Eidolon and items


Rules Discussion

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I was looking through the rules text for eidolons and it stated that eidolons can't use items that don't have the eidolon trait.

Without a specific game definition of item does this mean that ediolons can't use consumables (potions or elixiers) gear (tents, rope, saddles) or tools (theives tools, healers tools or climbing tools etc) or items I'm the environment (throwing a stone to break window, using a door nob, working a lever, turning a wheel or playing an instrument).

Is my interpretation of the rules correct i am hoping not. If that is correct does that seem a bit overly restrictive that your angel can't use a brush to keep his perfect hair in order or use the tools that allow him to use his skill proficiencies.


Gear and your Eidolon wrote:
Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait.

I think that 'magic items' is a specific category of items. I don't know if it is a very well defined category though.

Restricting them from being able to use skill tools like lockpicks, crowbars, healer's tools, and such would mean that they could get the skills and feats to use them, but only as trap options since they can't use the tools that are required to actually take the actions.

And preventing them from using mundane items for role-play seems completely bizarre.


The rules are probably there to prevent your eidolon from wielding specific magic items. Anything that doesn't have the eidolon tag can't be manifested I'd say but tools and mundane items should be allowed to be used at least. It's somewhat unclear though.


It's frustrating though that the eidolon trait described in key terms plainly says eidolons CAN'T use items without the trait. It's even more ridiculous than familiars. Eidolons are described as intelligent beings with individual thoughts and goals, but they can't figure out how to use a lockpick, drink a potion, or stitch a wound.


So by RAW they can't use some skills like thievery? Seems like an oversight that came with the balance hammer being used with extreme prejudice during summoner design.

Silver Crusade

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They can't use magic items without the Eidolon Trait, reading it as they can't use any items at all ever is reading too far.


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siegfriedliner wrote:

I was looking through the rules text for eidolons and it stated that eidolons can't use items that don't have the eidolon trait.

Without a specific game definition of item does this mean that ediolons can't use consumables (potions or elixiers) gear (tents, rope, saddles) or tools (theives tools, healers tools or climbing tools etc) or items I'm the environment (throwing a stone to break window, using a door nob, working a lever, turning a wheel or playing an instrument).

Is my interpretation of the rules correct i am hoping not. If that is correct does that seem a bit overly restrictive that your angel can't use a brush to keep his perfect hair in order or use the tools that allow him to use his skill proficiencies.

I have it on my list of rules problems

Technically I agree but I guess you are just supposed to use common sense and allow normal mundane stuff. I presume it only talking about magic items. It has your skill but if it can't use those skills that require items then it seems like a nerf.


aobst128 wrote:
It's frustrating though that the eidolon trait described in key terms plainly says eidolons CAN'T use items without the trait. It's even more ridiculous than familiars. Eidolons are described as intelligent beings with individual thoughts and goals, but they can't figure out how to use a lockpick, drink a potion, or stitch a wound.

Ah, that's right. The Key Terms sidebar has slightly different text than the actual Eidolon rules. Go down to the 'Gear and your Eidolon' rule text block. Don't use the reminder text - it is a bit broken.


I'm sure by 2024 we'll get a reprint of the book and the errata that comes with it... :P


Rysky wrote:
They can't use magic items without the Eidolon Trait, reading it as they can't use any items at all ever is reading too far.

Talking about the bit in the sidebar about the eidolon trait.

Silver Crusade

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My answer remains unchanged.


It pretty specifically says any items. It could be oversight and a to bad to be true situation but that's what it says.

Silver Crusade

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Or you can apply common sense when reading the whole, it's very much talking about magical items, otherwise it wouldn't follow up with talking about the investment limit.

I tend to not give any stock to "too bad to be true" interpretation of mechanics, there's no point.


There's the specific vs general rule. Which takes priority again? I don't remember. Because there's 2 pieces of relevant text about "items" and "magic items" both texts describing that you can't use them without the eidolon trait.

Sczarni

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Reading the Eidolon Trait, I agree with Rysky:

"An item with this trait can be worn by an eidolon. An eidolon can have up to two items invested."

You don't Invest non-magic items, so the restriction seems (to me) to be covering just those. And every item with the Eidolon Trait (currently published) is a magic item.


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A general rule of "no items except eidolon items" would need some clarification then. Since it's not relevant if the specific rule about magic items exists to overrule it.


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I would have to say "your eidolon can't use [completely mundane tool] because it doesn't have the eidolon trait" is bad faith GMing.

Like whether or not it can row a boat has more to do with its specific physiology (e.g. is it person-shaped or wolf-shaped) than "an eidolon can't use oars, they don't have the eidolon trait."


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I would have to say "your eidolon can't use [completely mundane tool] because it doesn't have the eidolon trait" is bad faith GMing.

Like whether or not it can row a boat has more to do with its specific physiology (e.g. is it person-shaped or wolf-shaped) than "an eidolon can't use oars, they don't have the eidolon trait."

I agree. It would be weird. If your eidolon can get skill feats that depend on tools, it should be able to use them. The sidebar is just awkward.


Not being able to use mundane tools or items would prevent the eidolon from choosing different skill feats, given the proper summoner feat ( don't remember the name).

The first thing that comes into my mind is that, given the high number of skill feats requiring tools or just mundane items, paizo would have definitely specified that eidolons wouldn't have been able to use normal tools or mundane items, if they had intended them not to do so.

@Gortle: nice list there!


Assuming an eidolon can use mundane items, is there anything else preventing an eidolon from wielding a weapon (other than morphology)? It might be interesting to build an eidolon using a weapon (at low levels, since it'd drop off once Striking runes are in play).


egindar wrote:
Assuming an eidolon can use mundane items, is there anything else preventing an eidolon from wielding a weapon (other than morphology)? It might be interesting to build an eidolon using a weapon (at low levels, since it'd drop off once Striking runes are in play).

It's harmless IMO, but it would be not so good because the eidolon is not proficient with weapons, but just unarmed attacks.

You'd better create an eidolo with a weapon shaped unarmed attack ( and angel wielding a flaming sword for example).


HumbleGamer wrote:
egindar wrote:
Assuming an eidolon can use mundane items, is there anything else preventing an eidolon from wielding a weapon (other than morphology)? It might be interesting to build an eidolon using a weapon (at low levels, since it'd drop off once Striking runes are in play).

It's harmless IMO, but it would be not so good because the eidolon is not proficient with weapons, but just unarmed attacks.

You'd better create an eidolo with a weapon shaped unarmed attack ( and angel wielding a flaming sword for example).

A reach weapon expands the area they can help flank, so if they can wield a weapon, just hand them a whip even if they never, ever attack with it.


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The full rules for Gear and your Eidolon say, among other things:

Gear and your Eidolon wrote:
Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait.

The rules for the Eidolon trait say:

Eidolon wrote:
An item with this trait can be worn by an eidolon."

I fail to see how these conflict with each other. One tells you what you can't do: use magic items without the Eidolon trait. The other tells you what you can do with items with the Eidolon trait: use them. No where does it say that you can't use mundane gear without the Eidolon trait. I can do X with Y isn't the same as I can't do X with anything other than Y.

Actually, sorry, never mind... I just did a quick ctrl f through Summoner to see if I was missing any other mentions of the trait and it's also mentioned at the top in a side bar that says that you can't use items without the Eidolon trait. Though, that just seems ridiculous practically speaking and it doesn't match the other 2 descriptions, so I'd just go with those.


Aw3som3-117 wrote:
I just did a quick ctrl f through Summoner to see if I was missing any other mentions of the trait and it's also mentioned at the top in a side bar that says that you can't use items without the Eidolon trait. Though, that just seems ridiculous practically speaking and it doesn't match the other 2 descriptions, so I'd just go with those.

Yes. Also I would give preference to the actual rules text rather than the summary in the sidebar.


The downtime flavor text says your eidolon could help craft items which would suggest that they can use crafting tools at least.


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aobst128 wrote:
The downtime flavor text says your eidolon could help craft items which would suggest that they can use crafting tools at least.

Taking Skilled Partner and giving the Eidolon Battle Medicine and Wary Disarmament kind of requires that they can use healer's tools and thieves tools too.


breithauptclan wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
The downtime flavor text says your eidolon could help craft items which would suggest that they can use crafting tools at least.
Taking Skilled Partner and giving the Eidolon Battle Medicine and Wary Disarmament kind of requires that they can use healer's tools and thieves tools too.

Yeah, they have the option so it should work for them.


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I would never follow the rule even if it were the current reading on it. I'd just limit to two eidolon trait magic items invested and I would let it use whatever mundane gear it seemed capable of using.


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I hope this gets a clarifying errata the first chance it gets. Until then, I'd allow this for the simple fact that mundane items allow even more customizability for the eidolon.

I played in a game with a summoner and their medic eidolon and they integrated their healer's tools as various healing fruits that grow on the eidolon. It makes me want to roll a construct eidolon and deck it out with all the tools.


Yeah I'm baffled that this hasn't been clarified yet. Just because there's a bunch of different pieces of text that don't all line up well in what they say. My interpretation is "mundane tools are fine" but you can make a case that it's not based on the wording.

It seems like such an easy thing to clarify that I don't understand what is taking so long.


Clarifications are kinda rare outside of obvious typos.

Verdant Wheel

So.

Eidolon's cannot use equipment independently?

Is this the current consensus?

(Surprised this "simple" question seems so murky...)


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No the current consensus is that an eidolon can use mundane items, but not magical ones unless they have the eidolon trait. This is with the caveat that the eidolon have hands or similar to actually use the item. The example give above was a wolf can't row a boat.


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rainzax wrote:

So.

Eidolon's cannot use equipment independently?

They CAN if it has the Eidolon trait.

rainzax wrote:
Is this the current consensus?

Non-Eidolon items have no consensus. You have more of a consensus on what people think it should do vs what people think it actually says/means.


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graystone wrote:
rainzax wrote:
Is this the current consensus?
Non-Eidolon items have no consensus. You have more of a consensus on what people think it should do vs what people think it actually says/means.

Yeah, the rules are a bit murky.

But there is no way that I am going to be convinced that it is RAI that a good percentage of skill feats that the Eidolon can get with Skilled Partner are straight-up trap options due to not being able to use the toolkits needed for them.

My thinking is that the purpose of the restriction on Eidolon trait only for magical items is to prevent stacking magical buffs on top of the Eidolon stats that already meet the intended math curves without the items.


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I think the "can my Eidolon use X" might be a question better answered at the table with a specific Eidolon in mind.

Like "can my eidolon use lockpicks" could be ruled out by "of course not, it is a dog".

One of the reason to not have really clearly delineated rules is to allow the GM to be permissive in terms of enabling what the player character wants, while not allowing players to be exploitative as long as they stay inside the guidelines.


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breithauptclan wrote:
But there is no way that I am going to be convinced that it is RAI that a good percentage of skill feats that the Eidolon can get with Skilled Partner are straight-up trap options due to not being able to use the toolkits needed for them.

The eidolon can use 58 1st level skill feats, 32 2nd and and 24 7th level feats without tools/kits [quick count that may be off a bit]. It doesn't look to be a huge impediment IMO.

There are also technically more that they can use if they have Improvise Tool as one feat as you can Repair damaged items without a repair kit: this means you could then take things like Quick Repair. And you have feats that can be taken multiple times like assurance or additional lore which is 16 more per feat like that. I don't think it's a huge impediment to not be able to take feats for skill that require tools/kits as there are plenty of skills/feats that don't need them.

So I'm not sure 'skilled partner might be a trap option' really tracks for me as there seem to be plenty of viable non-trap options to pick from. As such, I don't see the RAI from that.


And how many trap options should there be? Before it becomes an indication that this isn't how the rules are intended to be interpreted.

Looking through it briefly, I see more than a few and they are rather weighted towards a few skills. I am seeing 11 in Crafting, 12 in Medicine, 2 in Thievery, and 2 in Deception.

And really that is the point. The existence of having skill feats for an Eidolon is heavy indication that the Eidolon is supposed to be able to do skill actions. And there are a lot of skill actions that require toolkits.

So - how about justifying ruling against allowing Eidolons to use toolkits. What is the exploit? Where is the balance problem? Why is the game better for not allowing it? Because it may not be a huge game-breaking problem to only allow Eidolons to use those 114 skill feats and not the others, but it is still a detriment. Justify the ruling that creates that detriment.


breithauptclan wrote:
And how many trap options should there be?

I mean just about anything can be a trap option if you don't think it through: an 8 cha and Bon Mot is a trap option in the same way picking a skill feat that requires a tool/kit with an eidolon. "An item with this trait can be used or worn by an eidolon only, and an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait" in the sidebar within the class seems pretty straightforward IMO.

breithauptclan wrote:
Looking through it briefly, I see more than a few and they are rather weighted towards a few skills. I am seeing 11 in Crafting, 12 in Medicine, 2 in Thievery, and 2 in Deception.

Yes, it's totally shocking that skills that have actions that require a tool/kit have skill feats that require them... Mind blown... :P

breithauptclan wrote:
And really that is the point. The existence of having skill feats for an Eidolon is heavy indication that the Eidolon is supposed to be able to do skill actions. And there are a lot of skill actions that require toolkits.

I think the heavy indicator is that there are FAR, FAR more that they can use than ones that they can't if tools are off the table. As such, not being able to use 27 but being able to use 114 [plus more that can be taken multiple times] doesn't seem overly onerous and no where close to a 'too bad' situation.

breithauptclan wrote:
So - how about justifying ruling against allowing Eidolons to use toolkits. What is the exploit? Where is the balance problem? Why is the game better for not allowing it? Because it may not be a huge game-breaking problem to only allow Eidolons to use those 114 skill feats and not the others, but it is still a detriment. Justify the ruling that creates that detriment.

LOL I could ask why the game is better with bulk or alignment damage as/is [I can't think of a reason] but that really isn't the point IMO. It's clearly, IMO, not 'too bad' and the rules say it works that way as far as I can see. The sections that talk about magic items aren't contradictory with the parts that just say items so I don't see the need to have to justify anything: rules just are and I don't see this as an ambiguity issue so much as some people feeling that it shouldn't work that way. If it's meant to be only magic item it'd need an errata IMO: As/is it's not too good/bad and even if we look at Ambiguous Rules it's have to have "problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended" and I can say I see either. Not being able to take 19% of skill feats isn't problematic and I have no idea on intent. Nothing indicates that they can manipulate items or have 'hands': for instance, familiars have to buy that ability. It doesn't seem odd that an Eidolon that doesn't have a set number of body parts and may not even have limbs [beast:snake] doesn't get the ability to use items.

Now if you want to talk about house-ruling something then we can get into justifications and how good/bad it would be. I not going to argue that it couldn't use a rewrite/FAQ to make it crystal clear.


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graystone wrote:
LOL I could ask why the game is better with bulk or alignment damage as/is [I can't think of a reason] but that really isn't the point IMO. It's clearly, IMO, not 'too bad' and the rules say it works that way as far as I can see. The sections that talk about magic items aren't contradictory with the parts that just say items so I don't see the need to have to justify anything: rules just are and I don't see this as an ambiguity issue so much as some people feeling that it shouldn't work that way. If it's meant to be only magic item it'd need an errata IMO: As/is it's not too good/bad and even if we look at Ambiguous Rules it's have to have "problematic repercussions or doesn’t work as intended" and I can say I see either. Not being able to take 19% of skill feats isn't problematic and I have no idea on intent.

The rules are literally contradictory.

Gear and your Eidolon wrote:
Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait.
Eidolon Trait wrote:
an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait.

One says the Eidolon is prevented from using any items without the Eidolon trait, the other says that the Eidolon is only prevented from using magic items without the Eidolon trait.

So there are two equally valid interpretations of the rules. One prevents using some skills and their associated skill feats and the other doesn't.

This is clearly a case of Ambiguous Rules clause - losing out on two entire skill usage and parts of others is a "problematic repercussion". If there is no good reason to use the ruling that prevents using certain skills, use the other ruling.

Liberty's Edge

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breithauptclan wrote:


The rules are literally contradictory.

Gear and your Eidolon wrote:
Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait.
Eidolon Trait wrote:
an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait.

Not contradictory at all, you're somehow inserting the word only where it doesn't actually exist. These are two separate statements and both apply without interfering with one another.

Now, I DO think that the second statement is an error whereby they accidentally failed to include the word magic between "use" and "that" but without clarifications or errata, we are simply left with the RAW which has two different statements, one which indicates they can only use magic items with the appropriate Eidolon Trait, and another one which just has a wholesale prohibition on all items which leads to a situation where the only allowed equipment are those outlined with the Eidolon Trait exception.


breithauptclan wrote:

The rules are literally contradictory.

Gear and your Eidolon wrote:
Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items, except for items with the eidolon trait.
Eidolon Trait wrote:
an eidolon can't use items that don't have this trait.

Unless you are saying that Magic Items aren't Items, they aren't contradictory. 'You can only drive trucks' and 'you can only drive motor vehicles' aren't contradictory: both can be true. Are you saying that a limitation on items doesn't cover magic items? Confusing yes, contradictory no.

breithauptclan wrote:
So there are two equally valid interpretations of the rules. One prevents using some skills and their associated skill feats and the other doesn't.

One you totally ignore one part of the text and assumes it's in error: IMO, that's not 2 RAW readings but jumping to RAI for one. I wouldn't call that RAI a valid interpretation of the RAW.

breithauptclan wrote:
This is clearly a case of Ambiguous Rules clause - losing out on two entire skill usage and parts of others is a "problematic repercussion". If there is no good reason to use the ruling that prevents using certain skills, use the other ruling.

You are free to house-rule it but that's not a specific rule: it literally tells you to not play the rules as is and make up what works for your table if you find it problematic. That said, I don't find it an Ambiguous Rules: It can be confusing with magic items vs items but I find it clear when looking at the whole. Now it might be in error as Themetricsystem said but that doesn't alter the RAW. I find Oracles Curse mechanic problematic but that doesn't make it a valid reason for a different reading of RAW.


Both cases are giving a prohibition. If you convert that into an acceptance then it does strange things.

graystone wrote:
'You can only drive trucks' and 'you can only drive motor vehicles' aren't contradictory

Try "you can't enter trucks" and "you can't enter motor vehicles". Because at that point they are both prohibitions. And the first one allows you to drive cars, vans, RVs, and SUVs. The second one prohibits all of those as well.

That is where the 'only' comes from. In the wording of the 'Gear and your Eidolon' quote it is only prohibiting the magic items from being used. Non-magical items such as toolkits are allowed even without the Eidolon trait.


graystone wrote:
You are free to house-rule it but that's not a specific rule: it literally tells you to not play the rules as is and make up what works for your table if you find it problematic. That said, I don't find it an Ambiguous Rules: It can be confusing with magic items vs items but I find it clear when looking at the whole. Now it might be in error as Themetricsystem said but that doesn't alter the RAW. I find Oracles Curse mechanic problematic but that doesn't make it a valid reason for a different reading of RAW.

If a Summoner with an Angel Eidolon (one that is described as having hands) takes Dual Studies and Skilled Partner so that the Eidolon has skill training in Medicine and has Battle Medicine and Continual Recovery, then it is a problem that the Eidolon can't use Healers Tools.

I don't think it is a houserule to let them use the Healer's Tools. I am just following what it says in the Gear and your Eidolon rule - which doesn't prohibit using Healer's Tools.


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My suspicion is that they do mean to prohibit the use of all items to align with companion and familiar rules. It's arbitrary and annoying that it would be so restrictive but sometimes that will happen with RAW. The clarification that familiars can't administer items got a lot of pushback rightfully so. Eidolons I fear are in a similar situation.


breithauptclan wrote:
Try "you can't enter trucks" and "you can't enter motor vehicles".

Sure, both of those can be true as trucks are a type of motor vehicle: they don't contradict. IMO, prohibition/acceptance a distinction without difference.

breithauptclan wrote:
Because at that point they are both prohibitions. And the first one allows you to drive cars, vans, RVs, and SUVs. The second one prohibits all of those as well.

Yes... And? Again, both can be true.

breithauptclan wrote:
That is where the 'only' comes from. In the wording of the 'Gear and your Eidolon' quote it is only prohibiting the magic items from being used. Non-magical items such as toolkits are allowed even without the Eidolon trait.

One talks about magic items and one talks about all items: confusing but not contradictory. There is no "only". You have to assume it or infer it and THAT would be RAI not RAW.

breithauptclan wrote:
If a Summoner with an Angel Eidolon (one that is described as having hands) takes Dual Studies and Skilled Partner so that the Eidolon has skill training in Medicine and has Battle Medicine and Continual Recovery, then it is a problem that the Eidolon can't use Healers Tools.

An Angel is described as humanoid but I don't see hands listed. That and even if it does have hands, that doesn't mean it has 'hands': for instance a familiar could have hands but not 'hands' unless they take Manual Dexterity. Physical limbs and the ability to perform manipulate actions don't have to go together. For instance, there isn't any distinction in what actions an ape animal companion can manipulate vs a snake.

As to the "problem" it's only one of failing to do what YOU ant it to do. I could just as easily say it's be a problem for me to see a beats [snake] Eidolon with no limbs pull out a tool kit and pick a lock. We're talking about rules for each and every Eidolon after all so the rule applies to the worst example for manipulation not the best.

breithauptclan wrote:
I don't think it is a houserule to let them use the Healer's Tools. I am just following what it says in the Gear and your Eidolon rule - which doesn't prohibit using Healer's Tools.

I mean you can feel anyway you ant to about it but I don't see how you have a leg to stand on as you have to ignore 2 other sections, the Key Terms sidebar and the Eidolon trait, which say items nor magic items: I don't see that as compelling for a RAW argument. Now as a reason for a house-rule, sure go for it.


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graystone wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Try "you can't enter trucks" and "you can't enter motor vehicles".
Sure, both of those can be true as trucks are a type of motor vehicle: they don't contradict. IMO, prohibition/acceptance a distinction without difference.

The one is more restrictive than the other.

They don't say the same thing. They are not equivalent. They are not compatible.

They are contradictory.

I don't know how to explain it any more clearly than that.

The sidebar is simply a duplication of the Eidolon trait. There is only the two places in the rules that are meaningful. So it isn't a case of two-out-of-three.

And both you and Themetricsystem are pointing out that the word 'only' doesn't appear. Which is technically correct. But I don't understand how you can read just the rule text from Gear and your Eidolon and think that it doesn't 'only' restrict usage of Magic Items. You have to go to the Eidolon trait where it restricts both magical and non-magical items.

What it feels like you are doing is making the less restrictive wording of the one rule match the more restrictive wording of the other rule. But adding more restrictions that aren't there in order to make them match is no different than removing a restriction from the other place in order to make them match. The two rules text don't have equivalent restrictions.

So similar: You can feel however you want, but whichever way you rule it you have to go with the one wording and ignore the other.


graystone wrote:
breithauptclan wrote:
Try "you can't enter trucks" and "you can't enter motor vehicles".

Sure, both of those can be true as trucks are a type of motor vehicle: they don't contradict. IMO, prohibition/acceptance a distinction without difference.

breithauptclan wrote:
Because at that point they are both prohibitions. And the first one allows you to drive cars, vans, RVs, and SUVs. The second one prohibits all of those as well.

Yes... And? Again, both can be true.

breithauptclan wrote:
That is where the 'only' comes from. In the wording of the 'Gear and your Eidolon' quote it is only prohibiting the magic items from being used. Non-magical items such as toolkits are allowed even without the Eidolon trait.

One talks about magic items and one talks about all items: confusing but not contradictory. There is no "only". You have to assume it or infer it and THAT would be RAI not RAW.

breithauptclan wrote:
If a Summoner with an Angel Eidolon (one that is described as having hands) takes Dual Studies and Skilled Partner so that the Eidolon has skill training in Medicine and has Battle Medicine and Continual Recovery, then it is a problem that the Eidolon can't use Healers Tools.

An Angel is described as humanoid but I don't see hands listed. That and even if it does have hands, that doesn't mean it has 'hands': for instance a familiar could have hands but not 'hands' unless they take Manual Dexterity. Physical limbs and the ability to perform manipulate actions don't have to go together. For instance, there isn't any distinction in what actions an ape animal companion can manipulate vs a snake.

As to the "problem" it's only one of failing to do what YOU ant it to do. I could just as easily say it's be a problem for me to see a beats [snake] Eidolon with no limbs pull out a tool kit and pick a lock. We're talking about rules for each and every Eidolon after all so the rule applies to the worst example for manipulation not the best.

breithauptclan wrote:
I
...

I looked up images of pathfinder 2e angels from mm and other sources they all have hands and most them are grasping weapons or tools.

Pathfinder 2e angel eidolons are described as being actual angels (unlike dragons and plants which are meta constructs).


breithauptclan wrote:

The one is more restrictive than the other.

They don't say the same thing. They are not equivalent. They are not compatible.

They are contradictory.

I don't know how to explain it any more clearly than that.

I'm in a similar situation, as I can't understand why you can't see that they aren't contradictory. "Your eidolon can't wear or use magic item" and "an eidolon can't use items" just plain aren't contradictory as magic items are a subset of items.

breithauptclan wrote:
The sidebar is simply a duplication of the Eidolon trait. There is only the two places in the rules that are meaningful. So it isn't a case of two-out-of-three.

I disagree: it's printed in more than 1 place in the book so I'll stick with 2 out of 3.

breithauptclan wrote:
But I don't understand how you can read just the rule text from Gear and your Eidolon and think that it doesn't 'only' restrict usage of Magic Items. You have to go to the Eidolon trait where it restricts both magical and non-magical items.

That's the thing though: I'm NOT just reading one part but reading all 3 and they aren't contradictory: magic items ARE items. What I'm not doing it completely ignoring 2 parts of the rules in favor of a single part that reads the way I want it to.

breithauptclan wrote:
What it feels like you are doing is making the less restrictive wording of the one rule match the more restrictive wording of the other rule. But adding more restrictions that aren't there in order to make them match is no different than removing a restriction from the other place in order to make them match. The two rules text don't have equivalent restrictions.

They don't HAVE to have the same restriction as long as they don't contradict. One section focuses on items and 2 sections focuses on magic items specifically: there isn't any problem with that. The thing is saying you can't use magic items in NO WAY means there can't also be a restriction on normal items: it doesn't exclude that possibility and that is backed up by sections that use a more inclusive term "items".

breithauptclan wrote:
So similar: You can feel however you want, but whichever way you rule it you have to go with the one wording and ignore the other.

This is just plain and objectively wrong. "Your eidolon can't wear or use magic items" doesn't mean there can't be a restriction on items too. I'm not ignoring anything. I completely agree they can't use magic items: you just ignore that it also says items in general are also restricted.


siegfriedliner wrote:

I looked up images of pathfinder 2e angels from mm and other sources they all have hands and most them are grasping weapons or tools.

Pathfinder 2e angel eidolons are described as being actual angels (unlike dragons and plants which are meta constructs).

"Most angel eidolons are roughly humanoid" Note the word "most and "roughly". It doesn't have to be humanoid or conform to a strict human form. For instance, "However, some take the form of smaller angelic servitors like the winged helmet cassisian angel instead" which I think we can agree doesn't have hands or any other manipulative limbs. And while it does say it's a true angel it doesn't say it's a bestiary angel or has to mimic their form: all that really means is that it has the Angel/Celestial traits. I don't see anything that makes them any more deserving to have hands for items anymore than a beast[snake] or a plant[puffball] or a construct [walking chair]. No matter the category, I can come up with an example that in no way, shape or form would have a hand: I mean they even tell you your angel can be a flying helmet and THAT seems like a perfect argument why they shouldn't be able to use a tool kit.

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