That ONE place on Golarion


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Shadow Lodge

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keftiu wrote:
Galt doesn’t deserve to be punished, and indeed it would be silly to take away the win from PCs who “won” that adventure - whatever comes next, there should be at least some good news coming.

PCs played War for the Crown too, having their patron conquer her rightful lands from the people who have been misruling it in their revolutionary zeal (supernatural influence or not, the people were susceptible to it, and did the things they did) is surely a victory for them. It's just that it's also a victory for reaction.

Silver Crusade

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Way to miss the point.

Dark Archive

Rysky wrote:
Way to miss the point.

They have EXTREMELY strong anti monarchist opinions ^_^; Like sure fantasy genre usually has implications regarding monarchs and rightful rulers and yadda yadda, but they don't see what they are saying as exaggerating (even though they ARE exaggerating a lot)

Liberty's Edge

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zimmerwald1915 wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Galt doesn’t deserve to be punished, and indeed it would be silly to take away the win from PCs who “won” that adventure - whatever comes next, there should be at least some good news coming.
PCs played War for the Crown too, having their patron conquer her rightful lands from the people who have been misruling it in their revolutionary zeal (supernatural influence or not, the people were susceptible to it, and did the things they did) is surely a victory for them. It's just that it's also a victory for reaction.

Several things.

1. Winning War for the Crown does not grant you Galt.

2. The PCs who won War for the Crown are level 18. Those who win Night of the Gray Death are level 19. For Taldor to conquer Galt, it would require a significant part of its army AND all of the Queen's special friends. That is a risky committment for a big empire, especially for such a paltry prize.

3. There are other countries around who likely would prefer Taldor not to acquire Galt. Why would they stay idle ?

Why would those who freed themselves from the yoke of monarchy get back under it ?

Also, why do you want Monarchies to always be imperialist AND always win / never lose ?


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Fortunately, Pathfinder is not a simulation of medieval politics that Zimmerwald believes it to be, especally based on their numerous posts in the Hell's Rebels forum.

(Also not really sure what they're getting at with "Vidrian is bad for revolting from Cheliax" but I'm sure that's a very interesting topic.)

Dark Archive

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I think their opinion was basically that "Vidrian did their revolution wrong and thus are weak nation that will get reconquered by Cheliax again", I forgot whether it had to do with remaining Sargavans or not :p


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The Raven Black wrote:

1. Winning War for the Crown does not grant you Galt.

2. The PCs who won War for the Crown are level 18. Those who win Night of the Gray Death are level 19. For Taldor to conquer Galt, it would require a significant part of its army AND all of the Queen's special friends. That is a risky committment for a big empire, especially for such a paltry prize.

3. There are other countries around who likely would prefer Taldor not to acquire Galt. Why would they stay idle ?

Why would those who freed themselves from the yoke of monarchy get back under it ?

Frankly, no one should want Galt. Its a mess. Its been a mess for the last fifty years. The prospect of taking over administration of that quagmire should give everyone pause. Somehow though, Galt still has a population despite the Grey Gardeners. And after the mess in Night of the Gray Death, its just as possible that the country is in no position to govern itself and would crawl back to the Empire that's on the rise, which is probably to its benefit.

The Galtan Revolution was a mistake. A costly, tragic mistake. At least the Glorious Reclamation had the decency to not drag it out for half a century.

As of right now the only guidance the Night of the Gray Death offers is that after a period of intrigue and power vacuums the country stabilizes. Galt stabilizing at the level it was at is not a sign of success by any measure.

Sure, they could turn it around for themselves after its most stable governing body is eradicated after it turns out to be the minions of an aberrant monster. Its just as likely that the country is weakened and without the Grey Gardeners the country will get picked off and eaten up by its neighbors. Right now the fate of Galt is entirely in the realm of what story the GM wants to tell.

It would be a kindness for the entire country to get absorbed entirely by Taldor.


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Galt’s “most stable governing body” was a murderous cult quite literally tasked with destabilizing the nation. The Galtan Revolution wasn’t a mistake, it was hijacked by supernatural evil, and acting otherwise is just silly. There’s no sign that Camilia Drannoch - likely in charge of the nation in some capacity going forward - is anything other than competent and just.

I really don’t get this weird smug pro-empire tangent we’ve somehow gotten onto, especially when it flies in the face of all canon. Vidrian is a success story, as is Ravounel. Andoran is still chugging along just fine - and if we wanna get technical about it, then modern Osirion is a product of rebellion as well. Golarion is not a world where revolution is doomed or inherently flawed.


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It's also a little weird because... really? A nation being unstable and torn by violent infighting makes it more desirable for conquest? I don't want to get into real-world politics, especially not by bringing up recent real-world conflicts, but... I dunno about that one.


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And yet, despite all of the successful rebellions against Cheliax, Abrogail Thrune remains the evil Mary-Sue Queen who Asmodeus loves.


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Ventnor wrote:
And yet, despite all of the successful rebellions against Cheliax, Abrogail Thrune remains the evil Mary-Sue Queen who Asmodeus loves.

I think you stop being a Mary Sue when your rule marks the wholesale secession of Ravounel and the smashing of your navy to flinders. Abrogail is a queen who has seen Cheliax repeatedly embarrassed on the world stage, with very little to show for it.

She’s overdue for a win, if anything.

EDIT: Double-checked her entry in LO: Legends, and it basically presents her as a ruler who has largely failed to accomplish anything beyond the borders of Cheliax; her greatest win is stopping the Glorious Reclamation, which simply preserved some of the status quo. She’s described as “petulant” at one point. Isn’t the defining trait of a Mary Sue that they’re untouchable?


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I mean, no rational nation is going to much in the way of war or annex the neighbor while "Tar-Baphon got really uncomfortable close to apotheosis this time, Aroden is not available, and liches tend not to just let things go" is hanging over the Inner Sea. Since you never know whether Cheliax and Taldor and Galt and Andoran might have to have each others backs while the armies of the dead are at the gates.

If Thrune is clever, which she probably is, the move is to make good with your neighbors during this time in hopes they will owe you one down the line or will at least ignore whatever thing you need them to.


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keftiu wrote:

Galt’s “most stable governing body” was a murderous cult quite literally tasked with destabilizing the nation. The Galtan Revolution wasn’t a mistake, it was hijacked by supernatural evil, and acting otherwise is just silly. There’s no sign that Camilia Drannoch - likely in charge of the nation in some capacity going forward - is anything other than competent and just.

I really don’t get this weird smug pro-empire tangent we’ve somehow gotten onto, especially when it flies in the face of all canon. Vidrian is a success story, as is Ravounel. Andoran is still chugging along just fine - and if we wanna get technical about it, then modern Osirion is a product of rebellion as well. Golarion is not a world where revolution is doomed or inherently flawed.

There is no intrinsic aspect of revolution that makes it likely to succeed either. There are many places in Golarion where revolution has been successful. Galt is just not one of them.

And it may have been hijacked by a supernatural evil, but not everyone in Galt was a thrall or worshipper of it. The people followed along in this nonsense, turning each other in, offering neighbors up for sacrifice to the Gray Gardeners. Its tragic that when someone did get around to ousting a corrupt government, they too would be corrupted, but the same cycle continued on because for fifty years, no one thought that maybe the problem was the people who stayed the same through every government? For fifty years? The church of Pharasma should have called a crusade on Galt years ago for the abomination that is the Final Blades. (Actually, me expecting the Church of Pharasma to do anything is a fault of mine, so that's not fair.)

I don't have a problem with revolution. I have a problem with Galt. Its great that its not going to be bloody revolution foreverland anymore, but its no more guaranteed success now than it was the first time. Probably less so, now that Galt has been the main exporter of militant anarchists for decades.


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Not to mention that Molthune, Druma, and Kyonin are all between Cheliax and Galt by land - Thrune would be fighting most of Southeast Avistan to accomplish… what, exactly? Taldor has a better chance of pulling it off, but doing so would almost certainly invite aggression from Andoran. Either of these fights leaves all involved parties easy picking for Tar-Baphon, something no sane commander would sign off on.

Trying to conquer and integrate a vassal state with shattered infrastructure and a traumatized populace certain to rebel against you is a miserable task, and the prize for doing so is little more than bragging rights.

And again, it negates a player win in an official example, so I don’t expect it to happen. Paizo has let the fanbase win a big victory for Galt - they have no reason and no precedent for snatching it away.


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Why expect Galt to get any worse when the source of the rot has been removed?


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keftiu wrote:

And again, it negates a player win in an official example, so I don’t expect it to happen. Paizo has let the fanbase win a big victory for Galt - they have no reason and no precedent for snatching it away.

Why expect Galt to get any worse when the source of the rot has been removed?

I think Paizo just wanted to get people to stop talking about a Galt AP, so they solved the big problem and are going to play with more interesting locations.

And I expect Galt to get worse because even if the source is gone, the rest of the body is tainted by the culture that it fostered around it. PCs didn't solve the problem of Galt, they killed a monster.


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Kasoh wrote:
keftiu wrote:

And again, it negates a player win in an official example, so I don’t expect it to happen. Paizo has let the fanbase win a big victory for Galt - they have no reason and no precedent for snatching it away.

Why expect Galt to get any worse when the source of the rot has been removed?

I think Paizo just wanted to get people to stop talking about a Galt AP, so they solved the big problem and are going to play with more interesting locations.

And I expect Galt to get worse because even if the source is gone, the rest of the body is tainted by the culture that it fostered around it. PCs didn't solve the problem of Galt, they killed a monster.

The architect of endless revolutionary turnover is gone. The organization who worked to oppress the populace and destroy any hope for stability is shattered and (funnily enough) headless. The most prominent NPC in the nation is a popular idealist established to be smart and capable - and she put together the successful events of Night of the Grey Death.

I have every reason to believe that come 3e, we’ll see Camilia working with others to lead a better Galt.


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keftiu wrote:
Kasoh wrote:
keftiu wrote:

And again, it negates a player win in an official example, so I don’t expect it to happen. Paizo has let the fanbase win a big victory for Galt - they have no reason and no precedent for snatching it away.

Why expect Galt to get any worse when the source of the rot has been removed?

I think Paizo just wanted to get people to stop talking about a Galt AP, so they solved the big problem and are going to play with more interesting locations.

And I expect Galt to get worse because even if the source is gone, the rest of the body is tainted by the culture that it fostered around it. PCs didn't solve the problem of Galt, they killed a monster.

The architect of endless revolutionary turnover is gone. The organization who worked to oppress the populace and destroy any hope for stability is shattered and (funnily enough) headless. The most prominent NPC in the nation is a popular idealist established to be smart and capable - and she put together the successful events of Night of the Grey Death.

I have every reason to believe that come 3e, we’ll see Camilia working with others to lead a better Galt.

Fair enough. I think the generational trauma of Galts fifty years of bloody violence will take much longer to recover.


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Happily, those two statements aren't mutually exclusive, and they both make the nation more interesting and alive IMO.

keftiu wrote:
I really don’t get this weird smug pro-empire tangent we’ve somehow gotten onto, especially when it flies in the face of all canon. Vidrian is a success story, as is Ravounel. Andoran is still chugging along just fine - and if we wanna get technical about it, then modern Osirion is a product of rebellion as well. Golarion is not a world where revolution is doomed or inherently flawed.

There's also Oprak. Golarion is such a pro-revolution setting that even the bad guys can make a successful go of it from time to time. Granted part of their strategy was to also set up on a patch of land that nobody else really seemed to want, but they've still been recognized by at least two of their neighbors as an independent nation.

Dark Archive

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I honestly think though we might seen post Night of Gray Death Galt earlier though.

Like Mwangi Expanse book actually referred to events of slithering having happened directly and presence of oozemorphs in the city as well

Liberty's Edge

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I am all for Galt rising stronger from its too long bloody Terror. But then I'm French ;-)


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keftiu wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

Reminded that Golarion has a chaotic good deity of racial supremacy and traditionalism in that same sphere too.

Really feels like there was a huge disconnect somewhere in the process of creating that section of the world.

I mean, somehow Torag's "anathema: show mercy to the enemies of your people" survived into 2e, despite him being "Lawful Good." It's pretty deeply frustrating.

Especially given his place in the Godclaw, I don't see why he isn't LN.

I'm pretty sure that anathema is misinterpreted by most people. The way I see it, it's a more flexible version of the fairly common "show the villain no mercy" rule that being such as Ragathiel have.

Basically, to me at least, that anathema say "you can only spare villains if they don't threaten your peoples", which fit with Torag views on responsability and the like. You can show mercy to a personal nemesis or someone that threaten people you have no responsibility over, but if they threaten "your peoples", then it's your responsibility to put an end to their exaction for good. Torag is okay with you letting a villain get away if the one that may suffer from it is only you, or only peoples you have no responsibility to protect, but once it involve "your peoples", you shouldn't value that villain redemption over their lives, because in torag's eyes, your duty to protect them is more important than the life of whatever is threatenning them.

It seems that lot of people interpret the "ennemies of your people" as somehow encompassing whole races or nations (probably because for a long time and in lot of setting, dwarves had "racial hatred" toward goblin, orcs or other such races), and interpreted like that, it's indeed not good at all (basically being a call to genocide), but I see no indication that torag would indeed see things this way. That an hobgoblin soldier raiding your tow is an "ennemy of your people" is pretty obvious, but it doesn't mean that his son, or "random other hobgoblin of the region" also is. That an army of a neighboring nation attacking you is the "ennemy of your people" is clear, likewise for that nation government, but there is no indication that this apply for every citizen of it.

To me at least, that anathema basically say, "you can grant mercy to your foes at your discretion, exept when said foe threaten those you have a duty to protect, in which case you shall grant them none".

Radiant Oath

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

This is more a "no LONGER that one place" but I gotta say, the Quest for the Frozen Flame AP has made me cross the Realm of the Mammoth Lords off my "that one place" list. The AP really did a great job of making the place and its people interesting and now I'm brainstorming PCs to play in it.

I really think some of the recent APs have done a good job of making me actually want to see places on Golarion I'd previously found uninspiring, like the Kortos Isle and stuff (especially by showing there was more to it than JUST Absalom)!

Dark Archive

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Scarablob wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

Reminded that Golarion has a chaotic good deity of racial supremacy and traditionalism in that same sphere too.

Really feels like there was a huge disconnect somewhere in the process of creating that section of the world.

I mean, somehow Torag's "anathema: show mercy to the enemies of your people" survived into 2e, despite him being "Lawful Good." It's pretty deeply frustrating.

Especially given his place in the Godclaw, I don't see why he isn't LN.

I'm pretty sure that anathema is misinterpreted by most people. The way I see it, it's a more flexible version of the fairly common "show the villain no mercy" rule that being such as Ragathiel have.

Basically, to me at least, that anathema say "you can only spare villains if they don't threaten your peoples", which fit with Torag views on responsability and the like. You can show mercy to a personal nemesis or someone that threaten people you have no responsibility over, but if they threaten "your peoples", then it's your responsibility to put an end to their exaction for good. Torag is okay with you letting a villain get away if the one that may suffer from it is only you, or only peoples you have no responsibility to protect, but once it involve "your peoples", you shouldn't value that villain redemption over their lives, because in torag's eyes, your duty to protect them is more important than the life of whatever is threatenning them.

It seems that lot of people interpret the "ennemies of your people" as somehow encompassing whole races or nations (probably because for a long time and in lot of setting, dwarves had "racial hatred" toward goblin, orcs or other such races), and interpreted like that, it's indeed not good at all (basically being a call to genocide), but I see no indication that torag would indeed see things this way. That an hobgoblin soldier raiding your tow is an "ennemy of your people" is pretty obvious, but it doesn't mean that his son, or "random other hobgoblin of the...

I get feeling it got mentioned before, but there is also that Torag is god of defensive war, so interpreting that as "okay, our defense army will invade orc lands and exterminate them all" sounds weird when it seems to be meant to be more of "don't show mercy to invaders".

I think lot of people fail to see that because they live in countries that aren't under threat of invasion. Because when invasion starts, you really lose sympathy towards invaders and you need to start fighting to tooth and nail to protect yourself.

Shadow Lodge

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CorvusMask wrote:
Because when invasion starts, you really lose sympathy towards invaders and you need to start fighting to tooth and nail to protect yourself.

Just a note, this is a tendency, not a universal. Both ultra-opportunistic collaborators and ultra-principled defeatists exist.


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I really have no interest in the Mwangi Expanse. I'd rather hear about Rahadoum.


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Sarpati wrote:
I really have no interest in the Mwangi Expanse. I'd rather hear about Rahadoum.

Have you peeked at the 2e Mwangi book? It's vastly different from its 1e presentation.

Lantern Lodge

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For me, Molthune only exists to contrast Nirmathas. Without the latter, the former becomes completely irrelevant to me, but at the same time, I can entertain campaigns and adventures set in Nirmathas that have nothing to do with Molthune.

In other parts of the world, I frequently forget that Katapesh and Qadira are two different nations, and I constantly forget about Jalmeray. All three do have some interesting things to them, but so little has been done with them that I just cannot maintain interest.

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