Yeah its part of why I'm frustrated with how Starfinder likes to say "nah elves were always xenophobic smug a%#&@$*s even before Gap" whenever possible :pLosing their favorite clothing store can make one irritable.
Did Dan Flashes close?!?!
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Honestly glad though I'm not only one frustrated with "general info: elves are CG" vs "stereotypical elf kingdom of Kyonin listed as CG: Extremely xenophobic and isolationist without chaotic or good traits" thing.
Like I know I'm not only one frustrated with Kyonin specifically, but I'm glad I'm not only one bothered with overall elf portrayal it results in :'D
Reminded that Golarion has a chaotic good deity of racial supremacy and traditionalism in that same sphere too.
Really feels like there was a huge disconnect somewhere in the process of creating that section of the world.
Reminded that Golarion has a chaotic good deity of racial supremacy and traditionalism in that same sphere too.
Really feels like there was a huge disconnect somewhere in the process of creating that section of the world.
I mean, somehow Torag's "anathema: show mercy to the enemies of your people" survived into 2e, despite him being "Lawful Good." It's pretty deeply frustrating.
Especially given his place in the Godclaw, I don't see why he isn't LN.
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I mean, Torag's good aligned clergy would probably indicate that "the enemies of ones people" are individuals who made a choice, not like "people who became your enemies when they were born."
Plus since his portfolio is "defensive war" it's more a "if someone tries to lay siege to your home, mess them up" kind of thing. Angradd is the one who should probably not be Good.
I mean, Torag's good aligned clergy would probably indicate that "the enemies of ones people" are individuals who made a choice, not like "people who became your enemies when they were born."
Plus since his portfolio is "defensive war" it's more a "if someone tries to lay siege to your home, mess them up" kind of thing. Angradd is the one who should probably not be Good.
I mean, given that there's a Dwarf Feat specifically for damaging ancestries the dwarves have traditionally feuded with, I think it's pretty fraught.
What's the deal with Angradd?
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What's the deal with Angradd?
Torag is about defensive war- how to hold the people and things you are protecting from those who want to take them from you. Angradd is the one about offensive war, where you attack them first before they can endanger your people and your stuff.
There's a fine line to walk there, but it absolutely shouldn't be "Lawful Good". We already acknowledge a range of alignments in Torag's extended family, since like we understand that "make people pay their debts and hold accountable the people who wronged you" aren't precisely Good so Dranngvit is LN, but Bolka is NG since her thing is "how to make it work with the people you're stuck with" which is valuable in a close society and requires you to be somewhat flexible.
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What's the deal with Angradd?Torag is about defensive war- how to hold the people and things you are protecting from those who want to take them from you. Angradd is the one about offensive war, where you attack them first before they can endanger your people and your stuff.
There's a fine line to walk there, but it absolutely shouldn't be "Lawful Good". We already acknowledge a range of alignments in Torag's extended family, since like we understand that "make people pay their debts and hold accountable the people who wronged you" aren't precisely Good so Dranngvit is LN, but Bolka is NG since her thing is "how to make it work with the people you're stuck with" which is valuable in a close society and requires you to be somewhat flexible.
Angradd :
Edicts Seek and destroy evil, study evil to learn the best way to destroy it, train others in righteous ways
Anathema Allow weaker evils to survive due to the presence of larger evils, deceive others outside of tactical gain
Follower Alignments LG, LN
How are his Edicts and Anathema not compatible with LG ?
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I mean, Torag's good aligned clergy would probably indicate that "the enemies of ones people" are individuals who made a choice, not like "people who became your enemies when they were born."
Plus since his portfolio is "defensive war" it's more a "if someone tries to lay siege to your home, mess them up" kind of thing. Angradd is the one who should probably not be Good.
Not only Torag's good aligned clergy. Otherwise Torag himself could not be LG.
I find it sad so many people try to depict Torag as the LG deity of genocide. Often to play a genocidal murderer with the LG tag affixed so they could use the powerful mechanics of the Paladin (especially in PF1) while satisfying their own bloodlust.
EDIT - To be clear, I absolutely do not include Keftiu nor PossibleCabbage in those.
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I mean, Torag's good aligned clergy would probably indicate that "the enemies of ones people" are individuals who made a choice, not like "people who became your enemies when they were born."
Plus since his portfolio is "defensive war" it's more a "if someone tries to lay siege to your home, mess them up" kind of thing. Angradd is the one who should probably not be Good.
I mean, given that there's a Dwarf Feat specifically for damaging ancestries the dwarves have traditionally feuded with, I think it's pretty fraught.
What's the deal with Angradd?
Yes. The feat's first part should have gone the way of the Ranger's Favored Enemy feature, backward-compatibility be damned.
Doubly so as the second part is the one most often used and it is not aimed at any specific ancestry. Which is why it is useful BTW.
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IMO Dwarves should culturally against bloodlust or other things that make you make mistakes by not thinking it through before you do it, FWIW.
They're very much "measure twice, then call in two buddies to check your work, before you cut" as a people.
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I agree you can read some questionable things into Torag's overall presentation, but Findeladlara still stands out to me more because it's so very explicit. Preserving traditional elven culture and looking down on/belittling non-elves are outright stated to be core parts of her portfolio. The former doesn't seem very chaotic and the latter doesn't seem very good.
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I agree you can read some questionable things into Torag's overall presentation, but Findeladlara still stands out to me more because it's so very explicit. Preserving traditional elven culture and looking down on/belittling non-elves are outright stated to be core parts of her portfolio. The former doesn't seem very chaotic and the latter doesn't seem very good.
I never really saw Findeladara as being contemptuous of non-elven art or accomplishments, but simply as 'not her thing.' She's like someone hyper-focused on Picasso, who can go on for hours about his individual works and phases and style, and when asked her opinion on a Monet says, 'eh, it's... a painting, I guess?' Non-elven art isn't ugly or pathetic or any of that to Findeladlara, it's utterly a non-event.
She's the god of *elven* stuff. Non-elven stuff is, "Whatever, don't they have their own gods? Why are you even asking me this? Do people pray to Gorum for advice on how to avoid a fight, or to the Dawnflower about how to best use lies to get two of your enemies to kill each other?"
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That does sound pretty elitist.
I mean her article on the Pathfinder wiki say her followers and followers of Shylen butt heads over this view. As each view the other is wasting potential, as she is presented and stated as being elitist in the wiki. It also says she will not answer prayers to non-elves, so take from that what you will.
Also frustratingly she is the patron of the Twilight Speakers in snowcaster elf society. A group whose purpose is to be envoys with other societies and open dialog and learn from other cultures (and also listed as where many snowcaster half elves come from).
Her faith and how her followers are described at times seem contradictory to each other.
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Gentle reminder that the wiki is an unreliable source, and pretty much never reflects the 2e state of things. If it’s not in Gods & Magic or another 2e book, I tend to ignore what else is said about gods.
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Galt. A country in constant chaos, turmoil and anarchy which really ought not be able to sustain itself.
It is also a pretty big area and I feel it would be more interesting seeing it break a part into numerous states. It could be a good place for monstrous races to gather and form their own petty kingdoms. I do really feel Avistan could use more frontier lands like Varisia.
Have you seen Night of the Grey Death? Galt should be a pretty different place going forward.
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Oprak is also a "land of monsters", sort of.
And yeah the wiki is not well maintained at all (the featured article has been the Kingmaker game for about 3 years now) and apparently decided to not update anything for 2e so as to not spoil 1e APs. Imagine my confusion when I went to the article for Jaha, a city described in Lost Omens: Mwangi Expanse, and it describes a city ruled by mad wizard kings who genocided the lizardfolk who lived there, which is completely not what that place is like in LOME even in its pre-modern phase. I imagine they wouldn't even allow an article on Stasian technology because it would "spoil" a 8 year old AP.
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There are some parts of the wiki that have the current info for 2e, to be fair, but it's true that a lot of it could use some updating. I imagine the team working on that is relatively small though.
Piling on Numeria and Alkenstar. There's nothing inherently wrong with them, it's just weird when I have to balance guns vs dragons as part of the official game.
I GM for my kids a lot so there's already tons of balancing I have to do so they can create their Pokemon summoners or whatnot. I'm tapped out even before "oh and I have a laser rifle with a magic rune." Aaargh.
Most other places I dislike, I passively dislike - Cheliax and Andoran are too stereotypical for my taste, but whatever. The weird emptiness of Casmaron and southern Garund bothers me, but I have confidence they'll fill it with something cool over time.
Cheliax. I just cannot stand Cheliax except as a distant unpleasant would-be empire that everyone rolls their eyes at. And Andoran just bores me.
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Pathfinder Wiki was never really focused on the crunch, moreso an archive of the fluff. If you want rules, consult the Archives of Nethys. However, the wiki is an excellent source of narrative when you have to remind yourself about who/what some name or place is that you read in a description. For example, while prepping an AP for my home campaign, I occasionally run across a obscure deity with whom I am not familiar. One quick peek at the wiki gets me a ton of useful information that I can 'take it or leave it'. The same can be said of towns and villages. Sometimes they received a wider workup in somepast product. The Wiki summarizes the information and gives you the original source. It might not always be updated perfectly for 2E, but in many cases the narrative remains the same between the editions. IMO, for a GM, the wiki is the 2nd most important saved link after AoN. YMMV
Have you seen Night of the Grey Death? Galt should be a pretty different place going forward.Nothing interesting to do with a revolutionary republic than clamp reaction back down upon it, I suppose.
I mean, I am curious to see how Gralton reacts to the terror ending in their homeland.
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I mean, I am curious to see how Gralton reacts to the terror ending in their homeland.Have you seen Night of the Grey Death? Galt should be a pretty different place going forward.Nothing interesting to do with a revolutionary republic than clamp reaction back down upon it, I suppose.
They would be [among] the reactionaries clamping down, yes.
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They would be [among] the reactionaries clamping down, yes.I mean, I am curious to see how Gralton reacts to the terror ending in their homeland.Have you seen Night of the Grey Death? Galt should be a pretty different place going forward.Nothing interesting to do with a revolutionary republic than clamp reaction back down upon it, I suppose.
Do you have any evidence for a reactionary clampdown? Night of the Grey Death’s ultimate foe being defeated seems like an objective good to me.
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Do you have any evidence for a reactionary clampdown? Night of the Grey Death’s ultimate foe being defeated seems like an objective good to me.They would be [among] the reactionaries clamping down, yes.I mean, I am curious to see how Gralton reacts to the terror ending in their homeland.Have you seen Night of the Grey Death? Galt should be a pretty different place going forward.Nothing interesting to do with a revolutionary republic than clamp reaction back down upon it, I suppose.
Basic pattern recognition? Paizo's pulled this trick before in Korvosa, Ravounel, Artume, and Vidrian. A Good turn, in the context of a revolutionary uprising or revolutionary republic, means the restoration of legitimate, ancient (that is to say, outmoded and rightfully superseded) legitimate institutions.
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Pathfinder is structurally build around on-screen things based on the efforts and desires from one or several groups of 3-6 people, since this is not just a setting it's also a game. Also, once the curtain falls on the story, the setting needs to prevent the efforts of those people being easily undone. Because we not only want an interesting setting, or a good story, we want the actual people playing the game to feel satisfied by it.
If there's something that's inappropriate to base on the efforts of a small group of exceptional people (which mind you, is not generally how actual history works) that's a thing they need to do off-screen.
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Basic pattern recognition? Paizo's pulled this trick before in Korvosa, Ravounel, Artume, and Vidrian. A Good turn, in the context of a revolutionary uprising or revolutionary republic, means the restoration of legitimate, ancient (that is to say, outmoded and rightfully superseded) legitimate institutions.Do you have any evidence for a reactionary clampdown? Night of the Grey Death’s ultimate foe being defeated seems like an objective good to me.They would be [among] the reactionaries clamping down, yes.I mean, I am curious to see how Gralton reacts to the terror ending in their homeland.Have you seen Night of the Grey Death? Galt should be a pretty different place going forward.Nothing interesting to do with a revolutionary republic than clamp reaction back down upon it, I suppose.
Umm... That is probably not the case since new First Citizen of Galt from Lost Omen Legends isn't connected to leadership of Gray Gardeners and night of gray death is pretty much dealing with that organization and its secret leader :p
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Basic pattern recognition? Paizo's pulled this trick before in Korvosa, Ravounel, Artume, and Vidrian. A Good turn, in the context of a revolutionary uprising or revolutionary republic, means the restoration of legitimate, ancient (that is to say, outmoded and rightfully superseded) legitimate institutions.Do you have any evidence for a reactionary clampdown? Night of the Grey Death’s ultimate foe being defeated seems like an objective good to me.They would be [among] the reactionaries clamping down, yes.I mean, I am curious to see how Gralton reacts to the terror ending in their homeland.Have you seen Night of the Grey Death? Galt should be a pretty different place going forward.Nothing interesting to do with a revolutionary republic than clamp reaction back down upon it, I suppose.
I don't think the explicitly evil hell empire is rightfully superseding anything unless you unironically believe might makes right
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I don't think the explicitly evil hell empire is rightfully superseding anything unless you unironically believe might makes rightBasic pattern recognition? Paizo's pulled this trick before in Korvosa, Ravounel, Artume, and Vidrian. A Good turn, in the context of a revolutionary uprising or revolutionary republic, means the restoration of legitimate, ancient (that is to say, outmoded and rightfully superseded) legitimate institutions.Do you have any evidence for a reactionary clampdown? Night of the Grey Death’s ultimate foe being defeated seems like an objective good to me.They would be [among] the reactionaries clamping down, yes.I mean, I am curious to see how Gralton reacts to the terror ending in their homeland.Have you seen Night of the Grey Death? Galt should be a pretty different place going forward.Nothing interesting to do with a revolutionary republic than clamp reaction back down upon it, I suppose.
You misunderstand, Zimmerwald is pretty big anti monarchist, so Korvosa getting rid of old queen and installing new one is abhorrent for him :p
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I'm for Galt being absorbed back into Taldor. Just to really hammer home the futility of those 50 years of revolution and excessive death.
I'm not sure How dare you secede from the great decadent empire is the best lesson to learn, like ever.
A new Galt unburdened by constant paranoïa, civil war and bloodshed sounds like a great opportunity for new dynamics in the area.
I could see Galt being a cautionary tale of revolution failing before tyranny, but we have enough of those in the real world. Personally, I'd like to see Galt be a success story, or at least a more complex one than "complete shaggy dog story".
That said, Galt being reabsorbed--and then there being an AP towards breaking free again--could be fun, I guess. Wet just had a Galt AP, though.
We had a Galt AP?
Did we? I guess not. I'm really behind on a lot of this stuff.
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Pretty sure we had a stand alone high level Galt adventure.bstill means the likelihood of revisiting the country in the near future somewhat unlikely, and codifying the results of that adventure is probably also a thing we won't see for some time
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A new Galt unburdened by constant paranoïa, civil war and bloodshed sounds like a great opportunity for new dynamics in the area.
I like the idea that Cheliax has benefitted hugely by the utter ruin in Galt, and various figures gleefully pass around whispered tales of lawlessness, atrocity and fear, as an example of what happens if the lessers get uppity and their betters don't keep a firm hand on the situation. Every tale of horror just reinforces to the hoi-polloi how utterly necessary their cruel tyranny is, to stave off such things.
And so, I would imagine that there are Chelish sorts who work behind the scenes to encourage things to remain terrible in Galt (and exaggerating the tales out of that country), as it serves as a great example of why the (brutal, racist, oppressive) Chelish way is the safe, sane, right choice.
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I’m increasingly certain several people in this conversation don’t know what happens in NotGD, and it’s annoying to talk around.
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I indeed hadn't--thank you so much for offering that context!
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Galt doesn’t deserve to be punished, and indeed it would be silly to take away the win from PCs who “won” that adventure - whatever comes next, there should be at least some good news coming.
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Irrisen is another. [snip]
I love the *idea* of a dark faerie tale land under an enchantment of perpetual winter, with evil faeries and trolls and wolves that walk amongst people and ice witches and all that.
But a country where the winter never ends, it snows pretty much every day, and *the snow never melts?* Gosh, after a few centuries, the snow would be like, a mile deep! (Even accounting for sublimation.) Plus, no vegetation in a land of perpetual winter. Which means no herbivores. Which means no carnivores. Which means, barren uninhabited icy hump not terribly useful for adventuring. Even with the 'magic trees what grow edible bark even during the winter' notion, that hardly seems sufficient to support enough migratory reindeer to feed the witches, the trolls, the wolves *and* the beleagured human population of Irrisen...
That said, I'd also love for their to be some sort of ice related evil god for the Witches to pay homage to. A NE 'Queen of Air Darkness' sort of fey Eldest, with domains of Evil, Magic, Weather, Air and Darkness, representing the season of winter, would be (ahem) cool.
But perhaps I've read too many Dresden Files books, and want a wicked fey Winter Queen. :)