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I think we are losing sight of what Charisma means to this class. Just because the 2 main inspirations for this class are not exactly social butterflies doesn't mean that they don't use the ability in their day-to-day. Constantine, in the comics, constantly uses deceit and negotiation, alongside broad knowledge, to prevail, and that is at the core of what this class does. Making deals with higher powers is already a fully-formed menu of features for the class, and the signature class feature, not to keep repeating this point, is an argument, not a recollection, in that you're claiming a new fact based upon old facts rather than merely remembering old facts.

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Malk_Content wrote:

It's possible that my love of the class comes from my background in rpgs being primarily WoD. I see no problem with magic operating outside of the traditional spell slots and levels paradigm.

The thaumaturge reminds me of several Mage characters I have played.

I think this is where folk are slipping up: Thaumaturge isn't a "research it until I find a way to kill it," class, as much as it's an "I believe I can kill it, based on the stories I've internalized and I will prove that they are true" class. That's where Charisma comes in.

Changing grips is a free action, so I'd argue that implement empowerment with a weapon implement works normally with weapons requiring 2 hands to attack with.

Read as written, if, for example, at second level, a character with a 3/4 BAB class (Mechanic, Mystic, etc) multiclasses into another 3/4 BAB class, their BAB remains at +0. Is this intentional? It doesn't make sense.

Untrained/Clever Improviser are a thing. A bit of forewarning from the GM wrt the kinds of enemies the campaign centers on should be expected and encouraged. I would contend that Thaumaturges aren't MAD in so much as they aren't a do-everything class. A case could be made for gating the class to initially 2ish starting Recall Knowledge skills, so that the free skill increases feel more useful, but it really depends on the kind of adventure you're participating in, considering how under-utilized free Lore skills are, IMHO.

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Lanathar wrote:
This highlights a potential flaw in the playtest - I am not sure how many people outside of PFS play without free archetype

My current group doesn't.

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Luigi Lizza wrote:

Also, I wouldn't use the Jatembean's theory to justify the ability to draw power from all traditions, because one could take that same argument to allow Druids to cast occult spells and oracles arcane spells, which is fine by me if that's someone's cup of tea, but it makes definitions kinda wibbly-wobbly for the sake of discussion. This, unless one makes the class uncommon and ties it to Jatembe's place in the setting.

You can kind of already do this in game through Magaambyan Attendant Archetype. Also, each Deity in the game grants access to out of tradition spells, as do the intersections of Witch Patrons and Lessons. It's hardly unbounded.

Ly'ualdre wrote:

John "Hellblazer" Constantine is an Occult Detective and Sorcerer from DC Comics who frequently battles against monsters, demons, and other dark entities. One of the tactics that he often employs in his work is wielding strange objects of power against the beings he fights against. He IS in fact a spellcaster and is capable of utilizing magic, being something akin to a Sorcerer with the Abyssal Bloodline as his body possessed Demon Blood in at some point. But, the comparisons everyone is pointing to is his use of occult objects and esoteric knowledge (that even other magic users don't know) in order to do what he does. That's a very simplified explanation of him.

So Class-wise, he would likely be a Thaumaturge with a Dedication in Sorcerer and maybe Wizard, as he does have learned knowledge of magic as well.

Witch seems like a better fit, imho, despite the familiar. Gaining power by trucking with higher powers seems to be his bailiwick.

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I hate to be that person, but,IMHO, a Key Ability is there to explain how a given class does what it does, not determine what it's best at. I interpret the Thaumaturge as someone that leans heavily on the courage of their convictions, right or wrong, and that translates well into relying on Charisma to get things done. Find Flaws is less about encyclopedic knowledge of creatures or keen observation, and more about trusting your working knowledge and beliefs of how things work. Hell, you could even use this class as written to represent the kind of character that uses facts and bluster to wrongfoot their opponents. Many of the class feats in the playtest suggest this style of gameplay as a core strategy, such that focusing on debuffing looks to be the optimum way to go.
EDIT: Now that I think about it, your entire schtick boils down to making Claims of Fact with regard to the creatures you encounter. It's basically persuasion.

Golurkcanfly wrote:
Rysky wrote:

So 4 key issues I've noticed with Find Flaws as I look it over.

1) Why am I penalized extra for (crit) failing my core ability that I'm inclined/supposed to use a lot? On a Crit Fail I've A) failed B) got wrong information and C) now I'm flat-footed. Why is that necessary?

Edit: I'm not opposed to Dubious Knowledge, I quite like the Feat, it's the flat-footed I take issue with.

Also there needs to be a baked in way for using Find Flaws against a group of similar creatures because otherwise there's too many issues:

2) Find Flaws is the core ability... and if I'm dissuaded from using it most of the time because it's a waste that's pretty bad.

3) Fighting a group of the same creatures and failing a check after making one/some not only feels bad but is nonsensical.
*rolls* Werewolf!
*rolls* Werewolf!
*rolls* That is obviously a Pomeranian with a hangnail.
*rolls* Werewolf!
This exact argument was made by one of the Designers, I think either Mark or Logan, in regards to why when you're sneaking there's just the one opposed Perception DC rather than all the NPCs making checks because one is bound to see you then.

4) Sympathetic Weakness is a feat tax, it's not something fun to work to or a powerup in feel, it's you feel bad till you get and then you have to take it or you'll feel bad after. Also the scope of the feat as is is entirely too vague.

The weird part with 1) is that you *know* the information is incorrect because you got flat-footed and can't use EA.

How often do you roll a crit-fail, tho?

Twin Weakness needs to be worded better. Do I double my weakness output? I can't tell. It giving me more damage more reliably makes sense, but I don't see a lot of support for dual-wielding in the playtest beyond this single class feat.

At the very least, Make SW available at a lower level, say 2nd. That way it's on par with similar class feats (Expanded Spellstrike comes to mind). Thaumaturge currently feels like a duelist, in that its bread and butter is dealing with singular threats, but giving it more mileage tackling hordes would make it better to play, especially in encounters with a lot of enemies that don't share/have overt weaknesses.

Just give me the option to play a Barathu, ideally with an archetype that lets me build Biotech, and I'll be happy beyond words.