So I gave a character the summoner dedication feat at level 2 but now I'm not certain how to actually use the eidolon.
It's pretty clear that the character has only 3 actions per round between him and the eidolon, but since the archetype doesn't grant act together, does this mean that on a given turn I can have either the character or the eidolon take actions but not both?
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You just split the three actions. Summoner dedication is terrible. Paizo is working so hard to balance the summoner they made it not even worth archetyping into.
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It works reasonably well once you get Meld Into eidolon. It sort-of becomes a permanently available battle form. Like Druid's Wild Shape but different.
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It works reasonably well once you get Meld Into eidolon. It sort-of becomes a permanently available battle form. Like Druid's Wild Shape but different.
For who? A caster can't spells while melded. Never gets master proficiency to attack. A warrior type would be weaker melding. A caster doesn't get the d10 hit points, so they have d6 hit points with a shared hit point pool with no ability to cast spells or use weapons any better.
About the only somewhat interesting use I found for a summoner Archetype is a defensive build with a Champion. You can get the eidolon casting and give it Forbidding ward. Then have the eidolon cast and maintain forbidding ward on you in a fight for an nice AC bonus.
Not sure what else would be good to do with archetype. Even the champion uses is action starved with raise a shield and one action for the eidolon to sustain after you set it up.
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The use I've seen for it is that it is another body for using skills. You could maybe give it demoralize feats and then you have two uses per enemy. Maybe give it healer's tools depending on how one interprets the rules about them using items.
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You can probably build a utility eidolon if you feel that is worth the archetype investment. At least then you wouldn't have to worry about two points of attack without the action economy benefits of a true summoner. Use it as a sort of summonable skill monkey.
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It is only one feat after all, and like other Dedication feats it's worth more than a normal 2nd level class feat. Having a second presence on a battlefield (or off for that matter) opens up strange options, i.e. multiple skill, Aid, & Perception roll sources. And if the Eidelon were also effective on its own, then MCD Summoner would be too powerful; Charismatic characters (or 9th level Half-Elves) would feel obligated to pick up a Master-proficiency companion.
Of course my favorite is the Champion mostly because it gives them somebody to protect, which for a Paladin is free swings. :) (And two spaces blocked, i.e. most corridors) And later if it's protecting the Paladin for +2 AC, the Paladin could carry a 2-hander. Hmm.
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It works reasonably well once you get Meld Into eidolon. It sort-of becomes a permanently available battle form. Like Druid's Wild Shape but different.For who? A caster can't spells while melded.
Neither can the Druid using Wild Shape.
Even the champion uses is action starved with raise a shield and one action for the eidolon to sustain after you set it up.
Wait, are you sustaining an Eidolon??
It works reasonably well once you get Meld Into eidolon. It sort-of becomes a permanently available battle form. Like Druid's Wild Shape but different.For who? A caster can't spells while melded.Neither can the Druid using Wild Shape.
Even the champion uses is action starved with raise a shield and one action for the eidolon to sustain after you set it up.Wait, are you sustaining an Eidolon??
1) Druid wildshape comes with a pre-set modifier and potential status bonus that makes it worth it.
2) probably sustaining the forbidding ward mentioned just above that quote.Summoner dedication is mostly just a trap option with a niche the size of a splinter. I get that it had to be included but it's kind of sad that you can't even buy back the action economy later on like you can with monk at 10.
2) probably sustaining the forbidding ward mentioned just above that quote.
Ah. Yes, that makes a lot more sense.
Summoner dedication is mostly just a trap option with a niche the size of a splinter. I get that it had to be included but it's kind of sad that you can't even buy back the action economy later on like you can with monk at 10.
I'll agree that Summoner multiclass is pretty bad. Bordering on unusable. It is possible to get something out of it - especially for flavor or in lower difficulty campaigns. Certainly not a powergamer option.
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Summoner Dedication is okay for purely utility purposes. By having an Eidolon with a unique statline, you can get some fairly decent bonuses to certain skills just by virtue of existing.
I can grab a Trickster Fey eidolon for instance and build a solid face character without actually having to invest a single point in Charisma, because my Eidolon has those attributes instead.
That's actually pretty damn powerful for a single second level feat.
The problem is that most people I've seen drawn to the idea want a combat buddy, not a handful of +1s, +2s and +3s to skill checks and Summoner MCD is legitimately horrible at that.
... Also the bounded spellcaster archetype mechanics seem kind of terrible. They keep all the downsides of wave casting but forget to actually give you an upside.
Summoner Dedication is okay for purely utility purposes. By having an Eidolon with a unique statline, you can get some fairly decent bonuses to certain skills just by virtue of existing.
I can grab a Trickster Fey eidolon for instance and build a solid face character without actually having to invest a single point in Charisma, because my Eidolon has those attributes instead.
That's actually pretty damn powerful for a single second level feat.
The problem is that most people I've seen drawn to the idea want a combat buddy, not a handful of +1s, +2s and +3s to skill checks and Summoner MCD is legitimately horrible at that.
... Also the bounded spellcaster archetype mechanics seem kind of terrible. They keep all the downsides of wave casting but forget to actually give you an upside.
I agree w/ your overall point, yet it does require 14 Charisma to take the MCD as a 2nd level feat. Not that it'd be a bad thing to have two faces rolling or aiding!
And we can apply the same thinking to Dex skills to get a good lockpicker/scout or to Athletics to do maneuvers for your allies. A martial wouldn't want the MAP interference, but a healer might use a spare action to Trip; and skill-roll-attacks are not bounded by the low attack proficiency of the Eidelon.
And again, that's for a single feat.
And I could see taking Eidelon's Wrath as a solid AoE blast for casters desiring/lacking a combat Focus spell, which might even be Good damage which is typically safe to explode right within the party.
I wouldn't invest much else into the Dedication, unlike most others, and especially not into Wavecasting, but per feat it's a viable MCD for more than a splinter IMO. The Eidelon's definitely in a secondary or tertiary role, yet the same could be said from spellcasting or martial proficiencies gained from other MCDs, i.e. MCD Fighter only gets you to Expert at higher levels despite Fighters starting there.
Yeah I should have worded the charisma part a bit more clearly, but my point stands that it's sort of an interesting way to leverage skills and if you only take it for that reason it's not bad.
Since you can meld into eidolon, wouldn't that be useful to grant you let's say flying abilities?
Since you can meld into eidolon, wouldn't that be useful to grant you let's say flying abilities?
If you get Meld Into Eidolon (you do have to buy that separately), then you can get and use some of the evolution feats. Some of them - like Amphibious Form and Glider Form would be easy enough to get directly from Advanced Synergy. Airborne Form would not be available from Advanced Synergy since it is a level 14 feat, but you could get it from Signature Synergy at level 18.
I don't see any way for you to get the focus spell Evolution Surge though. That is granted from a class feature rather than a class feat and there isn't a specific archetype feat that gives it.
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You just split the three actions. Summoner dedication is terrible. Paizo is working so hard to balance the summoner they made it not even worth archetyping into.
Terrible?
You get a pet without having to pay 3 extra feats for it just to survive (not even to keep being useful as high level ACs are extremely bad).Your pet is also an excellent skill monkey, and you have a few shenanigans opened (scouting, self Aid and so on).
You get a caster Dedication (even if it's not as good as a full caster dedication).
You get 2 skills.
So, in my opinion, it's one of the best dedications. And I think it can be a strong choice for specific builds. I don't think there's any dedication that is "good for every character no matter what" anyway.
Now, if what you want is a strong companion that really packs a punch, there's no archetype that will give you that. Paizo has been quite overt about the fact that companions won't be as strong as PCs. The only exception being the Eidolon of an actual Summoner and it's still a weak martial.
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You just split the three actions. Summoner dedication is terrible. Paizo is working so hard to balance the summoner they made it not even worth archetyping into.Terrible?
You get a pet without having to pay 3 extra feats for it just to survive (not even to keep being useful as high level ACs are extremely bad).
Your pet is also an excellent skill monkey, and you have a few shenanigans opened (scouting, self Aid and so on).
You get a caster Dedication (even if it's not as good as a full caster dedication).
You get 2 skills.So, in my opinion, it's one of the best dedications. And I think it can be a strong choice for specific builds. I don't think there's any dedication that is "good for every character no matter what" anyway.
Now, if what you want is a strong companion that really packs a punch, there's no archetype that will give you that. Paizo has been quite overt about the fact that companions won't be as strong as PCs. The only exception being the Eidolon of an actual Summoner and it's still a weak martial.
It is not even close to one of the best. An animal companion is better for combat.
It doesn't get its own skills, it gets your skills with its ability modifiers. It doesn't advance like a summoner pet, this is the big one. It is trained in AC and attack requiring an extra investment of feats just to get to expert.
You get skills with every archetype, so not much of a bonus.
The caster dedication is one of the weakest for the investment. Wave casting not a great investment if you want extra casting.
I want you to try playing the Summoner Archetype even as a free archetype. You will find it inferior to other archetypes.
I wanted to build this out. It is so bad as an archetype that having the summoned pet out when you are in combat is a big liability and risk, especially for a 6 hit point class.
Definitely not one of the best.
I explained the somewhat advantageous uses for it:
1. Sustain a cantrip on you that you can't sustain on yourself like forbidding ward.
2. You could use it as a ranged skill user so you could set off hazard. Then you drop if it drops in a place where you can be healed.
Not sure why you're trying hard to sell a bad archetype. Maybe to just be contrarian. I've specced the summoner Archetype out a few different ways, in no way is it a good archetype or the summoner pet worth getting in the state it is in with the archetype.
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It is not even close to one of the best. An animal companion is better for combat.
If by better you mean that it costs twice more feats for twice less damage, then I agree.
Animal Companions are only competitive at level 2-3. After that, you need to funnel nearly all your class feats in your AC for it to stay competitive and as soon as you stop doing it (or are forced to stop doing it at level 10) the AC damage drops while the Eidolon stays relevant. At level 20, the Eidolon deals more than twice the damage of the Animal Companion.The only place where the Animal Companion is really better is AC (1-2 extra points during your carreer). And of course the free action but it's mostly useless once you get to level 10+ as there's not much you can do with it.
Sure, I know the drawbacks of the Eidolon, and they are big. But it costs only 2 feats. You get your cake, you can't eat it to.
It doesn't get its own skills, it gets your skills with its ability modifiers.
So you always have an Aid buddy (giving you up to +4 once you get to Legendary, in my opinion it's awesome).
Also, you can choose to raise skills just for your Eidolon. Getting to Legendary Athletics may not be that useful to your character but is excellent on your Eidolon.You get skills with every archetype, so not much of a bonus.
Last time I checked, most Archetypes were not giving you skills. And some are only giving 1 skill.
As we are comparing ACs to Eidolons, the competition is Beastmaster that doesn't give you any skill.The caster dedication is one of the weakest for the investment. Wave casting not a great investment if you want extra casting.
I agree. But you don't choose Summoner Dedication for casting but for the Eidolon. And a few cantrips is nice. I wouldn't pay for extra spells but at least it's nice to have the choice.
I definitely see a few builds where an Eidolon would really shine. The most obvious one being an Alchemist who doesn't want to invest into Strength nor Dexterity (a full mental Alchemist, there's quite a fantasy here). The Eidolon can benefit from your Bestial Mutagens to stay nearly as strong as a Summoner's Eidolon and you can heal it by drinking your Elixirs of Life for excellent action economy.
You may also take an Eidolon just to add more hps on the frontline in a party with a lack of melee martials. For example if you play an archer, preferably a Precision Ranger (for action economy, so you have actions to move your Eidolon) you don't necessarily want to dive into melee but your party may really use your high hit points pool. Your Eidolon is less there to attack than to provide flanking and suck a bit of damage. And all of that for 2 feats while an Animal Companion would cost you half of your class feats and attract less attention.
I still consider it one of the best dedications. By that, I don't mean that it's strong whatever the character you play (I don't think anything like that exists in PF2). I mean that it gives you really a lot of powerful things, even if they come with quite crazy drawbacks. It's way more impactful on your character than most dedications.
But we can agree to disagree.
Well, one thing to note is that you need to invest a lot of gold to keep up the damage of a multiclass eidolon (and I assume you're not a martial class since you share MAP) so it is quite a heavy cost that may cause you to lose out on other stuff you want for your character.
ACs are also much easier to use since you have 4 actions with them, meaning you can cast a 2A spell and then command to make it move and attack. With the eidolon if you move and attack you only have a single action left.
The damage does get pretty good (with gold investment) but it is very hard to access imo.
Well, one thing to note is that you need to invest a lot of gold to keep up the damage of a multiclass eidolon (and I assume you're not a martial class since you share MAP) so it is quite a heavy cost that may cause you to lose out on other stuff you want for your character.
That's very campaign dependent. In PFS you have a lot of gold and in some campaign you get a lot of runes as loot. But if you have to pay for your weapon, I agree that the price can be a big problem, especially at low level (at high level, you can have a weapon 2 or 3 levels under yours without affecting the Eidolon damage output much).
ACs are also much easier to use since you have 4 actions with them, meaning you can cast a 2A spell and then command to make it move and attack. With the eidolon if you move and attack you only have a single action left.
Clearly. I don't find an Eidolon to be that ideal on a caster because of its action cost. If you have access to Electric Arc or Telekinetic Projectile, you no more have the actions to use your Eidolon and it becomes limited to a purely defensive position (even if it can work out quite well, the Eidolon has an honorable AC unlike most unarmored casters) or you have to take the ranged evolution and its damage drops to ridiculous levels (even if it can be a nice alternative to a bow if you don't have access to it or have low Dexterity).
On a caster, I'd take an Eidolon only if I have rounds where I just can't cast any valid spell. So mostly on Divine casters, especially those with few spell slots and no 2-action Focus powers (Fervor Witch comes to mind, but Cleric also has issues when everyone is high in life). Alchemist is also a good candidate as it is very limited in number of alchemical items per day.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Last time I checked, most Archetypes were not giving you skills. And some are only giving 1 skill.
The multiclass archetypes all give at least one skill. The general trend is that spellcasting archetypes give two skills, while martial archetypes give one. The exceptions that I found looking through it: Rogue and Investigator get two skills. Magus, Witch, and Wizard get one.
I haven't looked through all of the non-multiclass archetypes to see which gives skills, but if my memory serves me right, most of them don't.
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Last time I checked, most Archetypes were not giving you skills. And some are only giving 1 skill.The multiclass archetypes all give at least one skill. The general trend is that spellcasting archetypes give two skills, while martial archetypes give one. The exceptions that I found looking through it: Rogue and Investigator get two skills. Magus, Witch, and Wizard get one.
I haven't looked through all of the non-multiclass archetypes to see which gives skills, but if my memory serves me right, most of them don't.
I know, I was pestering Deriven.
As a side note I've made these graphs:
AC vs Eidolon damage
AC vs Eidolon damage in %
We see that the AC stays relevant only through heavy feat investment. As soon as the feat investment stops the AC drops to ridiculous levels. The Eidolon, on top of having low investment, stays relevant as a secondary damage dealer during the whole game.
Personally, I consider the AC to be better than the Eidolon during the first part of the game if you can invest the feats. But once you get to 2-digit levels, you should retrain it unless you have a use for its support ability. The Eidolon, on the other hand, is not very expensive and stays nice during the whole game (comparable to a d8 Fighter secondary attack). But its drawbacks are big (shared hps and actions) so you have to know what you do.