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Discomfort and suffering are subjective to the person inflicted. To nearly all people the mere presence of a cold draft in a room would be presented as discomfort but for my mother, it would cause true suffering.
Also, I don't really think that bringing alignment into this discussion really has much merit as that is a codified mechanical thing that does not speak on this topic so no matter what every opinion on this subject will effectively be equivalent to one another in validity.
This goes doubly so if we are trying to talk about "real life" good and evil since universally accepted definitions of what that even is not actually a thing nor can it really be said that it even exists at all given that it cannot be measured or compared against any baseline "neutral" state.
There may not be many threads opened since the start of this year but I must say that I am very much appreciating this one so far, best thread of 2022 IMO.
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So a little kid draws a picture. In the moment of creation, that kid is REALLY proud of that picture. Mom posts it on the kitchen cabinet. Next day, kid draws another picture. Mom posts that one too. <wash-rinse-repeat> Ten years go by.
Or in other words, are Shelynite clerics who become parents basically condemned to be hoarders?
I see no flaws with this interpretation or the ensuing implications. That said, there is probably some provision for allowing art to resign its status, perhaps leaving it to the original artist to decide when they want to throw it out. Alternatively, they could scrapbook the kid's pictures into a childhood memories journal. Finally, of course, Shelynites accept art being destroyed to create new art--if they have old art that no one wants to keep anymore, they can always transform it into new art.
The life of a Shelynite is about creation, creativity, and looking for beauty in unexpected places.
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Yeah, I like this thread. Huge palette cleanser after the alignment threads.
After getting the clarification, I think that Raven is using "stories that cause suffering" to refer to authorial intent to cause harm--such as encouraging evil acts or acts of self-harm. That's a slippery line, but I can certainly think of works in that category that Shelyn might not care for. She'd hate A Serbian Film, for example.
That said, controversial take: I do not think she'd have any issue with The Human Centipede. Art that deliberately seeks to offend and shock is still art, and still takes skill and intentionality. Same goes for slasher films and intentionally obnoxious puns.
I prefer to think of the gods as fairly inhuman entities that embody their portfolio, which is why I don't think Shelyn would go "ew, yucky" at anything that wasn't actually morally harmful.
Also worth considering: One of the central premises of Undertale, possibly one of the most Shelyn-friendly video games I can imagine, is that you have to be willing to let things go--including works of art, and including the game itself--and that refusing to do so can ultimately harm the things you cling to so tightly.
So I think Shelyn's okay with mandalas.
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One thing to keep in mind that Modern Art was, to a very significant extent, caused by modern technology (especially photography).
Would a world without photography have ever moved beyond the artistic standards of the Renaissance, the Group of Seven, etc?
Would the Shelyn of Pathfinder have the same tastes as the Shelyn of Starfinder? Perhaps she too has changed with the times?
Would building brutalist buildings be anathema to Shelyn?
In terms of the intersection of "art" and "suffering" is that while Kuthites are not encouraged to go out and harm Shelynites, but making art that is deeply, deeply uncomfortable is a good way for Kuthites to taunt Shelynites.
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Incidentally, there is a lot of "minimalist" art that involves way more effort and thought than many actually think. Abstract Painting, Blue is an especially interesting example.
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Would building brutalist buildings be anathema to Shelyn?
Not necessarily I believe. After all, naked concrete allows to, for example, treat the surface in a way to show pattern, possibly even pictures.
This is brutalist architecture, and yet..
Edit: Also, 'brutalist' doesn't come from 'brutal', but rather from the French phrases béton brut "raw concrete" and art brut "raw art".
Here's a blog series on Brutalism that I think is neat. It's an art form, in its own way, but I get where Ventnor's coming from.
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True, but "cheap" and "easy" are artistic constraints, not inherently anti-art. Many brutalist architects believed that "cheap" and "easy" architecture was a social good, and made it their priority to work out how to make cheap, easy buildings well.
There can be beauty in working within limitations, though. :)
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I think the thing about brutalism is that this is just a point about how tastes change over time, and "buildings" (particularly sturdy ones) are things that tend to massively outlast both fads and artistic movements.
Like a better critique of brutalism than "it ugly" is that most of these buildings were designed in a less energy conscious time and need considerable retrofitting in terms of insulation and HVAC.
ngl this thread is awesome
"Would Shelyn support brutalism?" is a genuinely amazingly evocative question. I think she would, but in a sort of sad way, because she sees the beauty of the dreams of the architects but also sees the complicated results, and the complicated context behind brutalism becoming popular to begin with.
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ngl this thread is awesome
"Would Shelyn support brutalism?" is a genuinely amazingly evocative question. I think she would, but in a sort of sad way, because she sees the beauty of the dreams of the architects but also sees the complicated results, and the complicated context behind brutalism becoming popular to begin with.
"Support" seems too strong a word, more like "accept" since I don't think the practical aspects would hold much appeal, and that leaves a lot of IMO grand yet barren content. So as art itself I just can't see her promoting it, except maybe as a backdrop to contrast with more vivid and creative art. Or heck, maybe the acoustics make for great musical venues. :-)
Then again, as a cosmic being maybe she finds brutalism refreshing though given dwarves (and other societies which dwell in stone) exist, maybe she's long been tired of it. I wonder if she can even feel some of the fundamental worth of art, i.e. freshness, shock, surprise, etc.?
On a tangential note, I imagine that Shelyn would probably support fire fighting brigades, as a means of saving beautiful buildings from burning down. Though, obviously the fire fighters shouldn't unduly risk themselves, because dying would be even more of an anathema.
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This is probably showing my age, but a Volunteer Fire Department dedicated to the goddess of art and beauty is giving me serious Serious of Unfortunate Events vibes.
Architecture is a really interesting place for a Shelynite to operate, since at some point buildings need to be replaced by other buildings. There's a lot of reasons for this like "disrepair" or "this is supposed to be a functional building which is insufficient for current needs" but one of them is invariably society's tastes change and people are going to look at a building in an outdated style and think it's ugly for whatever reason.
So how does a Shelynite handle "we're going to knock down the courthouse that was built in one style and put up a new one in a different style" (that may also be bigger, have more lighting, be easier to heat and cool, whatever.) Like it should be totally possible to have a Shelynite who thinks like neoclassical architecture (or the more recent revival thereof whose name I don't know) is gauche, adherents of the goddess of art and beauty are still allowed to have opinions, but how would one go about beautifying their city via architecture?
Shelynites are explicitly allowed to eliminate old art to make new art, so it should be fine, within reason.
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Been working on some similar PCs with Kerkamoth as one of the main deities under consideration. I think it'd be funny to frame Kerkamoth's "clean cluttered spaces" Edict as a penchant for clearing out for renovation. The FW warhammer fits for removing the Golarion equivalent of drywall. "Yeah, we're gonna need to bring in a Disintegrate here, and here."
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"That's not clutter, it's art!"
"So?
"Wuh, wuh, wuh?? Art's eternal."
"We shouldn't try to preserve things indefinitely."
"With art we should, we most definitely should."
"Nope. Cannot do."
"Well then I'll be doing the doing."
(bickering intensifies until they remember their mutual love for mandalas)
Ctc. Ntl. party member thinks to themself how they thought they'd be the one to fracture the party, not the NG (or even LG) & LN members. I could see the CN person reminding them, "Remember that time you two fought over artsy clutter? What a hoot."
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I think Shelyn anathema contains the solution to this debate: "destroy art or allow it to be destroyed, unless saving a life or pursuing greater art".
Pursuing greater art... Art is a constant process of old and new. The sketches are destroyed to allow the final piece of art to emerge. Your kids drawing are just the blossoms of its artistic ability, the new ones replace the old ones as the new ones are greater art. And so on...
I think Shelyn is deeply aware of the process of artistic creation and would never love a world cluttered with old pieces of art.
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I think quite a bit of this is going to be very group specific.
Art, as defined by Shelyn, is very very likely to be very close to Art as defined by the group (especially the GM).
If the group are a bunch that think that a banana taped to a wall is insanely stupid (like myself and at least 1 group I'm part of) and NOT art then Shelyn would also likely NOT consider that Art.
If the group considers brutalist architecture to be Art then so will Shelyn.
This entire conversation is quite interesting in exploring those limits but I very much doubt that the opinions being expressed represent anything approximating all tables. At many tables, great Art is the Mona Lisa, not a banana taped to the wall
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Shelynites are explicitly allowed to eliminate old art to make new art, so it should be fine, within reason.
I think Shelyn anathema contains the solution to this debate: "destroy art or allow it to be destroyed, unless saving a life or pursuing greater art".
Pursuing greater art... Art is a constant process of old and new. The sketches are destroyed to allow the final piece of art to emerge. Your kids drawing are just the blossoms of its artistic ability, the new ones replace the old ones as the new ones are greater art. And so on...
I think Shelyn is deeply aware of the process of artistic creation and would never love a world cluttered with old pieces of art.
*Raises index finger to his lips and makes hushing sounds*
Hush you two, lest you risk destroying the work of art that is my thread.
/jest
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I'd be pretty disappointed in a Shelyn that only cares about old, expensive art done in a traditional style. Art is an important way to communicate, and sometimes that is done by being unconventional. It's part of why art is important.
I'm sure that "is this art?" is a big question of discussion amongst her church, but it's at least something that can be given the additional lens of how Shelyn would view it.
- Does the creator consider it art? This is probably a big one. If the creator considers it art, then disagreeing would be very serious. People being told that what they do isn't really art is often used to silence people speaking out against something. There are a few guidelines in place that limit the abuse of this- people are considered above art, so no harming unwilling people to make more art.
- Have people interpreted it as art even if the creator hasn't? Not terribly common, but it can happen.
- On the other side, is it hurting people? (More in the vein of Kuthite art done on non-volunteers than "Is anyone uncomfortable with this?") Even if you had a Shelynite unaware of the context behind the banana taped to the wall that makes it interesting as art, it's not like people are being tortured in the process.
- Is there a message? Not that all art needs to have an intended message, but it can be useful in seeing or understanding art.
I could see some devout Shelynites keeping all their rough drafts. They would be useful to show process and progress. Others could keep the pages, and use them to make something else. For others, not having their failures staring at them might be important to making new art, so their disposal or destruction would be important. Others might reasonably conclude as the artist and first arbiter that it was not art yet. In all cases, though, if a kid wandered in and found one of the rough sketches beautiful and wanted to keep it or see it preserved, destroying it would probably be anathema.
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I'm sure that "is this art?" is a big question of discussion amongst her church
I'm quite sure it isn't. Unlike in our world, there's a final arbiter to the question: Shelyn herself. So you can determine what is art through trial and error (I removed the banana from the wall and lost all my powers, now I know duct taped banana is art).
Shelyn is also the goddess of beauty. As PaulJ said, the Mona Lisa is considered a piece of art by everyone while a duct taped banana is considered a piece of art only by those who understand the meaning. Maybe Shelyn doesn't care about the meaning of art but only about beauty. Because the Mona Lisa exist as a piece of art whatever the context and as such will always be a piece of art. The duct taped banana is only a piece of art because of its context, as such when the context will change the banana will no more be art (it will be historically interesting at best).
I don't see a god caring about the temporal meaning of art. In my opinion, Shelyn just sees a banana duct taped to a wall. She understands that it has been done for a purpose, but the purpose was not art. As such, it doesn't fall into her portfolio.
But that's just my point of view, as I don't think we will agree on these things.
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I can't imagine that Shelyn would willingly make herself an arbiter. The idea of one person deciding what is and isn't art runs counter to the entire point of art being subjective, which Shelyn herself believes. Imagine if Shelyn was also the arbiter of who was and wasn't attractive--that's about how much sense it makes to me.
I can't imagine that Shelyn would willingly make herself an arbiter. The idea of one person deciding what is and isn't art runs counter to the entire point of art being subjective, which Shelyn herself believes. Imagine if Shelyn was also the arbiter of who was and wasn't attractive--that's about how much sense it makes to me.
Art being subjective doesn't have to do with what is and what isn't art but about what you like and dislike. Shelyn wouldn't be an arbiter about what is beautiful or not but would definitely be an arbiter about what is beauty.
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I think Shelyn would be an arbiter of what is sincere or made earnestly, sure.
But a lot of people really like making and viewing modern art. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean Shelyn wouldn't see their joy in it.
I think Shelyn would be an arbiter of what is sincere or made earnestly, sure.
That's also what I think: She'll be an arbiter of what can be considered art. But I expect her to have a wide vision of art and not a limited one.
But a lot of people really like making and viewing modern art. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean Shelyn wouldn't see their joy in it.
In my message, I was not speaking about modern art in general but about the banana specifically. Cabbage said the banana was there to carry a message, as such I think it's not the same kind of art than, say, a painting from Rothko, that you can appreciate outside any context.
If you need a context to appreciate a piece of art and can't appreciate it without the context, I (and it's purely personal) wouldn't consider Shelyn to care about it. It's more a message that you pass than a piece of art.
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I don't think I agree with that distinction--many pieces of art mean little without some context, or are shallow without it--but I otherwise respect that take.
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I'm sure that "is this art?" is a big question of discussion amongst her churchI'm quite sure it isn't. Unlike in our world, there's a final arbiter to the question: Shelyn herself. So you can determine what is art through trial and error (I removed the banana from the wall and lost all my powers, now I know duct taped banana is art).
Shelyn is also the goddess of beauty. As PaulJ said, the Mona Lisa is considered a piece of art by everyone while a duct taped banana is considered a piece of art only by those who understand the meaning. Maybe Shelyn doesn't care about the meaning of art but only about beauty. Because the Mona Lisa exist as a piece of art whatever the context and as such will always be a piece of art. The duct taped banana is only a piece of art because of its context, as such when the context will change the banana will no more be art (it will be historically interesting at best).
I don't see a god caring about the temporal meaning of art. In my opinion, Shelyn just sees a banana duct taped to a wall. She understands that it has been done for a purpose, but the purpose was not art. As such, it doesn't fall into her portfolio.
But that's just my point of view, as I don't think we will agree on these things.
You probably can't trial and error it. The problem being that trying to use Shelyn's divine blessing as an art-test is the kind of thing that would be likely to lose you access to it. You clearly wouldn't be respecting that blessing, and destroying something to learn whether or not it's art rather than figuring that out seems about as bad as destroying something you know to be art.
Shelyn is the goddess of beauty, but she doesn't just care about beautiful art. If an artist makes an ugly piece reflecting pain they've suffered, that's just as important.
I don't see Shelyn dismissing the meaning of an artist commenting on their own work through a piece that reduces it to an absurdly minimal degree. But, I understand if folks feel differently. The piece is one designed to be very un-art-like.
(... This makes me want to scotch tape a banana to the wall as a forgery.)
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art being subjective, which Shelyn herself believes.
Why do you think that Shelyn believes that?
I'd argue that
Even the crudest artistic awakenings are worthy of praise in the goddess’s eyes
implies that she DOES have an objective standard as how else can one decide that one piece of art is "crude" and another not?
She certainly encourages all kinds of artistic endeavours and thinks that there is great value in trying to create are but that does NOT mean that she thinks art is subjective
You probably can't trial and error it.
I didn't mean literally trying Shelyn. But if Shelyn gives her blessing to a banana duct taper, you know that Shelyn considers banana duct taping as a form of art. If she completely disregards an art current, you know that something's wrong with it.
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Beauty comes from within" is a relatively recent saying she introduced to Golarion, and it is a philosophy she not only practices herself, but she requires from her clerics. In this way, it is quite possible for a physically unattractive person to become a cleric of the goddess of beauty.[6]
This doesn't sound like the doctrine of someone who thinks anything can be objectively not-art.
Also, recognizing that art is "crude" isn't the same thing as calling it not art. Not even close.
Art is about the meaning for both the creator and the viewer.
But I am slowly realizing we've gone from "if you throw away a sketch, does Shelyn cry?" to "what is the definition of art?" And that's a lot deeper than I think we're going to settle today. :P
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Art is about the meaning for both the creator and the viewer.
But I am slowly realizing we've gone from "if you throw away a sketch, does Shelyn cry?" to "what is the definition of art?" And that's a lot deeper than I think we're going to settle today. :P
I refuse to play until Paizo gives us a ruling on what is and isn't art!
Yeah, I think the initial question is just creator discretion. Shelyn seems like she'd be chill with multiple interpretations, because different artists benefit from different interpretations.
