So, maybe its just me, this seems like a case of jealously. A character without an 18 strength and/or no access to heavy armor wants access to bulwark without paying the "cost" and therefore thinks it should just be added to medium armor. I just don't see a justification for it narratively and philosophically it "feels" like a balancing metric for characters that have a lot of other benefits not encroaching on the nitch that is generally filled by champions & fighters. YMMV
Did you intend to post in this thread?
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If you can finagle 14 dex, you can also spend 2 class feats on the rogue dedication and get master reflex that way. So compared to the 10 dex character who spends 3 feats on sentinel, you can have the same reflex save and -1 AC. If you're worried about giving up Int for those two dex boosts, skill mastery is a really good feat to round out the 3 feat investment in the rogue dedication.That is a huge constraint on build just to avoid taking the sentinel archetype.
My take is that only characters who want Str but not Dex should consider Sentinel. If you don't want Str, you are better off investing a little bit in dex.
You do get 25 stat increases over the course of a character's career after all.
If you can finagle 14 dex, you can also spend 2 class feats on the rogue dedication and get master reflex that way. So compared to the 10 dex character who spends 3 feats on sentinel, you can have the same reflex save and -1 AC. If you're worried about giving up Int for those two dex boosts, skill mastery is a really good feat to round out the 3 feat investment in the rogue dedication.That is a huge constraint on build just to avoid taking the sentinel archetype.My take is that only characters who want Str but not Dex should consider Sentinel. If you don't want Str, you are better off investing a little bit in dex.
You do get 25 stat increases over the course of a character's career after all.
I would expect most characters to want a little Dex for Reflex saves, anyway.
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I would expect most characters to want a little Dex for Reflex saves, anyway.
Mighty Bulwark fixes your reflex save, so that works for like the Spirit Instinct Barbarian (who gets a Str-based ranged attack), so they can leave their Dex at 10 if they don't plan on being stealthy or acrobatic.
But for like the Warpriest Cleric who's being pulled a bunch of different ways, a little bit of dex is probably a better option.
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I don't know why people think medium armor is a problem.
A character with medium armor proficiency can manage the same AC as a max dex character in light armor (or explorer's clothing) with a single boost to dex by eating a -5 speed penalty. The speed penalty is fixable with a general feat (fleet) or by several ancestry feats, or a lot of strength.
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I don't know why people think medium armor is a problem.
A character with medium armor proficiency can manage the same AC as a max dex character in light armor (or explorer's clothing) with a single boost to dex by eating a -5 speed penalty. The speed penalty is fixable with a general feat (fleet) or by several ancestry feats, or a lot of strength.
Medium Armor is a transitional armor for anyone who cares about optimization. At level 20, you don't stay in Medium Armor. Either you have no Strength and then you choose Light Armor for lower Speed and check penalties. Or you have high Strength and by that time you should have the 18 required for Heavy Armor.
It seems a lot of people don't see that as a problem. I personally think it's sad, from a diversity point of view: I have a lot of characters that I'd far prefer to picture in a breastplate or hide armor but end up fully clad in plate armor. I find full plate to be thematic for a Paladin, but not for a Barbarian, Magus or Alchemist.
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I don't think medium armor is a problem at all. I think it's a solid option for builds that have first and second ability priorities other than Dex. Start with Dex 12 or 14, and gradually bump it up as you level up. Eventually you won't need medium anymore and light could suffice, but medium armor has few downsides; this isn't like 1E where you'd be taking armor check penalties. If by level 10 you're at Dex 16 in breastplate that's a bit redundant, but not actually harmful.
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I don't think medium armor is a problem at all. I think it's a solid option for builds that have first and second ability priorities other than Dex. Start with Dex 12 or 14, and gradually bump it up as you level up. Eventually you won't need medium anymore and light could suffice, but medium armor has few downsides; this isn't like 1E where you'd be taking armor check penalties. If by level 10 you're at Dex 16 in breastplate that's a bit redundant, but not actually harmful.
In that scenario, it might just come down to property rune preference - if you have any.
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I would expect most characters to want a little Dex for Reflex saves, anyway.
Isn't that really part of the problem though? This notion that pretty much everyone needs a certain amount of Dex?
Or you have high Strength and by that time you should have the 18 required for Heavy Armor.
That's only really true for Fighters and Champions though.
I have a L5 Mutagenist in PFS, and a Breastplate has worked out really quite well for him. He's currently Dex 12... planning to go Dex 14 @ 10th, but I might bump Int instead and wait until 15th. Dunno. :D
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That's only really true for Fighters and Champions though.
That would be if Sentinel was not so easily available.
That's only really true for Fighters and Champions though.That would be if Sentinel was not so easily available.
I mean even then you're burning 1-3 class feats for +1 to AC and -5 to speed. That's a fairly mediocre investment. Good for some characters, but not everyone is going to want to bother with that, at least from an optimization perspective.
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I mean even then you're burning 1-3 class feats for +1 to AC and -5 to speed. That's a fairly mediocre investment. Good for some characters, but not everyone is going to want to bother with that, at least from an optimization perspective.That's only really true for Fighters and Champions though.That would be if Sentinel was not so easily available.
Except, again, it's not just that. It's at minimum +1 AC, +1 or +2 reflex and +1 to fort or will. It's also only 1 class feat and either class feats or (the much less valuable) skill feats. You only ever need to expend a second class feat if you want the 10th level feat. Not to mention you only need to spend the skill feats if you want to archetype a second time.
Isn't that really part of the problem though? This notion that pretty much everyone needs a certain amount of Dex?
I would expect most characters to want a little Dex for Reflex saves, anyway.
I don't see that as any more of an issue than wanting a little Con for hp and Fortitude saves or a little Wis for Perception and Will saves.
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I don't see that as any more of an issue than wanting a little Con for hp and Fortitude saves or a little Wis for Perception and Will saves.Isn't that really part of the problem though? This notion that pretty much everyone needs a certain amount of Dex?
I would expect most characters to want a little Dex for Reflex saves, anyway.
If I'm inclined to go low on one of the three saves, it's generally dex too. Though dex skills are a lot better than con skills, wisdom is probably more generally useful since everybody needs perception but stealth and acrobatics are optional.
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I don't see that as any more of an issue than wanting a little Con for hp and Fortitude saves or a little Wis for Perception and Will saves.Isn't that really part of the problem though? This notion that pretty much everyone needs a certain amount of Dex?
I would expect most characters to want a little Dex for Reflex saves, anyway.
I mean all three of them are a little bit of an issue. Wisdom is probably more egregious in general but Dex is up there.
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A bit out of scope for PF2 and would be a quite radical change but I wonder at times if it wouldn't be better if stats didn't exist.
Attack proficiency, HP and saves would merely be determined by your class getting you all the essentials and your skills would be good based on what you choose for them.
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I mean even then you're burning 1-3 class feats for +1 to AC and -5 to speed. That's a fairly mediocre investment. Good for some characters, but not everyone is going to want to bother with that, at least from an optimization perspective.That's only really true for Fighters and Champions though.That would be if Sentinel was not so easily available.
You forget another asset of Sentinel: It gives you access to one of the best (if not the best) skill feat in the game for medium/heavy armor users: Armor Specialist.
So, it's not 1-3 class feats. It's 1 class feat and at most 1 useless skill feat. Armor Specialist is not something you want to let behind.Also, +1 to AC, even at the cost of -5 ft. of speed, is nowhere to be seen at level 2. It still makes Sentinel one of the best feats in the game.
And if you play a MAD build, it's +1 to AC, +2 to non-damaging Reflex saves and 1 attribute boost. It's a level 20 feat at level 2.
A bit out of scope for PF2 and would be a quite radical change but I wonder at times if it wouldn't be better if stats didn't exist.
Attack proficiency, HP and saves would merely be determined by your class getting you all the essentials and your skills would be good based on what you choose for them.
I've thought the same thing actually. Getting your attack stat maxed is such a basic requirement that the game shouldn't have really made it as choice. Ability scores in general just feel like a relic. They are two steps removed from having actual gameplay impacts themselves, and PF2 had shown how little you really need them. Especially now that we have the different proficiency tiers. You could just as easily give classes X proficiency in melee attacks, ranged attacks, or their choice of the two.
It would be a huge departure from the D&D formula and some folks would definitely find it off putting though.
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It still makes Sentinel one of the best feats in the game.
I'm losing track of this discussion.
Does anybody actually disagree that BOTH of the following are true
1) Sentinel is a good archetype for some characters
2) It is NOT a "so good it must be taken" feat for the vast majority of characters
If everybody agrees with that, then what are we actually arguing about? What is the issue? Its good. There are other good things too. Take the good things that fit your character concept (either mechanically or from a role playing perspective)
It still makes Sentinel one of the best feats in the game.
I'm losing track of this discussion.
Does anybody actually disagree that BOTH of the following are true
1) Sentinel is a good archetype for some characters
2) It is NOT a "so good it must be taken" feat for the vast majority of charactersIf everybody agrees with that, then what are we actually arguing about? What is the issue? Its good. There are other good things too. Take the good things that fit your character concept (either mechanically or from a role playing perspective)
I agree with both, but I'm not sure everyone agrees with #2
What Sentinel does is provide a good outlet for "I want to wear heavy armor and feel tanky". It is not really a good option if you don't want to wear heavy armor.
That's pretty much what it's there for.
A bit out of scope for PF2 and would be a quite radical change but I wonder at times if it wouldn't be better if stats didn't exist.
Attack proficiency, HP and saves would merely be determined by your class getting you all the essentials and your skills would be good based on what you choose for them.
Agreed.
My biggest problem is Constitution... because it has the most boring narrative power for an RPG: are you alive or dead? I wish they had rolled into the base class.
I don't have a problem with the "narrative" ability scores: STR, DEX, INT, WIS and CHA say something about your character. I just think they should not be tied to accuracy.
I do think those stats can be connected with game artefacts, like STR should allow you to access weapons/armor options, DEX should allow you to be stealthy and nimble, etc.
And I do think it's good that each class has subsystems that motivate you to pick some of them up (Wizards learning spells faster with higher INT, Sorcerers getting bonuses to social interaction with bloodline-related creatures, Barbarians getting more uses to STR).
But the accuracy part feels so much like a given that it removes a bit of the need for them.
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I do very much like the alternative attributes system in the GMG, where Str and Con are rolled into one stat, Dex is split into two stats (one for finesse/ranged, and the other for reflex/AC), and Will is moved to Cha.
The main issue here is that Armor specialist is currently written as having the Skill tag, despite being completely unrelated to skills in any way.
And it's probably a mistake, due to a template copy/paste from Steel Skin, which has a Survival prerequisite. Another point making me think it's a mistake is Mark having made an errata note for the feat in that thread..
In the current environment, I concede that Armor Specialist is a very strong Skill feat, as it grants access to defensive options for a small price. But it's probably going to change very soon, along with the APG errata.
If it happens, it would be a massive downgrade of Sentinel, which would be good (as right now Sentinel is in the too good to be true territory, a lot because of Armor Specialist being both an incredible skill feat and an easy way out of the archetype).
With this change, you would have to take an extra class feat to get out of Sentinel and you wouldn't be able to take another Dedication before level 8. That would be really good.Does anybody actually disagree that BOTH of the following are true
1) Sentinel is a good archetype for some characters
2) It is NOT a "so good it must be taken" feat for the vast majority of characters
For a lot of builds, it is a feat tax. There's absolutely no way you can be competitive without it on a Mutagenist, Strength Magus, Strength Warpriest or Intimidating Barbarian, for example. So it's above "so good it must be taken", it's "so good you take it".
If I had the choice to replace Sentinel with Boundless Reprisal on my Barbarian, I'd need a moment to think about it :D
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I had originally based my Dwarven Animal Barbarian on Animal Skin + Drakeheart Mutagen. After it was errataed, I changed my plans completely and went Sentinel for Full Plate.
Because the Barbarian is just a big bag of hit points that takes a lot of attacks. So getting +1 to AC and being able to dump DEX so as to bolster WIS was awesome and not to be missed.
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For a lot of builds, it is a feat tax. There's absolutely no way you can be competitive without it on a Mutagenist, Strength Magus, Strength Warpriest or Intimidating Barbarian, for example. So it's above "so good it must be taken", it's "so good you take it".
What makes those classes so different? All of them have medium armor and can take Dex 12 with a Breastplate to be at exactly the same AC as a Dex build with leather armor. Okay, the barbarian is lower off because barbarians are supposed to have lower AC.
I really think you're stuck in a mindset where nothing except totally maxed out defenses is considered even viable. I think that's vastly exaggerated. Maybe it's more a symptom of an arms race style of adventure writing/character optimization.
I don't go nearly that far with my characters and do okay.
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For a lot of builds, it is a feat tax. There's absolutely no way you can be competitive without it on a Mutagenist, Strength Magus, Strength Warpriest or Intimidating Barbarian, for example. So it's above "so good it must be taken", it's "so good you take it".What makes those classes so different? All of them have medium armor and can take Dex 12 with a Breastplate to be at exactly the same AC as a Dex build with leather armor. Okay, the barbarian is lower off because barbarians are supposed to have lower AC.
I really think you're stuck in a mindset where nothing except totally maxed out defenses is considered even viable. I think that's vastly exaggerated. Maybe it's more a symptom of an arms race style of adventure writing/character optimization.
I don't go nearly that far with my characters and do okay.
Paizo's AP design really really really really stresses the need to max out AC if you are frontlining.
For a lot of builds, it is a feat tax. There's absolutely no way you can be competitive without it on a Mutagenist, Strength Magus, Strength Warpriest or Intimidating Barbarian, for example. So it's above "so good it must be taken", it's "so good you take it".What makes those classes so different? All of them have medium armor and can take Dex 12 with a Breastplate to be at exactly the same AC as a Dex build with leather armor. Okay, the barbarian is lower off because barbarians are supposed to have lower AC.
I really think you're stuck in a mindset where nothing except totally maxed out defenses is considered even viable. I think that's vastly exaggerated. Maybe it's more a symptom of an arms race style of adventure writing/character optimization.
I don't go nearly that far with my characters and do okay.
100% agree. Having 5 AC from item/dex? I think is a must because the game math assumes you will. But just getting that +1? I don't really see the need.
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Does anybody actually disagree that BOTH of the following are true
1) Sentinel is a good archetype for some characters
2) It is NOT a "so good it must be taken" feat for the vast majority of characters
Yes, but not myself. I consider it a staple. However Light Armour is good enough for many builds, there are alternatives, and I have other things I want to do with a second level class feat.
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Isn't it obvious that the "problem" is with the few subclasses that desperately need it instead of the problem being the dedication itself?
Besides STR Magus, STR non-armor Inventor and the STR Thaumaturge of the playtest, who else can really say that it needs it to work properly?
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Repeat after me : any frontliner wants to have as high an AC as possible.
"Any frontliner wants to have as high an AC as possible", but can work perfectly fine without Sentinel.
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I've found that not ending your turn next to an enemy with things like Flurry of Blows to be far more effective in mitigating damage than +1 AC.
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I've found that not ending your turn next to an enemy with things like Flurry of Blows to be far more effective in mitigating damage than +1 AC.I usually look at monk archetype too. Hear me out, half elf multitalented to get monk dedication and fob by 10th level to flurry with a d12 and d10 agile in full plate by 11th level.
Monk Dedication only grants 1d6 unarmed attacks. Where is the d12/d10 coming from?
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Monk Dedication only grants 1d6 unarmed attacks. Where is the d12/d10 coming from?I've found that not ending your turn next to an enemy with things like Flurry of Blows to be far more effective in mitigating damage than +1 AC.I usually look at monk archetype too. Hear me out, half elf multitalented to get monk dedication and fob by 10th level to flurry with a d12 and d10 agile in full plate by 11th level.
I think only Animal Barbarian can get a d12 unarmed attack. Their best agile attack is a d8, though.
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Feral mutagen goes up to d12 and d10 agile.
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Feral mutagen goes up to d12 and d10 agile.
Thanks, I missed that one.
Even so, you would be 2 points of accuracy behind a regular martial if you go for that. I think that Bear/Cat Barb can pull that off way better (or even forgo the agile trait and go for Deer).