You left Agent of the Grave out of this one, but included it in the Druid one.
See, Mystic Thrurge is how you become the ultimate necromancer.
JuJu Oracle 4/Gravewalker Witch 3/Mystic Theurge 2/Agent of the grave 5/Mystic Theurge 6... or something like that. Ryze Kuja has it posted several times with a breakdown of each step involved. Hundreds and hundreds of Undead HD... at you service.
My biggest problem about Mystic Theurge is that it would take 21 levels in order to combine all your 4th level spells mixing two 4/9 casting classes... drats, I know. But I actually would appreciate it if I could have gotten away with combining ALL my spell slots. Lol.
But it makes an interesting progression for the Adept NPC class... don't they cap at 5th level spells? Advance an Adept into an arcane class, then into MT? Hilarious.
Also, there is also another minimal cheese shortcut for entry - the wizard arcane discovery Faith Magic gets you in with Wiz 7 Divine Class 1...So while this one CAN work I am not a fan of it because you will be level 9 when you take your first MT level, it requires you to be a wizard, which isn't the BEST arcane class for this, and on your divine side youll be using 1sst level spells at like CL1 when you should be throwing out 5th level spells...which is a VERY significant difference.
There is another even worse problem with this early entry method... You can't use a prestige class to progress the spell casting of a class that was not used to qualify for it. The Faith Magic trick can give you the ability to cast 2nd level divine spells as a wizard (or Arcanist)... it would technically work to qualify you for Mystic Theurge, but you'd only get Wizard spell progression out of it making it a pointless cheese... And since you can get into MT normally at 6th with Wizard 3/Cleric 3, it's a doubly poor "early entry" trick...
Also... none of the early entry methods you listed actually work. There is a huge difference between being able to cast 2nd level spells and being able to cast a 1st level spell treated as a 2nd level spell. The early entry tricks you listed all fall under the latter. You still only possess the ability to cast 1st level spells with those tricks, the tricks just enhance the spell as if it were a 2nd level spell increasing the save DC, identify DC, and dispel DC by 1 spell level.
Also, the FAQ you linked to claim they do work was refering more to the fact that not all casters get multiple spells at each level when they first gain access to a new spell level. A sorcerer only knows 1 2nd level spell when they first learn to cast 2nd level spells. A wizard can choose to only add 1 2nd level spell to their spell book when they reach level 3 and pick up another 1st level spell with their other new spell choice. Oddly enough, a Cross-Blooded Sorcerer knows 0 2nd level spells when they first gain the ability to cast 2nd level spells. The FAQ simply clarified that you don't have to know how to cast more than 1 of a spell at any given level to count as having the ability to cast that level, all that matters is that your class level says you can cast that level.
Good to have some free Mystic Theurge guide stuff out there for PF1e, IluzryMage. ;)
Just stopped in to say, good job. I've been meaning to get around to a guide to the Mystic Theurge for while. Its been one of my favorite concepts since 2e AD&D with the multiclass options for Demi-humans.
I am currently going through the classes that get access to 9th level casting, looking at their archetypes and class features, and ranking them based on how useful they would make for their respective half of the Mystic Theurge. Its been something that's been on my shelf for a while. I've only given it a brief rundown years ago. There is a lot more material this time around and I think I'll be thorough (and document my attempt) this time.
I'm going to ignore most early entry shenanigans, though I will make note of certain points of where it might be used. I feel early entry into Mystic Theurge (ie, first level taken in it BEFORE 7th level) kind of bypasses what I see as a right of passage and natural filter to those not suited to handle its particular style of play.
I'll share my work when I am finished. I've already got the Arcanist pretty much lined out. Cleric is next and... meh, let's just say the Cleric bores me.
Also, there is also another minimal cheese shortcut for entry - the wizard arcane discovery Faith Magic gets you in with Wiz 7 Divine Class 1...So while this one CAN work I am not a fan of it because you will be level 9 when you take your first MT level, it requires you to be a wizard, which isn't the BEST arcane class for this, and on your divine side youll be using 1sst level spells at like CL1 when you should be throwing out 5th level spells...which is a VERY significant difference.
Also... none of the early entry methods you listed actually work. There is a huge difference between being able to cast 2nd level spells and being able to cast a 1st level spell treated as a 2nd level spell. The early entry tricks you listed all fall under the latter. You still only possess the ability to cast 1st level spells with those tricks, the tricks just enhance the spell as if it were a 2nd level spell increasing the save DC, identify DC, and dispel DC by 1 spell level.
I think so long as they are counted as a second level spell for all purposes, it still flies. The Djezet and wayang combination are both rated 6/5, not necessarily because they are the best, but they are a little hand wavy on how much they count BUT the equipment trick feat clearly states that it is treated as being 1 spell level higher for all purposes, which would include pre-reqs.
Frankly, besides this very specific early entry thing, I...don't see this as a problem. Even slightly. Most other prestige classes keep you bottlenecked at skillranks, which you can't really cheese, or other pre-reqs so I don't really see it as a problem balance wise
The problem with those methods is it they don't give you the ability to cast a higher level spell. Equipment Trick, either option, requires the use of an item as a material to get the benefit. In otherwords, you are still casting a 1st level spell, it is the effect of that item used as an extra component in the spellcasting that enhances it. This is a problem because even if casting the spell like that were to satisfy the prerequisite, it would only do so while you possess the components. Should you for any reason lose or run out of those components, (or simply not prepare that spell for the day if prepared spellcaster) then you would nolonger meet the prerequisite for the prestige class and lose access to all abilities from it, including spellcasting progression. And since you can't use a prestige class to qualify for itself, you have to be able to fulfill the prerequisites at all times. The Djezet method falls into the same issue... you must possess and use the material for your spell to be considered 2nd level, and if you don't have it or never use it then how are you able to cast 2nd level spells?
As for Wayang Spellhunter + Heighten spell... that is a whole other can of worms on its own. And it actually falls apart by the wording of Heighten spell. If you heighten a 1st level spell to 2nd and then reduce it back to 1st by any means, you've actually just negated the heighten spell metamagic in its entirety.
There is also this lovely little gem hidden in the FAQ that pretty well squashes ALL of these early entry tricks that utilize 1st level spell slots.
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?
The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.
For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.
Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.
The question may have been asking specifically in regards to concentration DCs and spell recall, but the answer applies to more than just those. Two parts of that answer say no to these early entry tricks...
part 1: "The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it." so, does it use a 1st level spell? yes, it counts as a 1st level spell. It might affect things as a 2nd level spell, but it still only counts as casting a 1st level spell.part 2: "In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster." The FAQ established a general rule. It is most certainly more advantageous for you if that spell counts as a higher level for your prerequisites... but the general rule says to count it as what is more disadvantageous, so it doesn't count as a higher level spell for your prerequisites.
"If you don't have your pre-reqs at all times forever you lose all of your prestige class features."
It is more of a logical argument than anything. You don't lose your class features unless the prestige class says you do. What you do is lose ACCESS to those features until you qualify again. Its like taking Power Attack and then having your strength drained to below 13. You still have it, you just can't use it. You can wear magic items to boost your strength high enough to qualify for the feat (say if you have 11 str +2 from a belt) initially or to make up the difference until you can heal the reduced value.
Things like this is why I turned up my nose to early entry shenanigans back when the Paizo team allowed for caster levels to qualify you for prestige classes that required specific spells levels. It creates too many vacuous 'what-ifs'' and 'maybes' that threaten to undermine the general rules the game relies on.
My advice, is don't try to enter into Mystic Theurge unless you ACTUALLY have 2nd level spell SLOTS (even if it is just one). Faking it isn't going to help you in the end.
Ya know what, I have no added an extra section at the beginning for people who do not want to partake in or agree with early entry options.
I noticed that but didn't feel it necessary to comment about it. Don't worry too much about it. I'll try to be a good resource in helping you flesh out the guide if you want to delve into non-early entry options. That is, after all, my main focus and fascination with the Mystic Theurge prestige class.
I've gotten through the Cleric archetypes and most of the versatile channeling options. Still pounding away at it. Still have to address the Domains. Gaah, I really, REALLY, don't like clerics. Personal preference but I am not about to cut them out of the project.
Also I'd be curious to see where it says you lose your prestige class features AFTER you've taken a level if you lose the pre-reqs before you took a level.
Im not saying you are wrong but I can't seem to find anything in paizo that specifically says, "If you don't have your pre-reqs at all times forever you lose all of your prestige class features."
Like if someone is evil takes an evil prc, and then becomes good, where does it say that they automatically lose their features? What about if again, an agent of the grave lets say gets a new spellbook, and today they do not have animate undead on their list? Do they suddenly lose all of their features?
I just want to see where you found that.
In the case of features that are advanced by the prestige class... there is an FAQ ruling that states that a prestige class cannot be used to qualify for itself.
So if you used an early entry trick to qualify for 2nd level spellcasting and took a few levels into the prestige class advancing your spellcasting to actually cast 2nd level spells... if you were to somehow lose access whatever granted you that early entry then you would no longer qualify for the prestige class because you can't use the spellcasting progression advancements from the prestige class to meet the qualifications of that same prestige class.
If you have to have access to it in order to qualify for it, then you don't qualify for it because you have to first qualify for it before you can have access to it... A permits B but B does not permit A.
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Qualifying based on alignment is different than qualifying via mechanical means like spellcasting. Alignments can change. Unless retraining, other mechanical methods do not change. Prestige classes or other effects that depend on alignment generally stipulate what happens if you no longer meet those requirements. See any entry that has "Ex-[insert class here]". If such an entry lacks that information, it should not be assumed alignment changing impacts it at all.
Agent of the Grave lacks this particular entry. Others have them. Try to use multiple examples to arrive to a conclusion, not a specific example that suits your intended conclusion. Exceptions, and mistakes, can exist.
You did not hear my main point. I did not say Alignment was NOT a mechanic. I said is was a mechanic that CHANGES, while others are not. When alignment MATTERS, it is addressed directly. Try to reframe the problem with that starting point and not get distracted by what you want to be true, but what that bit of information points to in isolation. Also, try not compare it to other mechanics that don't function in the exact same way.
If I am coming off as dismissive, that is not my intent. Just trying to help you along so that you can see how my opinion (and that of others) are logical and consistent. Early entry shenanigans are, by their natures, something that takes advantage of obscurities in the rules and must be critiqued with a very critical eye.
Whichever way you want to go on it, thats fine. I'm not telling you how to play at your table. I'm just here to help with the guide. :)
First off, Ability Damage has no impact on your actual ability score. Ability Damage applies a penalty to skills and statistics affected by that ability. Because Ability Damage doesn't actually reduce your score Ability Damage won't affect spell casting. Ability Drain on the otherhand does. Rules Link
I already linked you to the relevant FAQ that says if you lose the prerequisites you lose access to the abilities of the prestige class. You dismissed it as only pertaining to losing prerequisites by retraining. It doesn't matter how you lose the prerequisites, the result is the same.
Early entry tricks rely on ambiguities within the established rules, exploiting poor word choice or unclear rulings to accomplish an objective that is not supported by the established rules. Direct rules & FAQ quotes simply don't exist for them, but there are plenty of indirect rules & FAQ quotes that work against them. When a direct rule doesn't exist it doesn't mean that something is permitted by merit of there is no rule against it, it means that you have to refer to the most relevant related rules or FAQs. In this case the Retraining FAQ and the Spell Recall FAQ are some of the most relevant related FAQs.
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I'm not getting distracted by "what I want to be true" I'm following your point to the logical conclusion.
This is where I disagree (you haven't reached the end from my standpoint) but do not really intend to keep pushing the matter. I will take your suggestion and refrain from any further discussion on the matter.
Anyway, I (finally) got through Clerics and all their damned (sub)domains. If anyone wants to preview the file (rough excel sheet), it can be viewed here. Contains info on Arcanists and Clerics so far.
I have only had a chance to look at the guide briefly so far, but . . .
There is another even worse problem with this early entry method... You can't use a prestige class to progress the spell casting of a class that was not used to qualify for it. {. . .}
Also, there is also another minimal cheese shortcut for entry - the wizard arcane discovery Faith Magic gets you in with Wiz 7 Divine Class 1...So while this one CAN work I am not a fan of it because you will be level 9 when you take your first MT level, it requires you to be a wizard, which isn't the BEST arcane class for this, and on your divine side youll be using 1sst level spells at like CL1 when you should be throwing out 5th level spells...which is a VERY significant difference.
This doesn't do that. Wizard 7 with Faith Magic and then 1 level of divine casting class is perfectly legitimate as an entry into Mystic Theurge.
Related to this, in the guide, it says "Use 0-9 Casters Only". Normally I am in complete agreement and don't understand why anyone would recommend otherwise. HOWEVER, I can think of one exception that I think you might agree with: Wizard 7 with Faith Magic + Living Grimoire Inquisitor 1 into Mystic Theurge. Living Grimoire Inquisitor is Intelligence-based (and prepared) instead of Wisdom-based (and spontaneous), so you don't have to get MAD. So just like you say (and I say elsewhere) you aren't getting as much for progressing a 6/9 spellcasting class as for progressing a 9/9 spellcasting class, but in this particular case, you aren't paying much either (arguably not even worth spending a trait on Magical Knack to offset just 1 rank of caster level delay), so it evens out.
Of course, how much you're paying depends upon whether your Arcane School actually has a good 8th level Arcane School Power, and whether your Arcane School powers scale with level -- for instance, Evocation(Admixturer)(*) has an awesome active 1st level power that doesn't depend upon your Wizard level, an okay passive 1st level power that does scale with your Wizard level (at a moderate pace), and an okay active 8th level power (if you decide to wait 1 more level before doing this) whose rounds per day scale with your Wizard level (again at a moderate pace), so you might decide that it is worth trading out the modest scaling of Wizard features for some divine spellcasting utility. In contrast, Necromancy(default version) has 2 active 1st level abilities, both of which scale with level (and of which Power Over Undead rapidly gets outclassed if scaling stops), and an 8th level active ability that scales in both rounds per day and range, so you wouldn't want to do this. As another pair of examples, Divination (Foresight)(*) is more similar to Evocation(Admixturer) in this regard, while Divination(default version) is more like Necromancy (default version).
(*)Evocation(Admixturer) and Divination(Foresight) are also both good candidates for entry into Arcane Trickster, if you want to do that some time.
By the way, it might be worth also having a guide section for Not-Mystic-Theurges, in the event that you (or usually more to the point your GM) are less than comfortable with early entry methods. Here is a post I made on the subject (before I became aware of the newer potential early entry methods for Mystic Theurge); this one also tries to make you a Bard at the same time, so if you can get rid of that requirement, it becomes easier. (And yes, it has Maestro Sorcerer listed early in it -- I did say worst first, and didn't know of the newest early entry tricks to potentially rescue SLA-FAQ-Nerfed Mystic Theurge.)
{. . .} Anyway, I (finally) got through Clerics and all their damned (sub)domains. If anyone wants to preview the file (rough excel sheet), it can be viewed here. Contains info on Arcanists and Clerics so far.
Good work so far. But if you think Clerics and their archetypes and Domains are a chore, get ready for Sorcerer Bloodlines and their Wildblooded Bloodlines (as well as several archetypes).
Good work so far. But if you think Clerics and their archetypes and Domains are a chore, get ready for Sorcerer Bloodlines and their Wildblooded Bloodlines (as well as several archetypes).
Eh, bring it on. I've got through Druids and their 74-ish archetypes and two dozen-ish domains. It was far more enjoyable than the cleric. Though, I fully admit that is simply due to my own personal bias. I just don't enjoy clerics mechanically. I enjoyed the Arcanist compilation. I will likewise enjoy the Sorcerer, Oracle, Wizard, Witch and Shaman. Just got to squeeze out time during the work week.
Added a 'Forward' to my file, just to clear up/explain a few things about what my intentions/goals were.
I too doubt Sorcerer will give you any major issued... most bloodline abilities are just plain bad if you don't take a significant number of levels in sorcerer... and most of the best non-scaling bloodline powers aren't even unlocked at early levels... it's mostly the Bloodline Arcanas that are the real ticket items for a Mystic Theurge, which ultimately makes Crossblooded one of the best choice Archetypes for a Mystic Theurge to get a second Arcana. With the vast majority of Bloodlines, the 1st level power is best dropped for Bloodline Familiar or Blood Havoc since you simply won't get any meaningful benefit out of most of them. Similarly a lot of 3rd level powers are best traded for Blood Intensity due to not gaining their scaling benefits.
I too doubt Sorcerer will give you any major issued... most bloodline abilities are just plain bad if you don't take a significant number of levels in sorcerer... and most of the best non-scaling bloodline powers aren't even unlocked at early levels... it's mostly the Bloodline Arcanas that are the real ticket items for a Mystic Theurge, which ultimately makes Crossblooded one of the best choice Archetypes for a Mystic Theurge to get a second Arcana. With the vast majority of Bloodlines, the 1st level power is best dropped for Bloodline Familiar or Blood Havoc since you simply won't get any meaningful benefit out of most of them. Similarly a lot of 3rd level powers are best traded for Blood Intensity due to not gaining their scaling benefits.
You are quite correct on a number of those points. For a Mystic Theurge, Sorcerer levels are mainly to get access to bloodline arcanas (and sheer spell slots). If you want bloodline powers that scale, or an animal companion, it is best to use feats to acquire Eldritch Heritage and/or Animal Ally. Familiar have more wiggle room as they arent as heavily level dependent.
All this is stuff I know right off going into the write up. It is just a matter of putting it all down on paper and showing my work. That is the hard part.
Related to this, in the guide, it says "Use 0-9 Casters Only". Normally I am in complete agreement and don't understand why anyone would recommend otherwise. HOWEVER, I can think of one exception that I think you might agree with: Wizard 7 with Faith Magic + Living Grimoire Inquisitor 1 into Mystic Theurge. Living Grimoire Inquisitor is Intelligence-based (and prepared) instead of Wisdom-based (and spontaneous), so you don't have to get MAD. So just like you say (and I say elsewhere) you aren't getting as much for progressing a 6/9 spellcasting class as for progressing a 9/9 spellcasting class, but in this particular case, you aren't paying much either (arguably not even worth spending a trait on Magical Knack to offset just 1 rank of caster level delay), so it evens out.So, even though this is...okay and the inquistor spell list is...good, I still would not suggest anyone take the Faith Magic Wizard Route because your caster levels are tracked seperately. Thus your inquistor side is casting first level spells at CL1 vs your wizard side (And likely your team) that are all throwing around 4th level spells at CL7-8.
Moreoever, on your inquistor side, you are only going to be getting up to 4th level spells, for ALL 10 levels. In that case, I'd say just make sure your Wisdom isnt abysmal, spend some cash to get a better headband or some boosts and take the level in cleric, focusing on buffs and no save spells.
That's why I said you aren't getting much, but you aren't paying much, so it works out. Doing it with Cleric gets you more, but costs more, because you have to invest more in Wisdom. (Of course, I am a bit biased by the thought that you SHOULDN'T be depending upon a headband to have certain class features, like your higher level spells, work at all.)
By the way, it might be worth also having a guide section for Not-Mystic-Theurges, in the event that you (or usually more to the point your GM) are less than comfortable with early entry methods. Here is a post I made on the subject (before I became aware of the newer potential early entry methods for Mystic Theurge); this one also tries to make you a Bard at the same time, so if you can get rid of that requirement, it becomes easier. (And yes, it has Maestro Sorcerer listed early in it -- I did say worst first, and didn't know of the newest early entry tricks to potentially rescue SLA-FAQ-Nerfed Mystic Theurge.)So I included one in the overview, like at the beginning for this reason specifically. Are you suggesting like more options, a better defined section, how can I help you here?
Sorry, I was skipping around to look for specific things, since I didn't have time to read the whole guide yet, and didn't realize you had squeezed this into the Class Overview. Even so, enough options are available, each with its own upsides and downsides, that this would be worth a separate section.
What else has that theurgy feel?
Magaambyan Initiate (Arcanist) and Unlettered Arcanist are two that come immediately to mind. And the Magaambyan Arcanist and Pathfinder Savant prestige classes as well.
Small update: I've gotten through Oracle archetypes and curses on my mini-guide. Still wading through Mysteries and Revelations.
Hm I won't take unlettered because that's technically arcane on arcane BUT magaambyan is a good ass catch, thanks! Totally missed that.
Hmm, that's fine. I consider the Witch to be a Theurge-lite kind of class to start with (getting cure spells on an arcane list to start is a bare minimum requirement to me). An Arcanist that can get access to that spell list and then make use of Exploits to widen that gap seems appropriate. That was the only reason I suggested it.
As for catching that... Well, I did just exhaustively comb through the Arcanist, Cleric, Druid and Oracle classes. Got a lot of that info floating at the front of my head. Haha
See the post I linked above, which has a list, but with the following modifications:{. . .}
On the topic of the guide section...Yeah I could probably do that. Can you give me some more suggestions? So far I haveRazmiran Sorc
Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle
Spell Sage Wizard
Halycon/Feyspeaker DruidWhat else has that theurgy feel?
- •Ditch the Bard stuff unless you need that too (the post was in response to somebody who DID need that too);
•Ditch Maestro Sorcerer (because it's bad, as ably pointed out in your Sorcerer guide;
•While Summoning-focused but otherwise general 9/9 caster (also listed in there) technically works (and can work pretty well), it doesn't have the Theurgy feel;
•Spirit Guide Oracle with Lore Spirit and Arcane Enlightenment (also listed in there) is risky, because if the GM reads the text that says "The shaman can add a number of spells from the sorcerer/wizard spell list equal to her Charisma modifier (minimum 1) to the list of shaman spells she can prepare" and says "you don't prepare spells or have Shaman spells", then it doesn't work. I don't think that is Rules As Intended, but it is a potential pitfall of this option with the Rules As Written. Otherwise it would be great, and less MAD than being a Shaman with the Lore Spirit.
I missed the Halcyon/Feyspeaker Druid combination -- good catch.
{. . .}
On the topic of the guide section...Yeah I could probably do that. Can you give me some more suggestions? So far I haveRazmiran Sorc
Ancient Lorekeeper Oracle
Spell Sage Wizard
Halycon/Feyspeaker DruidWhat else has that theurgy feel?
Shabti Oracles with their FCB (or any Oracle with Planar Heritage: (Shabti)) would arguably make for a pretty decent theurge impersonator, since they get to poach spells from the Psychic list. An Ancient Lorekeeper w/ Planar Heritage would thus have access to the arcane, psychic, and cleric spell list.
Similarly, a Human/Half-Orc/Half-Elf Shaman with Planar Heritage (Shabti) would have access to the shaman, cleric, and psychic spell list through FCB usage. Moreso if you add in Wandering Spirit for Arcane Enlightenment, as mentioned above.
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I'm slowly hacking my way through the Oracle Mysteries. I've gotten about halfway through them. I didn't realize they'd likely be the largest entry in my list, but... still enjoy it a lot more than with Clerics and their domains.
Link to WIP breakdown . Reposting the link so its easier to find.
Okay, finally starting to be able to get to the Mystic Theurge guide in earnest.
Introduction: name typo (copy-pasted from the Sorcerer guide? -- they both have the same typo).
Class Overview: Prestige Class Features: Nothing Else: Fortunately, if you have a Wizard-style Arcane Bond (the most common type), you don't NEED the prestige class to progress it; in fact, not progressing it saves you some money if you have to replace it. This kind of Arcane Bond doesn't care what class level you are, only your caster level, apart from charging you more to replace it as the associated class level increases. This includes enchanting it as if you had the corresponding Item Creation Feat -- again, those only care what your caster level is, not what your class level is. So for a Mystic Theurge who is part Wizard (or who is part Sorcerer that somehow wound up with a Wizard-style Arcane Bond and then makes the investment to use it to be able to cast from a spellbook as indicated in the Sorcerer guide) this is actually not a bad thing. So then you just have to be careful to pick Arcane School/Domain/etc. selections that give you powers that also don't care what your class level is. If you manage to do all that, this stops being Red.
Class Options: Wisdom-Based: Divine: Cleric: Some Cleric archetypes trade out Channel Energy for something that might be more useful. Many of these also care what your Cleric level is, but some don't. The standout is Foundation of Faith (instead of Channel Energy, at 1st level you add your Constitution Bonus to your CMD and to your DC to be Intimidated); if you DON'T use early entry on your Cleric side, at 3rd level you get Granite Focus (use a Move Action to add your Constitution Modifier to your Concentration checks to cast Cleric spells), but sadly this won't apply to spells from your other class (but it DOES apply to Cleric spells you cast powered by your other class using Combined Spells. Honorable mention goes to Forgemaster -- Runeforger (the ability that technically replaces Channel Energy) does depend upon your Cleric level for number of Runes you can learn (and a few require a certain number of Cleric levels to learn), but the uses per day are keyed off Intelligence and for how long they last, but in most cases the strength of the effect doesn't depend upon your Cleric level, so you can get some use out of them; also, at 1st level, you get Divine Smith, which gives you a built-in Metamagic level cost reducer and caster level boost for spells that target a weapon, shield, or armor; Divine Smith doesn't care what your Cleric level is; if you DON'T use early entry on your Cleric side, you get Craft Magic Arms and Armor as a bonus feat at 3rd level. If you are considering Crafting, and are willing to be a Dwarf, Forgemaster may be for you. (And with the Constitution bonus, being a Dwarf is actually also good for Foundation of Faith.)
How to Theurge: Don't Forget Your Feats: Liberation Channel generally won't be an option except at epic levels (well after finishingi Mystic Theurge and well after most campaigns quit), because it requires Channel Energy 7d6.
How to Theurge: Don't Forget Your Feats: Ritual Hex: Since Hexes scale with Witch (or Shaman) level, but Mystic Theurge does not progress them, this isn't going to get you much. Might be of some use for a NPC Witch + Shaman Mystic Theurge that didn't use early entry on either side.
How to Theurge: Don't Forget Your Feats: Summon Guardian Spirit: relevant to this: Guardian Spirit Template.
Anti-Entry: Alternative Options for Theurgy: Class Options: Permanent Off-List Spells: (A&D) Add Witch: Some Witch Patrons are rich in spells that are not on your spell list, which while technically arcane, is really an arcane+divine blend. The standout is Healing, which makes you not too far off from a complete Cleric replacement while still being not too shabby as an arcane spellcaster, while still having Hexes to save you on spells per day. Helpful (but not required) archetypes for this are Hedge Witch, Herb Witch, and Hex Channeler (the latter for rider effects only -- don't spend additional Hexes to increase the Channel Energy dice); alternatively, if you want to pump up your spells per day (to the same as Sorcerer) and don't mind being a spontaneous caster, consider Ley Line Guardian. Purple (5/5). (You can combine Hedge Witch with Herb Witch or Hex Channeler, but not with both; Ley Line Guardian is incompatible with the other 3 archetypes.)
Anti-Entry: Alternative Options for Theurgy: Class Options: Temporary Off-List Spells: Add Ecclisitheurge Cleric (limited rotating list -- could be instead be considered permanent with different parts accessible at a time): Requires careful deity choice to get you the most Domains that have the arcane spells you want and Scribe Scroll (since you don't get this feat free; take it at 1st level if you can). You will get access to a good variety of spells that you can save as Scrolls, because you get to switch your Secondary Domain bonus spell list every time you prepare spells. Green (3/5).
Anti-Entry: Alternative Options for Theurgy: Class Options: Temporary Off-List Spells: Shaman (Lore Spirit: Arcane Enlightenment): Typo "were" where I think you meant "weren't".
Anti-Entry: Alternative Options for Theurgy: Class Options: Temporary Off-List Spells: Spirit Guide Oracle (Lore Spirit: Arcane Enlightenment): With the wording of Arcane Enlightenment, a GM might read it as not working for an Oracle, because it says it adds spells to your Shaman spell list. I don't think this is Rules As Intended, but Rules As Written it could give you trouble. Your table mileage may vary.
Anti-Entry: Alternative Options for Theurgy: Class Options: Temporary Off-List Spells: Spell Sage Wizard Archetype: You still have Scribe Scroll, and it has been pointed out to me elsewhere on these boards that you can use Spell Study to supply spells even for the creation of Spell Completion (and Spell Trigger) items, even if you would need to make a UMD check to be able to use the Scrolls you make this way. So get the Pragmatic Activator trait to make your UMD Intelligence-based (which sadly won't get it in class for that -- if for some other reason you actually have a decent Charisma, get Dangerously Curious instead to get it in class), and then make Scrolls of off-list spells that you might need to cast fast. Often, you won't need to cast off-list spells fast, and can cast them after combat has finished, so then you cast them yourself if you aren't running too low on spells. This is particularly useful to do in combination with your other Spell Sage ability, Focused Spells -- if you need to make a Caster Level Check to have a decent shot at removing some bad status, this could really save your party. Suddenly, Spell Sage Wizard isn't so awful after all.
Anti-Entry: Alternative Options for Theurgy: Class Options: Temporary Off-List Spells: Skald (no archetype required): At 5th level, the vanilla Skald class gets Spell Kenning, which lets you cast any spell on the bard, cleric, or sorcerer/wizard spell list, initially once per day, then gradually increasing. The casting time increases only to 1 round (unless the spell already has a longer casting time). You have Scribe Scroll (see Spell Sage Wizard, above), are already Charisma-based, and already have UMD in class.
Anti-Entry: Alternative Options for Theurgy: Prestige Classes: The following prestige classes need Favored Prestige Class + Prestigious Spellcaster: Pathfinder Savant, and Agent of the Grave (the latter of which is only a 5 level class, making Favored Prestige Class less good, even though it's still necessary, meaning its feat tax nature increases).
(Hey, I managed to finish in just 1 shot beyond my previous brief foray!)
I made a minor mistake in my last post (read the archetype table wrong): You actually can combine Witch archetypes Ley Line Guardian and Hex Channeler, if you want both Sorcerer-style spellcasting and Channel Energy rider effects (you still wouldn't want to invest any more than the one Hex at 2nd level into Channel Energy).
A bit of additional explanation on Hex Channeler vs Cleric 2 + Arcane 1 or Cleric 1 + Arcane 2 into Mystic Theurge: If you have 1 or 2 levels of Cleric (or other channeling class) and then go into Mystic Theurge (and eventually another prestige class, or you went back to your arcane class) and never progress Channel Energy again, not only does your Channel Energy remain at 1d6, but also your Channel DC (important for most rider effects) never proceeds beyond 1st or 2nd level. In contrast, if you are a single-class Witch with the Hex Channeler archetype, and you never invest anything beyond the 2nd level Hex into Hex Channeling (obligately replaced by the archetype), the following text applies: "The hex channeler uses her witch level as her cleric level for all other effects dependent upon channel energy (except increasing the amount of damage healed or dealt)." So this means that your Channeling Save DC increases at the same rate as that of a normal single-class Cleric, which is important for rider effects that have a DC but don't care how many damage dice your Channel Energy does, with the most common examples being Turn Undead and Command Undead (and Witches with a subset of Unique Patrons would also qualify for Variant Channeling, with some of the rider effects from Variant Channeling also not depending upon how many damage dice your Channel Energy does).
A further comparison of Mystic Theurges with Not-Mystic-Theurges:
Mystic Theurge advantages:
- •Sheer number of spells per day, once you get past the low to mid levels -- if you just want variety of utility and buff spells, this is for you (and to really guard against running out of crucial spells early while maintaining good diversity, go Prepared/Spontaneous);
•Combined Spells;
•Spell Synthesis (including access to lesser version before level 10 by way of a feat) -- unique action economy boosting class feature, although the once per day limit (without paying additional feat tax) hurts;
•Prepared/Prepared Mystic Theurge can prepare greatest number of different spells, and has lesser total access but (due to sheer number of spells per day once you get past the low to mid levels) greater sustainable access to spell lists than most Temporary Off-List Spell Not-Mystic-Theurges, while having greater total access than most Permanent Off-List Spell Not-Mystic-Theurges;
•Prepared/Spontaneous Mystic Theurge can prepare lesser but still really good number of different spells (still beats the Not-Mystic-THeurges once you get past the low to mid levels), and benefits more from Combined Spells;
•For some Bonded Item base class (usually Wizard) builds, lack of class feature progression is a minor positive feature, not a bug.
Not-Mystic-Theurge advantages
- •Highest caster level (important if you are up against Spell Resistance or an opposed Caster Level Check); Spell Sage Wizard is the standout here with Focused Spells;
•Highest spell level (except for Skald, who instead gets Bardic and martial stuff);
•In most cases, uninterrupted class feature progression (even some of the prestige classes progress certain base class features) -- if you want Channel Energy and/or Hexes (and/or Revelations, etc.), this is for you, with certain builds of Witch, Shaman, and Oracle being the standouts for having the option to get both;
•Some Temporary Off-List Spell Not-Mystic-Theurges get greater diversity of spell access (even though fewer off-list spells at a time, and often with impaired casting) than Mystic Theurges or Permanent Off-List Spell Not-Mystic-Theurges.