Backup weapons

[Mark Hoover 330]

So I have seen a permutation of this comment on several threads: "martial types and most PCs need a melee, ranged, and a backup melee weapon." The question for my discussion and the stories I'd like to hear... when do those backups actually matter?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with having a melee and ranged option, even if your PC isn't a switch-hitter build. Anecdotally I've seen no less than 3 barbarian builds where, if the PC couldn't get to melee range for some reason, their character basically just stood around and tried to Intimidate to demoralize a foe for several levels. For Str based martial types I have strongly urged players to include a sling on every character; they're cheap, easy to carry, and the ammo is cheap as well so if the foe is airborne or whatever, they've got SOMETHING to do and it adds Str to damage w/out breaking the bank.

But maybe this is an indictment of my poor GM'ing skills, but PCs in my games are rarely Grappled or Disarmed and I've only had one PC in one encounter have their weapon Sundered. Having a Light melee weapon just in case of being Grappled has never once paid off in my games.

I'm looking for your anecdotes or examples of the importance of backup weapons and characters justifying them.

[Mightypion]

Actually, my strength based martials on lower levels have:

1: 2 handed melee weapon
2: 1 2 handed reach weapon
3: A shield and 1 handed combination
4: Possible a boarding axe (+2 climb)
5: Some type of ranged armament, often a sling to make use of Strength.

Axes, in EITR, are secretly pretty good because you can get +1 to all of your attack rolls with all of your weapon types.

I typically start combat with the reach weapon (especially if combat reflexes) and protect my actual reach combatants with it, once melee is joined i drop the reach weapon, typically pick the 2 handed melee weapon and go to town.

Shield and board is good if I just want to tank up, there are encounters which call for this. Shield and baord + combat exerptise is +3AC at low levels, frequently enough to move you from 18ish to 21.

[Claxon]

When do backup weapons matter? Mostly a low levels when you can't magic your way around an issue. Like being a melee weapon user against a flying ranged enemy.

With respect to grappling, it's kind of all or nothing. Either you focus the entire character around grappling or you don't bother. With NPCs, it's kind of unfair to throw a dedicated grappler at the party. Either you send them alone and the PCs beat them to death, or you send them in a group (and they're potentially ineffective due to level), or you faf around with the encounter level and tune it just right to completely invalidate one PC on the battlefield....which isn't very fun for that player.

Grappling with NPCs just isn't that much fun IMO.

[Tim Emrick]

I recently played through a couple of APs in Society mode, with a handful of other adventures fit in to fill advancement gaps and take us all up to 18th level. My character in that was a ranger/fighter whose primary weapon was an earth breaker. At low levels, I had a ranseur for reach, but once I could take Lunge, I used the earth breaker for that, too. (I also took the hunter's trick that allowed me to move 5 ft as a swift action wo/provoking, which helped get inside the reach of all those big foes in Giantslayer.) I kept a longsword in case of a grapple (fairly common in both APs), and a dagger in case of being swallowed (much rarer). For ranged combat, I carried a bow (with adaptive as soon as I could afford it, so it could keep up with my gradually increasing Str) but once I acquired winged boots, the bow saw much less use because the earth shaker was so much more lethal.

So, the short version is my martial PC kept to his favored weapon as much possible, and actively collected gear that let him circumvent obstacles to using that primary weapon. But he also had alternatives so he could always stay in the fight.

[Bjørn Røyrvik]

My characters always have a dagger and mundanes (and most casters) always have one melee and one missile weapon. I think pretty much every one has needed some sort of back-up at some point. Grappling does occur and light weapons have been useful for that.
Justification: 'it came in handy on a couple of occasions'

[Mark Hoover 330]

Again, backup RANGED weapons I get. Yes, low levels this tactic is clutch, but even between levels 5-10 I've seen, in my own games anecdotally, melee martials resort to a magic ranged weapon rather than hoping they'll have flying when it counts.

No, I'm talking about what Claxon mentions here, like having a dagger JUST IN CASE you get grappled. Does that happen a lot in other folks' games? Like, I have one player in one of my games that ALWAYS carries a hand axe on every martial he plays b/c one time, years ago, the PCs went against some homebrewed monster with Swallow Whole and the PC was Small sized but Str based and JUST HAPPENED to have a hand axe on his character so he cut his way to freedom.

I don't know, it just seems like golf bagging melee weapons is just unnecessary. Mighty P, I get the variety of combat options that gives you, but how often do you switch between them?

At low levels I can understand the following scenario: you don't know what monsters your characters might encounter but you, as a player, know that some undead have DR that is overcome by either B or S/P damage, so you pick up a monrningstar. To be safe, you also grab a cold-iron dagger and a wooden club. This ensures that if the Morningstar gets taken from you or dropped you've got SOME way of defending yourself and these are pretty cost effective.

Beyond that, I just don't see PCs getting swallowed, grappled, disarmed, sundered or otherwise messed up enough to justify having a backup melee arsenal.

[Take 10]

I have actually seen several instances of "needing a back-up weapon" in the game.

Both with being disarmed (having a Judge who actually knows how to do that matters though - if the guy running the NPC doesn't know HOW to do it, it's not likely that the monster is going to do it) and with finding yourself in a grapple (or worse yet, swallowed).

anecdotes:
1) I have had a PC in the situation of being swallowed by a monster that the rest of the party killed - and then I found I had no way to cut my way out. No dagger... had to tell the Judge that my guy was going to chew his way out of the beasty... Then I got to talk strongly to my companions about leaving me in the thing while they sorted treasure... yeah - not going to do that again. Every one of my PCs get's a dagger now.

2) While running a game, I had one of the PCs in the mouth of a Ramoraz and was about to swallow this Halfling Greatsword Fighter, when he killed the monster with a dagger he had in Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath... Glorious game. The dagger melted on the blow that killed the Ice Worm...

Link to an older thread that sort of relates to this...

Painlords what to expect at a PFS Table.

"A melee characters should have a back up weapon and spellcasters have a backup spell component pouch/holy symbol in case something happens to the primary." - Painlord

[Mightypion]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

I don't know, it just seems like golf bagging melee weapons is just unnecessary. Mighty P, I get the variety of combat options that gives you, but how often do you switch between them?

I typically switch/drop/use claws if Abyssal bloodrager once or twice per fight. I really like being able to draw rather then pick up a weapon after this too :).

Looking at a recent combat log:
I started with a +1 Greatsword, rolled high on init, switched to longspear (was prison break so 100% loot, greatsword was looted) for AoO, mate got in trouble, dropped longspear (free) 5 foot stepped, abyssal bloodraged to use claws, when situation was resolved drew shield advancing on a ranged enemy protected by a melee foe with reach, drew sword in second advance action, got dropped in a pit because effing enemy wizard and I no longer had my reach weapon with me to threaten his pit casting (5 foot short), tried to use shield as springboard to get out (eventually did with this an aid another), party took out wizard in the meantime, but reinforcements arrived to swarm our backline so I drew greatsword after being out of pit ran at them a turn later.

So, 5 times in that fight? Will of course massively be reduced once I hit level 6 and using a free action to drop and draw a weapon as part of your move action has drawbacks.

Let me put it differently. I start with my reach weapon out, nearly always. If things go very well, I have no need of switch to other weapons, and can handle enemies with combat reflexes and reach. If things dont go well, I actually have options.

[Kasoh]

A cold iron dagger is my go to back up. Daggers are just something I always keep on a character in case of being swallowed whole.

Otherwise, a primary weapon and a ranged weapon (bow, x-bow, or cantrip) are all I roll with. Unless you get ahold of neat, unique abilities on specific weapons. I had a wizard that carried two different scimtars. So yeah.

[Claxon]

My big problem with backup weapons is by the time you have +2 weapons the backup weapons are near worthless.

If everyone used ABP where you could at least switch your enhancement bonus between weapons you would be alright. Personally I think the cost of switch between weapons is its own detriment (and I like the idea that characters get better instead of their gear).

[Kasoh]

Claxon wrote:

My big problem with backup weapons is by the time you have +2 weapons the backup weapons are near worthless.

If everyone used ABP where you could at least switch your enhancement bonus between weapons you would be alright. Personally I think the cost of switch between weapons is its own detriment (and I like the idea that characters get better instead of their gear).

I suppose it depends on the adventure, but its not uncommon to collect more than a dozen daggers, longswords, bows, from groups of NPCs that are defeated and as you level up, those have bonuses too.

Going from a +2 weapon to a masterwork weapon is only a -1 to hit. Unless a PC is highly specialized into the use of one weapon, their attack bonus with a different weapon that uses the same stat will be within 2-4 points.

[Mightypion]

The utility of backup weapons of course reduces greatly the more levels you get.

Said character, at lets say level 8-12. Would have his impact butchering axe, autoenlarge when rage, longarm and/or longarm bracers and rarely use alterntive weaponry unless for utility.

[Claxon]

Kasoh wrote:

Claxon wrote:

My big problem with backup weapons is by the time you have +2 weapons the backup weapons are near worthless.

If everyone used ABP where you could at least switch your enhancement bonus between weapons you would be alright. Personally I think the cost of switch between weapons is its own detriment (and I like the idea that characters get better instead of their gear).

I suppose it depends on the adventure, but its not uncommon to collect more than a dozen daggers, longswords, bows, from groups of NPCs that are defeated and as you level up, those have bonuses too.

Going from a +2 weapon to a masterwork weapon is only a -1 to hit. Unless a PC is highly specialized into the use of one weapon, their attack bonus with a different weapon that uses the same stat will be within 2-4 points.

You don't sell all that junk you didn't want, so you could buy things you did?

[Coidzor]

I've had characters get swallowed and they could only use a dagger to cut themselves out. One time we had to have a second character get swallowed by the monster in order to give one PC a dagger because he hadn't thought he needed something like that as part of his gear and there was no way to cut him out otherwise.

I've had a lot of situations where GMs adhoc declared that it was too awkward to try to cut something with a sword or axe, but a dagger could do it no problem.

Flying enemies generally can't be Greatsworded in the face if you can't fly yourself. Even if you can fly, you still need a ranged option if they can outrun you or run circles around you in the air.

Claxon wrote:

My big problem with backup weapons is by the time you have +2 weapons the backup weapons are near worthless.

Unless you literally cannot harm the enemy without the backup weapon. A Cold Iron Morningstar is cheap and not much weight and very useful if you can't harm them with slashing damage from your +2 Greatsword or either the slashing damage or fire damage from your +1 Flaming Greatsword.

Of course, as you get +2 weapons, you should also be looking at getting alternative movement modes at least in emergency situations through things like potions if not more permanent magical items or abilities or through established tactics working with other PCs. This will minimize the situations where you would need a backup in the first place.

There are certainly mechanical limitations that make it a lot less fun, but there are use-cases unless you have a GM who deliberately avoids that kind of thing.

Claxon wrote:

You don't sell all that junk you didn't want, so you could buy things you did?

With certain GMs, it makes sense to keep some of it around since you don't have to spend money to get it and you permanently halve the gp value of stuff you get if you sell it (and don't have a party crafter).

If the GM replenishes WBL that is lost by selling for half, then the only reason to have it is for the time between when you get it and when you can liquidate it and buy more suitable replacements if replacements are even needed.

[Andostre]

If I'm playing a martial character, I'll usually have a main melee weapon of choice, a bow/crossbow, and then a backup weapon that has three qualities:

It can be both melee or ranged without penalty,

I can have it ready to throw with just a move action,

and it has a different damage type than my primary weapon.

So, if I've got a Slashing or Bludgeoning primary weapon, I can drop it and draw a dagger with a move action and then either throw it at someone or use it in melee vs. something resistant to my primary weapon's type.

Daggers are piercing or slashing, but I can use a club if I need a bludgeoning backup weapon. I can also use light hammers, starknives, and chakrams if I have martial weapon proficiency with them.

Rarely does this hypothetical situation where this flexible backup weapon will come into play, but it's usually just a few extra gold to have those bases covered, and by the time I've reached mid-levels, I've replaced the backup weapon with a magic weapon that nobody else has looted.

[Mudfoot]

IMC (low levels) everyone has a dagger. Because IRL people did (or at least a decent knife). Though the sorceress has never used hers and the rogue of course has about eight. The ranger also had a throwing axe which worked as a perfectly competent backup weapon, until it got confiscated.

As for big iron, the cleric (or Cayden) has a morningstar as an alternative to his rapier which proved useless against skeletons; the fighter has a cold iron longsword to back up his +1 bastard scimitar, because we found it and someone has to carry the thing.

And everyone has a bow or crossbow, though we're currently almost out of arrows so the fighter has resorted to some javelins he found.

[PCScipio]

If you get swallowed whole, you need a light slashing or piercing weapon if you want to cut your way out. Your greatsword won't help you.

Also, some weapons don't work very well underwater.

[Kasoh]

Claxon wrote:

Kasoh wrote:

Claxon wrote:

My big problem with backup weapons is by the time you have +2 weapons the backup weapons are near worthless.

If everyone used ABP where you could at least switch your enhancement bonus between weapons you would be alright. Personally I think the cost of switch between weapons is its own detriment (and I like the idea that characters get better instead of their gear).

I suppose it depends on the adventure, but its not uncommon to collect more than a dozen daggers, longswords, bows, from groups of NPCs that are defeated and as you level up, those have bonuses too.

Going from a +2 weapon to a masterwork weapon is only a -1 to hit. Unless a PC is highly specialized into the use of one weapon, their attack bonus with a different weapon that uses the same stat will be within 2-4 points.

You don't sell all that junk you didn't want, so you could buy things you did?

Sure. But how often do you sell loot? Picking up a single mwk or +1 dagger from the body of a cultist at the start of a dungeon will satisfy for rest of the adventure, and maybe more. By the time we're worrying about the backup to a +2 weapon, a handful of mwk or +1 weapons is just a fraction of the total loot.

[Dragonchess Player]

As mentioned, the "need" for a light backup weapon is not because of grappling NPCs but rather because of monsters with constrict/improved grab/rake/swallow whole/etc. Animals (including those summoned via spells) such as bears, big cats, snakes, etc. can be dangerous as well.

Until freedom of movement is commonly available, encounters involving creatures with grappling-based attacks are often some of the more difficult ones for many PCs. Without a light backup weapon they are potentially deadly, combining damage with preventing the grappled PC from acting.

[Dragonchess Player]

For a backup bludgeoning weapon, a battle aspergillum is 5 gp (+20 gp for alchemical silver). Almost exactly the same as a light mace, it can be filled with holy water to damage incorporeal undead or shadow demons.

Add a cold iron dagger (4 gp) to the alchemical silver battle aspergillum and the PC can penetrate the most common DRs (except for adamantine and magic) for less than 30 gp.

From an action economy standpoint cesti or spiked gauntlets make great backup weapons.

[Tim Emrick]

Dragonchess Player wrote:

From an action economy standpoint cesti or spiked gauntlets make great backup weapons.

My Gorumite inquisitor eventually chose to focus on ranged attacks rather than melee, but still carries a adamantine greatsword for when he needs to melee or deal with hardness, and cesti for when he doesn't have time to switch weapons (one cold iron, one alchemical silver, just in case).

[Mark Hoover 330]

So to sum up so far:

1. I and everyone else commonly agrees, folks need a melee and a ranged weapon, even if you're not built to switch hit
2. Backup melee weapons are useful in low levels (1-6?)
3. Being grappled, swallowed whole or other situations where Light melee weapons are needed is an uncommon to rare occurrence

I homebrew all of my games so I don't know the frequency of powerful grappling Animal types, underwater adventures or Swallow Whole monsters in APs and PFS scenarios. Anecdotally, it doesn't seem like those foes come up, say, half the time or more in other folks' games to necessitate backup weapons. Mostly, keeping a dagger in your boot or whatever is situational for the one time you might get captured, swallowed, or put in a sleeper hold.

[Java Man]

Maybe I'm not reading so well, but are folks stating/implying that a light weapon is needed in case of being grappled? Shouldn't that be a one handed weapon?

[Mark Hoover 330]

Light or One-Handed:

Grapple wrote:

Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.

[Claxon]

Anything that does require two hands to wield.

You could make an argument about using a two handed weapon as an improvised one-handed weapon (at reduced effectiveness)...though I don't think I would try it.

[Java Man]

Thank you both, that is what I thought, just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing something. (Because none of us have ever been confused by grappling rules....)

[Matthew Downie]

But if you're swallowed whole, it has to be a Light slashing or piercing weapon, and those are useful against grapplers too.

[Claxon]

Claxon wrote:

Anything that doesn't require two hands to wield.

You could make an argument about using a two handed weapon as an improvised one-handed weapon (at reduced effectiveness)...though I don't think I would try it.

Whoops!

[Mark Hoover 330]

I don't even know why I questioned backup weapons though, to be honest. Looking back over the past few PCs I was lucky enough to play when I wasn't GM'ing, I have a 1/2 elf wizard that carried a mundane, non-masterwork club, dagger and light crossbow from levels 1-3 despite only having a Str 10, a halfling warpriest 5/hunter 3 specialized in the halfling slingstaff but also carrying a spare mwk sling and a +1 silvered dagger, and finally a human fighter (shielded fighter) 3 whose character sheet shows he was carrying a mwk shortsword and mwk heavy steel shield, but also had a club, mwk longspear and a sling.

I honesty don't know why I do this as a player. Maybe, RARELY with those 2 martial types I might get caught unawares but the wizard PC? She always had Acid Splash as one of her Cantrips every day, I specifically chose an Owl familiar so that I could weaponize it in desperate situations, and the majority of fights my role was to deliver buff spells, usually on scrolls, and stay under Cover or Concealment whenever possible. If a situation comes up for her where she's gotta' grab that dagger on her belt, chances are I'm already done for...

[OmniMage]

Speaking of backup weapons, is it worth worrying about getting caught in an antimagic field or magic dead zone? I'm thinking that there are many inexpensive magic items that store things for you. Like the efficient quiver which can store 6 items shaped and sized like a bow, and 60 arrows.

[Claxon]

Generally speaking antimagic field isn't a concern because it's cast centered on the caster and is a high level spell. Most casters aren't willing to completely nerf themselves by casting it.

Dead magic zone would hopefully be something you would know about before being there, because otherwise it completely eliminates the abilities of several characters which makes for rather unfun experiences for some players.

[Kasoh]

I'd give it a modicum of thought as one enters high level play, but in an Antimagic zone, your weapons and armor are still mwk weapons and armor and in a stats race, the martial character without magic is going to beat the pants off of a caster character who doesn't have magic.

Unless you're going to go deep into alchemical solutions, its a passing thought. I figure that most GMs are like me and won't use it because it requires everyone stopping for five minutes to recalculate every single stat on their sheet, and a GM has to do that for every NPC in the encounter.

[Mudfoot]

Even if you don't expect to use stab anything with it, doesn't it make sense to carry a dagger anyway? It's just incredibly useful. A knife is about the only tool that any survival expert will say is 100% essential. It's cheap, light, easily concealable, easily replaceable and widely accepted in society. The fact that it's a pretty decent all-purpose weapon is just gravy.

[Andostre]

I agree, but I think a lot of times people slip into "will this thing help me with the game mechanics" and forget "it is very plausible for a dude to carry a dagger in this world."

[Lynceus]

My main problem with the "backup weapon" argument is that it doesn't hold much water unless you're Dex-based. I routinely see Str-based characters with Strength 4 points or higher than their Dex, they naturally lack Precise Shot (which might not matter against a flying enemy, but it is a huge penalty), and then there's the action economy to switch to a bow with a lower (or no!) enhancement bonus. This routinely leads to a loss of a ton of to hit, and unless it's an expensive composite bow, you're throwing a d8 damage. If the enemy is a dragon, it might have DR/magic which you have to take into account.

Back in D&D 2e, everyone could have a golf bag of weapons, but if the GM is strict on treasure, it becomes a pain to really be good enough that you're not praying for a crit. Is this better than just trying to Intimidate foes, as the Barbarian upthread tends to do? For the most part, this is a game for specialists, and spreading your resources thin to be able to have a reasonable off weapon really doesn't pay off.

Again, my experience, obviously others have had different experiences. I don't really think it should be this way, but the best solution is to have a GM who is very liberal about consumables. Having players find a bunch of useful magic arrows, for example, and if they sell them, well, you tried.

[Heather 540]

True, it's better to specialize in Pathfinder. But don't forget that d8 is still bigger than zero. If you're a Fighter and the dragon is high above your head, a small chance to hit with a bow is better than just sitting there doing nothing. After all, the backup weapon is just that - a backup. You use it when you don't have access to your main one.

[Andostre]

Yeah, I don't think anybody here is arguing for putting any feats or class options into a backup weapon. It's more a question of what do you have on hand when your primary weapon won't work.

[Mightypion]

Have I mentioned that axes are really good in EITR?

One of my high strength but still 14 Dex dudes has:

1: Orc Butchering axe
2: Bardiche
3: Dwarfen Waraxe + shield
4: Boarding Axe (+2 to climb out of pits, also light)
5: Some throwing axes

All of them benefit from weapon focus axes. He can intimidating display with all of them.

[Evilserran]

I have fought constructs that were capable of disarming my swashbuckler, and part of their action includes locking the weapon inside their body afterwards, so it cannot be reacquired. There is the "your weapon sticks to X" effect some mimics have and a few other creatures, My cavalier kept charging a mimic door and leaving the lances in it, while pulling another out for the next charge. Several spells that can whisk your weapon away or destroy it outright. There is actually quite a few reasons to have a backup weapon. My backup weapons are rarely any different then the primary though. The swashbuckler mentioned earlier had has +1 ghost touch adamantine scimitar taken away, so i began fighting with my cold iron scimitar, when that got taken i switched to a silver scimitar. My aforementioned cavalier had a +1 ghost touch lance, with a +1 cold iron lance and 3 masterwork lances. Also, any character i have that doesnt wear gauntlets usually has a cestus JIC.

My jack of all trades crazy rogue/magus/cleric/bard/brawler/hunter/ranger uses a halfling sling staff with 2 others for backups, as they are melee and ranged.

[Claxon]

Mightypion wrote:

Have I mentioned that axes are really good in EITR?

One of my high strength but still 14 Dex dudes has:

1: Orc Butchering axe
2: Bardiche
3: Dwarfen Waraxe + shield
4: Boarding Axe (+2 to climb out of pits, also light)
5: Some throwing axes

All of them benefit from weapon focus axes. He can intimidating display with all of them.

Ummm...I hate to be the one to tell you this but weapon focus is for a specific weapon, not a family of weapons.

I know the way it's written could lead you to think it's something like "all swords" or "all axes" but it really means you pick say "falchion" or "butchering axe". Sorry mate, but you've misunderstood the rules.

[Mightypion]

Claxon wrote:

Ummm...I hate to be the one to tell you this but weapon focus is for a specific weapon, not a family of weapons.

I know the way it's written could lead you to think it's something like "all swords" or "all axes" but it really means you pick say "falchion" or "butchering axe". Sorry mate, but you've misunderstood the rules.

I did specify Elephant in the room (EITR) in the first sentence.

Edited some snarkiness away.

[Lynceus]

Yes, but the problem with throwing weapons is their terrible range (and being badly supported, making a Blinkback Belt practically a required item).

And as for the d8 being better than 0...I'm not sure. I mean, part of the problem is being able to hit in the first place in most cases. It seems people would be better served carrying around consumable magic items like potions of fly or some wacky wonderous item like a Feather Token or something, than trying to figure out how to make bow work effectively at higher levels. Or even the humble tanglefoot bag- touch AC is usually easy to hit even with low Dexterity.

[Mightypion]

Throwing axes are strictly a < Level 6 item for me.
Stuff like, free action, switch bardiche to one handed, draw throw axe as part of move action, throw axe as standard at someone who did not enter melee because he did not want to provoke AoOs from you.

They are ok for that, when you want to protect your backline and perhaps provoke an attack.

Pila are also useful in low level combat. Removing shield boni can be quite potent.

But well, the more levels you get the less important switching weapons becomes.

[Andostre]

Mightypion wrote:

I did specify Elephant in the room (EITR) in the first sentence.

I was going to ask, but I didn't know what the acronym meant.

[Mark Hoover 330]

For folks that are like "you can't hit with a backup ranged weapon on a Str based, highly specialized PC" please remember: such martial types usually need between a 6-8 or better on a D20 to hit with their uber melee weapon. If you actually look at the monster creation rules though, and the avg AC by CR, those same martials might need a 10-11 on a D20 to hit a flying creature with a CR equal to their APL. Hitting 50% of the time is still worth it.

But you're right; they likely don't have Precise Shot. When does that matter? When your friends are in the way. If your friends are in the way, you're either at a level where Fly speeds are achievable through magic or items or said Flying creature is engaging in melee that the martial might be able to get to.

Finally... slings. We're talking a 50' range increment, the weapon and ammo are super cheap, and it adds Str bonus to damage automatically. This is the reason I strongly urge every player running a martial PC to carry a sling.

The other thing I suggest to every Divine spellcaster with access to this spell is to have Magic Stone, or scrolls thereof. It's a level 1 spell, cheap on a scroll and gives you 30 minutes in which to fire up to 3 enchanted sling bullets that are +1 to hit with and deal 1d6+1 damage (2d6+2 to undead)

The action economy stinks, I get that. You have to switch your Str based martial from their mega melee to a ranged weapon that takes 2 hands and a Move action to load, plus they have to either have the Magic Stone cast ahead of time or they've gotta wait for the spell to get cast for them to have that bonus. That stinks but the alternatives, as mentioned above, could be that your martial melee specialist stands around doing nothing or may even make themselves a target for a foe.

[Ryze Kuja]

I think every martial should have a backup weapon of some kind, because when you roll a 1 and your weapon goes flying 10-15ft away, and you would have to head through "AoO Alley" to get it, it makes more sense to pull out your backup weapon and fight your way through to your primary weapon rather than take your chances with acrobatics rolls. Archers should always have a backup weapon as well, because if you roll a 1 and your bowstring snaps, you're screwed.

Beginning at level 5, every single character has access to fly either from class abilities or items, so every martial should have a ranged weapon for dealing with flying threats (or enemies on high ground or across ravines), or better yet, something that allows them to fly like a party wizard, broom of flying, winged boots, wings of flying, or a magic carpet. You might laugh, but groups who have each person pitch in 4-5k gold for a party-owned 20,000g Flying Carpet around lvl 4-5ish so they can fly for out-of-combat solutions, but then allow their martial to fly on it during combat is very handy. Your martial can now skip difficult terrain, hop off the carpet, kill a guy, hop back on the carpet, go kill the archer shooting from up on the ridge, then fly up and start harassing the Flight Hexed Witch, etc. Your martial becomes Murderhobo Aladdin.

"I CAN SHOW YOU MY GREATSWORD
SHINING, SHIMMERING, SLAAAAAAUUUGHTER
TELL ME BAD GUY NOW WHEN DID YOU LAST LET YOUR HEART DIVIDE"

[Claxon]

Mightypion wrote:

Claxon wrote:

Ummm...I hate to be the one to tell you this but weapon focus is for a specific weapon, not a family of weapons.

I know the way it's written could lead you to think it's something like "all swords" or "all axes" but it really means you pick say "falchion" or "butchering axe". Sorry mate, but you've misunderstood the rules.

I did specify Elephant in the room (EITR) in the first sentence.

Edited some snarkiness away.

Okay, but who knows what elephant in the room is (or that is what EITR means)? I sure as hell don't. (I googled EITR and got a bunch of results for a video game)

You talk about it like that's something people should widely recognize and I don't think that's true.

[Wonderstell]

@Claxon

I'd say it's a pretty well-known set of houserules. It may not be discussed as much on the Paizo forums as there's a considerable population of people that play by PFS Society, but for homebrews it's common to use Elephant in the room or something similar.

[Mudfoot]

There was a thread in the Homebrew section about it a couple of years ago, probably titled ...Elephant in the Room.... It's essentially about getting rid of the feat taxes for martials and condensing the Improved / Greater feats into their base versions so you get the better ones automatically.

[Lynceus]

Lol, Ryze, well, if your group plays with critical fumbles, yes, I suppose thats a concern. Though the locked gauntlet and weapons cords are also a thing.

I mean, if carrying a ranged weapon works out for people, that's great, it just hasn't been my experience. I see these "just carry a bow" discussions all the time, and what I usually see happen in game is:

"Ok so the monster is just going to fly around and hit you with it's 50 ft. range electricity ray for 2d8 damage, and that's +12 to hit vs. touch AC".

"Ok great, so I drop my weapon and use move action to get out my bow and take a shot at it."

"Alright, it's AC is 21 and it has a 20% miss chance due to Wind Stance."

"Uh..right, ok, so, let's see, I'm level 5, so that's +2 Dex, +5 BAB, and +1 for my masterwork bow, so...rats, rolled an 11. I miss."

And sure, a ~40% chance to hit ain't nothing, but it's less than a coin flip, and there has to be something more efficient you could be doing in this case.