Its just too ineffective and too passive.
I guess they enjoyed playing PF1 Alchemist, which is a pretty different class.
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This is exactly the type of discourse that I was hoping for! I am appreciative of all your responses.
I am excited to take my Grippli Alchemist (wizard) for a fun run in SoT!
Now, we just need to not TPK in Book 6 of AoA firstly. Not looking good against big running combat in Chapter 1.....
Playing tonight, so stay tuned....
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I don't really agree. The problem is that there's such a blatantly "correct" way to play the class and so many traps/misleading ideas built into its chassis.
The class has a useful support role, and it can be fun to role play. The problem is it doesn't have anything important which it can do directly itself.
Respectfully, I disagree, on both points.
I don't play a support role. Handing out items to everybody before a fight? I've done that exactly once... and I've played my Alchemists a total of forty-eight times.
The rest of the time? My Bomber is throwing Bombs. My Mutagenist is biting people, or clawing them, or punching them in the face. (I took Martial Artist Dedication with the Mutagenist. It's been a really nice fit.)
I've felt effective nearly every single time I've played... and I can state with confidence that the other folks at the table felt so as well. (The one time I felt ineffective we were up against a L+ boss that a) had construct armor and b) was immune to electricity. Couldn't get a crit to save my life... and this was at L8, when mathematically my guy gets a crit more often than anyone of that level not called Fighter or Gunslinger. Simply put, the DR was *not* co-operating during that fight.)
Splash damage really does creep up on folks, especially as it is the absolute best way of hitting a weakness. Persistent damage can be a genuine joy. Bombers do both very, very well.
Persistent plus Weakness is the absolute best. Nothing like hitting a Weakness 10 Good BBEG with a Sticky Alignment Ampoule and then watching the timer keep ticking. (In case you were wondering, that one Bomb did d4+14 on the hit, and then 14 points at the end of each of the BBEG's turns... and the GM failed the flat check for pretty much the entire rest of the fight.)
As for the Mutagenist... well, he generally sticks to the tried and true tactics that everybody uses. He Demoralizes when he can. Trip is great (Bestial is a nice fit with Athletics maneuvers.) He has all the Runes he can fit right now (I took Ghost Touch just because I like Ghost Touch.) He has a Sturdy Shield, and Shield Block. He took Bloody Blows, and that's gone off more than I ever expected (again, a very good fit with Bestial.) And he can boost himself up in all kinds of little ways when he needs to or wants to. I've been pleasantly surprised... I didn't think I'd enjoy playing him this much, but he's almost as much fun as my Bomber.
I know I'm never going to take the DPR crown. If a GM ever gives me a crowd scene the spellcasters will probably get to them first. :-D But I certainly do enough to contribute in a very meaningful fashion, and I have a lot of fun along the way.
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So, after 10 rounds of combat, which only really barely bothered the bad, we retreated underneath to the Ring to regroup and cry to each other!
PF2e is so awesome...lol.
I've felt effective nearly every single time I've played... and I can state with confidence that the other folks at the table felt so as well. (The one time I felt ineffective we were up against a L+ boss that a) had construct armor and b) was immune to electricity. Couldn't get a crit to save my life... and this was at L8, when mathematically my guy gets a crit more often than anyone of that level not called Fighter or Gunslinger. Simply put, the DR was *not* co-operating during that fight.)
What was giving you higher crit odds than other martials? As far as I'm aware, at level 8 you'd have the same proficiency rank and ability modifier as a more conventional martial class that gets Expert at 5th and starts with an 18 in Strength or Dexterity, but nothing that puts you over and above that number.
Edit: Nevermind, forgot that Bestial Mutagen scales its item bonus +1 above what bombs get.
So does quicksilver mutagen which might have been what you meant here.
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Respectfully, I disagree, on both points.
I don't play a support role. Handing out items to everybody before a fight? I've done that exactly once... and I've played my Alchemists a total of forty-eight times.
The rest of the time? My Bomber is throwing Bombs. My Mutagenist is biting people, or clawing them, or punching them in the face. (I took Martial Artist Dedication with the Mutagenist. It's been a really nice fit.)
This is probably the weakest thing you could possibly do with the alchemist. At range, you'll never match a real martial at single target damage, pitiful splash damage is worthless considering that full caster AoE damage is bad and needing to hit a weakness to be worthwhile means you aren't worthwhile against the vast majority of enemies. Beastial mutagen is a joke given your statline, proficiency tracks and the ref+AC penalty. A competent enemy group should have long since managed to trip and then execute you or a boss should have ripped you to pieces with crits.
I've felt effective nearly every single time I've played... and I can state with confidence that the other folks at the table felt so as well. (The one time I felt ineffective we were up against a L+ boss that a) had construct armor and b) was immune to electricity. Couldn't get a crit to save my life... and this was at L8, when mathematically my guy gets a crit more often than anyone of that level not called Fighter or Gunslinger. Simply put, the DR was *not* co-operating during that fight.)
The thing about pf2e critical chance is that it basically doesn't mean anything against L+ opponents. Nat 20 is probably your only critical hit even for Fighters. If you need to critical to deal damage, you probably shouldn't be trying to deal damage. It's too bad alchemist doesn't have anything like sneak attack or even property runes that would enable some chip damage in this situation. Of course, if you aren't hitting the hardness threshold you probably aren't doing much damage against regular enemies either, but at least you have decent rider effects.
Splash damage really does creep up on folks, especially as it is the absolute best way of hitting a weakness. Persistent damage can be a genuine joy. Bombers do both very, very well.
Persistent plus Weakness is the absolute best. Nothing like hitting a Weakness 10 Good BBEG with a Sticky Alignment Ampoule and then watching the timer keep ticking. (In case you were wondering, that one Bomb did d4+14 on the hit, and then 14 points at the end of each of the BBEG's turns... and the GM failed the flat check for pretty much the entire rest of the fight.)
Splash damage really isn't that good. It's simply not enough to be meaningful over the usual duration of combats. Maybe against a gigantic horde of L- creatures with weaknesses where you're catching 6 or 7 at a time but that's so rare a situation that I'm not sure it matters. On that note, I'll reiterate that if you need weaknesses to exploit to be effective, that means you aren't effective in the vast majority of encounters. In this case, you also need access to uncommon gear which is a quick way to simply not have access to something. Society aside, if there's any chance of the item you need to be useful not being available, you should assume you don't have access to it.
As for the Mutagenist... well, he generally sticks to the tried and true tactics that everybody uses. He Demoralizes when he can. Trip is great (Bestial is a nice fit with Athletics maneuvers.) He has all the Runes he can fit right now (I took Ghost Touch just because I like Ghost Touch.) He has a Sturdy Shield, and Shield Block. He took Bloody Blows, and that's gone off more than I ever expected (again, a very good fit with Bestial.) And he can boost himself up in all kinds of little ways when he needs to or wants to.
So doing everything a regular martial would be doing but with far lower EHP, lower damage and none of the combat feats of a martial.
All of this is aside from the alchemist peaking at levels 7-9 before getting outscaled in stats and proficiency by martials, and outscaled in useful magic effects by casters. I'm not saying the alchemist can't contribute, but I will say nothing they contribute is unique, that can't be done better by somebody else, or that outvalues what can be done by somebody else doing their normal thing while taking the alchemist dedication feats for low-mid level items.
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This is probably the weakest thing you could possibly do with the alchemist. At range, you'll never match a real martial at single target damage, pitiful splash damage is worthless considering that full caster AoE damage is bad …
You don’t really know what you’re talking about, do you?
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This is probably the weakest thing you could possibly do with the alchemist.
What's funny is that all those who consider Alchemist fine play it that way and those who say that Alchemist is bad call it an item dispenser...
The thing is: The Alchemist is both of these things at the same time. The "strongest thing you could possibly do with the Alchemist" is to exploit all of its abilities, not to limit yourself to one.
Toxicologist is tempting because of both the 1 Action to apply and the DCs equaling class DC.
Bomber for negating splash when needed, which will come up often.
Too bad you couldn't have both.
Question: 1 dose = 1 arrow?
I haven't found anything that says ammo is more than 1 arrow per dose of poison.
This is probably the weakest thing you could possibly do with the alchemist. At range, you'll never match a real martial at single target damage, pitiful splash damage is worthless considering that full caster AoE damage is bad …You don’t really know what you’re talking about, do you?
Are you unaware of how enemy hp scaling relates to caster AoE damage scaling? Suffice to say that outside of extreme+ mook swarms that also have weak reflex saves AoE damage is possibly the weakest option available to you. Even in those combats, battlefield control is the better use of spell slots.
What's funny is that all those who consider Alchemist fine play it that way and those who say that Alchemist is bad call it an item dispenser...
The thing is: The Alchemist is both of these things at the same time. The "strongest thing you could possibly do with the Alchemist" is to exploit all of its abilities, not to limit yourself to one.
Note how he describes his playstyle. He's not handing out buffs and such, he's playing the "selfish attacker" style alchemist which winds up being a bad martial. Though I don't find the item dispenser niche to be particularly useful either compared to spells as the game progresses.
Would it be cheating to go Investigator (alchemist dedication)?
The symmetry is amazing!
EDIT: I need to get my lol to work, but take a good look at Investigator chassis then add Alchemist feats....
Me? I'm going to trust the player who was using it in the field and found it effective in a practical way over the white-room theorist insisting that on paper it's too weak to use.
Those are excellent points.
I am toying with using the Investigator (alchemical studies) along with Alchemist dedication and the free Wizard dedication at 2nd.
I am mostly going for poisons and bombs, although admittedly the progression will obviously be behind. I am thinking with the Investigator class abilities combined with poison and bomb usage (looking at you DaS), add in earlier (and higher) proficiency and weapon specialization than Alchemist; it will even out a bit. May even be better actually.
At 6th he will have access to level 3 items and by then will be Expert going on Master. Efficient, I believe.
The Alchemist chassis just seems a bit behind on proficiencies all over the board compared to other mid-martial classes. Investigator chassis easily makes that up.
Alchemist feats are absolutely amazing! If you smashed the two together: perfecto!
EDIT: I am enjoying all theses Alchemist Threads too!
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This is for SoT. Every pc receives free wizard or druid archetype that "levels" independent of any restrictions.
Investigator will give Int/day on the spot elixirs and tools. Sweet!
Alchemist dedication grants level per day reagents. Example: use it for 2 of same poison and 2 of same bomb at 2nd. Prepared at daily preparations. Not too bad having 4 and 4 at 2nd actually. How many spellslots does the smarty pants wizard have at 2nd...hehe.
Assuming Int boost every time will at 10th grant 5/day elixirs/tools and 10 daily reagents which effectively nets 20 poisons/bombs.
Not too shabby in my opinion. Especially since he will also have the free wizard archetype feats granting some yummy spells.
Now that is just the easily seen stuff. Also add Alchemist feats to him. Quick bomber at 4th. Just gets more interesting after that...lol.
Investigator proficiency will really shine, combined with DaS allowing you not to waste your precious consumables.
Please don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the Alchemist concept. As stated in my OP, I had/have 5 PF1e Alchys!
From Alchemist dedication:
You gain the alchemist’s infused reagents class feature, gaining a number of reagents each day equal to your level. You also gain the Alchemical Crafting feat and four additional formulas for 1st-level alchemical items, as well as the ability to create free items during your daily preparations. Your advanced alchemy level is 1 and doesn’t increase on its own.
Did you mean this?