Just curious as to what happened with this...
Just curious as to what happened with this...
We're in Book 6 of the current AP and should be having our zero session for the next campaign in the next few weeks. It's still looking like I will need to be an arcane caster of some kind. Right now I am thinking about Magus/Wizard, but it's still up in the air at this point.
Just curious, why Magus + Wizard?
Are you wanting to be a Magus that has a lot of extra spells, or are you wanting to be a Wizard who has a lot of options and staying power in melee?
Just curious, why Magus + Wizard?
Are you wanting to be a Magus that has a lot of extra spells, or are you wanting to be a Wizard who has a lot of options and staying power in melee?
Trying to figure out an arcane caster that can do more than cast 1 spell per round.
The reason why I ask "why" about Magus + Wizard is because you give up some core offense/defense by going with these two classes. If you have a specific build in mind, then these two classes could be fine, but you're you're making a character with 3/4BAB, d8 HP, and a weak Reflex save and should plan accordingly.
You really do want to choose two classes that use similar Ability Scores, give you +12 progression to all 3 saves, d10 HP per level, level 9 spells, and 4/4 BAB. <---- And if you deviate from this recipe, you should have a good reason why, and plan for having multiple "save me" abilities/spells that can save your life in the event that whatever weakness you've left in your defense is breached, such as a magic item that helps with Reflex Saves like a Ring of Evasion, or an Immediate Action spell that helps block a hit or absorbs damage like Emergency Force Sphere, or Stone Shield, or w/e.
The first items/feats you buy need to be stuff that boosts your AC and Saves, followed promptly by items/feats boosting your Attack and offensive DC's. And having 3/4 BAB is like having 2/4 BAB, frankly. You're going to miss a lot, so if you're going 3/4 BAB, plan on attacking Touch AC. If you have mediocre AC/Saves in a Gestalt game, then you might as well have 0 AC/Saves, tbh. Either boost AC/Saves to max amount possible, or don't bother, and then plan on mitigating whatever weakness in your defense by absorbing/avoiding hits with Mirror Images or Displacement or something, and plan on surviving every Reflex with Improved Evasion or a massive HP pool, and surviving every Will Save with a party member dispelling you or running dedicated counterspells with readied actions. And don't even bother making a character with a 10 in Con, or a character that doesn't have +12 progression in Fort. You'll be re-rolling by level 10.
Gestalt games become rocket-tag-ey as early as level 1, and frankly level 12+ is flat out nuts. The DM has an incredible burden to offer legitimate challenges to a Gestalted party, so the things you fight are either CR=APL+3 to CR=APL+8 from the bestiary, or, they're CR=APL+0 to CR=APL+3 custom-created Gestalted monstrosities tweaked for maximum performance by your DM. And even then, your DM will STILL have a hard time actually challenging the group due to the entire party having insanely optimized action economy. Most often, your DM will be surrounding your party with a multitude of CR=APL monsters due to constantly being abysmally behind in action economy, and this usually ends up being an CR=APL+5-ish encounter, and you might have to solo-kill one of these =CR mooks, or run and survive.
So anywho, you should be planning on making a character that is not lacking anywhere in their defense, because the stuff your DM will essentially be "forced" to throw at the party can 2-5 shot you below 0 HP, or flat out kill your character with a full round attack, special ability, or spell. Even with maximized Saves, you will roll a 1 or barely miss your Saves from time to time, and that's simply unavoidable, but this is the time where you need a "gtfo & heal", because the next hit(s) could be a killing blow and you might have to nail a Save just trying to get out of harm's way.
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Anywho, scary stuff aside, as far as choosing an Arcane Caster that is able to do multiple things per round, Magus, Wizard, Arcanist, and Witch are perfect for this. But I would choose just one of them. Don't pair a Witch with Fighter or Barbarian though, as each of these classes compete for Move Actions.
I would strongly recommend pairing Magus, Wizard, or Witch with a class that can be Dex-based, because Dex scales well all game. Your AC and Reflex will be essentially maxed as possible, and your initiative will be strong all game.
If you're truly married to Magus or Wizard, I'd recommend a Brawler or Slayer + Wizard or Magus. Cha is a dump stat for Brawlers, Slayers, Magi, and Wizards, and each of these classes can run Dex builds, and now you're 4/4BAB, 3 Strong Saves, lvl6-9 spells, and d10 HP/level.
Swashbuckler + Arcanist is another good pairing, or Brawler + Witch with Hex Strike Feat might be something to look into as well. Honestly, Witch is really hard to pair with a weapon-based 4/4BAB classes because Witch competes for Move Actions, and weapon-based 4/4BAB classes need Move Actions for Moving or Charging. Brawler/Monk can synergize well with Witch because unarmed strikers can Hex with a Swift Action with the Hex Strike feat, and have the option to either move or charge, or even perform a Pummeling Charge + Hex Strike in 1 round.
You might even consider Paladin + Sorcerer, and put your Cha in the clouds to make up for the weak Reflex Save.
If you're allowed 3pp, then you could look into any Psionic class you want to play, and then get the psionic power called Hustle and the Metapsionic Feats Hustle Power and Quicken Power, and Hustle + Hustle Power takes your Action Economy knob up to 11. Quicken Power breaks the knob off.
Anywho, scary stuff aside, as far as choosing an Arcane Caster that is able to do multiple things per round, Magus, Wizard, Arcanist, and Witch are perfect for this. But I would choose just one of them. Don't pair a Witch with Fighter or Barbarian though, as each of these classes compete for Move Actions.I would strongly recommend pairing Magus, Wizard, or Witch with a class that can be Dex-based, because Dex scales well all game. Your AC and Reflex will be essentially maxed as possible, and your initiative will be strong all game.
If you're truly married to Magus or Wizard, I'd recommend a Brawler or Slayer + Wizard or Magus. Cha is a dump stat for Brawlers, Slayers, Magi, and Wizards, and now you're 4/4BAB, 3 Strong Saves, lvl6-9 spells, and d10 HP/level.
Swashbuckler + Arcanist is another good pairing, or Brawler + Witch with Hex Strike Feat might be something to look into as well. Honestly, Witch is really hard to pair with a weapon-based 4/4BAB class outside of Brawler/Monk because Witch competes for Move Actions, and unarmed strike characters can Hex with a Swift Action with Hex Strike.
You might even consider Paladin + Sorcerer, and put your Cha in the clouds to make up for the weak Reflex Save.
If you're allowed 3pp, then you could look into any Psionic class you want to play, and then get the psionic power called Hustle and the Metapsionic Feats Hustle Power and Quicken Power, and Hustle + Hustle Power takes your Action Economy knob up to 11. Quicken Power breaks the knob off.
Yeah, I understand all the scary stuff, it's not my first rodeo. I'm currently playing a Ninja Magus that is off the rails.
However, it looks like we need a full Arcane caster in the next campaign, And pure wizard tends to be the best at that, and I plan on needing to cast a spell every turn. So I want to pair it with something that allows me to cast a spell _AND_ do something else. Which is why the Magus comes into play with Spell combat (I know the to hit sucks, which is why I am looking for other options). But the Ninja Greater invis, giving sneak attack, combined with spell combat leads to some explosive combat rounds. And I'm just not finding the same thing when I limit one side to a full caster. I've considered Mystic Theyurge (which is technically illegal in gestalt) so I can cast 2 spells/round, but with the penalties to it, it doesn't seem worth it either.
3pp is not allowed in our group, only PF1.
Rogues, Ninjas, and other classes that can Stealth easily work really well with Wizard. Get Hellcat Stealth feat at level 6-7, and use your Move Action to re-enter Stealth every round even while being actively viewed albeit at a -10 penalty. You can stop a lot of attacks/spells that have you as a target by re-stealthing and/or re-invis'ing each round.
Cast a spell as a Standard, Move Action to Re-stealth. Next round, Move Action to Move, Cast a Spell as a Standard. At level 9, you could start throwing in Quickened Vanish for a big boost to your Stealth roll.
The only problem with Rogue Wizard is the weak Fort Save, 3/4 bab, and d8 HP.
Tbh based on what you've said, you might consider a Dex-based Slayer + Wizard, and max out Stealth. Now you can do the cast+restealth shenanigans, have d10 HP, 3 strong saves, 4/4 bab, lvl 9 spells, Studied Target gives extra umph to hit, and you get extra feats from Wizard at 5, 10, 15, 20 and Slayer Talents every even level. Having 6d6 Sneak Attack progression and 6 Skill points per level with a maxed out Intelligence score is nothing to sneeze at either. You could even take the Trapfinding Slayer Talent and disable magic traps like a Rogue.
However, it looks like we need a full Arcane caster in the next campaign, And pure wizard tends to be the best at that, and I plan on needing to cast a spell every turn. So I want to pair it with something that allows me to cast a spell _AND_ do something else.
As I mentioned before, gestalt warpriest + wildblooded sorcerer (Celestial/Empyreal bloodline) lets you cast prepared warpriest spells (like divine favor) as swift actions using Fervor starting at level 2, leaving you able to use the rest of your turn to attack, cast another (sorcerer) spell, etc. Celestial/Empyreal sorcerers also use Wis as their arcane casting stat, which reduces MAD.
Pick a race that grants extra sorcerer spells known as an alternate FCB to allow greater breadth/versatility.
The big drawback to a Magus Wizard is that other than spells you really can’t do much. Their spell selection also overlaps quite a bit. I don’t think there is a single spell on the Magus list that is not also on the Wizards list. So, while this does improve you action economy slightly it does not do much else.
Instead of a Magus I would suggest a bard. I know they have different casting stats, but that is not really a problem. Bards have a lot of utility and buff spells that the saving throw does not matter. So all you really need is a high enough CHA to cast your spells. You can get by with a 14 CHA until 13th level, by then you should be able to afford a headband that boost both CHA and INT, or some other CHA boosting item. Since the bard is covering the buff and utility spells that frees up the wizard side to focus on combat.
Starting a bardic performance starts out as a standard action, but at 7th level it becomes a move action, and at 13th level it is a swift action. Your action economy at low levels will not be all that great but as you level up it gets a lot better. At 13th level you can start a performance and cast spell in the same round. When it comes to skills you will have just about everything in the book. The high INT of the wizard combined with the 6 skill points per level is going to mean you will have more skills point than you know what to do with. Your Knowledge skills are going to be sky high with minimal investment.
You could also do something similar with a warpriest and a wizard. This combination will boost your action economy from the start. The warpriests ability to cast buff spells as a swift action will be a considerable boost to your defenses. Again since you are not casting offensive spells you don’t need that high of a WIS. Since you cannot cast wizard spells in combat you might as well take the sacred fist archetype. Don’t bother putting much of anything into STR. The warpriest is to boost you defenses, not your offense. But the increased unarmed damage and extra attacks from flurry of blows does give you more options. This option is stronger when it comes to combat than the bard, but is a lot less useful out of combat.
I think a Magus/Wizard has too much overlap, and won't get you where you want to be, honestly. If you want to be a Gnome, they have a feat called Effortless Trickery that allows you to continue concentration on an Illusion spell as a swift action... this MAY allow dual casting shenanigans otherwise impossible. I doubt you can maintain concentration on more than one spell at the same time, even with Effortless Trickery and Spellsong, but it still opens up opportunities that can't be duplicated [to my knowledge].
I don't know why keep going back to that Magician Bard and the Metamagic Rager-Urban Bloodrager with the Arcane Bloodline. Sure, it be but 6th-level spellcasting, but hear me out...
Full BAB, all good saves, 6+Int skills per level... the Mad Magic feat allows you to cast your Bard spells in Bloodrage, and the Spellsong feat allows you to combine your Bard spells with your Performance. I'm pretty sure you could even Perfom whilst raging due to the Urban Bloodrager's Controlled Bloodrage. You get Improved Counterspell, and get a bunch of fancy Disruptive stuffs to mess with enemy spellcasters. You also get a bunch of stuff to buff allied spellcasters, as well as the option to exclude allies from area effect spells. You get an arcane bonded object, and lots of bonus spells you get to pull from other lists. Blah, blah, blah...
Now for the real meat and potatoes of all this:
Meta-Rage (Su)
At 5th level, a metamagic rager can sacrifice additional rounds of bloodrage to apply a metamagic feat he knows to a bloodrager spell. This costs a number of rounds of bloodrage equal to twice what the spell’s adjusted level would normally be with the metamagic feat applied (minimum 2 rounds). The metamagic rager does not have to be bloodraging to use this ability. The metamagic effect is applied without increasing the level of the spell slot expended, though the casting time is increased as normal. The metamagic rager can apply only one metamagic feat he knows in this manner with each casting. Additionally, when the metamagic rager takes a bloodline feat, he can choose to take a metamagic feat instead.
And:
Metamagic Mastery (Ex): At 14th level, a magician can use performance to apply a metamagic feat to a spell he is about to cast without increasing the casting time. The bard must still expend a higher-level slot to cast this spell. This causes the performance to immediately end. This ability requires audible components.
I will try actually find something useful to post with a Magus/Wizard combo... I'm sure some of those Magus Arcana can be made useful to a Wizard...
The big drawback to a Magus Wizard is that other than spells you really can’t do much. Their spell selection also overlaps quite a bit. I don’t think there is a single spell on the Magus list that is not also on the Wizards list. So, while this does improve you action economy slightly it does not do much else.
I'm not here to tell you that Magus/Wizard is the best option, but it definitely does have some spells that the Wizard doesn't, eg. BLADED DASH.
Regarding the Magus's weaknesses: the Kensai is the obvious choice for Magus archetype. It gives up some casting ability for more martial ability, but by level 6 you can Spell Combat with Wizard spells so that problem goes away. You also get INT-to-AC, so it pairs well as an unarmoured combatant. Assuming you go DEX-based your AC should be fine and the high DEX should shore up your Reflex saves. The Kensai's offensive abilities should easily keep up with the party, especially with the Wizard's expanded casting helping out.
Having said that ...
The d8 hit points are a bit of a problem, and essentially all you're doing here is playing a cranked-up Magus. You're fragile for a front-line combatant, and the INT-to-AC takes a few levels to be worth it, so the first few levels will be more deadly than usual. Those are also the levels where you can't Spell-Combat with Wizard spells, so it's gonna be a rough start. Finally, even though you're an INT-based character you're getting 2+INT skills per level, where almost any other pairing for either class would get them 4+ or better .
In terms of out-of-combat versatility you're probably not getting much here that you couldn't get from either the Magus or the Wizard, but in combat you essentially are playing as a Fighter and a Wizard all at once, which seems like a good bet for Gestalt. It's not 100% covering the usual Gestalt bases, but it's covering enough of them to be decent as long as you understand your limits .
Okay...
For the Wizard half, we're going to be your typical Exploiter-Pact Wizard. We gladly trade away our Arcane Bond and Arcane School for an Arcane Reservoir and Exploiter Exploits, as we can get a Familiar with Magus Arcana. Again, we happily trade away our Scribe Scroll and our Wizard Bonus Feats for Patron Spells and Great Power, Greater Expense, because Magus Bonus Feats can be drawn from those listed as combat, item creation, or metamagic feats, and I like run-on sentences.
For the Magus half, we kind of have to conceed to our Wizard half's inability to not cast in armor. There is the obvious Kensai archetype, and I will get to that later. But fist, there ARE options for armor with zero ASF chance. The Sunsilk Ceremonial Armor has zero ACP and zero ASF chance. It also offers DR 2/bludgeoning against melee attacks.
Now, Kensai Magus does have Diminished Spellcasting, but you're a Wizard. Lol. The Canny Defense ability will add your Intelligence bonus to your AC in addition to your Dexterity [limited to your levels in the class]. Iaijutsu adds your Intelligence bonus to your Initiative. Superior Reflexes later adds your Intelligence bonus to the number of AoO you can make [and it stack with Combat Reflexes]. The offensive stuff like Weapon Focus and Perfect Strike might actually allow you to hit something, too... but we are just going to focus on Dirty Tricks because there is a Magus Arcana for using your Magus levels as your BAB for combat maneuvers. And another Magus Arcana for casting an Enchantment or Illusion spell as a swift action when your succeed at a Dirty Trick combat maneuver. And Magus Arcana are not restricted to Magus spells. Lol. Although, Kensai does get EWP, so any race that can also get EWP could start the game with whip proficiency and scorpion whip proficiency... and Weapon Focus. Not a bad start to a reach Spellstrike build, make use of all those AoO.
Anyways, you can get Wizard Discoveries with Magus Arcana, as well as the aforementioned Familiar. Things like Rod/Wand Mastery/Wielder would be beneficial to a Wizard, too. Lots of metamagic Magus Arcana that, again, do not specify it only can be used with Magus spells. Lol.
Remember, you're a Wizard first. Do Wizard stuff. Build a really good Wizard, as they can hold their own even in a gestalt game. The other half, the Magus half, is literally there to allow access to what your Wizard archetypes traded away. Abuse your Magus Arcana to replace what the Wizard "lost". You have an Arcane Reservoir and Arcane Pool. You have Arcanist Exploits and Magus Arcana. Be a really good Wizard.
Could go all-in on the Magus half, I suppose... be a Sword Binder Wizard and a Bladebound Magus... Sword Binder gives you Sword of the Mage and Telekinetic Sword, which we would be using with the Magus' Blade Blade.
Or just do something bonkers with the Card Caster Magus. Maybe a Divination Wizard? Obviously, a Cartomancer Witch would be a better gestalt with a Card Caster Magus, but we are talking about Witches.
Something else that is kind of interesting would be a Poleiheira Adherent-Pact Wizard and a Living Grimoire Inquisitor. They both would be bonded to the same book, for flavor. They're both Intelligence-based, you end up with the same BAB and saves as a Magus/Wizard. Better skills and variety of spells [being 6/9 divine and 9/9 arcane]. The Inquisitor uses the book as a weapon that does Warpriest damage and can add effects like a Warpriest. It's silly, and fun.
I know that for the most part a spell caster usually wants to crank the DC of their saves, but that is not always the case. If the spells in question are harmless or only cast on the caster you only need your casting stat to be high enough to cast the spell. For a 6/9 caster that means you don’t need more than 16 at 16th level. Unless you are using an extremely low point buy starting out with a 13-14 in your secondary stat should not be that hard. Samsaran give a bonus to INT and WIS so that would work well for the Wizard Warpriest combination. Mystic Past life will get you a couple spells of another classes spell list which would fit for a caster focused character. If you don’t want to play a Samsaran both Aasimar and Changling have alternatives that can boost two casting stats.
This is a gestalt game so the character will still have the full offensive ability of a wizard so will not be lacking in raw power. This actually makes the wizard more powerful because all the wizard spells will be offensive spells. The other class is taking care of the utility and buff spells so that frees up the wizard slots for more fireballs. Since the character is going to be using spells to fight, he does not need full BAB. Most of his spells will either ignore AC or be touch spells. ¾ BAB is more than enough to deliver touch attacks.
So first I want to thank everyone for the input. it's really been great.
Like I said, Magus/wizard is at the top of the list right now. It's fairly easy to be invisible most of the time as a wizard, so attacks will be made against flat footed opponents most of the time so the lower BAB is less critical, and yes, I was thinking about doing one of the ranged magus archetypes, being ranged reduces the d8 issue as you will be attacked less (invisibility helps with this too). with both being arcane casters it reduces MAD, and gives a TON of spells to cast via spell combat. And yes, it will be a Wizard first, and a magus second. Spell combat to enhance action economy, and maybe do some cool Arcana tricks.
I have also been looking at Warpriest/Wizard or Sorcerer, but it looks like there will be another War priest in the party already and didn't want to do double duty, but it may be the way to go.
I'm really hoping another player will take an arcane caster and ill that role. If they do, I have a Fighter/Paladin vital strike/cleave build that looks pretty nasty, but we might already have too many fighter as it is.
this is the preliminary party build (all gestalt):
Paladin/Rogue
Brawler/Shifter
Warpriest/Fighter or Ranger
Bloodrager/Ranger
Ninja/Inquisitor
And then whatever I play, so there's a lack of Arcane in the party.... which is why I am looking at Full arcane casters.
But, there's a possibility one of them could switch to Arcane caster, we haven't had our session 0 yet.
So, if you want to use a dual class prC in a gestalt game… a good houserule that would allow them without greatly increasing character power for taking one is to require all class based qualifications be within a single leveling path. Essential you can’t take a dual class prC unless you would have qualified for it as a non-gestalt character, and your second leveling path doesn’t exist as far as the prC progression is concerned. The gestalt games I’ve played in have used a variation of this houserule and it increased options without adding any extra power over what a normal gestalt character would have.
An alternative house rule that I’ve see is to count dual class prCs as being two classes so when you take a level in one you take that level on both sides of your gestalt but progress as just one level… this ruling highly discourages such prC because it ultimately causes you to fall behind the rest of the party in power with every additional level you take of the prC.
You have a lot of melee in your group, you might consider going Gun Chemist + Wizard. Both classes are Int-based and you get Alchemical Ordnance instead of Bombs, so if you don't feel like casting you can kablam a fool for Xd6+Int damage. You get 3 strong saves, d8 health, 4 + Int skills, 3/4 BAB (but you're attacking Touch AC, so you'll barely notice). And you get Mutagens and the Alchemy spell list! Take Infusion early and hand out some True Strike extracts to your buddies :) Your group looks like it will put out some serious hurty-hurt, so you might want to go Divination (Foresight subschool) to get that juicy Initiative bonus and put out early crowd control; the free d20 roll 3+Int rounds per day and the +2/-2 Luck aura would fit well with this build (and party) as well. If you're not wanting to get a school, you might even consider going Exploiter Wizard for Potent Magic for a little more umph on your DC's and using Dimensional Slide if you get into danger. No AoO's for moving away :)
The only regrettable thing about this pairing is the d8 health, but you can make up for that with Toughness or getting higher Con, or make a Con Mutagen :)
Gun Chemist + Wizard is definitely a good build… the alchemical ordnance’s go a long ways to free up your spell slots for more utility spell casting… you can focus your extract preparation to more personal buffs if you don’t want to pick up infusion (which with full caster wizard you don’t really need), while your wizard spells are geared towards gendering foes and buffing the party. Should you need to do some blasting, you have the high power that is a firearm with explosive ammunition… if you are feeling especially daring, take the Spell Slinger archetype and cast some of your spells through your gun…
Gun Chemist + Wizard is definitely a good build… the alchemical ordnance’s go a long ways to free up your spell slots for more utility spell casting… you can focus your extract preparation to more personal buffs if you don’t want to pick up infusion (which with full caster wizard you don’t really need), while your wizard spells are geared towards gendering foes and buffing the party. Should you need to do some blasting, you have the high power that is a firearm with explosive ammunition… if you are feeling especially daring, take the Spell Slinger archetype and cast some of your spells through your gun…
That sounds like a fun build, but Sadly firearms are not allowed in our games. (yet)
Well it takes a little longer to setup… but Grenadier Alchemist is a nice alternative… you would want to take Fast Bombs as soon as possible so that you can throw multiple bombs per round, and if you play a goblin you can get a discovery that lets you infuse arrows and bolts with your bombs… effectively getting the same end result as the Gun Chemist but without requiring firearms.
Like I said, Magus/wizard is at the top of the list right now.... and yes, I was thinking about doing one of the ranged magus archetypes.
...
this is the preliminary party build (all gestalt):
Paladin/Rogue
Brawler/Shifter
Warpriest/Fighter or Ranger
Bloodrager/Ranger
Ninja/Inquisitor
For a ranged magus/"wizard" (witch) gestalt, you might find this example useful for inspiration or a starting point for a damage/debuffing combo.
I would not worry too much about having another warpriest in the party. From the looks of it the other warpriest is focusing on combat. He will probably be casting spells to boost his offensive capabilities. My suggestion was to use the warpriest to boost your defenses. Where his is casting Divine Favor, you are going for Shield of Faith. Out of combat spells would be another thing that he may not want to bother with. The fact that you are willing to handle those would mean he can load up on more combat spells instead of having to memorize the utility spells.
Archetypes also significantly change how a class function. Sacred Fist works extremely well for your character because as a wizard you are going to want to avoid using armor. The AC bonus from sacred fist is works out being better for you. Getting two stats to AC and a scaling bonus is really good for someone who is not wearing armor. The Unarmed strike gives you a last-ditch way of protecting yourself.
Looking over the composition of your party I am going to change my other recommendation from bard to skald. With that many melee combatants in the party raging song becomes incredibly powerful. At low levels you will need to spend a standard action to activate it, but once you hit 7th level you are granting all your allies rage and casting a spell. Being able to grant rage powers on top of that is even better. At 8th level the bonus to STR and CON increases to +4. Spell Kenning is another great ability for your character. Being able to cast any spell from the bard, cleric or wizard list without having to memorize it or even know the spell firs in with the idea of being a master of magic. Take this class and the whole party just got a lot stronger.
Shaman/Skald could be pretty decent.
You could have the Lore/Arcane Enlightenment Wandering Spirit/Hex, and Spell Kenning... could be a Samsaran with Mystic Past Lives, and take Dreamed Secrets later... that should cover any spells you might need. The Battle Spirit uses Charisma for its DC's and uses per day, which would go well with the Charisma-based Skald half. The Tribe Spirit also uses Charisma for its DC's and uses per day, and it brings a form Tactician/sharing teamwork feats to the table.
Gun Chemist + Wizard is definitely a good build… the alchemical ordnance’s go a long ways to free up your spell slots for more utility spell casting… you can focus your extract preparation to more personal buffs if you don’t want to pick up infusion (which with full caster wizard you don’t really need), while your wizard spells are geared towards gendering foes and buffing the party. Should you need to do some blasting, you have the high power that is a firearm with explosive ammunition… if you are feeling especially daring, take the Spell Slinger archetype and cast some of your spells through your gun…That sounds like a fun build, but Sadly firearms are not allowed in our games. (yet)well that takes out my previous recommendation, Musket Master Eldritch Archer // Wizard.
But if the rule is “No Firearms.”, does that still allow Bolt Ace (crossbow, no guns) Gunslinger? Eldritch Archer with a few Bolt Ace levels works pretty well too.
The current rule is no firearms, we've politely not attempted to build a gunslinger (bolt ace), but it might be available with GM permission.
I've considered a gunslinger (bolt ace) eldritch archer/wizard or warpriest.
Eldritch Archer and Hexcrafter archetypes are compatible with each other. Hex Crafter's Accursed Strike doesn't officially modify, change, or replace Spellstrike, it just adds curse spells to the list of spells you can deliver via Spellstrike. So, what if you went Magus20/Wizard20 and took those archetypes, and started using your Curse Spells with Spellstrike as well as getting hexes, or even Magus20/Witch20 and double down on the curse/hexes?
What about Bardic Masterpieces? Many replicate spell effects, and any that only take a standard action actually take less as you level up (move action at 7, swift at 13). Does this have potential to make something similar to dual casting possible?
What about Bardic Masterpieces? Many replicate spell effects, and any that only take a standard action actually take less as you level up (move action at 7, swift at 13). Does this have potential to make something similar to dual casting possible?
As more people mention Bard, he more I want to take a look at it. I come from many years of D&D (began with 1st edition in the early 80's) and back in those days, Bard was a garbage class, and I have yet to break that mentality. Bu as someone mentioned, that many melee characters being given bardic inspiration would be pretty potent.
There's a couple downsides to Bard + Wizard. Bards use Cha, which is typically a dump stat for Wizards, and this pairing forces you to get a 16+ Cha when you'd really like to be putting Cha at 7 to 9. Also, you're d8 HP, 3/4 BAB, and have a weak Fortitude Save.
There's a couple downsides to Bard + Wizard. Bards use Cha, which is typically a dump stat for Wizards, and this pairing forces you to get a 16+ Cha when you'd really like to be putting Cha at 7 to 9. Also, you're d8 HP, 3/4 BAB, and have a weak Fortitude Save.
For Gestalt we're playing 32 point build, just to make MAD a little easier to handle. the d8 hp is easy enough to overcome, as is the Fort Save. and the 3/4 BAB ceases to be an issue once the Wizard can cast Greater invisibility.
Tbh, a 32 point build changes everything. What archetypes were you thinking for Bard and Wizard? What races are you considering?
I think expectation that Greater Invisibility will help you hit things reliably isn’t accurate; enemy flat footed AC is often as high as regular AC. Giants, Dragons, Undead, Oozes, Aberrations, Constructs, Outsiders etc.
I'm currently playing a Ninja/Magus that does the Greater Invisibility trick for combat, and for the most part have no problems hitting, especially once I am able to turn on some black blade/arcana abilities.
I way more often find things immune to Crits or sneak than have high flat footed AC's, or even worse, ones which have other senses, such as tremor sense, that negate invisibility altogether.
Tbh, a 32 point build changes everything. What archetypes were you thinking for Bard and Wizard? What races are you considering?
I haven't dug that far into it yet, it's only been the last couple of days that's it been under consideration.
Suggestions would be welcome
I still don't know what you actually want to do with your character in any given round of combat...
You mentioned being restricted/limited to the same action economy as a non-gestalt spellcaster. You mentioned dual casting multiple spells in the same round...
Any two spells in the same round? Two specific spells in the same round? What is the end goal for setting off multiple magical effects in the same round?
Bardic Performance can replicate spells and works off a different set of actions. Channel Energy, Fervor, Grit, Ki, Mercies, Panache... they all offer somewhat magical effects that could probably be combined with spells.
What is your goal?
Another thing to consider with Gestalt is gestalting with a class that has a heavy focus on a companion creature… Summoner for an Eidolon, Primal Hunter for an animal companion with Eidolon Evolutioms, Spiritualist or a Phantom, Undeadlord Cleric for a Skeletal Servant, Construct Rider Alchemist for a Construct, Humuncolist Alchemist for a Homunculist, or even Cavalier for a Mount… there is even the option of Instructor Wizard for a Cohort from level 1…
These options become very effective in gestalt since having a whole second class enables you to more freely focus your selective class features from the companion granting class to empowering the companion while using your other class to boost your own abilities.
I still don't know what you actually want to do with your character in any given round of combat...
You mentioned being restricted/limited to the same action economy as a non-gestalt spellcaster. You mentioned dual casting multiple spells in the same round...
Any two spells in the same round? Two specific spells in the same round? What is the end goal for setting off multiple magical effects in the same round?
Bardic Performance can replicate spells and works off a different set of actions. Channel Energy, Fervor, Grit, Ki, Mercies, Panache... they all offer somewhat magical effects that could probably be combined with spells.
What is your goal?
bottom line, I'm trying to work out a way to cast an arcane spell AND do any other worthwhile action each round, or have some other synergy that is on par with some of the characters in our current campaign, while having the spell access of a 9th level caster (basically more than a spell each round).
We currently have a Monk/barbarian that gets many attacks per round, at a barbarians BAB, plus all the bonuses that come with rage, so lots of strong hits (ki focus 9 ring sword so all the benefits of the monk attacks, plus all the benefits of 2 handed weapon), combined with rage, we have an Oradin that can quick channel or lay on hands, plus cast a spell, then there's a Rogue/monk, lots of attacks from invisibility, all with sneak attack, plus my Ninja/Magus, again attacking from invisibility to get sneak, combined with spell combat, so full attack action, plus sneak attack damage, plus casting a spell every round.
So yeah, I want a 9th level arcane caster than can cast a spell each round AND do another worthwhile action, be it spell combat, casting 2 spell, quick channel or anything. just more than casting a single spell.
Also, we have a restriction on characters with pets (so no summoner's or hunters with animal companion builds). Familiars that are more subdued are ok.
If you are willing to wait for the build to come online a bard or better yet a skald sounds like the answer to your problem. Until 7th level your 1st round will probably be starting a performance or raging song. After that it is a free action to maintain it. Once you hit 7th level it costs a move action to start it which allows you to cast and start your buff in the same round. If you make it to 13th level starting the performance or raging song is a swift action. With a 32 point build you can easily start with an 18 INT and 16 CHA.
Personally, I would go with skald over bard for this character. Skald will boost your fortitude saves and that is more important than reflex saves. It also gives proficiency with martial weapons. Weapon combat may not be the focus of this character, but having more options is never bad. At worst you could pick up a bow and use that for when you don’t want to cast spells.
A Winter-born changeling would give you a +2 to both INT and CHA. With that and the 32 point buy you could get a 20 INT and a 16 CHA starting and still have fairly decent scores in the other stats. Or you could go 18 in both which would allow you to use more combat oriented bard spells. Bards don’t get a lot of evocation, but do get a lot of illusion and enchantments spells.
If you are willing to wait for the build to come online a bard or better yet a skald sounds like the answer to your problem. Until 7th level your 1st round will probably be starting a performance or raging song. After that it is a free action to maintain it. Once you hit 7th level it costs a move action to start it which allows you to cast and start your buff in the same round. If you make it to 13th level starting the performance or raging song is a swift action. With a 32 point build you can easily start with an 18 INT and 16 CHA.
Personally, I would go with skald over bard for this character. Skald will boost your fortitude saves and that is more important than reflex saves. It also gives proficiency with martial weapons. Weapon combat may not be the focus of this character, but having more options is never bad. At worst you could pick up a bow and use that for when you don’t want to cast spells.
A Winter-born changeling would give you a +2 to both INT and CHA. With that and the 32 point buy you could get a 20 INT and a 16 CHA starting and still have fairly decent scores in the other stats. Or you could go 18 in both which would allow you to use more combat oriented bard spells. Bards don’t get a lot of evocation, but do get a lot of illusion and enchantments spells.
our campaigns go 1-20, so hitting those levels is not a problem. Skald or bard combined with wizard has come up a lot and seems to be something that fits my desire. I will try to look into a build when I have some free time. Are there any suggestions for archetypes?
For a Skald I would stick with a vanilla skald. The things that will be most useful in this class are inspired rage, bardic knowledge, rage powers, so any archetypes that trade those away should be avoided. All the other abilities except possibly scribe scroll are useful. Scribe scroll will be useful, but you may be getting it from the wizard side.
If you go bard, there are a couple of good options. Archivist replaces inspire courage with Naturalist, which is actually better. It is an insight bonus instead of a moral bonus. Moral bonuses are fairly common, so this increases the chance of it stacking. The other abilities of the archivist are also decent. The Filidh also replaces inspire courage with Echoes of Nature’s song that grants an insight bonus to reflex saves and AC. It also grants a lot of divination related abilities which seems to be appropriate. Studious librarian might be worth a look. Its ability to use spells from other lists and scribe scroll are similar to the skald. Other than those I would stick with a standard bard.
The Exploiter archetype has already been mentioned, but this character is going to have a good CHA so you might want to consider going with an actual arcanist instead. School savant and blood arcanist would grant you abilities similar to a wizard or sorcerer. If you do decided to stay with Wizard I would probably skip an archetype.
As I mentioned earlier the bard spell list (which the skald also uses) has a lot of enchantment and illusion spells. That makes them the obvious choice for opposition schools. This allows you to focus the wizard spells on combat. The Addmixture sub school would be the obvious choice for this.
I would suggest Archaeologist Bard + Exploiter Wizard for archetypes.
If you want a school, I'd go Vanilla Wizard instead. As far as your school choice, it depends on whether you want to maximize Utility, Blasting, or Crowd Control. If you want to maximize Blasting, Admixture Evocation is the obvious choice, CC would either be Enchanting/Illusion or Divination (Foresight).
If you choose to go Crowd Control route, you might consider tossing everything I've been rambling on about ideal stats/saves in the trash, and consider one of the best Illusionist builds I've ever seen created by Cartmanbeck. Cartmanbeck's Illusionist
My favorite combination:
Take 1 level of Heavens Oracle before starting into Sorcerer. Take the Awesome Display revelation, which treats enemies as if they had a number of hit dice LESS equal to your Charisma modifier for illusion [pattern] spells such as color spray and loathsome veil.At 2nd level, your color sprays will knock ANYTHING out, and as you level up and continue adding to your Cha with level upgrades and magic items, it just keeps getting better. You can easily one-shot a boss by starting with loathsome veil which causes creatures to be nauseated (move action only) and then run up and color spray them to knock them out.
Obviously you want to take Spell Focus and Improved Spell Focus (Illusion). I've also found Persistent Spell (metamagic) to be more than worth it, as it forces them to make a second save if they make the first one.
Effortless Trickery is also very nice, which allows you to maintain an illusion that normally requires concentration as a Swift action instead of a Move action. Normally, when we start a combat I'll drop a loathsome veil to nauseate all the enemies before they come in range, then use a Threatening major image in a place which will provide flanking to Rogue-type characters, then if I can catch several enemies in a color spray I do that.
Let me know if you'd like to see my whole build (She's currently a level 10 Sylvan Sorcerer/1 Heavens Oracle with a spinosaurus companion, almost ready for retirement in Pathfinder Society play.)
Alright boys and girls, here you go:Nalshene, Trade Princess
Female gnome Sylvan Sorcerer 10 / Heavens Oracle 1
CG Small humanoid (gnome)
Init +5; Senses low-light vision; Perception +11-----Defense-----
AC 13, touch 13, flat-footed 12 (+1 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 size)
hp 59 (10d6 + 1d8 + 11) [add False Life]
Fort +5, Ref +5, Will +9 (+2 vs. fear)
Defensive abilities eternal hope (1/day, re-roll a 1 on a d20)-----Offense-----
Speed 15 ft. (lame curse)
Melee cestus +4 (1d4-2) or sickle +4 (1d6-2)
Ranged ranged touch spell +7 (by spell)Gnome spell-like abilities (CL 11th, concentration +19)
1/day - dancing lights, ghost sound, prestidigitation, speak with animalsBloodline spell-like abilities (CL 10th, concentration +18)
At will - greater invisibility (9 rounds/day)Sorcerer spells known (CL 10th, concentration +18)
5th (4/day) - shadow evocation (DC 25), Persistent loathsome veil (DC 23)
4th (7/day) - beast shape II, poison, shocking image, Threatening minor image (DC 23), Persistent hypnotic pattern (DC 22)
3rd (8/day) - deep slumber (DC 21), loathsome veil (DC23), fly, major image (DC 23), Threatening minor image (DC 22), Persistent color spray (DC 21)
2nd (9/day) - burst of radiance (DC 20), create pit (DC 20), false life, hypnotic pattern (DC 22), minor image (DC 22), Threatening silent image (DC 21)
1st (10/day) - color spray (DC 21), detect evil, illusion of calm (DC 21), mage armor, silent image (DC 21), stumble gap (DC 19), summon monster I
0th (at will) - acid splash, daze (DC 18), detect magic, light, mage hand, read magic, unwitting ally (DC 18)
Bloodline Fey [Sylvan]Oracle spells known (CL 1st, concentration +9)
1st (5/day) - ant haul, cure light wounds, tap inner beauty
0th (at will) - detect poison, enhanced diplomacy, guidance, stabilize
Mystery Heavens-----Statistics-----
Str 6, Dex 12, Con 12, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 26
Base Atk +5, CMB +2, CMD 13
Feats Boon Companion, Effortless Trickery, Eschew Materials, Improved Initiative, Persistent Spell, Spell Focus (Illusion), Threatening Illusion, Versatile Spontaneity
Traits Two-World Magic (unwitting ally), Eastern Mysteries (from Guide to Pathfinder Society Play), Eyes and Ears of the City (from Extra Trait boon)
Skills Appraise +10, Bluff +17, Diplomacy +29, Fly +5, Handle Animal +19, Heal +3, Intimidate +14, Kn. Arcana +15, Kn. History +6, Kn. Nature +6, Kn. Planes +6, Kn. Religion +6, Linguistics +4, Perception +11, Spellcraft +14, UMD +14
Languages Common, Draconic, Gnome, Osiriani, Sylvan, Thassilonian, Varisian
SQ bloodline powers (animal companion [spinosaurus], woodland stride, fleeting glance), academician (Kn. Arcana), curse (lame), eternal hope, gnome magic, gnome weapon familiarity, revelations (awesome display), prestige awards and vanities (caravan, expert entrepreneur, master of trade, trade prince, underground ring)
Combat gear spring-loaded wrist sheaths (wands of cure light wounds and shield), vermin repellant (5), dweomer's essence (2), minor rod of Selective Spell, minor rod of Piercing Spell, mask of the tiger's eye, potions [feather step, bristle], scrolls [mage armor (4), stumble gap (2), unprepared combatant (2), expeditious retreat (2), grease (2), bull's strength, bear's endurance, blur (2), reduce person (12), create pit (2), wind wall, false life (2), color spray (2), gravity bow (2), burning hands (4), major image (1), comprehend languages (2), animal aspect, ill omen, magic fang, haste (2), true seeing, distracting cacophany, honeyed tongue, invisibility sphere, tongues (2), remove blindness/deafness (2)], wands [shield, enlarge person, protection from evil, web, summon monster I (CL3), cure light wounds, lesser restoration, dispel magic (CL 14), gaseous form, invisibility purge]
Other gear headband of Cha +4, cloak of resistance +1, mnemonic vestments, ring of protection +1, ring of spell knowledge type III, ring of feather falling, meridian belt, handy haversack, page of spell knowledge (create pit), page of spell knowledge (stumble gap), bracelet of bargaining, wayfinder (jade and diamond encrusted enhancements containing cracked pink and green sphere ioun stone), various sundry itemsNarshala, spinosaurus companion
Effective druid level 11
Female spinosaurus
N Large animal
Init +3; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +5-----Defense-----
AC 28, flat-footed 25, touch 12 (+5 armor, +3 Dex, +11 natural, -1 size) (+2 vs. demons)
hp 76 (9d8 + 36)
Fort +11, Ref +10, Will +4 (+4 vs. enchantments)
Defensive abilities evasion, DR 2/- (only vs. demons)-----Offense-----
Speed 30 ft., swim 30 ft.
Melee bite +11 (1d8+14) and 2 claws +12 (1d6+14)
or bite +13 (1d8+14)
or claw +14 (1d8+14)
Space 10 ft. Reach 5 ft.-----Statistics-----
Str 30, Dex 16, Con 19, Int 3, Wis 13, Cha 3
Base Atk +6, CMB +17 (+23 bull rush), CMD 30 (36 vs. bull rush, 34 vs. trip)
Feats Improved Bull Rush, Greater Bull Rush, Narrow Frame, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (claw)
Skills Acrobatics +9, Climb +14, Escape Artist +4, Fly +7, Perception +5, Stealth +3, Swim +22 Racial bonuses +8 Swim
Other gear +1 Demon-defiant studded leather, cloak of resistance +1, menacing amulet of mighty fistsEdit: A couple things I put on here that are slightly "non-standard" on NPC blocks: I included metamagic versions of spells that I use often in the "spells known" section, so they don't actually count as separate spells known.
As you can see, I have a TON of scrolls that I've picked up throughout the many PFS sessions I've played with her and either forgotten to use or just not needed at the time. Her armor class is obviously super low, but I keep mage amor and false life on her pretty much all the time (10 hours a day for one cast pretty much takes care of it). I also cast shield on the animal companion often for an additional +4 to her armor class.
The most important part of the build, and what makes her devastating to enemies, is the revelation "Awesome Display" which treats enemies as if they had your Cha mod fewer hit dice for the effects of illusion [pattern] spells, which means things like hypnotic pattern, loathsome veil, and color spray.
I also like to drop the Threatening images on the other side of enemies when Narshala is beating on them, since she gets an additional +2 flanking bonus thanks to her Menacing amulet of mighty fists.
Maybe create a Gestalted version of this Knock Out specialist, and go Heavens Oracle20/Sorcerer20.
You could even do this Heavens Oracle20/Fey(Sylvan) Bloodline Sorcerer20 as a Kitsune instead of a Gnome, and invest heavily into bumping up Enchantment and Illusion simultaneously.
This build will be strong starting right at level 1, but your target for a "coming of age" or "stars align" level should be level 8. With Kitsune Sorc 1/4 FCB, SpellFocus/GSF in Enchantment, +4 Headband of Charisma, you're looking at Enchantment DCs between 24 to 29 DC by level 8.
Kitsunes get +2 Cha, so you start with 20Cha, put your 1 point at lvl 4 and 8 point in Cha, and save up 16,000gp for a +4 Cha Headband prior to level 8. WBL level 8 is 33,000gp so it shouldn't be a problem.
Level 8:
Level4 Compulsion Spell:
10 + 8ChaMod + 4ConfusionSpLvl + 1KitsuneRacial + 1SpellFocus + 1GreaterSpF +2 8/8FCB + 2FeyBloodlineArcana(Compulsion) = 29DC
Level1 Enchantment Spell(non-compulsion)
10 + 8ChaMod + 1SpLvl + 1KitsuneRacial + 1SpellFocus + 1GreaterSpF +2 8/8FCB = 24DC
And with an 8 Mod in Cha, the enemy targets of your Illusion [Pattern] spells will be considered 8 HD lower for consideration of the effects they bestow. Which means Loathsome Veil, Hypnotic Pattern, and Color Spray are going to do some serious work, and now you're a dual-threat CC'er.
And you get an Animal Companion!
============================
Downsides of this pairing:
d8 HP, 3/4 BAB, weak Fort/Reflex saves
Upsides of this pairing:
Level9 Divine and Arcane spells, you're a crowd control god, animal companion, Strong Will Save, Party Face or backup Face, Kitsunes are +2 Dex/Cha, -2 Str and you're solely dependent on Cha, so you can use the extra points from your 32pt buy to beef up your Dex/Con to make up for the weak F/R saves and d8 HP.
Could do it as a Nagaji Mesmerist/Oracle, too.
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Archaeologist trades away all performances for a personal luck bonus. The kinds of defeats the purpose in taking bard as the second class. The Idea was that he would eventually be able to start a performance and cast a spell in the same round. The party already has a paladin/rogue and a ninja/inquisitor so taking archaeologist would be redundant.
You cannot cast spells while under raging song, but the skald does not actually have to have it affect him. Each ally chooses if they want to accept it. You count as your own ally so can choose not to be affect by it. This is more a buff for the rest of the party than for the character. The Idea is that the character buffs the whole party and cast spells at the same time. With 5 other combat focused characters buffing the whole party is incredibly effective.
The most effective character is one that is not only optimized themselves, but also optimizes the rest of the party. So far there is very little the other party members are doing to boost each other. About the only character doing anything to boost the rest of the party is the paladins and his auras. Too me that is actually more important than having an arcane caster. By going with bard or skald and wizard the character is filling multiple roles that the party is lacking.
What about EXEMPLAR BRAWLER? Bardic Performance for that move-action goodness, but you get Full BAB, good Fort and Reflex saves, d10 HP and 4+INT skill points per level.
You can also use your Move Action to give yourself defensive feats if necessary, and handing out Teamwork Feats could occasionally be more useful than a spell.
Do you guys have an archer?
If not, the Arrowsong Minstrel can ranged spellstrike with arrows, and Inspire Courage for your allies... a Tuned Bowstring makes it so you don't even need to burn rounds of Performance.
Gestalt with a Admixture School Savant Arcanist, or a Sorcerer... you could bow, blast, and buff simultaneously.