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The concept of grasping historical or emotional connections and patterns in the universe sounds very occult to me, especially now that we have the explanation given in Secrets of Magic.
Taken from the Secrets of Magic book:
"Occult power stems not from isolation but from connection. Peel away all the regalia, the sheet music, the chanting, the wiggling fingers, and the mystery, and what do you have? A story. [...] every object that carries even a semblance of symbolism—all strained through the myriad combination of senses we each experience. Each of these elements forms your narrative language, rooted in your thoughts and emotions. Each is a tool to create and manipulate a story."
Some examples to back my point:
1. Your esoterica is literally defined as "objects with symbolic significance", and so are your implements.
2. The Esoteric Anthitesis uses the example of a chain broken to free a captive and then used to fight a tyrant. This to me is the power of symbolism or storytelling pushed into reality.
3. The Divine Disharmony feat. The idea of channeling the power of a deity through a holy symbol is something clearly divine, but grabbing two symbols from deities that hate each other and using that to frighten a creature employs power from the history between those deities, and not from the deities themselves. It's using divine objects but with occult methods.
4. The whole first page of the class screams occult to me, but it's too much text to quote it here.
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The class is a different spin on the tropes the PF1 Occultist was trying to fulfill so I don't think this is a surprise to anyone. The arguments for why the Thaumaturge is charisma based are all pretty much the same as the arguments for why the Bard is the core occult caster.
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My problem with the Charisma argument is that I find no explanation on why the Thaumaturge is able to push their will into the universe more than a Scoundrel Rogue could. They as people aren't magical, just users of magical things, so I'd prefer to leave that ability to the Psychics.
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I think they are supposed to be magical as people and not just users of magical things. They can't just hand their implements to others and have others do esoteric antitheses or amulet's abeyance, it is the thaumaturge who makes it happen by drawing supernatural connections from the amulet to the situation.
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yeah they aren't spellcasters but they are still *magical* a certain level of skill of training of these techniques that makes you a Thaumaturge.
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Ok, the training part is a good argument. However, I'd still prefer to see it as an INT or WIS-based class. Anyhow, the point of this thread is about the feel of the class' tradition. I think they're more occult than anything else.
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I would agree that they feel more Occult with splashes of the other traditions throne in there, but even the way they handle those traditions feel like a very *occult* manner.
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I'm a little confused by the premise of this thread. Is there any indication that Thaumaturges might not be occult somewhere? I thought they were pretty upfront that this is intended to be an occult flavored class, but maybe I missed something.
Far from being occult characters in disguise, I would just say they are occult characters.
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The main description of the class states that "You scavenge the best parts of every magical tradition". They are proficient with Arcana, Nature, Occultism, and Religion, and gain abilities with traits that correspond to different traditions. I also haven't seen any official statement that confirms them as an occult class.
However, the whole class flavor and methods feel very occult, and that's why I find the class theme a little confusing. If it fully embraced its occult identity maybe it would just import elements from other traditions rather than delving into them with traits and free skills.
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I think you're reading too much into that sentence. They're occult characters, full stop. Every part of their class interacts with how the Occult tradition is presented in Lost Omens. While they do pick up bits of knowledge from other traditions, they do so from a strong occult lens.
The Dark Archive book is, in and of itself, a book about occult themes in Pathfinder 2. Edit: the starting point for the class's design was the the same themes and narratives that inspired the PF1 occultist, which is something they've mentioned more than once.
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They're occult characters, full stop.
They feel kind of occult, but this is explicitly not supported by the class' mechanics. None of their default abilities are Occult, they have no Occult spell training, and they have feats spread across all four traditions. We've been specifically told in the class previews that it's not an Occult class, too and rather a dabbler.
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It's occult adjacent. ;)
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While I agree that it has strong occult ties, I think it also works exceedingly well for each of the traditions. I kinda want to do a primal one for Strength of Thousands.
We've been specifically told in the class previews that it's not an Occult class, too and rather a dabbler.
I did not see that, so now I'm even more confused. Given how find flaws and esoteric antithesis work, and the way the implements section keeps referencing stories, I find it difficult to see this as anything other than an occult class.
If the intent is to not be strongly tied to the occult tradition, those sections could use some revision to deemphasize the use of stories and oral traditions, because using stories to create effects is now explicitly tied to the occult tradition. Some class options that let you more strongly lean into how other traditions operate are probably needed.
While I agree that it has strong occult ties, I think it also works exceedingly well for each of the traditions. I kinda want to do a primal one for Strength of Thousands.
Just out of curiosity, how would a primal one work for you? Does your esoterica run on various poisons and venoms?
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They're occult characters, full stop.They feel kind of occult, but this is explicitly not supported by the class' mechanics. None of their default abilities are Occult, they have no Occult spell training, and they have feats spread across all four traditions. We've been specifically told in the class previews that it's not an Occult class, too and rather a dabbler.
Yeah they are basically a paranormal hunter, dabbling in all traditions methods to better hunt them.
Ghosts and spirits are what people mind goes first when think paranormal but fairies (primal), fiends (divine) and mysterious beasts (arcane/primal) are also staples on that kind narrative.
I think you're reading too much into that sentence. They're occult characters, full stop. Every part of their class interacts with how the Occult tradition is presented in Lost Omens. While they do pick up bits of knowledge from other traditions, they do so from a strong occult lens.
The Dark Archive book is, in and of itself, a book about occult themes in Pathfinder 2. Edit: the starting point for the class's design was the the same themes and narratives that inspired the PF1 occultist, which is something they've mentioned more than once.
Yes, very much an occult entry into dealing with the whole spectrum of magical traditions.
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My problem with the Charisma argument is that I find no explanation on why the Thaumaturge is able to push their will into the universe more than a Scoundrel Rogue could. They as people aren't magical, just users of magical things, so I'd prefer to leave that ability to the Psychics.
The same reason that Scoundrel Rogues can get angry but Barbarians actually get bonuses from doing so.
That said I'm not a fan of Charisma as the main stat, even if it is the "enforce your will" stat.
To flip-flop on what I said earlier in a different thread - Charisma, while for me working for the theme of the class generally, makes absolutely no sense being used instead of Int (or Wis for that matter) for Recall Knowledge. I mean I could see it work, if I was drunk, and playing…chess…with a…pigeon. “Yep, their personality is so vast…that just by being awesome and staying excellent to folk, they… know… such an array of…things.”
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If the intent is to not be strongly tied to the occult tradition, those sections could use some revision to deemphasize the use of stories and oral traditions, because using stories to create effects is now explicitly tied to the occult tradition.
Where is that in the RAW ?
But really, the Thaumaturge uses some basics of Occult POV, but that does not necessarily give them one Tradition of spellcasting over another.
They are still Martials after all.
Which is likely the reason for CHA. We already have the Know-it-all INT Martial in the Investigator. And the enemy-focused WIS Martial in the Ranger.
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Where is that in the RAW ?
Not talking about rules, I’m talking about flavor and narrative presentation. For that, Secrets of Magic page 12.
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What is an “occult character?” Technically, in PF2, occult is a tradition of spells. the thaumturge doesn’t get spells, so fundamentally the class is a martial class not tied to any tradition.
That said, their approach to exploring the magical nature of the setting does feel tied to the approach of occult casters to their tradition, but the thaumaturge is not limited by tradition. It is a little weird, and I think some new essays in the dark archive are going to be necessary to challenge the very assumption of magic always being associated with a specific tradition, but I like it’s ties to being a con artist. You are tricking magic into misbehaving at a very fundamental level. Not just the traditions of magic, but deep under riding currents of magic that flow through creatures themselves.
I think I would prefer if they were truly occult and not all-traditions occult-adjacent.
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It's meant to channel not only the themes of stories and cultural zeitgeist from the occult treatise, but also listening to and speaking to the world around you from the primal treatise, and also especially the Jatembean Soil and Path theory of arcane magic (since Jatembe was a known syncretist who believed that maybe all four traditions were one). Relevant quote from Soil and Path:
"The Soil and Path approach, also called
the Channeling Method, comes out of the
Magaambya in Nantambu. Proponents of the
Soil and Path argue that the universe has more
flexibility in its physical laws than typically
believed. Rather than stone, the universe is soil,
and sufficient application of will and energy can
command reality to overturn itself. Such power
is generally outside the grasp of all except gods,
magically potent creatures, or the most puissant
of archmages. The act of forcing your will upon
reality leaves marks, like the wheels of a wagon
leave ruts in the soil. These ruts channel magical
energy down precisely the same path it had taken
before, and in so doing make subsequent castings
of the spell easier. If the first act of wizardry is
equivalent to forging your way through dense
jungle, soon there is a trail, then a path, and
finally a wide road, at which point any arcane
spellcaster can cast the spells."
Thaumaturges are the wonder-workers who seek to use their charisma to push upon reality in small ways even when they are not the mightiest of archmages.
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First of all, thank you so much Mark for responding to my post. It's very exciting when a designer/developer does an effort to clarify things, take feedback, or alleviate concerns.
With that said, if the intention is to give the class a very holistic approach, I think the Thaumaturge has a ton of potential that could be explored with more clarity in the flavor texts. If I compare the number of times the class refers to occult-related elements such as symbolism, narratives, the paranormal, the tarot, etc., vs other elements normally related to the other traditions, it feels out of balance.
Also, I wouldn't use the Jatembean's theory to justify the ability to draw power from all traditions, because one could take that same argument to allow Druids to cast occult spells and oracles arcane spells, which is fine by me if that's someone's cup of tea, but it makes definitions kinda wibbly-wobbly for the sake of discussion. This, unless one makes the class uncommon and ties it to Jatembe's place in the setting.
Finally, and this is a preference thing, I'm not super convinced about the idea of pushing your will into reality. I'm more interested in playing a person capable of finding or learning the patterns in the universe rather than one that enforces their will in a Godlike manner just smaller. I think the idea of pushing upon reality overlaps a little bit with the Psychic's potential flavor, as it can use its mind (and charisma) to manifest thoughtforms, break time and space, and as their greatest 10th level spell says, "Alter Reality".
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I don't see it, the Psychic and Thaumaturge pull in pretty radically different directions.
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Not talking about rules, I’m talking about flavor and narrative presentation. For that, Secrets of Magic page 12.
Where is that in the RAW ?
I apologize, this may come off as more harsh than I intended. I fully acknowledge that the rules as written for the class do not tilt as heavily into the occult sphere as the flavor does, which is why I’ve said that the narrative space, to me, comes across as strongly occult. I can see where other approaches could be done, like Mark mentions in the post above mine, but I don’t think the fluff text conveys that enough. I’m not ultimately sure if I’d prefer altering the mechanics to more closely cleave to occult trappings, or alter the fluff and perhaps add feats or features that add additional traditional approaches (something that screams Inquisitor seems like an obvious potential subclass, for example), but as it is I now agree with the OP.
Ironically, some of the arguments presented to me during the debates about…a certain other class where I felt the mechanics didn’t match up with the fluff, keep springing to mind. Like when Waterslethe said that irrespective of exact mechanics, you can’t get much more —- than the class we got, and I feel the same applies to the Thaumaturge and an occult martial. It is VERY weird to be on this side of the divide so quickly after those arguments.
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This is sort of a side tangent but I wonder if there could be a potential class feature in which you pick one of the magic skills and let you it for all recall knowledge checks against monsters.
The class could still give you all four skills at the start but you would pick one that is your focus or how you primarily view the world or the creatures that live inside it.
A Thaumaturge whose foci is Arcane maybe knows more about the arcane overall but is able to view and study the magic of all things.
A Primal foci thaumaturge would understand all monsters as a part of a cycle or anthema to the natural cycle or take a biologist/persevatinoist approach applying their knowledge of the natural world to even supernatural beings.
A divine foci thamaturge would focus on perhaps how creatures relate to religious doctrine, a specific God, or just that all creatures all have that spark of creation inside them.
An occult one would very much keep the current fluff.
This would expand the potential fluff, keep the central theme, and the other recall knowledge skills would be important potentially for various class feats or for knowing about things that aren't monsters. This would also allow thaumaturges a little more wiggle room with their skill increases for things like thievery, intimidation, deception, or diplomacy which all seem like things a thaumaturge may want depending on their fluff.
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A Thaumaturge whose foci is Arcane maybe know more about the arcane overall but is able to view and study the magic of all things.
Your whole list is very much what I had in mind in adding class features that vary your approach, but I also wanted to suggest that Arcane be an experimental method. “I wonder, given your status as a slaver, how the chain of a freed slave would affect your mental stability? I guess there’s only one way to find out.”
An alternative idea, if we want to go with the dabbler and connections between all things I could see a feat or a mechanic where instead of replacing the other skills, perhaps for each of the four magic skills you have at let's say Master you get a +1 circumstance bonus to recall knowledge checks from the other skills.
The class could still give you all four skills at the start but you would pick one that is your focus or how you primarily view the world or the creatures that live inside it.
I think this is a wonderful idea. It would make for a stronger sense of identity in each individual Thaumaturge, balance out the design space of each tradition, it could work as a theoretical compass to guide your understanding of the world, and offer material for those who prefer to specialize rather than being generalists.
I don't see it, the Psychic and Thaumaturge pull in pretty radically different directions.
Can you elaborate, please?
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I don't know if I love the idea of the Thaumaturge getting to use their primary attribute for all knowledge checks, and then getting to use one skill to make all knowledge checks with as well. That seems like overloading the importance of them always being right, and undermining the idea that they are not powerful spell casters, instead, they are sometimes wrong, but are so self-confident and assured in themselves that they tap into an inner magic outside of the traditions to make their beliefs real.
Like a Thaumaturge and a Archmage get into a debate about the weaknesses of a particularly rare arcane creature, and the wizard says, "That is absolutely rediculous to think that salt water is going to have any effect on that creature," and then the Thaunaturge says, "Hold my salty beer here and watch, I didn't say any salt water, I said this specific saltwater, from the salt lake of crying angels will penetrate the magic essence of this monster..."
and then "proves it," only for that Archmage to NEVER be able to replicate the results again.
I think it is lovely and rich story telling material and such a fun way to give a player entertaining narrative power over the game.
Maybe the root of the debate about attributes for this class is whether the class is capable of finding actual truths about these creatures/situations or only manufacturing them. I think giving them actual power, by tapping into Wisdom or Intelligence is actually a lot more destructive than suggesting that they actually just manufacture it themselves, as it implies anyone doing the same should be able to have similar results.
I can see where you are coming from and you mentioned some of the concerns when I was actually coming up with the idea. I don't think
"Has a specific view of the world" and "comes up with weaknesses that others can't quite replicate and don't quite fit" are mutually exclusive concepts.
But I can understand the issue of giving one skill and make it exclusively run off charisma.
I also feel like there is a legitimate issue where the Thaumaturge more rhen any other class feels pressures to use its skill increases on 4 very specific skills. A problem no other class has.
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While I agree that it has strong occult ties, I think it also works exceedingly well for each of the traditions. I kinda want to do a primal one for Strength of Thousands.Just out of curiosity, how would a primal one work for you? Does your esoterica run on various poisons and venoms?
Poisons, as well as bones. Relating things to predator/prey relationships and the like. For outsiders and undead, it could be a rich, natural soil as a link to their alien nature. Also, salt. Always salt.
This is sort of a side tangent but I wonder if there could be a potential class feature in which you pick one of the magic skills and let you it for all recall knowledge checks against monsters.
The class could still give you all four skills at the start but you would pick one that is your focus or how you primarily view the world or the creatures that live inside it.
A Thaumaturge whose foci is Arcane maybe knows more about the arcane overall but is able to view and study the magic of all things.
A Primal foci thaumaturge would understand all monsters as a part of a cycle or anthema to the natural cycle or take a biologist/persevatinoist approach applying their knowledge of the natural world to even supernatural beings.
A divine foci thamaturge would focus on perhaps how creatures relate to religious doctrine, a specific God, or just that all creatures all have that spark of creation inside them.
An occult one would very much keep the current fluff.
This would expand the potential fluff, keep the central theme, and the other recall knowledge skills would be important potentially for various class feats or for knowing about things that aren't monsters. This would also allow thaumaturges a little more wiggle room with their skill increases for things like thievery, intimidation, deception, or diplomacy which all seem like things a thaumaturge may want depending on their fluff.
This is a pretty neat idea. The feature could be called something like a Thaumaturgical Paradigm.
I mean, one of the cool things about Esoteric Antithesis is that it targets the real weakness, even if you do not know what that weakness is, on top of being able to create a rather sizable weakness, even if their wasn't one previously.
Success or better on the recall knowledge part of Find Flaws is not really essential to the class, so focusing too heavily on recalling knowledge doesn't really give you that much, since all you are trying to do is not critically fail the check.
I would agree, except if you fail it does cost an action and as others have mentioned in a fight with lots of weaker foes that's a bit rough( although I suppose that in itself could be balanced by the fact that the weakerfoes will have lower dcs and eventually you can get sympathetic weakness)
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Hopefully, the class eschews its dependency on Recall Knowledge and focuses more on creating weaknesses rather than discovering existing ones.
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Not talking about rules, I’m talking about flavor and narrative presentation. For that, Secrets of Magic page 12.
Where is that in the RAW ?I apologize, this may come off as more harsh than I intended. I fully acknowledge that the rules as written for the class do not tilt as heavily into the occult sphere as the flavor does, which is why I’ve said that the narrative space, to me, comes across as strongly occult. I can see where other approaches could be done, like Mark mentions in the post above mine, but I don’t think the fluff text conveys that enough. I’m not ultimately sure if I’d prefer altering the mechanics to more closely cleave to occult trappings, or alter the fluff and perhaps add feats or features that add additional traditional approaches (something that screams Inquisitor seems like an obvious potential subclass, for example), but as it is I now agree with the OP.
Ironically, some of the arguments presented to me during the debates about…a certain other class where I felt the mechanics didn’t match up with the fluff, keep springing to mind. Like when Waterslethe said that irrespective of exact mechanics, you can’t get much more —- than the class we got, and I feel the same applies to the Thaumaturge and an occult martial. It is VERY weird to be on this side of the divide so quickly after those arguments.
No problem at all. You did not sound harsh to me at all.
Just wanted to put here my latest epiphany on the class.
Thaumaturge is the Occult Martial, just as Champion is the Divine one, Ranger the Primal one and Investigator the Arcane one. It is a matter of their approach to life and to their role in it, even if it does not necessarily translate in magical powers of the aforementioned Traditions.
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Hopefully, the class eschews its dependency on Recall Knowledge and focuses more on creating weaknesses rather than discovering existing ones.
That is what it does actually, RK is just the conveniently existing system they use for this.
I have great hope that the final result will not be so glued to RK as this playtest version is, thanks to all the feedback we will provide.
I said this in another thread, but it feels to me like Thaumaturge is occult but not Occult, and they exist in liminal space between all of the traditions. The Thaumaturge brings forward The Things Between the paradigms mortals have established. Vesitges or cast-off detritus or universal rounding errors or prayers that were never heard.
A folded page of a book half dumped in holy water then set on fire resonates with... something, and also nothing. It isn't explicitly one thing, and maybe the Thaumaturge helps it find its place?