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So it seems to me a lot of people like to dismiss the swashbuckler, and I understand why. When I first saw them they were a bit . . . underwhelming. But there HAS to be something there going on where they can be fun and playable. I'm just trying to figure out what it is and how to make a fun, useful swashbuckler. I'm not looking to make the best character in the game, I'm fully aware that a Fighter or Rogue is probably going to out-damage me, but there's got to be some way to build a swashbuckler where they are having fun, doing their thing, and being competent in their job.
Anyone have any ideas?
First we'd need to know what you find fun.
For a Swashbuckler, you'll likely find your answer in the Styles (since your fighting method will pretty much be one-handed weapon user, albeit possibly throwing too). Do you prefer to Perform/flaunt, Demoralize, Feint, control your enemy's position (grab/shove/trip), or insult w/ wit (Bon Mot)?
As a Swashbuckler, your best round will generally involve doing that and getting in one good Strike. Hopefully that's a great Finisher to remain competitive, but those Panache options also set up your allies. For example, if you have a few allies casting mental magic, Bon Mot would mesh well, Demoralize works well both vs. saves & AC, and tripping doesn't help casters' offense much (though does help with guarding them).
Notice that most of them are based on Charisma which you won't be able to skimp on and that will stretch your stats (but those will rebound as you get boosts). If nothing appeals there, that leaves Athletics and the Gymnast Style. Since a Gymnast's Panache-gaining actions help all your melee types (often a decent chunk of any party) and Str is good for damage so you can't exactly ignore it, most people recommend it (or seem to, though I've heard others Styles being fun too).
At this point you have to consider what kind of Ancestry appeals to you too, as that impacts one's stats. Since all of them can get to 18 Dex, they all can do well in at least one Style.
After those choices, you'd be most of the way toward completion.
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I've written a guide for the Swashbuckler.
The Swashbuckler is weak at low level, but once you get to level 7 it's fine. If your campaign lasts up to level 20 or starts beyond level 1 you should have fun playing one.
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In all honesty, I think that if the concept of a swashbuckler appeals to you then the class is already very, very good. It pretty much forces you to do swashbuckler like things and is mechanically quite sound (it doesn't quite do as much damage as a rogue or fighter but it is close enough to not be an issue and it has other things going for it).
But if you're looking for a maximally effective character without regard to flavour then you're better off looking elsewhere. Likely at fighter or rogue.
So the question is : Why are you thinking of a swashbuckler? Do you have some fantasy/movie/whatever image of a character that you're trying to emulate? If you do, pick the appropriate style and go for it. You'll be effective and have fun.
But the class is built for people who WANT to buckle their swashes one way or another. If the whole "But I have to get panache" thing turns you off then the class isn't designed for you. The class is designed for people who WANT to swing from chandeliers or constantly taunt in combat or (pick another style) and therefore WANT there to be a mechanical reason to do that.
It is a magnificently designed class for people who want to play a swashbuckler. It is badly designed for people who just want to maximize damage or trips or whatever.
Paul makes a good point. If that list of Panache-actions from the Styles has none that you want your PC to do nearly every round, then the Swashbuckler class isn't for you, and the swashbuckler flavor can more easily be obtained from a Rogue or Dex-Fighter, which would also be easier to play. And you might slap an MCD Swashbuckler on top of one of those.
If you just want to take the class for a spin to test its mechanics, that's a much different thing, and maybe we could just toss you a generic build for that irregardless of its flavor.
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As a side note, you should check with your GM that they understand the concept of the class. There's a rule about gaining Panache by doing panachey actions outside Tumble Through and the ones from your style. Depending on how your GM wants to handle this rule it can either encourage you to make panachey actions or completely discourage you to make any. That's important to check with the GM that it's way better to encourage them than discourage them, the class is not overpowered when the GM is nice with Panache gain and it really increases the fun playing it.
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I just wanted to see what the swashbuckler was like, see if there was anything to the build. I only ever really see negative things about it, so I wanted to see what could be done.
To me the Acrobat seems like the best choice as a 18 dex/16 str acrobat with pinache can do more minimum damage than an 18 str any other character (except barbarian) at first level. (1d6+5 with a rapier) I really want to make fun of opportune parry/riposte as a way of discouraging GMs to 'swing for the fences.' I dunno.
The base idea was 'what can I do with a Swashbuckler to prove that they are a decent?' Human would probably be the best bet for ancestry but I have to admit others would be fun, particularly goblin. Gnomes have some crazy good racial/ancestries and a good constitution to boot if I wanted to go with a lower strength. Admittedly a flying blade is a fun idea but I'm not super fond of it.
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The base idea was 'what can I do with a Swashbuckler to prove that they are a decent?'
That goal is pretty trivial. Just build a swashbuckler and play it. SuperBidi's guide is a good place to start. As long as you make sensible choices your character WILL be decent.
Put an 18 in your combat stat, a 14 or 16 in your "Panache stat". And then play up the character by constantly trying to get their Panache.
The naysayers are complaining because the class isn't quite optimal at dealing damage and its complicated to play. Both of those observations are absolutely correct and almost completely irrelevant if your goal is "decent".
Assuming you're willing to play a somewhat complicated character, that is. You DO have to pay a lot more attention to the battlefield than Mr"I hit things". You have to pay attention to how difficult gaining panache is and change your tactics accordingly
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The one thing that really gets me building a swashbuckler is boss fights. Sure it may be easy to tumble through a square of a dude that is your level, but if you are facing off against a boss that is 2-3 levels higher than you it becomes significantly more difficult. In Agents of Edgewatch our party has gone up against boss enemies that we had little to no chance of shoving or intimidating or tumbling through, even with our best characters. This becomes problematic because you never gain your panache during the fights you need it the most-boss fights.
That's why 'After You' looks almost like a must have to me. That way you can start with panache on boss fights for that extra damage. I dunno, maybe I'm overthinking things, but that seems like an issue to me.
The one thing that really gets me building a swashbuckler is boss fights. Sure it may be easy to tumble through a square of a dude that is your level, but if you are facing off against a boss that is 2-3 levels higher than you it becomes significantly more difficult. In Agents of Edgewatch our party has gone up against boss enemies that we had little to no chance of shoving or intimidating or tumbling through, even with our best characters. This becomes problematic because you never gain your panache during the fights you need it the most-boss fights.
That's why 'After You' looks almost like a must have to me. That way you can start with panache on boss fights for that extra damage. I dunno, maybe I'm overthinking things, but that seems like an issue to me.
Yes there is a tendancy in published adventures to have the party fighting against smaller numbers of higher level opponents and it distorts the game a bit. Because suddenly criticals are only on a natural 20 unless you really have a lot of effects stacked up. It does get to be a 50% or less chance to gain panache on each action.
For things like intimidation you can't always try again when you fail. However you can always keep trying to tumble through, and there is no increasing penalty.
Basic attacks without a finisher are not spectacular, but they are still Ok. Sometimes you will just have to use them.
You don't have to spend you panache every time you get it. It can be better to hang on to it.
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The one thing that really gets me building a swashbuckler is boss fights.
On the other hand, doing decent damage on a miss via a finisher is golden against a boss. Probably doesn't totally compensate but goes a long way towards compensating.
Especially if your panache thingy attacks a non Reflex save.
The one thing that really gets me building a swashbuckler is boss fights.On the other hand, doing decent damage on a miss via a finisher is golden against a boss. Probably doesn't totally compensate but goes a long way towards compensating.
Especially if your panache thingy attacks a non Reflex save.
It's not golden when you have a significant failure rate to enable panache even against a weak save.
Yes there is a tendancy in published adventures to have the party fighting against smaller numbers of higher level opponents and it distorts the game a bit. Because suddenly criticals are only on a natural 20 unless you really have a lot of effects stacked up. It does get to be a 50% or less chance to gain panache on each action.
I don't really see this as a distortion unless you're referring to how often it's used. The system has tight difficulty bounds and it's the responsibility of the player to make sure their character can perform well across the entire spectrum. That the swashbuckler's mechanics buckle (heh) in the face of tough solo opposition is a mechanics flaw that players need to plan around one way or the other.
That's why 'After You' looks almost like a must have to me. That way you can start with panache on boss fights for that extra damage. I dunno, maybe I'm overthinking things, but that seems like an issue to me.
This is good not just for action-free panache, but to give the casters time to buff/debuff as needed which further improves your situation.
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For the OP, the answer is to just... build a Swashbuckler really. If you're willing to accept that you won't be the best at damage or the most optimal combatant, then you've already gotten past the biggest issue.
There's some generic advice, like After You being a nice way to make sure you can get Panache. I think One for All builds can be pretty interesting and I think Battledancers kinda suck.
But broader issues like generating panache reliably and wonky scaling and finisher balance aren't things you can really build out of outside some very basic, no brainer things.
So really all there is to do is play the class and enjoy it.
Don't skills scale at a faster rate than weapon accuracy? Monster saves (low save) and monster AC should be in the same ballpark regardless of level. If a character has trouble beating a boss monster's saves with skills, then the same character should have as much, if not more trouble bypassing a monster's AC with a weapon.
Well, two issues.
First, you highlight targeting the low save, but you can't always do that. Fencers can't target Fort or Will (instead they target Perception), Gymnasts can't target Will, Wit/Braggarts/Battledancers can't target Fort.
Still some decent options, but worth remembering.
The other thing is that the checks are tiered. In order to perform a finisher, you have to successfully gain panache and then perform an action that expends panache. So you're not just looking at finding a check to beat the boss, but succeeding on two checks in a row in order to perform your full combat routine.
There are some other considerations here, like Bon Mot and Feint having failure penalties, the Braggart only being able to try their unique action once per combat, and the Battledancer's unique action having no effect whatsoever.
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Looking through some stuff . . . found a build that looks like it works, but one question.
So it looks like the best way to get panache if you have a big bad in the room is to . . . not target him. The 'All for one' feat lets you diplomacy YOUR FRIEND for panache, and if you get the 'very hard' DC (I.E. beat the level DC by 5) you get Panache that way, never needing to involve the Level+3 enemy or whatever. This is also great because you can ALWAYS do it. You don't have to try and trip an untrippable enemy or intimidate a mindless one, all you have to do is help a friend. Sure it uses up your reaction so you can't riposte that turn but, like, you need panache first right?
So-question. Does the diplomacy roll to aid count as an aid action? Does it get the benefit of the +4 bonus from human co-operative nature? If so then that's effectively beat the level DC +1. I know it isn't perfect, using up your reaction, but it seems like a good option to me.
So-question. Does the diplomacy roll to aid count as an aid action? Does it get the benefit of the +4 bonus from human co-operative nature? If so then that's effectively beat the level DC +1. I know it isn't perfect, using up your reaction, but it seems like a good option to me.
Yes. 1fa may replace the skill you use, but it very clearly states that it's altering the aid reaction.
However, keep in mind you won't get the panache until the aid goes off. Really increases the value of after you to get you that turn 1 panache.
P.S. double check the math on it though. Iirc even with cooperative nature, until skill scaling kicks in, you still only have a 50/50 ish chance to succeed.
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So-question. Does the diplomacy roll to aid count as an aid action? Does it get the benefit of the +4 bonus from human co-operative nature? If so then that's effectively beat the level DC +1. I know it isn't perfect, using up your reaction, but it seems like a good option to me.Yes. 1fa may replace the skill you use, but it very clearly states that it's altering the aid reaction.
However, keep in mind you won't get the panache until the aid goes off. Really increases the value of after you to get you that turn 1 panache.
P.S. double check the math on it though. Iirc even with cooperative nature, until skill scaling kicks in, you still only have a 50/50 ish chance to succeed.
The way I read the feat is that it uses two different DCs. There's the 'Aid another' DC, and there's the 'get a panache' DC. The Aid another is always 20, but the 'get a panache' is your friend's level DC +5. So at level 1 you'd need a 20 (15+5) for both. But at level 2, it's a 21 to get panache, and still a 20 to aid another.
So at level 1, assuming you have, say, 14 charisma, it'd be 1d20+2(trained)+2 (Charisma)+1(level)+4(Cooperative nature) or 11 or better on the die. Level 2 is 11, level 3 is 9 if you get expert in diplomacy, maybe down to 8 if you get a diplomat's badge . . .
Get bleeding finisher, done
Battledancer's impressive performance is terrible but leading dance is pretty good.
Also for gymnasts, the fact that most of your panache generating actions have the attack trait kinda gimps you a lot.
IMO bully battledancer wit and fencer are the best ones out there, allowing you to target will and perception DC on top of reflex with tumblr through.
After you is very good, specially agaisnt bosses. I've had a party with a fencer and a party with a battledancer and fencer with after you had a lot more success.
Also for gymnasts, the fact that most of your panache generating actions have the attack trait kinda gimps you a lot.
It makes it difficult to do the normal thing of gain panache, spend panache on finisher in one turn.
Does make keeping panache and using Derring-Do a bit more attractive though.
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Also for gymnasts, the fact that most of your panache generating actions have the attack trait kinda gimps you a lot.
It makes it difficult to do the normal thing of gain panache, spend panache on finisher in one turn.
Does make keeping panache and using Derring-Do a bit more attractive though.
Gymnasts can always tumble to gain panache if they have a MAP. So its not really a major problem.
But what gymnasts really want to do is lock down opponents by restraining them. Or tossing/holding enemies in dangerous terrain/spell effetcs. They don't have to spend their panache to do this, and they are better off keeping their panache for the next round.
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So-question. Does the diplomacy roll to aid count as an aid action? Does it get the benefit of the +4 bonus from human co-operative nature? If so then that's effectively beat the level DC +1. I know it isn't perfect, using up your reaction, but it seems like a good option to me.Yes. 1fa may replace the skill you use, but it very clearly states that it's altering the aid reaction.
However, keep in mind you won't get the panache until the aid goes off. Really increases the value of after you to get you that turn 1 panache.
P.S. double check the math on it though. Iirc even with cooperative nature, until skill scaling kicks in, you still only have a 50/50 ish chance to succeed.
The way I read the feat is that it uses two different DCs. There's the 'Aid another' DC, and there's the 'get a panache' DC. The Aid another is always 20, but the 'get a panache' is your friend's level DC +5. So at level 1 you'd need a 20 (15+5) for both. But at level 2, it's a 21 to get panache, and still a 20 to aid another.
So at level 1, assuming you have, say, 14 charisma, it'd be 1d20+2(trained)+2 (Charisma)+1(level)+4(Cooperative nature) or 11 or better on the die. Level 2 is 11, level 3 is 9 if you get expert in diplomacy, maybe down to 8 if you get a diplomat's badge . . .
The "get a panache" DC is your level DC +5. That's not usually going to make a difference in a group, but it does make a difference in PFS, where the character you're trying to Aid might be higher or lower level than you.
At 3rd level, it should be a 10 or better, unless you're picking up an item or status bonus from somewhere. The Level-based DC jumps by 2 at 3rd level (from 16 at 2nd to 18 at 3rd), while expert plus gaining a level gives you +3 over trained/2nd level. Diplomat's Badge is a level 5 item, so I don't think you can count on having that at level 3.
This does, at least, look like one of the more reliable ways to gain panache, but largely due to exploiting the +4 from the ancestry feat. Any non-human (that isn't adopted by humans) is out of luck.
So one build can reliably get to a better than 50% chance of gaining panache at 3rd level while not being reliant on the enemy's stats. I guess that's a place to start, anyway.
Why does no one ever seem to mention that Fencer can also gain panache by Creating a Diversion? Create a Diversion is not any easier than Feint in terms of the die roll, as they both target Perception, but you can Create a Diversion at range, you can do so with a gesture, and it targets any enemies you choose who can see you, so you only need to succeed against one of them to gain panache (much like Battledancer). (There might be an exploit that I wouldn't try at a table in that it just says "the creatures whose attention you're trying to divert," so it could be argued you could target allies as well) Granted, it becomes harder to do so a second time, but they aren't immune entirely like with Braggart/Demoralize. You can then Sneak up to a creature that you succeeded against (with your extra move from Panache) and catch them flat-footed, same as if you'd successfully feinted against them.
After You, to me, is feeling like a necessity, at least at low levels. Too many rounds are just frustratingly failing to gain panache, so at least you can guarantee you'll start with it. When chances improve at later levels, I could see retraining it away.
Anyway, the Wit/One for All/Cooperative Nature build looks to be the easiest for low levels, at least for consistency. You know what DC you need to hit, instead of having to guess at what might be low on the enemy. It takes some coordination or at least gaming the initiative order to get the most out of it.
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At 3rd level, it should be a 10 or better, unless you're picking up an item or status bonus from somewhere. The Level-based DC jumps by 2 at 3rd level (from 16 at 2nd to 18 at 3rd), while expert plus gaining a level gives you +3 over trained/2nd level. Diplomat's Badge is a level 5 item, so I don't think you can count on having that at level 3.
This does, at least, look like one of the more reliable ways to gain panache,...
The downside is using a reaction. Swashbuckler get Riposte and AoO so that is a real cost. But handing out regular circumstance bonuses to attack to a martial ally is pretty good.
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The downside is using a reaction. Swashbuckler get Riposte and AoO so that is a real cost. But handing out regular circumstance bonuses to attack to a martial ally is pretty good.At 3rd level, it should be a 10 or better, unless you're picking up an item or status bonus from somewhere. The Level-based DC jumps by 2 at 3rd level (from 16 at 2nd to 18 at 3rd), while expert plus gaining a level gives you +3 over trained/2nd level. Diplomat's Badge is a level 5 item, so I don't think you can count on having that at level 3.
This does, at least, look like one of the more reliable ways to gain panache,...
Right, but if you keep failing to gain panache, the infrequent riposte for maybe 1d6+2 isn't really that fantastic, given that you need to draw a crit fail attack to even get to make the riposte in the first place. When you get Striking, a Riposte without panache looks a little better, but you still really want to get panache if you can.
As a side note, building Panache must not be the only goal of your Swashbuckler's Style. If the action that your Style provides you isn't appealing to you, then maybe it's better to play something else.
The Wit Swashbuckler Style action is Bon Mot. If you don't care about reducing the enemies Will Saves, then it's pointless. Now, if you have an Occult caster targetting Will easily, Bon Mot both builds your Panache and builds the caster's spells, 2 birds one stone, but also the proper way of playing a Swashbuckler.
For battledancer swashbuckler, nothing says you have to affect an ally to get panache with impressive performance btw.
In one of my games, the battledancer is a crazy kitsune who's in live with her older brother, the fighter of the group.
First thing almost every fight she does is "flash her panties" at the fighter while blushing and yelling "nee damnnn why are you looking at my panties!!"
And since the fighter has low will DC it almost always works. Fascinate is not that bad of a condition to have for him.
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For battledancer swashbuckler, nothing says you have to affect an ally to get panache with impressive performance btw.
In one of my games, the battledancer is a crazy kitsune who's in live with her older brother, the fighter of the group.
First thing almost every fight she does is "flash her panties" at the fighter while blushing and yelling "nee damnnn why are you looking at my panties!!"
And since the fighter has low will DC it almost always works. Fascinate is not that bad of a condition to have for him.
Many, many GMs will flat out disallow this as obvious cheese. I'm sure this will get a response that it isn't forbidden by the rules. To which my counter response is "Many, many GMs will flat out disallow this".
I'm not gonna argue with you on that !! I allowed it, but I do agree that many GM's will not allow it.
For OP or future readers, check with your GM if they allow friendly fire panache !
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I'm not seeing where the cheese is
You are trained in Performance and gain the Fascinating Performance skill feat. You gain panache during an encounter when the result of your Performance check to Perform exceeds the Will DC of an observing foe, even if the foe isn't fascinated.
As far as I can tell, for this and every other style, it only cares about foe/enemy target unless you're using one for all. Unless of course you try to argue that you're an enemy of the group who simply happens to be fighting with them at the moment.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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Assuming any other melee dex based character, apart from the thief racket, 1d6+2 is the average outcome.
Considering a human, starting with 18 dex would probably result into 12 or 14 str, to also get a nice Constitution score.
So the damage is perfectly fine.
What a swashbuckler may do is to find a larger weapon ( higher weapon dice) to fight with, or to just benefit from the passive effect from panache, getting 1d6+2+2 rather than 1d6+2, spamming attacks all day long ( talking about lvl 1 here).
Saving the reaction for either reposte or shield block ( available by lvl 1 if a versatile human), in addition to the one provided by the one for all feat, would open up for more possibilities.
The point was in regards to saving your reaction for opportune riposte vs trying to use it to gain panache with one for all. Opportune riposte doesn’t come online until 3rd level. So it’s not a comparison of level 1 damage or single attack damage. It’s whether holding your reaction for the chance that you might be able to do an extra 5.5 average damage is worth not trying to gain panache, which would get you extra speed, extra damage on a normal attack, an extra 2d6 on a finisher, and (at 3rd) effectively 1d6 on a miss. At low levels, having panache is preferable to the slim chance you’re going to even get that extra attack. At 4th, the attack looks better, because you get striking. At 5th, your precise strike damage goes up +1/+1d6. (EDIT: This is all predicated on building for One for All in the first place. If you aren’t doing that, and getting that +4 from Cooperative Nature, your chances of gaining panache go way down. To your point about having multiple options for a reaction, that is a good thing. I still don’t know if taking shield block is worth it, though).
Without bonus damage of some kind, a swashbuckler is behind every other martial. I’m not sure what weapon you’re going to get with a bigger damage die (Aldori Dueling Sword?) that doesn’t require more investment or mean you take a penalty to hit, because it’s not finesse. If you’re using a steel shield, you’re kind of abandoning all of the swashbuckler fighting styles. If you’re using a bucker, it’s not going to survive more than one shield block.
Almost every other martial class has some sort of reliable bonus damage. Yes, some of them fail in certain circumstances (rogue vs immune to precision or can’t maneuver into a flank, flurry Ranger’s damage is from increased accuracy on multiple attacks, monk is from an extra attack with flurry of blows). For swashbuckler, the extra damage either comes from panache or from getting extra attacks with opportune riposte. Neither of those things are reliable at low levels. You might fail to gain panache on your turn, or you might never get attacked to try to riposte. A swashbuckler could get panache and keep it to get the extra +2, but the point is they need some reliable way to get panache in the first place.
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I'm not seeing where the cheese is
You are trained in Performance and gain the Fascinating Performance skill feat. You gain panache during an encounter when the result of your Performance check to Perform exceeds the Will DC of an observing foe, even if the foe isn't fascinated.As far as I can tell, for this and every other style, it only cares about foe/enemy target unless you're using one for all. Unless of course you try to argue that you're an enemy of the group who simply happens to be fighting with them at the moment.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
“Observing foe” I believe the suggestion is to roll against their own party member, who they know has a low will DC.
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“Observing foe” I believe the suggestion is to roll against their own party member, who they know has a low will DC.I'm not seeing where the cheese is
You are trained in Performance and gain the Fascinating Performance skill feat. You gain panache during an encounter when the result of your Performance check to Perform exceeds the Will DC of an observing foe, even if the foe isn't fascinated.As far as I can tell, for this and every other style, it only cares about foe/enemy target unless you're using one for all. Unless of course you try to argue that you're an enemy of the group who simply happens to be fighting with them at the moment.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
That is the cheese suggestion.
gesalt is pointing out that it is not a rules-legal suggestion since a Battledancer only gains panache if their Performance roll exceeds the DC of a foe. Your ally with a low Will DC is not a foe, so fascinating them does not give you panache.
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For battledancer swashbuckler, nothing says you have to affect an ally to get panache with impressive performance btw.
In one of my games, the battledancer is a crazy kitsune who's in live with her older brother, the fighter of the group.
First thing almost every fight she does is "flash her panties" at the fighter while blushing and yelling "nee damnnn why are you looking at my panties!!"
And since the fighter has low will DC it almost always works. Fascinate is not that bad of a condition to have for him.
Many, many GMs will flat out disallow this as obvious cheese. I'm sure this will get a response that it isn't forbidden by the rules. To which my counter response is "Many, many GMs will flat out disallow this".
So yeah, it sort-of works. You can indeed target your ally with the Fascinate and gain panache because you don't have to fascinate a foe. But you do still have to roll high enough on the Performance check to beat the Will DC of an observing foe. Beating your ally's Will DC and successfully fascinating them doesn't count.
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So-question. Does the diplomacy roll to aid count as an aid action? Does it get the benefit of the +4 bonus from human co-operative nature? If so then that's effectively beat the level DC +1. I know it isn't perfect, using up your reaction, but it seems like a good option to me.Yes. 1fa may replace the skill you use, but it very clearly states that it's altering the aid reaction.
However, keep in mind you won't get the panache until the aid goes off. Really increases the value of after you to get you that turn 1 panache.
P.S. double check the math on it though. Iirc even with cooperative nature, until skill scaling kicks in, you still only have a 50/50 ish chance to succeed.
The way I read the feat is that it uses two different DCs. There's the 'Aid another' DC, and there's the 'get a panache' DC. The Aid another is always 20, but the 'get a panache' is your friend's level DC +5. So at level 1 you'd need a 20 (15+5) for both. But at level 2, it's a 21 to get panache, and still a 20 to aid another.
So at level 1, assuming you have, say, 14 charisma, it'd be 1d20+2(trained)+2 (Charisma)+1(level)+4(Cooperative nature) or 11 or better on the die. Level 2 is 11, level 3 is 9 if you get expert in diplomacy, maybe down to 8 if you get a diplomat's badge . . .
The "get a panache" DC is your level DC +5. That's not usually going to make a difference in a group, but it does make a difference in PFS, where the character you're trying to Aid might be higher or lower level than you.
At 3rd level, it should be a 10 or better, unless you're picking up an item or status bonus from somewhere. The Level-based DC jumps by 2 at 3rd level (from 16 at 2nd to 18 at 3rd), while expert plus gaining a level gives you +3 over trained/2nd level. Diplomat's Badge is a level 5 item, so I don't think you can count on having that at level 3.
This does, at least, look like one of the more reliable ways to gain panache,...
Silvertongue Mutagen for an item bonus to Diplomacy and the other CHA skills ;-)
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Anyway, it's not much cheesing. You use an action with no positive outcome outside getting Panache when you can use an action with an interesting outcome on top of gaining Panache.
The Battledancer is one of the hardest Swashbuckler build as you need a party that can benefit from enemy repositioning. I could see a party with a Giant Barbarian, a Plant Summoner and a Swashbuckler pushing melee enemies away from your allies to force them to trigger AoOs every turn (and lose an action moving on top of that).
There's also a wide GM interpretation on "hazardous terrain": Does a Wall of Fire or another kind of area spell makes a terrain "hazardous"? Depending on the GM interpretation, you can have a bigger lot of available combos.
Observing foe is something I've asked to better define in other threads. What's a foe? How temporary does it have to be ? I'd say applying a hostile debuff on an ally certainly qualifies as adversarial.
The current battledancer I am allowing this for is kind of insane and has disfigured another PC (her twin sister) because they looked too much alike in the past. On top of that she's a bit rapey with her love interest. Would that qualify her as a foe ? Foe is not a trait or a common use definition with pf2e.
I also note however that I had used the language of fascinating performance and the not the battledancer style, the clarification on foe is very determinate in this case so I'll have to rectify.
Rereading everything though, it seems to me like you can roll performance agaisnt
1 foe at trained
4 foes at expert
10 foes at master
Infinite foes at legendary.
Which does open up a lot of avenues for gaining panache since you don't have to fascinate to gain panache, you just need to:
You gain panache during an encounter when the result of your Performance check to Perform exceeds the Will DC of an observing foe, even if the foe isn't fascinated.
So this is potentially very efficient at panache gathering, even if the action itself doesn't do anything aside from panache gathering (which is a good buff to have!)
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On the subject of leading dance:
Hazardous terrain is indeed weirdly defined as all terrain is potentially hazardous. Is a strategically unsound positioning (such as between all your damage dealers) hazardous?
What about a trap the creature hasn't seen?
I would say that it's anything the creature is reasonably aware of that would cause direct harm to it were it to step in it.
Hole in the ground
Chasm
Wall of fire
But not:
A wad of barbarians waiting for this
Unseen trap
Glyph of warding
Web spell
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Also a lot of mindless creatures have very low will dc.
They won't know what you're doing, but you'll know in your heart of hearts that your dance was awesome and if they had enough brain cells to appreciate art, they would have been impressed by your aggressive salsa battle dance!
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Hazardous Terrain is very well defined: "Hazardous terrain damages you whenever you move through it. An acid pool and a pit of burning embers are both examples of hazardous terrain. The amount and type of damage depend on the specific hazardous terrain."
But you can apply this rule strictly, as in a wall is not part of the terrain and as such a Wall of Fire doesn't make the terrain hazardous. Or you can apply it largely, considering that if a square deals damage, then it's hazardous terrain, even if the damage doesn't come from the terrain itself.
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Silvertongue Mutagen for an item bonus to Diplomacy and the other CHA skills ;-)
That's definitely a good item for a Swashbuckler, since the penalties aren't to things that a Swashbuckler would typically need in combat. You're still just improving your chance to gain panache by 5 or 10% per roll at the not insignificant cost of 4 or 12gp (at 3rd level) per encounter, essentially. For PFS, that would wipe out all of your gold from a scenario.
A level 3, the 4gp isn't so bad. A level 3 character earns 38gp. Trying to use a 12gp mutagen every fight similarly eats away the whole reward. Using a 4gp one every fight is still a big chunk (close to 1/3 of rewards for an average of 3 fights). Using a 4gp one on the boss fight is reasonable.
If you've got an alchemist around that can produce free mutagens, then it would definitely make sense. Otherwise, it's still going to be a limited thing before you can just get the diplomat's badge at 5th. From an action economy standpoint, there's a good argument that the two actions spent taking out a mutagen and drinking it are more productive than two actions attempting to gain panache with a 50% or less chance of succeeding. At least they won't feel quite so pointless.
Anyway, I don't think it should be assumed that a Swashbuckler will have one or drink it every fight, so it shouldn't be counted in a base calculation for whether or not One for All is worth it.
Hazardous Terrain is very well defined: "Hazardous terrain damages you whenever you move through it. An acid pool and a pit of burning embers are both examples of hazardous terrain. The amount and type of damage depend on the specific hazardous terrain."
But you can apply this rule strictly, as in a wall is not part of the terrain and as such a Wall of Fire doesn't make the terrain hazardous. Or you can apply it largely, considering that if a square deals damage, then it's hazardous terrain, even if the damage doesn't come from the terrain itself.
In both interpretations, falling works which makes me question them.
Falling is not part of the square, its a consequence of the lack of terrain.
Also what if you force move into a hole a flying creature? The terrain isn't hazardous for it? Does it not mean then that hazardous terrain is dependent on the creature itself and what it would perceive to be hazardous?
This also says absolutely nothing about debuffs or conditions. So moving an enemy into, say, a web spell,a stinking cloud or that spell that randomly teleports you would definitely not qualify then?
Finally while perhaps a wall of fire can be definitely considered to be part of the square, and thus hazardous... what about visions of danger or telekinetic storm, or pernicious poltergeist ? Those are DEFINITELY not a component of the terrain?