Usually when this topic is broached it will devolve into simply creating the highest casting stat (INT/WIS/CHA) possible but I would like to see what happens when we stay clear of that.
There are lots of races, feats, and archetypes/class features that allow you to boost the DC save of your spell. What I want to know is what is the highest you can go, and for argument sake, let's set the starting casting stat at 18 (after racials) for control.
Races
- Gnomes - Gnome Magic: +1 Illusion
- Wayang - Shadow Magic: +1 Shadow
- Kitsune - Sorcerer Favored Class Bonus
Feats
- Spell Focus (& Greater) - Obviously
- Eldritch Heritage: Arcane - School Power
- Deific Obedience - Mahathallah: +2 Illusion
Class Features
- Invoker Witch - Bonus to Patron Spells
- Arcane Sorcerer
- Arcanist/Exploiter Wizard - Potent Magic
What else is there?
What is the best way to stack all of these? What is the highest DC bonus you can make?
Champion of Darkness Drow +2 [evil] spells
Seducer Drow +1 Enchantment spells
Hag Magic Changeling +1 Enchantment spells
Maleficium (Damnation feat) +1 or +2 [evil] spells
Varisian Tattoo (feat) +1 to whatever you have Spell Focus in.
Auspicious Birth (feat) Sun Sign: Your spells and spell-like abilities with the light descriptor are treated as if they were 1 spell level higher for determining spell save DCs. The level of spell with the darkness descriptor that they can counter or dispel also increases by 1.
Pretty sure there is an ioun stone, too... I know there is one for +1 Caster Level.
Varisian Tattoo (feat) +1 to whatever you have Spell Focus in.
Varisian Tattoo increase Caster Level, not DC
You are correct. My bad.
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If we're going to come up with a final answer, we need a few more guidelines:
-How many total class levels (or can we make a Kitsune Sorcerer 20/Invoker Witch 20/Third Class 20/etc.)?
-What's the total point-buy (because of the ability I am about to mention)?
-Can we use consumables or are we going for something repeatable?
-How about artifacts?
-Is it OK if we use a bunch of feats/traits that only apply to one chosen spell, so that's the only one with a high DC?
I'll nominate the class ability I always mention when people ask about high DCs:
Ragecaster (Rage Prophet): At 7th level, he adds his Constitution bonus to the save DC of any spells cast while raging.
Feat:
Spell Perfection: Double all set numerical bonuses granted by feats (such as spell focus) for a single chosen spell.
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There is this ability:
2: Destructive Spell (Su) By calling on the rage of the Rough Beast, you gain the ability to deal terrific damage with your spells. You can use this ability when casting a spell that deals hit point damage and has a casting time of 1 standard action or less. You can choose to cast the spell as a full-round action to gain a +4 bonus to its save DC. In addition, you treat all 1s rolled on your damage dice for the spell as 2s instead.
It is the second evangalist boon for a follower of Rovagug.
-How many total class levels (or can we make a Kitsune Sorcerer 20/Invoker Witch 20/Third Class 20/etc.)?
20 levels in total
-What's the total point-buy (because of the ability I am about to mention)?
20
-Can we use consumables or are we going for something repeatable?
Sure why not
-How about artifacts?
No
-Is it OK if we use a bunch of feats/traits that only apply to one chosen spell, so that's the only one with a high DC?
Yes
-Is retraining allowed?
Sure why not
-Can we use teamwork? (Both teamwork feats and friendly party members using spells/abilities on us.)
Let's say no before it devolves into a game of Leadrship abuse
-How long do we have to prep for casting? (Is it OK to spend 10 rounds buffing before unleashing the big DC spell?)
You can buff before combat
No teamwork? Drats!
So I presume Covens, Familiars, and special uses of Aid Another also not allowed?
Well, goodbye Hags. Goodbye Magician Bard. Goodbye Order of the Staff Cavalier. [Magician Bard VMC Cavalier also works]
Instead of point buy(s)... why not just say a 28(+9) in your main casting stat for 9/9... 22(+6) for 6/9 casters... and 18(+4) for 4/9 casters... that is where everyone's casting stat is high enough to get a bonus spell of their highest level... it is the benchmark that I thought all spellcasters held standard, if not as a minimum requirement.
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why not just say a 28(+9) in your main casting stat for 9/9... 22(+6) for 6/9 casters... and 18(+4) for 4/9 casters... that is where everyone's casting stat is high enough to get a bonus spell of their highest level... it is the benchmark that I thought all spellcasters held standard, if not as a minimum requirement.
I've played for a decade and have never heard of this standard before; and it seems pretty arbitrary to me.
Because in actual gameplay I'd be looking more at levels 5 through 10 instead of the far-off level 20; and a 6/9 caster would need only a 14 in casting stat so he can at least cast 4th-level spells. Having an 18 is nice and all, but rather expensive at that level range.
I've played for a decade and have never heard of this standard before; and it seems pretty arbitrary to me.
It is entirely arbitrary, but that is what theory crafting is at its core. Getting the highest DC requires having the highest possible casting stat within a given range. I agree that such a stat spread isn't going to be used in MOST actual games (outside those high optimized games that stretch the rules to their breaking point), but nothing wrong with testing the limits and dialing it back for actual gameplay.
As for the highest DC challenge, I have a few ideas that play off of stacking elemental types and lighting people on fire to boost the DC of your spells, but am lacking the time to put it together at the moment.
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Since no one has posted any actual numbers yet, I thought I would start us off easy: Here's a DC 50 overwhelming presence.
Charisma
18 starting
+5 level boost
+5 Tome
+6 Headband
+8 Perfect Body, Flawless Mind (alternate capstone)
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Cha 42 = +16
Kitsune Magic racial trait = +1 to enchantment spells
Kitsune sorcerer FCB = +5 to enchantment spells
Fey bloodline arcana = +2 on enchantment (compulsion) spells
Arcane bloodline school power (enchantment) = +2 on enchantment spells
Spell focus and greater spell focus (enchantment) plus Spell Perfection (overwhelming presence) = +4 to DC of (overwhelming presence)
Eager Performer (campaign trait) = +1 to DC of one enchantment spell (overwhelming presence)
Overwhelming Presence - 9th level spell = DC 19 + above
Add it all up for DC 50.
why not just say a 28(+9) in your main casting stat for 9/9... 22(+6) for 6/9 casters... and 18(+4) for 4/9 casters... that is where everyone's casting stat is high enough to get a bonus spell of their highest level... it is the benchmark that I thought all spellcasters held standard, if not as a minimum requirement.I've played for a decade and have never heard of this standard before; and it seems pretty arbitrary to me.
Because in actual gameplay I'd be looking more at levels 5 through 10 instead of the far-off level 20; and a 6/9 caster would need only a 14 in casting stat so he can at least cast 4th-level spells. Having an 18 is nice and all, but rather expensive at that level range.
An AntiPaladin, Bloodrager, Paladin, and Ranger can all technically start with an 8 in their casting individual casting stat, and still afford to reliably cast investing only gold in a headband... but who does that?
What 6/9 caster doesn't start with a 14 in their casting stat... knowing that a headband will carry them as far as they are ever expected to go? Most anyone with any sort of Pool tries to start with a 14 in that Pool's contributing stat just to make having said Pool worth using. You still have all your HD stat bumps to go towards murderhobo nonsense, or whatever. What 9/9 caster doesn't start with an 18 in their primary casting stat? Your HD bumps and the standard tome or stacking wishes or whatever... that's 28, right?
Sure, it's completely arbitrary, but pretty accurate, nonetheless. It just so happens that 4/9 casters get a bonus 4th-level spell with a +4 modifier... and 6/9 casters get a bonus 6th-level spell with a +6 modifier... and 9/9 casters get a bonus 9th-level spell with a +9 modifier... I like the way the universe lines up like that.
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@Belafon wow that's impressive. I can add Elixir of Concordance for another +1. But a build like this probably needs a way to deal with immunity to mind-affecting.
It is entirely arbitrary, but that is what theory crafting is at its core. ... I agree that such a stat spread isn't going to be used in MOST actual games
Sure, it's completely arbitrary, but pretty accurate, nonetheless.
It's funny that you claim that everybody plays the way you do when there's two people right here pointing out that they don't play that way :)
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@Belafon wow that's impressive. I can add Elixir of Concordance for another +1. But a build like this probably needs a way to deal with immunity to mind-affecting.
Eh. It’s not a “build” that is intended to be used in actual play. It’s a fun thought exercise- what’s the highest DC you can come up with?
So rather than debating whether the arbitrary limits chosen by the original poster are the right arbitrary limits, I’m just going to play around with numbers. Pretty sure I have a fireball that’s going to have a much higher DC, just haven’t nailed down the specifics yet.
Another way to boost spell DCs if you have a wizard friend that can cast 9th level spells (or are one yourself) is to cast Ascension (the minor artifact needed you can get by having an alchemist friend to make a Philosopher's Stone or disassembling a familiar automaton to get an Automaton Core)
This way you can Mythic Spell Focus to get +4 to DC with Spell Perfection
Also if the spell is an elemental damage spell we can use the Extra Mythic Feat path ability to also get Mythic Elemental Focus to get another +2 with Spell Perfection.
What 9/9 caster doesn't start with an 18 in their primary casting stat? Your HD bumps and the standard tome or stacking wishes or whatever... that's 28, right?
*raises hand*
Well, I have been playing a ... very ... long time and I can tell you that I have never started a 9/9 caster with an 18 in their primary casting stat when using post buy. Even with racial bonuses, it a solid 17 at character creation, freeing up those extra points to pad out the weaker stats. Now, in games that we have rolled for stats, I have ended up with a primary casting stat that has been 18 or higher, but aside from that, its only been in theory crafting builds (and later dialing that waaaay back for actual play) that I assign high primary stats to main casters.
Now, back to the topic at hand. I still don't have enough time to fully flesh out a build for the 'highest' DC, but I'll toss out some of my ideas that others can take and run with. This list is not all inclusive, just some of those that I know of that I feel are generally applicable, and that haven't been mentioned yet.
Sorcerer: Salamander Bloodline Arcane - +2 DC to spells vs creatures taking ongoing fire damage
Sorcerer: Astral Bloodline Arcana: +1 DC each time you 'chain cast' a spell.
Sorcerer: Div Bloodline Arcana = +1 DC to spells for 1d4 rounds after casting an 'area' spell
Wizard: Arcane Discoveries (Alchemical Affinity and Yuelral's Blessing) - +1 DC to spells that appear on both the wizard's list and the alchemist/druid list (respectively).
Druid: Nature Fang (Studied Target): Boosts spell DCs versus studied target
Oh yeah, Minigiant:
-Is Mythic material allowed?
-3rd party?
No
Some pretty decent potentially brutal combinations:
Weird is a 9th-level spell with the fear descriptor... Bloody Tears & Jagged Smile can add +4 to its DC. Deific Obedience Mahathallah increases Illusion spell DC's by +2.
Scourge of the Horsemen is a 9th-level spell with the evil descriptor, so Maleficium (and two other Damnation feats) is +2, Champion of Darkness Drow is another +2.
Using the Whimsy Star power component has the chance of increasing the spell's level by 1, not unlike Auspicious Birth [Sun Sign]... too bad Sunbeam seems to be the highest level spell with the light descriptor, otherwise Auspicious Birth + rolling a 6 when using Whimsy Star could potentially get you an 11th-level spell. Lol. As it sits now, though, Sunbeam + Auspicious Birth + Whimsy Star is still only a 10th-level spell... Whimsy Star can turn any 9th-level spell into a 10th-level spell.
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Okay, took me a while, but here's a DC 64 shadow conjuration (acid spray).
Stats (while raging)
Str 11
Dex 9
Con 32 (+11)
Int 13
Wis 13
Cha 34 (+12)
Yes, this means I dropped almost everything to the minimum in order to get 18 as starting Con and Cha. Int and Wis are higher because of items (and Wis is important for a feat). Anyway, when I use my Ragecaster ability, that makes my save DC bonus from stats +23.
Feats
Spell Focus (illusion)
Greater Spell Focus (illusion)
Elemental Focus (acid)
Greater Elemental Focus (acid)
Tenebrous Spell
Focused Spell
Spell Perfection (greater shadow conjuration)
-All those together add up to +14 to the DC vs the focused target
Versatile Spontaneity
Heighten Spell
Fiendish Obedience (Mahathallah) (+2 DC on illusion spells)
Other boosters
Shadow Magic (wayang racial) - +1 to DC of Shadow spells.
Shadow stencil set - +1 competence bonus to DC of shadow spells cast by a wayang.
Rod of the Wayang - +1 to DC of shadow spells
Robe of Runes - +2 enhancement to DC after recalling a spell
Outlander (missionary) trait - +1 to DC of 3 spells (choose greater shadow conjuration for one, obviously.
Magical Lineage (greater shadow conjuration)
Silver (alchemical reagent) - +1 to DC of illusion spells.
Heightened (1), Tenebrous, Focused greater shadow conjuration (acid spray) is a 8th level spell so DC 18. Now add the rest
Stats +23
Spell Perfection +14
Obedience +2
Others +7
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DC 64
The only "buff" I have to do is to recall a spell (as a free action) right before I cast to activate the +2 DC bonus from Robe of Runes. I do have a prepared spell to recall because of the Versatile Spontaneity feat.
This spell obviously isn't the greatest use of resources. But the name of the game is to get the highest DC possible.
NoOh yeah, Minigiant:
-Is Mythic material allowed?
-3rd party?
Can we use Mythic material that doesn't require us to be mythic?
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There’s three things that I really thought existed, but can’t find.
1) A trait that lets you choose one spell and add one to the DC. (There are traits for some schools, but I can’t find a general trait or one specifically for illusion.)
2) An oracle revelation that lets you add to the DC of a spell a limited number of times per day.
3) A spell that can increase the DC of the next spell you cast. (I was thinking it was cleromancy but that doesn’t do DC boosts.)
There’s three things that I really thought existed, but can’t find.
1) A trait that lets you choose one spell and add one to the DC. (There are traits for some schools, but I can’t find a general trait or one specifically for illusion.)
2) An oracle revelation that lets you add to the DC of a spell a limited number of times per day.
3) A spell that can increase the DC of the next spell you cast. (I was thinking it was cleromancy but that doesn’t do DC boosts.)
3) Bloody Tears & Jagged Smile... increases the DC of spells with the fear descriptor by +4.