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One of the biggest features of the Thaumaturge that stands out to me immediately is how focused this class is on identifying creatures, their weaknesses, and applying those weaknesses. This got me thinking about how to optimize on this, and holy cow did I find some fun stuff... So come with me on a magical journey through a combination of class and archetype feats that will leave you saying goodbye to Ranger Rick, and hello to Geralt of Rivia.
First, I will preface this concept by saying that obviously this build and idea works better with using Free Archetype (especially if your DM allows your Free Archetype to chain into a second archetype), freeing up your class feats for Thaumaturge options... but as you'll see in my feat list at the end, it's not that bad even just using CRB rules.
First lets start with the lvl 1 class ability "Find Flaws". This says that you RECALL KNOWLEDGE, using Charisma instead of whatever usual ability score; AND that you gain the additional effects of the ability AS WELL AS the "usual effects of Recall Knowledge". This tells me a few different things about the ability; but it all really boils down to one thought...
This thing stacks better than a Lego master builder.
Anything that applies to your rolls for "Recall Knowledge" as well as anything that applies to the effects on a successful "Recall Knowledge" ALL APPLY to the "Find Flaws" action.
If you succeed, or get a crit success, on "Find Flaws" you can then proceed to use Esoteric Antithesis as a free action. Esoteric Antithesis allows you to either cause your weapon attacks to deal a type of damage that matches the creatures weakness (if the creature has a weakness, and that weakness is equal or higher than 2 + 1/2 your level) OR it allows you to cause your weapon attacks to deal damage that the creature BECOMES weak to, with a weakness equal to 2 + 1/2 your level (this weakness only applies to attacks from you).
If you DONT get a success, or crit success, this ability costs an action to use
So obviously, using the "Find Flaws" ability, the goal (like all things in this game) is to get a Critical Success. So how do we do that? By adding as many additional bonuses to our possible knowledge scores as we can. Stacking bonuses in this system are few and far between, by design, but there are a few fabulous options hidden among some odd places.
Allow me to introduce, the Pathfinder Agent archetype, and it's older brother, the Scrollmaster Archetype. They are your new best friends.
The first thing you need to know is this: The Scrollmaster archetype falls under a category of very select archetypes that are allowed to be taken in conjunction with other archetypes, without having met a specific number of archetype feats first. In this case specifically, you can take Scrollmaster at the same time as Pathfinder Agent. What this means in layman's terms is that you could technically take the Pathfinder Agent Dedication, and then next class feat / free archetype feat IMMEDIATELY take Scrollmaster Dedication (assuming you met its other requirements).
Let's start with Pathfinder Agent.
Now, the Dedication itself is nothing to write home about, what we are really here for is two feats. One is a skill feat called Thorough Reports. The other is an archetype feat called Discerning Strike.
Thorough Reports allows you to "keep track of each type of creature you successfully identify with Recall Knowledge". When you attempt to Recall Knowledge against a creature you have previously identified, you gain a +2 circumstance bonus to the roll, and learn an additional fact about such creatures on a success.
So why is this helpful? Well, by default, "Find Flaws" only applies to the creature you used it on, and you can only have it applied to one creature at a time... so even if there are 12 of the exact same creature fighting your party, you are going to have to re-apply Find Flaws against each creature as you go. Since you are spending an action on each creature applying Find Flaws, you obviously want to get that success/crit to allow for the free action bonus damage, so what better way to attempt to get that than getting a bonus on Recall Knowledge rolls to creatures you've already "Recall Knowledge"ed?
But it gets better... Discerning Strike is a Single Action attack that you can make against a target you have successfully identified with Recall Knowledge during this combat. Remember, "Find Flaws" counts as Recall Knowledge.
If you hit with Discerning Strike, you deal an extra 1d6 precision damage. In addition, if you have succeeded on a Recall Knowledge check against the target during this combat and their creature type was previously recorded using Thorough Reports, you also deal 1 point of persistent bleed damage. The creature is then temporarily immune to Discerning Strike for 1 day.
Now, because you've succeeded at identifying the creature (you DID succeed, didn't you?) you now are able to identify its weaknesses, apply bonus damage for a free action, and then with your follow-up action make a Strike that deals additional damage on top, as well as a Bleed effect.
And folks, the fun doesn't BEGIN to stop there.
Moving along to the Scrollmaster Dedication.
You gain some fun thematic abilities, allowing you to remember various facts for extended periods of time and so on... and then one little sentence is thrown in at the end.
"If you have the Thorough Reports feat and have expert proficiency in the skill you’re using to Recall Knowledge, your circumstance bonus to Recall Knowledge about creatures from that feat increases to +4."
AMAZING. So now, our bonus to identifying creatures we've already identified goes up to +4. Crits are looking easier by the minute.
But wait, there's more! Within the Scrollmaster archetype lies another feat, just begging to be thrown on the pile... Bestiary Scholar.
Requiring only Level 10, and a Master proficiency in ONE Knowledge skill (Arcana, Crafting, Nature, Occultism, or Religion) you can get this feat that adds the following:
"When you gain this feat, choose one of the following skills in which you have attained master proficiency: Arcana, Crafting, Nature, Occultism, or Religion. You can use the chosen skill to Recall Knowledge to identify any creature normally identifiable by any of the above skills. In addition, when you critically succeed at identifying a creature, you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack roll or saving throw against that creature."
That's right... all those Recall Knowledge's you've been doing (using your CHA score no less!) now can be done using a SINGLE KNOWLEDGE SKILL.
And then, just for fun, when you critically succeed, you get an extra bonus against that creature (either on an attack roll, or a saving throw).
Now here's what particularly interesting about all of these feats (especially that last one)... Every single one of them gives a CIRCUMSTANCE BONUS on things they boost.
This is important looking back at the goal of this post: Stacking Bonuses.
Bonuses of the same type don't stack, you simply use the highest bonus. However, bonuses of different types DO stack.
Now, let's take a look at a lvl 2 feat for the Thaumaturge himself (thats right, we haven't even taken anything from the core class yet, and we are already making the Outwit Monster Hunter Rangers and Lore Bards look like elementary school children).
Esoteric Warden
Level 2 class feat, Thaumaturge
When you Find Flaws and succeed at your Recall Knowledge check, in addition to the normal effects, you gain a +1 status bonus to your AC against the creature’s next attack and a +1 status bonus to your next saving throw against the creature. These bonuses increase to +2 on a critical success. You can gain these bonuses only once per day against a particular creature.
Hmmm... that's interesting. At first glance this appears to be a very similar feat as Bestiary Scholar, until you look at the bonus type. That's right, the Esoteric Warden feat gives a STATUS bonus, whereas Bestiary Scholar gives a CIRCUMSTANCE bonus... stacks on stacks on stacks.
So, let's recap.
By taking the following feats:
Pathfinder Agent Dedication (archetype feat)
Thorough Reports (archetype skill feat)
Discerning Strike (archetype feat)
Scrollmaster Dedication (archetype feat)
Bestiary Scholar (archetype feat)
Esoteric Warden (class feat)
You gain the following chain reaction:
* Use the "Find Flaws" ability on an enemy you have identified previously, this counts as the Recall Knowledge action.
* You gain a +4 circumstance bonus to the Recall Knowledge roll.
* This Recall Knowledge roll can be made with your CHA stat, using whatever Knowledge skill you have at Master (whichever you chose for Bestiary Scholar)
* On a success you gain a +1 status bonus to AC against that creatures next attack, a +1 status bonus to your next saving throw against that creature, and a free action application of your Esoteric Antithesis.
* On a crit success, boost the success bonuses by +1 (to +2 total), AND you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your next attack or saving throw against that creature (the save bonuses stack for a total +3).
*Lastly, on your next action, use Discerning Strike (works with either melee or ranged) to deal an extra 1d6 precision damage, and 1 persistent bleed, ON TOP of the extra weakness damage you will be dealing from Esoteric Antithesis
And after all that... you still have a whole other action left in your turn.
Obviously, this build concept (if you can call it that) relies heavily on taking archetype feats. BUT, if your character goal is to be the Murder Pokedex for monsters, it's actually not too bad all things considered, leaving the latter half of your character build completely open for high level class feats and other shenanigans.
Lvl 1: whatever feat you want
Lvl 2: Esoteric Warden
Lvl 4: Pathfinder Agent Dedication
Lvl 4 skill feat: Thorough Reports
Lvl 6: Scrollmaster Dedication
Lvl 8: Discerning Strike
Lvl 10: Bestiary Scholar
Lemme know what you guys think :D
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Loving it! I also wondered how well this will work, so if anyone gets a chance to play it, let me know.
1014) With a stroke of a finger, the playtest was amended. Gone were the options and stacking exploits removed. The Pathfinding Scrollmaturge was defeated.
Oh. Wrong thread. But very nice finds. Perhaps they’ll survive the final version. ;p
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Wow- the ability to get all of your recalls down from six skills to two (Society being the odd one out) is huge- that leaves the class with enough room to take skills they want, rather than just ones required for it to succeed on combat checks.
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Realistically Bestiary scholar should be added as an option in the Thaumaturge list. Don’t people think? Or something similar
It is very similar to Master Monster Hunter for Ranger - and the same level
This build is still fun for the other stacking boosts. But this detective work has mainly uncovered something that I would suggest should be part of the core package
It has already been noted how hard succeeding these recall rolls is (especially against unique foes) . But splitting across multiple skills that you need to increase
If not this they need more bonus skill increases. Just something to aid their core mechanic more
Damn this is really good and fun. Especially Bestiary Scholar cutting down on your skill increases is amazing.
That said this speaks for Thaumaturge getting a special Lore Skill as a baseline Feature that they use to recall knowlegde. Because keeping up 6 skills to be able to use your Main class Feature is a pretty hefty flaw, even if you start trained in them.
The only downside of the build is that you have to already have that creature identified. Which could be much less effective in campaigns where enemies dont repeat often. Or lead to a chain reaction in a fight where if you dont manage to identify the first one, your Bonus for identifying the second one is lost.
These baseline ones scale slowly (being -4 for a large part of the game). So this only works if the GM interprets using lore as the check being 4 or more points easier. I think Luis on KD has suggested 2 on a podcast
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Several users over on the PF2E reddit pointed out that the Lantern implement from the base class would add another +1 status bonus to the Recall Knowledge roll, further boosting your chances of a crit.
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Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover would also be a pretty big deal to this, for characters that have Access to it.
Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover would also be a pretty big deal to this, for characters that have Access to it.
That's very true! Though you would absolutely want to make sure that one of the Knowledges you choose for that feat matches with whatever Knowledge you choose for Bestiary Scholar. (Not a big deal, just something to make sure you dont just randomly choose while picking feats).
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I did a very similar know-it-all Investigator build several months ago. Seems that most everything is there.
Note that if you get Loremaster Etude, either with Bard MC Dedication or Loremaster Dedication, your RK gets even better when it really matters.
The main problem is that, before lvl 10, the build is not that reliable because of the rule that failed RK means no more attempts. And after lvl 10, you will critically RK a lot, which is pretty unbalanced IMO.
But the problem lies with RK. The Thaumaturge's reliance on RK only exacerbates it.
BTW Forensic Acumen should help get great value from Thorough Reports.
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Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover would also be a pretty big deal to this, for characters that have Access to it.
A thaumaturge unfortunately cannot use Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover. That feat can only be used when you gain no information from a Recall Knowledge check, which only happens when you non-critically fail. A thaumaturge gets Dubious Knowledge at level 1, and Dubious Knowledge is not an optional thing. If you have it, you gain information when you non-critically fail, so you never qualify for the trigger of Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover.
Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover would also be a pretty big deal to this, for characters that have Access to it.A thaumaturge unfortunately cannot use Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover. That feat can only be used when you gain no information from a Recall Knowledge check, which only happens when you non-critically fail. A thaumaturge gets Dubious Knowledge at level 1, and Dubious Knowledge is not an optional thing. If you have it, you gain information when you non-critically fail, so you never qualify for the trigger of Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover.
That is a detail that seems to be right that I totally overlooked.
I did a very similar know-it-all Investigator build several months ago. Seems that most everything is there.
Note that if you get Loremaster Etude, either with Bard MC Dedication or Loremaster Dedication, your RK gets even better when it really matters.
The main problem is that, before lvl 10, the build is not that reliable because of the rule that failed RK means no more attempts. And after lvl 10, you will critically RK a lot, which is pretty unbalanced IMO.
But the problem lies with RK. The Thaumaturge's reliance on RK only exacerbates it.
BTW Forensic Acumen should help get great value from Thorough Reports.
Loremaster's Etude absolutely would assist this build, as would a few other ancestry specific option's I've seen people mention (Nanite Surge and Consistent Surge from Android ancestry, and Halfling Luck and Incredible Luck from Halfling ancestry).
As for Forensic Acumen, I don't believe it would work in conjunction with Find Flaws and so I left it out of the build.
Forensic Acumen says you have to perform a forensic examination on a body, as described under Recall Knowledge in the Medicine skill. If you succeed, you can attempt an immediate check to Recall Knowledge.
Neither the initial forensic exam, nor the follow up RK are part of Find Flaws, they are simply RK checks on their own.
Now, while having a character who is amazing at RK is absolutely the end result on this build, the goal was to find as many RK bonuses that could fit into a single action. Otherwise, I would have also included things like Recognize Threat from Pathfinder Agent, or True Hypercognition from several different sources. These sorts of feats could ABSOLUTELY be added to the build to achieve a god among others at RK, but they dont apply to the same actions.
Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover would also be a pretty big deal to this, for characters that have Access to it.A thaumaturge unfortunately cannot use Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover. That feat can only be used when you gain no information from a Recall Knowledge check, which only happens when you non-critically fail. A thaumaturge gets Dubious Knowledge at level 1, and Dubious Knowledge is not an optional thing. If you have it, you gain information when you non-critically fail, so you never qualify for the trigger of Kreighton's Cognitive Crossover.
THAT... is a very weird fringe case lol. By being better at knowledge rolls, he can't take an ability that makes him better at knowledge rolls. I wonder if Paizo has discovered and/or addressed this issue, as Dubious Knowledge is an easy enough common skill feat to acquire from Backgrounds, and with the addition of adding it to your character automatically now precludes you from picking and using certain things.
I 100% agree with the call to add Dubious Knowledge to the Thaumaturge class, it's the interaction with Kreighton's (which is a much newer feat and thus things from the CRB can't possibly account for every future possibility) that is the real problem. Perhaps Kreighton's could be erratta'd to say that it triggers on a failed knowledge check, and not just on a check that results in no information.
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I 100% agree with the call to add Dubious Knowledge to the Thaumaturge class
I'd rather see Dubious Knowledge removed and Trick Magic Item put in it's place. I don't like the feat and worse, I can't just ignore it as you can't turn it off. :P