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I was hesitant switching over from Pathfinder to Pathfinder 2e, but I found that all of the frustration I had with Pathfinder was addressed in 2e, and that required a complete and complex overhaul. After a steep learning curve and some rocky first few sessions of play, I managed to switch my group over to the new system and I would never go back.
I researched Starfinder initially, and I was excited at first, but I decided I wouldn't invest... and it was for one simple reason. The power growth of characters depended upon the armor and weapons they bought.
In Pathfinder 2e, you advance, you get better at attacking, and you are harder to hit.
In Starfinder, you advance, you get more money, you buy better gear and upgrade your armor, and you are harder to hit... but don't lose your armor.
By design, characters like Han Solo and Finn wouldn't work, running around without a good set of the most powerful armor and wielding pathetic little weapons they pick up on the way. The Starfinder system as it is reminds me of the days of AD&D, when you judged a Fighter character by the magic armor and the magic weapon he wielded, and less by his level and skills
Pathfinder 2e works, and it has a lot going for it. In my gut I know Paizo will take Starfinder in the same direction. I am going to wait for that day.
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...aren't PF2 characters heavily dependent on magical runes at high level?
That kinda seems like the same thing.
In Starfinder you need armor even if the math was different, because they're also your spacesuits and radiation protection.
Han Solo and Finn are protected by the plot; even on an airless asteroid in the middle of space, they're fine with a breathing mask because the writers say so.
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1) While AC is certainly useful, high NPC attack bonuses, not always having on level armor, and the lack of the +/-10 system mean it isn't actually that important for some characters. Han solo is probably somewhere between level 5 and 10, and you can just about get away with not wearing armor if you're a ranged focused envoy or operative. You'll want armor, but you can get away without it. You can take quite a few hits on your stamina, and you don't have to worry as much about a boss getting a crit on you as you do in PF2.
2) Han solo and Finn aren't high level starfinder characters. Their adventures never really go to the high levels where having good armor is important to survival. In all the star wars movies they probably max out somewhere level 7-10.
3) I think a lot of this complaint comes from the connotation of 'armor'. People think bulky and obvious, but a lot of starfinder light armor is closer to clothing with force fields or a thin bodysuit worn under clothing. Armor is also ubiquitous in the setting, especially in space where it doubles as a convienent space suit. Check out the various character art for the iconics. Han solo is just a character in light armor and with a pistol. It's just under his clothes.
4) It's pretty simple to fix:
Subtract the armor's item level from it's AC bonus (min 0), then add your character's level to AC.
You'll end up with about the same AC as if you always had armor of your level. At that point you're paying for upgrade slots, resistance to radiation, life support duration and max dex cap. So, maybe some tweaking to ar.or prices and income to accommodate that and you're all set.
5) Doesn't PF2's tight math mean that if you don't have your potency runes at high enough levels you become much less able to handle high level creatures or take hits (which become even more likely to become crits)? It might not be to the same extreme, but starfinder characters tend to accrue plenty of additional options beyond armor and weapons that are plenty useful in a fight without them.
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This is post is really funny to me because it's almost the exact reason I like starfinder more than 2e. Items in 2e are more important, because the math is so much tighter. It may not seem like it, but there are more ways of your weapon being destroyed in 2e than in starfinder (there is sunder in starfinder, and disarm is there, but they are very hard to make work), simply because of some of the monsters in 2e. Some more examples;
If you're worried about getting your weapon taken away, there are a lot of options in starfinder to prevent that. Fusions to call back, mounting them to powered armor (can't be taken off, only sundered), augments to have weapons integrated or mounted inside a limb, summoning them with spells, the works. There are also no rules for sleeping in armor in starfinder, as you'll likely have to sleep in it during some adventures, but in 2e (short of a couple precious feats) you have to sleep without it if it doesn't have the comfort trait.
Getting your weapon destroyed is harder in starfinder too, if you're worried about it. Not only is KAC +8 hard to hit, but there are, again, lots of options to give your weapon extra hardness, hit points, or repairing it. In 2e there are monster abilities that are where your weapon is heavily damaged by something as measly as a reflex save. See things like black pudding or balor. In starfinder you can't sunder armor either.
As far as power goes, yes damage dice are a lot higher in starfinder. But your attack matters so much more in 2e, as does armor, because of the crit/crit fail system. IN starfinder getting hit every attack is rough, but manageable. In 2e getting crit is devastating.
Lastly there are (quite a few) options for your character to never worry about weapons. Classes like solarian, vanguard, nanocyte, and upcoming evolutionist all have auto scaling weapon options. Technomancer can summon weapons or use junkswords. Scaling cantrips are on the way. You can take improved unarmed strike on any character (and/or natural weapon augment) and deal respectable damage. A monk without handwraps in 2e at max level is no threat at all. An experimental weapon (or armor) mechanic can make free weapons or armor for themselves if they ever lose theirs, though it has to be 2 levels lower it's still pretty dang good. Qi adept soldier does good damage with cool riders like blast.
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What I would want to see in starfinder 2e
A hacking or skill system that is more complex than roll a d20 and add something, pass/fail
Classes that are good at the thing their flavor says they're good at. The mechanic isn't any better at.. well.. mechanicing than the operative, or for most campaigns anyone with a couple of skill focuses.
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The mechanic isn't any better at.. well.. mechanicing than the operative, or for most campaigns anyone with a couple of skill focuses.
While that may be true numerically, I do not think that is true overall. There are a multitude of mechanic tricks that allow the mechanic to do things that other classes do not have access to.
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Okay well see you in 7 years.
Starfinder isn't searching for an audience, it already has one. At this point you either buy into it or you don't.
The only other system that even remotely simulates a d20 space fantasy experience is Esper Genesis, which has 3 books to its name and is just a reskinned 5e experience. Holding out for a 2nd ed. that is nowhere on the horizon is only hurting yourself if you want to play this genre.
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I hope it's a good long while before we get a SF 2e given how much I dislike paizo's direction with PF2e.
What I would want to see in starfinder 2e
A hacking or skill system that is more complex than roll a d20 and add something, pass/fail
Didn't tech revolution add that?
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I hope it's a good long while before we get a SF 2e given how much I dislike paizo's direction with PF2e.
Didn't tech revolution add that?What I would want to see in starfinder 2e
A hacking or skill system that is more complex than roll a d20 and add something, pass/fail
Yes, but it's got to be integrated into SFS and APs for it to really stick.
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Needs to be integrated into the classes, feats, and abilities to really stick. A class is how you functionally interact with the game.
It doesn't matter if you have 5 rolls instead of one, if the mechanic and operative functionally go about it the same way but the operative has higher numbers
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I love PF2 and it's very hard for me to go back and trudge through SF because of it, but to be absolutely fair PF2 can be quite gear dependent. It's just spread out over rune upgrades instead of buying new equipment wholesale.
In PF2 the automatic bonus progression rule is a great way of avoiding the loot treadmill problem, and such a system would be even better for SF.
I absolutely loathe the SF equipment system. It's in my top 3 most hated aspects of the game. An endless list of scifi themed weapons and armor that you are forced at gunpoint to churn through amounts to being purely a chore.
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I absolutely loathe the SF equipment system. It's in my top 3 most hated aspects of the game. An endless list of scifi themed weapons and armor that you are forced at gunpoint to churn through amounts to being purely a chore.
Upgrade your guns and armor when a new model comes out, ie, estex suit I upgrade to the II , sheetcaller drizzle upgrade at the sheetcaller storm etc.
Anything after that is utility shopping, which I love. Having a pack rat pull out an oxygen candle in a room full of rescuees running out of air or using a self heating pot to scoop damage immune oozes into is one of the aspects of RPGs I like the best.
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I love the enormous amount of equipment. Like BNW said, only armor and weapon is really necessary, the rest is just there if you want it. Also I probably shouldn't say it, but not getting hamstrung by rarity is really nice too.
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I absolutely loathe the SF equipment system. It's in my top 3 most hated aspects of the game. An endless list of scifi themed weapons and armor that you are forced at gunpoint to churn through amounts to being purely a chore.
That's your preference, but on the other end there are people who played Shadowrun 3e or 5e and loved the variety of items even though it basically was a cosmetic/brand loyalty roleplaying choice. It's pretty solipsistic to think that your desires carry more weight than theirs.
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I don't think there's anything wrong with saying that one dislikes or likes something, Waterslethe is just expressing their opinion, as we all are.
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That's your preference, but on the other end there are people who played Shadowrun 3e or 5e and loved the variety of items even though it basically was a cosmetic/brand loyalty roleplaying choice. It's pretty solipsistic to think that your desires carry more weight than theirs.I absolutely loathe the SF equipment system. It's in my top 3 most hated aspects of the game. An endless list of scifi themed weapons and armor that you are forced at gunpoint to churn through amounts to being purely a chore.
I'm not sure where you are getting that I think my viewpoint is more weighty, but to be clear, I am only espousing my opinions.
I sincerely hope Paizo releases a set of Starfinder rules that brings it more in line with PF2 (hopefully compatible!) but that doesn't mean I think other people are objectively wrong for wishing otherwise.
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I think these kind of design-level opinions would have been really good feedback in 2017 when the game released. Unfortunately it's 2021, and there have been 10+ corebooks and over 40 AP's going in the opposite direction.
Barring a 2nd edition release (and any time people ask about that, Paizo has emphatically said there's nothing planned right now) what are they going to do, not release items with every new book because potential customers who haven't bought it yet may start buying it?
To quote Kosh, "the avalanche has already started, it is too late for the pebbles to vote".
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In my opinion there is quite a good chance that we'll see a Starfinder Unchained type book, actually. With an ABP ruleset, they can keep printing endless lists of weapons and armor for others, while those who would prefer less of a gear treadmill can change up their own games.
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Well there's a lot that a new edition of Starfinder could have to make it more appealing to me personally! I couldn't see a new edition coming out any time soon but if there's a thread it could be a fun exercise.
-A complete overhaul of the Starship minigame rules. Decoupling them from the APL level and instead using standard in game currencies and make it a system where players are mostly individual fighters that both lessen the burden on the GM and don't leave players sitting at the table bored for long periods of time not playing. A player's ship being part of their equipment effectively ala something like Cowboy Bebop or Star Wars versus the current rules. Luke's X-Wing or The Swordfish II vs the Firefly or Eagle 5. Trade crew roles for class specific abilities, etc.
-Rules for starships interacting with non-starships. Weapon damages for shooting at buildings/people/etc. Rules for hovering and tossing down climbing lines or balancing/fighting on top of them, etc. Likely treating other vehicles (like a truck) as starships that can't fly to keep them all mechanically in the same sphere.
-A complete overhaul of the magic rules to make magic actually a powerful and interesting. Much more interaction between technology and magic in rules. I'd be happier with some kind of conflict between them rather than just both doing the same thing but one takes batteries and the other takes mana.
-A drastic reduction in the legacy third edition SRD numbers in a similar manner to more recent editions of d20 pen and paper RPGs.
-Retain the modular class systems of the legacy third SRD editions which I prefer over the dedicated path system of D&D4/PF2. I find it much more fun to make your own character piece by piece than to be completely tied down in one lane. I'll decide what my character is and how it acts as one of that thank you. :)
-Complete overhaul of equipment. Removal of levels and drastic reduction of weapons/armor for players and starships and a drastic increase in more traditional gear/gadgets/magic. With a numbers reduction these changes would be mostly painless but the system should focus on the players being more skilled with the weapons than just using more powerful weapons. Bigger/badder weapons should come with drawbacks or be the realm of story devices. Also throw out the hand waving fix everything rice stuff component too. It throws out a lot of very classic space fantasy problems.
-Drastic overhaul of the setting to make it a bit more interesting and less the random nation states of Golarian but now it's a whole planet. Places to go in the setting could feel more science fiction interesting versus the trope worlds that currently exist or like are in Star Wars. The scope shouldn't center around one solar system but a modest galaxy with habitable planets being rare.
-The drift could be more interesting as a kind of system to explore rather than how things travel around. I don't hate it but I don't think I like it either. Perhaps if there were alternatives for FTL travel along with it and the drift areas made space combat more into a navel affair like a fight from Banner of the Stars or the climactic fight at the end of Star Trek II: The Wrath of Khan.
-The classes would of course need an overhaul from these changes. Certain older classes should still exist by the settings rules. Clerics/wizards/etc shouldn't be relegated to an optional appendix and instead explored fully in scope. What is a wizard like in the age of space? What does a cleric's god need with a starship? New classes are still good too of course but the idea seems to sell on the Pathfinder in Space idea so it'd be a cleaner fit to mix the classics and new together.
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Han Solo and Finn are protected by the plot; even on an airless asteroid in the middle of space, they're fine with a breathing mask because the writers say so.I assumed that both had a level of Star Shaman Mystic.
Hmm
Han doesn't go in for hokey religions. But you can trust invisible environmental force fields.
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I'm willing to wait for Starfinder 2E to come out at the same time as Pathfinder 3E, with a Starfinder unleashed in-between. I'd like to at least see the 2 systems more compatible even if it's just the monsters that are. With Pathfinder 1E now having a SWADE version out I wonder if Paizo will learn anything from that.
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You'll be waiting a while, Eric Mona posted they have plans for several years to come. The system is great as is, I'm glad it's not getting replaced anytime soon
In Starfinder, you advance, you get more money, you buy better gear and upgrade your armor, and you are harder to hit... but don't lose your armor.
By design, characters like Han Solo and Finn wouldn't work, running around without a good set of the most powerful armor and wielding pathetic little weapons they pick up on the way. The Starfinder system as it is reminds me of the days of AD&D, when you judged a Fighter character by the magic armor and the magic weapon he wielded, and less by his level and skills
Enthallo, mebbe you could house-rule that all them weapon/armor advancements that cost money/abp's would instead work off of actual character-levels [levels=plot armor and mad skills?]?
Or if there has to be a cost, prolly something like exp or total damage done in combat [point cost equivalent to upgrading via money/abps]? It could be easier to do in a pbp vs. real life in-table play though.
Mind ya, this suggestion is coming from one who has yet to actually play the SF system; only has skimmed thru some of the rulebooks/playtests. ;)
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I think instead of a weapon/armor advancement system (which always feels very "rough" and "artificial") I would add a weapon upgrade system which is capped by the characters level/ranks/BAB.
This way the armor/weapon also become "the characters iconic armoe/weapon" which could add to the flavor of it.
If you want to keep it simple, you can say that a character has to spent the credit difference between his current weapon and the "new weapon" and spent some days upgrading it.
This way you can still use the WBL and armor/weapon stats of the official books, but simply reflavored it to make it more cool. :)
If you feel creative you could also allow the players to add special effects to their weapons (similar to the ship weapon upgrades).
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I was hesitant switching over from Pathfinder to Pathfinder 2e, but I found that all of the frustration I had with Pathfinder was addressed in 2e, and that required a complete and complex overhaul. After a steep learning curve and some rocky first few sessions of play, I managed to switch my group over to the new system and I would never go back.
I researched Starfinder initially, and I was excited at first, but I decided I wouldn't invest... and it was for one simple reason. The power growth of characters depended upon the armor and weapons they bought.
In Pathfinder 2e, you advance, you get better at attacking, and you are harder to hit.
In Starfinder, you advance, you get more money, you buy better gear and upgrade your armor, and you are harder to hit... but don't lose your armor.
By design, characters like Han Solo and Finn wouldn't work, running around without a good set of the most powerful armor and wielding pathetic little weapons they pick up on the way. The Starfinder system as it is reminds me of the days of AD&D, when you judged a Fighter character by the magic armor and the magic weapon he wielded, and less by his level and skills
Pathfinder 2e works, and it has a lot going for it. In my gut I know Paizo will take Starfinder in the same direction. I am going to wait for that day.
Having played both Starfinder and 2E both are heavily reliant on items for power. Starfinder is weirdly a little less so in my opinion, because while you do need weapons and armor basically all other items are optional IMO.
Now the one edge PF2 has is that there are good Automatic Bonus Progression rules that Starfinder doesn't have. Though IMO if you just use wealth by level rules to "reset" at each level (and make sure players don't abuse consumables) then you don't have much trouble.