| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
id say that the answer is no. since the familiar is 'paid for' with both the level 1 ability and having the bonus spells delay a level.
since you do not get bonus spells you do not 'pay' the 2nd tab. are you expecting to get an ability with only partial payment? it will be like trying to cast a spell that require 1000 gp worth of diamond dust with half the amount. saying 'i only got 500 gp worth' doesn't mean you can skip on the other half.
“ Those with an inherent connection to magic often attract creatures who feel a similar instinctive pull toward magical forces. At 1st level, a sorcerer, bloodrager, or any other character with one of the following bloodlinescan choose to gain a bloodline familiar. The character gains a familiar (as a wizard’s familiar), treating her class level as her wizard level for the purposes of this ability. This familiar has an additional ability listed below based on the master’s bloodline.
This replaces the 1st-level bloodline power granted by the character’s bloodline; in addition, the character gains bonus spells from her bloodline one level later than she normally would. For example, a sorcerer with the aberrant bloodline who takes a bloodline familiar would not gain the acidic ray bloodline power, and she would gain her first bonus spell at 4th level, her second bonus spell at 6th level, and so on.” First let’s keep in mind that the bloodline familiar option isn’t technically an archetype it is an option available to all characters with one of the listed bloodlines and is not necessarily bound by the standard you have to have it to alter it rules. Also if you never gain bloodline spells one level later than “normal” one level later than never is still never and I guess you could consider that condition met. I’m not sure of the legality for Blood Arcanist but the VMC rules is essentially a set of homebrew rules anyway so ask your GM. If he’s fine with it then there is no problem.
never said the word archtype in my post.
all i said is that the familiar supposed to replace\alter 2 things and lacking one, doesn't exempt you from paying for it.
but of course since vmc is an optional rule the gm would have to first allow that before even considering the bloodline familiar.
to be fair, if were talking gm option and not strict rules, i might allow you to take it but then delay the next ability the vmc sorceress give you by one level (i think the 7th level ability? get it at 8th.)
actually looking at the bloodline familiar would show that the familiar get an ability that kinda resemble the lost sorcerer power. which leave the only real payment for that familiar to be the delayed bonus spell.
-you 'pay' with a blood line's ability and delayed bonus spell , but you get a familiar which gain an ability that strikingly resemble the lost bloodline power, so what was given as payment to gain said familiar? = the delayed bonus spell. and now you want to gain said familiar and power without even loosing the delayed bonus spell? kinda one sided there.
well it's up to the gm.
id allow it
and as i mentioned above i'll also allow for the familiar with the ability, if the 7th level vmc is gained at level 8. which is not that terrible usually. just think of it like a cleric's level 8 domain power ;)
another option which is less hard would be to gain the familiar when the 1st sorcerer level power was supposed to be gained (level 3 for vmc) but not gain the familiar's bloodline ability until a level later (at level 4)
again these are all homebrew solutions i myself would use as a gm.
umm no, Diego actually has it pin-pointed.
it talk about getting some bloodline abilities (and counting as a sorcerer for them), but never say you gain the bloodline itself. it's the same as getting a domain 1st level power (some feats let you) you don't actually have the cleric domain ability.
you need to select from which bloodline you get your abilities, but you never gain the sorcerer (or bloodrager) bloodline ability
|
I initally agreed, because the VMC ability doesn't say you gain the bloodline, but it turns out the original class also doesn't say you gain the bloodline.
The VMC ability is named "Bloodline" and is a semantically identical sentence.
A sorcerer has the bloodline class feature. It is in hs class description, under class features.
The VCM sorcerer:
- select a bloodline at 1st level:
Bloodline: At 1st level, she must select a sorcerer bloodline.
She treats her character level as her effective sorcerer level
for all bloodline powers.
- at character levels 3, 7, 11, 15 and 17 he select the following class features:
Bloodline Power: At 3rd level, she gains her bloodline’s 1st-level bloodline power.
Improved Bloodline Power: At 7th level, she gains her bloodline’s 3rd-level bloodline power
Blood Feat: At 11th level, she gains one of her bloodline’s feats or Eschew Materials.
Greater Bloodline Power: At 15th level, she gains her bloodline’s 9th-level bloodline power.
True Bloodline Power: At 19th level, she gains her bloodline’s 15th-level bloodline power.
So no, the VCM sorcerer doesn't receive the bloodline class feature. Table 2-8 of Unchained says very clearly when a VCM class gets the class features, and bloodline isn't one of the features listed.
VMC isn't meant for RAW interpretation. It's more a set of guidelines than actual rules. The GM is expected to make rulings like this when implementing optional rulesets.
As for if it should work that way? I don't see a big problem with it. A familiar shouldn't be any more powerful than a bloodline power, though some bloodline powers aren't great for all builds.
Edit: That's assuming you don't receive the familiar till 3rd level when you would have received the bloodline power.
|
|
VMC isn't meant for RAW interpretation. It's more a set of guidelines than actual rules. The GM is expected to make rulings like this when implementing optional rulesets.
As for if it should work that way? I don't see a big problem with it. A familiar shouldn't be any more powerful than a bloodline power, though some bloodline powers aren't great for all builds.
Edit: That's assuming you don't receive the familiar till 3rd level when you would have received the bloodline power.
The VCM pay a reduced price, which makes the option more potent.
This replaces the 1st-level bloodline power granted by the character’s bloodline; in addition, the character gains bonus spells from her bloodline one level later than she normally would.
Hmm. I did forget about the one level later bit... In that case, I guess I'd change my mind. The familiar option isn't one to one. You could still try asking your GM about it, but it doesn't look as promising.
Maybe look at altering the cost or the benefit. A bloodline familiar gets an extra perk. For VMC, maybe just the familiar without the perk.
|
|
A blood arcanist would definitely qualify, and they don't gain the bonus spells of a bloodline, I fail to see how vmc not granting spells matters here.as far as i can see a blood arcanist would not qualify. do you have an official source saying it does? the bloodline familiar requires bonus spells and first level bloodline power to replace/changeAt 1st level, a sorcerer, bloodrager, or any other character with one of the following bloodlines can choose to gain a bloodline familiar.Bloodline: A blood arcanist selects one bloodline from those available through the sorcerer bloodline class feature.Bloodline familiars only require you to have the bloodline. Blood Arcanist grants you a bloodline, ergo you qualify for it.
At 1st level, a sorcerer, bloodrager, or any other character with one of the following bloodlines can choose to gain a bloodline familiar. The character gains a familiar (as a wizard’s familiar), treating her class level as her wizard level for the purposes of this ability. This familiar has an additional ability listed below based on the master’s bloodline.
1) This replaces the 1st-level bloodline power granted by the character’s bloodline; in addition, 2) the character gains bonus spells from her bloodline one level later than she normally would. For example, a sorcerer with the aberrant bloodline who takes a bloodline familiar would not gain the acidic ray bloodline power, and she would gain her first bonus spell at 4th level, her second bonus spell at 6th level, and so on.
|
|
At 1st level, a sorcerer, bloodrager, or any other character with one of the following bloodlines can choose to gain a bloodline familiar. The character gains a familiar (as a wizard’s familiar), treating her class level as her wizard level for the purposes of this ability. This familiar has an additional ability listed below based on the master’s bloodline.
1) This replaces the 1st-level bloodline power granted by the character’s bloodline; in addition, 2) the character gains bonus spells from her bloodline one level later than she normally would. For example, a sorcerer with the aberrant bloodline who takes a bloodline familiar would not gain the acidic ray bloodline power, and she would gain her first bonus spell at 4th level, her second bonus spell at 6th level, and so on.
At 1st level, a sorcerer, bloodrager, or any other character with one of the following bloodlines can choose to gain a bloodline familiar.Hmmm, that doesn't say a character needs to receive bonus spells from their bloodline to take it.
And how do you think to pay the second cost if you don't have bonus spells?
While Bloodline familiars are "Other Familiar Options" and not an archetype or feat, generally in Pathfinder you can't get an alternate option without paying its full cost. Options that work differently explicitly say so.
For me the crux of the issue is the phrase “ one level later than she NORMALLY would.” For example the Untouchable Rager Bloodrager “normally” never gains spells bonus or otherwise. For this archetype “normal” +1 is still never. I see the delaying of bloodline spells not as a cost and more of a condition applied IF you have that feature considering that the bloodline familiar option states that ANY character with a bloodline may take this option. This line of text seems to be getting glossed over here in my opinion. But that’s also kinda the problem this is my opinion just as those claiming that delayed spells are a cost are stating their opinion. The text gives conflicting statements so any firm declaration of “legality” is always going to be a problem on both sides.
|
Well that does seem to set a precedent then to guide you. The ability states it can be taken by bloodragers and the like, bloodragers never get the bonus spells but are specifically stated as being eligeable. Therefore precedent implies you don't need to pay the bonus spells only meet the first requirement of having a bloodline.
Another reason I don’t consider delayed bloodline spells to be a cost to be paid is because you never have to pay it at all. Any character can take a 1 level dip in sorcerer or blood rager and gain the bloodline familiar with its special perk and never pay this “cost”. Some may say that multiclassing is the cost being paid but this isn’t necessarily the case. What if I’m a witch that really wants a dip in sorcerer just to gain the bloodline arcana? Then you could take the bloodline familiar option to gain full level progression for your familiar and gain the perk and again this “cost” is never paid. Do we then strip this character of their bloodline familiar abilities because they didn’t pay the cost? No that’s not how multiclassing works.
Furthermore “ in addition, the character gains bonus spells from HER bloodline one level later than SHE normally would. “ this specifically calls out what is normal for YOUR character NOT what is normal for your base class (and in the case of Blood Arcanist what is normal for an entirely different class). If your character build SPECIFICALLY does not gain bonus spells then this line does not apply to your character for as we all know Specific trumps General. Applying what is normal for one class/archetype to another without specific text stating to do so does not work. That’s like saying a Human has 4 arms because that’s what is normal for a Kasatha.
|
|
[url=https://www.aonprd.com/ClassDisplay.aspx?ItemName=BloodragerBloodrager [/url
As vhok said, a bloodrager receive his bloodline spells at level 7, 10, 13 and 16.
As I see it, the Bloodline familiar, even if it is under a different header, works as an archetype. It is an opinion, as it was put under a different header, but the format of the ability is very similar to that of an archetype, with the difference that it can be applied to any class that receives a bloodline (but not only some of a bloodline powers).
YMMV
“ At 1st level, a sorcerer, bloodrager, or any other character with one of the following bloodlines can choose to gain a bloodline familiar.” The author of this ability went out of his way to be very inclusive with this text. It seems illogical to me that he would claw back this inclusivity a few sentences later. It seems far more logical and in keeping with the spirit of inclusivity to interpret the bloodline spell progression delay as applying ONLY if you have this class feature. Interpreted this way all the other text of the ability works. It’s only when you try to apply archetype stacking rules to this ability that problems occur. Excluding builds that do not have bloodline spells goes against the spirit of the above rules text and in fact requires you to completely ignore it anytime a character build that has a bloodline but not bloodline spells comes up. Applying archetype stacking rules text to an ability that is NOT an archetype is debatable AT BEST. At worst it’s just plain wrong and it certainly isn’t RAW.
|
|
LOL. Very questionable logic.
The author included classes that have bloodlines. As said already several times, a VMS sorcerer doesn't have the bloodline feature, he has pieces of the feature.
The bloodline feature includes spells, you are arguing that the spells aren't part of the feature.
So, in your vision, what is included in the bloodline feature?
The skills? The feats? The powers?
Nothing of the above and only the name?
I am not referring specifically to VMS sorcerer which may or may not actually grant a bloodline. I’m referring more generally to any class or archetype that does definitely grant a bloodline yet not grant bloodline spells. A very good example I already mentioned was the Untouchable Rager Bloodrager archetype which does not gain spells bloodline or otherwise. Or are you saying that the Untouchable Rager loses its bloodline when it trades out spellcasting?
As for what abilities are gained through the bloodline class feature you gain whatever features are listed in the class or archetype description. If Paizo or a third party publisher were to develop a class/archetype that specifically states that you gain a bloodline but the only ability it granted was a 1st level bloodline power then that’s what you get. Lacking features granted to other classes/archetypes would not make such a class any less a bloodline granting class/archetype than a base sorcerer or bloodrager. If you want to claim that only classes/archetypes that match what you think a bloodline granting class should have are classes that grant bloodlines then go ahead. Again though this is not RAW.
|
|
I am not referring specifically to VMS sorcerer which may or may not actually grant a bloodline. I’m referring more generally to any class or archetype that does definitely grant a bloodline yet not grant bloodline spells. A very good example I already mentioned was the Untouchable Rager Bloodrager archetype which does not gain spells bloodline or otherwise. Or are you saying that the Untouchable Rager loses its bloodline when it trades out spellcasting?
1) If you are exclusively speaking of something different from the VMS sorcerer, say clearly so when you start speaking of it. Don't put in as a casual example.
2) The Bloodrager has the bloodline class feature.
Untouchable Rager doesn't remove it, he modifies it. As the Bloodline familiars are "Other Familiar Options", it isn't a true archetype, so what matters is having the feature, even modified.
But the Untouchable Rager pays the second cost:
At 7th, 10th, 13th, and 16th levels (when other bloodragers would gain bloodline spells), an untouchable rager’s spell resistance from raging resistance is increased by 1.
and
the character gains bonus spells from her bloodline one level later than she normally would.
To me, it seems pretty clear that the Untouchable Rager gets the spells and then swaps them away from something different, while the Bloodline familiars change when you get the spells. The end result is that the combo gives the increases in spells resistance 1 level later.
You say “ To me, it seems pretty clear that the Untouchable Rager gets the spells and then swaps them away from something different, while the Bloodline familiars change when you get the spells. The end result is that the combo gives the increases in spells resistance 1 level later.” To me saying that an archetype that that completely replaces a class feature with something entirely different gains the ability first and THEN swaps it out is far from “clear” and VERY convenient for the sake of bolstering your argument. I don’t see any RAW supporting this stance.
|
|
You say “ To me, it seems pretty clear that the Untouchable Rager gets the spells and then swaps them away from something different, while the Bloodline familiars change when you get the spells. The end result is that the combo gives the increases in spells resistance 1 level later.” To me saying that an archetype that that completely replaces a class feature with something entirely different gains the ability first and THEN swaps it out is far from “clear” and VERY convenient for the sake of bolstering your argument. I don’t see any RAW supporting this stance.
At 7th, 10th, 13th, and 16th levels (when other bloodragers would gain bloodline spells),
In this situation, when other bloodragers will get their bloodline spells?
At 8th, 11th, 14th, and 17th levels.
Yes this progression would apply to OTHER bloodragers who do gain bloodline spells. How does this apply to the Untouchable Rager that does not ever gain spells. You still haven’t shown that this archetype first gains the bloodline spells feature and THEN loses it you’ve only shown the level progression for when the Untouchable Rager progresses their SR coincides with the bloodline spell progression which seems appropriate considering that is one of the features replaced by the archetype. Where is the RAW supporting your contention?
|
|
I suppose it raises the question of when you apply archetypes. To use the untouchable blood rager . ..
Lvl 1: Untouchable Blood rager
Lvl 1: Bloodline familiar
vs
Lvl 1: Bloodline familiar
Lvl 1: Untouchable Bloodrager
vs
Lvl 1: Untouchable Bloodrager + Bloodline familiar.
That is are you applying untouchable first (no spells to delay), bloodline familiar first (spells to delay) or both simultaneously same class feature replaced/modified by both.
Seems pedantic yes but the point is the order you apply the arhcetypes affect what is there to modify and runs into the issue of whether its the same archetype modifying the same feature. For example I can be a blood arcanist or an eldritch font arcanist but I can't be a eldritch font blood arcanist because they replace magical supremacy. Untouchable blood rager replaces bloodline spells while bloodline familiar modifies them. So if the untouchable blood rager is able to take untouchable and bloodline familiar or not is also a question of whether it functions as a bloodrager for the quote saying blooragers can take bloodline familiars or is it an exception because of its specific rules?
There's also the way the ability is worded . ..
This replaces the 1st-level bloodline power granted by the character’s bloodline; in addition, the character gains bonus spells from her bloodline one level later than she normally would. For example, a sorcerer with the aberrant bloodline who takes a bloodline familiar would not gain the acidic ray bloodline power, and she would gain her first bonus spell at 4th level, her second bonus spell at 6th level, and so on.
Its saying if you take this you gain spells a level later than you normally would. If you would normally gain them at 3rd level you gain them at 4th if you would not gain them at all then you don't gain them a level later. Its not a cost its an effect same as power attack requires BAB + 1 and 13 + strength then trades -1 attack for + 2 damage. It dosesn't matter if your adding +2 (1 BAB + 13 str) or +5 (1 BAB + 18 str) or 9 (8 BAB + 13 str). You have a pre-requisite and then a cost of the ability.
To refer to the arcanist why would taking this even be an issue for a blood arcanist? Blood Arcanist + bloodline familiar = trade 1st level power for familiar, Blood Arcanist + Exploit = trade an exploit for a familiar. Either way they trade something (bloodline power/exploit) for a familiar.
Well that does seem to set a precedent then to guide you. The ability states it can be taken by bloodragers and the like, bloodragers never get the bonus spells but are specifically stated as being eligeable. Therefore precedent implies you don't need to pay the bonus spells only meet the first requirement of having a bloodline.Bonus Spells: ray of enfeeblement (7th), bull's strength (10th), rage (13th), stoneskin (16th)
Bonus Spells: enlarge person (7th), see invisibility (10th), displacement (13th), black tentacles (16th)
Bonus Spells: hydraulic push (7th), slipstream (10th), hydraulic torrent (13th), control water (16th)
what are you talking about???? bloodragers do get bonus spells. what game are you playing? lol
I was referring specifically to Trokar's untouchable bloodrager example sorry I wasn't clear there.
An excerpt from the rules for archetypes “ A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.” Ergo the Untouchable Rager never counts as having the bloodline spells class feature at all no matter what order the archetype features are applied.
well with that logic since he never got his bloodline spells he can't pay up for the bloodline familiar.
id say the bloodline familiar talk about a general bloodrager or sorcerer which does get his bloodline spells and thus CAN get them a level later and pay for his bloodline familiar. A bloodrager archtype which never get the spells can't pey for the familiar and thus CAN'T get it.
when the familiar talk about bloodrageres and sorcerer's getting the familiar it talk about the general kind ,not a variant which doesn't have all the same abilities. you can't take a far-off specific example which doesn't have the general class abilities and ask how would he work? he simply won't. the same way a sorcerer or bloodrager who doesn't get the 1st bloodline ability can't take bloodline familiar. (say tattooed sorcerer who trade away his 1st bloodline power. though that one would double not be able to get bloodline familiar as he get a tattoo familiar).
you can't go into a shop which sell apples for a buck and a half and say i had a buck and a half but i used the half to buy milk so i'll only pay a buck to get the apple.
(the delayed spell progression is basically a late payment but it's STILL a payment. not paying at all will get you nothing. or a lawsuit)
“ At 1st level, a sorcerer, bloodrager, or ANY OTHER CHARACTER with one of the following bloodlines can choose to gain a bloodline familiar.” This absolutely does not restrict this option to base sorcerers or bloodragers. Bloodline familiar is NOT an archetype and is therefore not bound by archetype “you have to have it to modify it” restrictions. I’m not going to repeat my points further. Please read all my previous posts on this thread.
well im sorry. did you expect the one writing the rules to cover EVERY exception?
do you really want me to look up every time the rules say 'every time' or something like that only to find out there is an exception? really?! don't you know pathfinder by now?
so since it also say 'sorcerer' are you saying a sorcerer who gave up his 1st bloodline power can still take a bloodline familiar? (hey it's not an archtype? so who care if he can't give up an ability he doesn't have anymore?) since it say any other character with bloodline? (and sorcerer) - don't be daft
bloodline familiar is maent for general sorcerers and bloodragers who still have the abilities to give up to gain the familiar. if they have no ability to give up for it they can't take the familiar. doesn't matter if the familiar is an arcthype or not (and you will notice i never said it was an archtype in any of my posts). it's a trade off, and you can not make a trade without giving the part you are asked for. it's.. you know.. not fair.. like saying i don't care the magic sword cost 2315 gp to buy. im paying only 10 gp. which gm will let you run that?
so no. a bloodrager or sorcerer or any other kind of class that has a bloodline BUT doesn't have the 1st bloodline ability for some reason or the bonus spells can not get a bloodline familiar. even though that ability say 'any other'. since it ALSO say what you need to give up for it. so im not saying you don't get to have the familiar because your not a bloodrager , im saying you don't get the familiar because your not making the trade. as in you need to give to get.
same for vmc sorcerer for that matter
-which is what my 1st post waaay up there was saying. by strict raw - since you do not have your side of the trade. you can't make it. i don't care WHY you do not have it.
yes, you need a blood line ability, yes so far you read right, BUT YOU ALSO NEED TO GIVE UP AN ABILITY AND DELAY YOUR SPELLS. can you see a normal sorcerer coming along and saying i want the familiar but i don't want to delay my spells? you'd chuck the book right at that player won't you? same here, 'i want the familiar but i play something that doesn't have what it asks for'..well then you can't have it! try playing the normal sorcerer or any of the other kind that do if you really want it.
one last thing. the fact it doesn't say 'if you have bonus spells they get delayed by one level' but it straight up say your 'bonus spells? you delay them by one level' mean the whole concept of bloodline familiar was written for these classes that have bonus spells. so looking for a specific archtype that doesn't get the bonus spells and saying 'here is the proof that you can be a bloodrager with a bloodline and not have bonus spells' just show that you picked the one thing the writer didn't talk about and should there for be treated as an exception and not a the example for these rules.
As I have stated I don’t see delayed bloodline spells as a cost to ALL characters with bloodlines I see it as a condition only for those that DO have the bonus spells because it states you gain them one level later than you NORMALLY would for YOUR character not all characters with your base class. I would also like to point out that the text pertaining to delayed bloodline spells in this ability never specifically states that it alters the bloodline bonus spells class feature as is the norm for all abilities that alter or replace a class feature. It’s also quite clear that we are not going to see eye to eye on this issue. I have made my case as I see it. It’s up to each GM to decide how they want to rule on this issue as there isn’t enough RAW elements to definitively rule one way or the other in all cases.
I will point out one more thing. As written a character with levels in both sorcerer and bloodrager must share the same bloodline. As written such a character who had a bloodline familiar and bloodline bonus spells in both classes would have to apply the delayed bonus spells progression to BOTH classes. As a “cost” to be paid this character is getting double charged. Is that fair? Interpreted as a condition that applies to any character with bloodline bonus spells this is just a fact for your character neither more nor less fair than characters who take bloodline familiars that do not gain bonus bloodline spells.
I would certainly be willing to listen to any convincing argument supported by RAW rules elements. To my mind none have yet been put forth.
|
|
“ At 1st level, a sorcerer, bloodrager, or ANY OTHER CHARACTER with one of the following bloodlines can choose to gain a bloodline familiar.” This absolutely does not restrict this option to base sorcerers or bloodragers. Bloodline familiar is NOT an archetype and is therefore not bound by archetype “you have to have it to modify it” restrictions. I’m not going to repeat my points further. Please read all my previous posts on this thread.
You know that Pathfinder rules aren't legalese, right?
So read what you cited.The sorcerer needs to have "one of the following bloodlines", the bloodrager needs "one of the following bloodlines" and all other classes need to have "one of the following bloodlines".
Then there is the handy piece yourself cited: "A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.”
Guess what?
It means that the Untouchable Rager doesn't have the bloodline for prerequisites. I was too lenient in my post. No prerequisite no ability.
I know you will argue that the is not what the rule means, but it is exactly how it parses in English. Having one of the bloodlines cited is a requirement.
Do you have the Medusa bloodline? You don't have the requisite.
Do you have the Accursed bloodline? You don't have the requisite.
You have traded away your bloodline? You don't have the requisite.
You have changed your bloodline so that it can't fulfill requisites? You don't have the requisite.
Thanks for the help in clarifying that.
You know that Pathfinder rules aren't legalese, right?
So read what you cited.
The sorcerer needs to have "one of the following bloodlines", the bloodrager needs "one of the following bloodlines" and all other classes need to have "one of the following bloodlines".Then there is the handy piece yourself cited: "A character who takes an alternate class feature does not count as having the class feature that was replaced when meeting any requirements or prerequisites.”
Guess what?
It means that the Untouchable Rager doesn't have the bloodline for prerequisites. I was too lenient in my post. No prerequisite no ability.
You do realize that Untouchable Ranger does actually still have a bloodline and they also aren't forced into a specific bloodline either, right? They just don’t have spells, and because they have no spells they also loose their bloodline spells.