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I honestly did not have that experience with my casters nor my Animal Barbarian ;-)I can see non-weapon monks and animal barbarians. My casters though will usually have something in 1 hand and the other open for casting: maybe an Archaic Wayfinder or a staff, maybe a weapon [and might tape a spellheart on that too] or a shield.
Playstyle preferences I think. I usually prefer the Shield cantrip to the item for my casters.
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I had a monk player do this. Draw two potions before we went into a fight and just hold them all battle long while kicking people.
Narratively they thought it felt really stupid but it was an obvious mechanical winner.
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Secondly, there are ways to improve Battle Medicines rolls and reduce temp immunity times [like Medic or Forensic Medicine] where potions/elixirs stay the same. You can get base Battle Medicine healing + level + [up to 15] and immunity 1 hour and the ability to ignore immunity 1/hour... Or a standard potion/elixir.
Check. Your. Maths.
Potions heal more than Battle Medicine + Medic Dedication. And potions don't have immunities.Now, tell me, how many times have you started a fight with a useless free hand and a potion in the inventory? So I stick to my position: Learn to use consumables (as I'm pretty sure after this conversation you'll start to use potions more). Instead of relying on Battle Medicine abysmal healing (as it seems it's the proper word when you are healing less).
As a side note, Potions and Battle Medicine can be used together. It is even stronger as you can heal twice the same character.
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Playstyle preferences I think. I usually prefer the Shield cantrip to the item for my casters.
You don't have to pick as you can have an item in hand AND cast Shield, even another shield: with only 1 shield block/10 minute and a higher AC bonus for raising an actual shield it can be beneficial to have both. Heck, even a weapon with parry can keep your AC after the Shield's shield block if used. LOL As I said, I usually don't have enough hands to go around. ;)
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Check. Your. Maths.
Ah... I did. Lets take a Healing Potion (Greater) that restores 6d8+20 Hit Points (Item 12). At 14 Battle Medicine does 2d8 + 54 [breakdown: +level (14, Forensic Medicine), skill roll 30 (30, Master roll +10, medic) without a roll (assurance) and the next potion is 18th. At 6th it's the potion at 3d8+10 vs 2d8+21...
Potions heal more than Battle Medicine + Medic Dedication. And potions don't have immunities.
It's pretty close without Forensic Medicine and with it's no contest.
Now, tell me, how many times have you started a fight with a useless free hand and a potion in the inventory?
Never, if I can help it. I have a free hand because I need one for an ability or I fill it with something useful. Potions generally go into the communal party bags somewhere incase the healer(s) needs fixing and they are on the ground before I can sell them.
So I stick to my position: Learn to use consumables (as I'm pretty sure after this conversation you'll start to use potions more).
LOL I'd take that bet.
Instead of relying on Battle Medicine abysmal healing (as it seems it's the proper word when you are healing less).
I've seen a lot more healing from Battle medicine in one combat than I've seen from potion healing in several levels of play [excluding free elixirs]. I've seen main combat healing from battle medicine but have yet to see it with potions.
As a side note, Potions and Battle Medicine can be used together. It is even stronger as you can heal twice the same character.
If you do it right, you battle medicine the same person twice without the potion. But of course you can combine different ways to heal: it's just that some costs you money and some don't. I'll always pick the free version first.
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Check. Your. Maths.Ah... I did. Lets take a Healing Potion (Greater) that restores 6d8+20 Hit Points (Item 12). At 14 Battle Medicine does 2d8 + 54 [breakdown: +level (14, Forensic Medicine), skill roll 30 (30, Master roll +10, medic) without a roll (assurance) and the next potion is 18th. At 6th it's the potion at 3d8+10 vs 2d8+21...
Compared to an assurance Medicine with Medic Dedication:
At level 3, potions heal 5 more.At level 6, 0.5 less.
9: 5.5 more.
12: 23 more
14: 2 less
15: same
18: 17 more
And clearly, most Battle Medicine I've seen used were not with Medic Dedication.
Forensic Medicine is only accessible to Investigator, so please let's stay focused on the subject: supplemental/emergency healing that can be used by everyone. Not best healing output in the game (which is Cleric and doesn't have to use supplemental healing much).
I've also seen a lot of Healer's Gloves bought, very few used. Once again, potions are a superior choice as they heal the same, cost less and can be used multiple times per day.
Healing potions are very good. Just people don't realize it.
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Check. Your. Maths.Ah... I did. Lets take a Healing Potion (Greater) that restores 6d8+20 Hit Points (Item 12). At 14 Battle Medicine does 2d8 + 54 [breakdown: +level (14, Forensic Medicine), skill roll 30 (30, Master roll +10, medic) without a roll (assurance) and the next potion is 18th. At 6th it's the potion at 3d8+10 vs 2d8+21...
Potions heal more than Battle Medicine + Medic Dedication. And potions don't have immunities.It's pretty close without Forensic Medicine and with it's no contest.
Now, tell me, how many times have you started a fight with a useless free hand and a potion in the inventory?Never, if I can help it. I have a free hand because I need one for an ability or I fill it with something useful. Potions generally go into the communal party bags somewhere incase the healer(s) needs fixing and they are on the ground before I can sell them.
So I stick to my position: Learn to use consumables (as I'm pretty sure after this conversation you'll start to use potions more).LOL I'd take that bet.
Instead of relying on Battle Medicine abysmal healing (as it seems it's the proper word when you are healing less).I've seen a lot more healing from Battle medicine in one combat than I've seen from potion healing in several levels of play [excluding free elixirs]. I've seen main combat healing from battle medicine but have yet to see it with potions.
As a side note, Potions and Battle Medicine can be used together. It is even stronger as you can heal twice the same character.If you do it right, you battle medicine the same person twice without the potion. But of course you can combine different ways to heal: it's just that some costs you money and some don't. I'll always pick the free version first.
Nothing is for free. If the cost is not in gp, it is in resources or in build options.
Which is after all one of the great strengths of PF2 design IMO.
Forensic Medicine is only accessible to Investigator, so please let's stay focused on the subject
LOL I'M the one on point here as my original post you replied to included Forensic Medicine: you know the one where you told me to learn math... :P
But I made my point, that it isn't "abysmal healing": it's competitive IMO.
Nothing is for free. If the cost is not in gp, it is in resources or in build options.
Which is after all one of the great strengths of PF2 design IMO.
I meant free in cash: as far as "resources or in build options", it's pretty light on those IMO. 2 1st level skill feats is a pretty low entry point. Medic only requires 1 class feat [you can pick up 2 skill feat] to get out of, though you only need the dedication if you don't want another. It's only if you want the trifecta of Forensic Medicine that you get to the need for a specific build IMO. I see quite a lot of people I game with take Battle Medicine and more than once everyone had it. ;)
Now I will agree with you on "personal preference". Some people do seem to love consumables and I never really have: the current price structure on them makes me not use them at all if possible, other than the off McGuffins [like items of water breathing for an underwater adventure] or true emergencies. I have to be REAL desperate to pull out a potion: I can taste the gp it costs... :P
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The example with the barbarian considering a healing potion was pretty interesting. But what if the math was a bit different, and overall more reliable? Because who really enjoys rolling 1 on 1d6 healing?
What if a healing potion just gave you its level * your class base HP?
So a wizard drinks a level 1 healing potion, gets 6hp. Fighter drinks it and gets 10hp. With a level 5 healing potion they get 30 and 50.
At that point I think the high price of healing potions is fully justified. You still don't want to guzzle them because it cuts into your margins a lot, but when you take one you'll feel much better. And it's actually worth the hand-switcheroo. Because it'd be silly if only 1H builds were really "allowed".
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Although uncommon, a great item for making the action economy of consumables better is the Gloves of Storing.
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Re: Talismans. I think they ought to be a lot cheaper, and with the conditions switched around a lot. Don't do "burn money, then make a check and see if it worked". Do "if you already made the check, you can burn money to get an effect for sure".
PF1 created a lot of fear for players using tons of consumables to run-around build economy. But talismans have the Affix mechanic to prevent too many of them being used all at once.
With a bit more design love I think talismans could really help the game because they bring more characters into the "consumable game" because they work well with full hands. And also if talismans are relatively cheap but also specific, it makes it interesting to say "I think behind that door is an X so I'm going to affix an Y talisman".
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On the healing potion comparison - it might just be me but regardless of what post is being replied to, using a edge case like forensic medicine investigator with medic archetype is not really a genuine comparison
All parties have access to healing potions. Very few will have that exact build. More will have medic dedication especially with free archetype and most will have a lot least one battle medicine user
But edge cases are not really helpful in my view
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On the healing potion comparison - it might just be me but regardless of what post is being replied to, using a edge case like forensic medicine investigator with medic archetype is not really a genuine comparison
All parties have access to healing potions. Very few will have that exact build. More will have medic dedication especially with free archetype and most will have a lot least one battle medicine user
But edge cases are not really helpful in my view
Investigator with Medic might be rare, Medic is not. And with Medic comes Doctors visitation. One action flourish with move and BM, after which you can immediately BM again. So for 2 actions you can move and BM twice, which blows healing potions to pieces. Plus no cost, you always have that available. Around lvl 10-12, master skill, +2 skill item, it really starts to shine.
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The answer is simple and it already exists in the game:
Automatic Bonus Progression.
There. No homebrews or house rules. Your players will be able to buy anything they want because they don't need to buy power.
The answer is simple and it already exists in the game:
Automatic Bonus Progression.
There. No homebrews or house rules. Your players will be able to buy anything they want because they don't need to buy power.
ABP is pretty nice, though it confused my table a lot (the phrasing of potency bonus lead some of my newer players into thinking it stacked with item bonuses), and you need to do a major overhaul on mutagens. I think changing them to status bonuses is probs good enough
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I think ABP solves a different problem, namely required permanent items. It's got very little to do with consumables. If you use ABP you're supposed to reduce the amount of money & loot because people don't need to afford runes anymore. But it doesn't really do anything about consumables feeling overpriced.
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I think ABP solves a different problem, namely required permanent items. It's got very little to do with consumables. If you use ABP you're supposed to reduce the amount of money & loot because people don't need to afford runes anymore. But it doesn't really do anything about consumables feeling overpriced.
Yeah, IMO ABP makes consumables even LESS appealing as the money you get is reduced making consumables seem even more expensive vs cool non-required permanent items you might not have picked without ABP.
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Investigator with Medic might be rare, Medic is not. And with Medic comes Doctors visitation. One action flourish with move and BM, after which you can immediately BM again. So for 2 actions you can move and BM twice, which blows healing potions to pieces. Plus no cost, you always have that available. Around lvl 10-12, master skill, +2 skill item, it really starts to shine.On the healing potion comparison - it might just be me but regardless of what post is being replied to, using a edge case like forensic medicine investigator with medic archetype is not really a genuine comparison
All parties have access to healing potions. Very few will have that exact build. More will have medic dedication especially with free archetype and most will have a lot least one battle medicine user
But edge cases are not really helpful in my view
It only costs 2 Class feats (your most precious build resource) and usually your highest skill proficiency. Not a small cost, but a defining one actually.
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Talismans are a cool idea, but a bit expensive and niche.
One Talisman house rule I have done is remove the Prerequisite requirements for proficiencies on them. I don't like that as written they only provide boosts to people already good at the skill and thus less likely to need it (that's what Skill Feats are for). Removing this limit means characters might be more willing to invest in the situational items for when they'd need to try an atypical tactic.
It only costs 2 Class feats (your most precious build resource) and usually your highest skill proficiency. Not a small cost, but a defining one actually.
The base dedication bumps up Medicine proficiency to expert and Doctors visitation isn't required, just nice to have. As to class feats, there are some classes that you'll often see people complain that the feats aren't too exciting overall: so for them, it's not that much of a defining choice, as replacing options they didn't like. IMO, it's only as defining as you make it with your build: it could be trivial or integral to it. It's up to each character/player to figure that out for themselves.
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Investigator with Medic might be rare, Medic is not. And with Medic comes Doctors visitation. One action flourish with move and BM, after which you can immediately BM again. So for 2 actions you can move and BM twice, which blows healing potions to pieces. Plus no cost, you always have that available. Around lvl 10-12, master skill, +2 skill item, it really starts to shine.On the healing potion comparison - it might just be me but regardless of what post is being replied to, using a edge case like forensic medicine investigator with medic archetype is not really a genuine comparison
All parties have access to healing potions. Very few will have that exact build. More will have medic dedication especially with free archetype and most will have a lot least one battle medicine user
But edge cases are not really helpful in my view
You might want be careful with your abbreviations: 'BM' has very different meanings outside of this game, at least one of them making your post hilarious in a juvenile scatological sort of way (I chuckled)...
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Y'all are probably just forgetting but this isn't Pathfinder 1e. ABP in this edition doesn't require money reduction at all. The rule itself says that you can "ignore as much as you want" of the normal treasure table, which means that "not at all" to be a completely valid answer. Players with more money will eventually buy lots of consumables.
My players definitely are. They just don't care about alchemy, but scrolls and other consumables? Absolutely.
Also, consumables are overpriced when you need to save your money for every single thing necessary, while the ABP will already provide for it and unless the players only are interested in buying an elemental rune, they will eventually be interested in using their money on several stuff (specially since the gap between item levels can be daunting).
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How is that different from "if I give my players much more treasure than required, maybe they'll start liking consumables (since they ran out of investment slots)"?
ABP tells you that you "can ignore the table" because you no longer need to put in treasure. You can just... not do that. Because players already got the bonuses that you no longer need to place.
How is that different from "if I give my players much more treasure than required, maybe they'll start liking consumables (since they ran out of investment slots)"?
Because under the normal system they can buy power.
Give 1000GP for a level 1 character and they start the game with a +2 Striking Weapon, completely breaking the game from the get go. The same goes for extra armor, saving throws, etc.
You can give 10000 gold for a ABP character and they won't be able to buy a single item that grant them additional power at level 1. Not even an elemental rune.
That's the difference.
ABP tells you that you "can ignore the table" because you no longer need to put in treasure. You can just... not do that. Because players already got the bonuses that you no longer need to place.
It's because since the mandatory stuff is already given, then the GM can freely give as much or as little loot. Which means that a GM might simply maintain major parts (or the whole) table and the game is still stable.
