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I'll preface this by saying that I don't think this is the class for me. It's very flavourful, and very well designed, but it's just not my sort of flavour. But I would still like to put in my input for others sake, both as someone who may GM for one, and for those who may love the class!!
Concerns
- Stat usage is something that might be looked at. Charisma being a key stat and being very important to the class (recall knowledge not working is a big bummer for this class, need that cha as high as possible, as well as things like class DC) means that the class will be one behind in the early levels. It might even be as high as two behind in later levels, depending on the apex item chosen, I'm not sure which stat is the right choice here. That being said, this is relatively minor, just something to consider when adding feedback and playtesting.
- Recall knowledge being a huge part of the class presents a few problems to me. Others may not be in the same boat, but I really hate dubious knowledge as a gm. Just adds more work and I'm bad at it, I would prefer my players don't take it. It being forced in is kind of annoying. Recall knowledge being so important to the combat of the class means that one almost has to spend all of their skill increases in nature/religion/occult/arcane, and even then a thaumaturge might run into something that can only be identified with society or crafting or another skill they haven't increased. So not only does it feel like their skill increases are forced on them, but even spending all increases on those RK skills they still may not be able to use their main class feature on enemies. Lastly, and this may be my own confusion but I'm sure others could get caught on it as well - a failed recall knowledge means the character can't recall knowledge anymore. Isn't that a big deal or am I missing something?
- This one is more personal and I honestly have yet to find someone who feels the same way, so feel free to disregard. But I can't stand playing classes who are powerless when you take away their toys, and Thaumaturge seems to maybe be the prime example of this. I know there is a feat to call ones implement, but a mile isn't super far, and bags of holding are everywhere. And what if they're destroyed? Also take away their esoterica and you have a similar problem. I would personally love a feat, maybe a higher level one with the prerequisite of Call Implement, that allows the Thaumaturge to call their stuff from anywhere, even another plane, and rebuild it if it's destroyed. But again that's just me.
Things I love
- Feats for making both scrolls and talisman is very cool. Two pools of objects to be able to make (and use thaumaturge DC, awesome) means a ton of variety for the class, and only if one wants it.
- All the tools for making a supernatural hunter are there. I couldn't think of anything else a class like this could want, really knocked it out of the park here.
- A lot of variety in playstyle. The more I think about it, the more builds one could make. Could make a gish with scrolls and wand, a damage support, healer, single target damage dealer, even a bit of a tank.
I really like the implements presented so far.
I'm a bit iffy on Lantern - I don't think I could ever justify it as my first implement, but it would be a very useful second implement. But at the same time... the opportunity cost of the Adept benefit feels significant compared to most of the other options. It's easy to get a second implement with low combat utility, but the Adept benefit is fairly narrow right now, only useful against a specific subset of creatures.
The other four implements are all wonderful and have clear benefits and goals for your playstyle. I'm somewhat concerned that the Chalice Adept benefit requires taking a critical hit or bleed though to activate.
I could not disagree more about the Lantern. A bonus to your schtick all the time, Recall Knowledges, that also buffs any other recall based characters in the party that also gives you automatic check for hazards, haunts and secrets? Dope.
The other implements are reasonably good, with my personal exception of the Chalice. I see nothing that it does that you couldn't get as a non-multi classed Thaumaturge by training Medicine. The Temp HP is too short lived to truly be useful, and costs an action each turn. The Healing is decent, but time gated exactly like every other out of combat heal, but you can only treat one person at a time.
I'd much rather take the Lantern and your choice of the other 3 than the Chalice and anything else.
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The other implements are reasonably good, with my personal exception of the Chalice. I see nothing that it does that you couldn't get as a non-multi classed Thaumaturge by training Medicine. The Temp HP is too short lived to truly be useful, and costs an action each turn. The Healing is decent, but time gated exactly like every other out of combat heal, but you can only treat one person at a time.
Okay but the Chalice refills without you having to do anything, so a Thaumaturge with the Chalice can do another Exploration activity (including Medicine related healing) and let someone drink from the chalice during a 10 minute rest. Or if the Medicine is good enough it's on hand as an extra bit of emergency healing that can recharge itself. As for the THP, it may not be much, but that little bit could be the difference between a hit downing you or not, and since I believe THP is still lost first it fading next round shouldn't really mean that much if you're expecting to get hit anyways. It seems to me to be more of a thing you do to get someone out of harm's way rather than something you do every round, though if you don't really have a better use for your third action might as well keep some THP up.
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Thematically this might be my favourite pathfinder class yet.
As the theme of the class is on point and I don't think there is anyhing I would like to change (I really apreciate how hard they went on some class feat descriptions), I will only talk about mechanics.
Inventor taught me that starting at 16 on your to hit stat can work if the rest of the class compensates for it. The plain damage boost seems to be compensating for the hand you loose to use your implements, so I will only count the weaknesses. 2 + half level or easy access to weaknesses seems like fair damage boost, but I think that the weapon damage should be either partially or totally converted to [weakness] damage at some point. I feel they will have some problems punching through resistances and as they are putting all their eggs in the same basket I fear the class will suffer from very polarizing encounters.
No master in fort saves is a little bit weird too, at least comparing the class to other martial characters.
The class also haves the same problems with apex items than playtest summoner and inventor had. I don't think that a level 17 class feature that goes "Apex items give you the same stat increase to either STR, DEX or CHA, (player choice, but can't choose the same stat as the apex item)" could work. If you are going to do this, the class that revolves around using magic trinkets is the best choice I think.
I would also love to see at level 3 a class feature to select a magic tradition skill and become expert in it, automatically improving it to master and legendary at levels 7 and 15 respectively. If you can't recall knowledge the class will have a hard time in combat, and with the plentiful amount of skills that are used to recall knowledge I think this will be needed (would also make improving your crafting skill more justifiable).
Pact feats are awesome, probably my favourite class feats from the thaumaturge. They are both mechanically impactful and defining at a character level, would love to see more of them when the book gets released.
I also really like that there are no must pick feats this time around, everything looks cool and balanced at first glance.
Using crossbows was mentioned somewhere in the weapon implement section, but the class will have a hard time reloading hand crossbows with most other second implements. Adding a line in the weapon implement description to allow you to reload your crossbow with your other hand holding an implement would help.
I'm pretty sold on most of the implements. Wand seems like it would be a great candidate to be a variable action swiss army knife, rather than just a ranged blast. If its theme is sort of collecting the ambient magic around it I think it makes sense for it to be a bit of a toolkit. The others all seem solid, and they have interesting niches, and I think any level 1 Thaumaturge would have fun with them.
Chalice, though, seems the weakest of the bunch. Its rate is low, but I don't know how you'd increase it without it becoming too much. I think the nature of it being an always on ability that pretty explicitly doesn't use focus points makes it hard to balance.
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Ont that note, I know that the class is supposed to have no magic, and no focus spells, but it really doesn't sit well with me after reading through it for the class to have absolutely no focus spells. Ranger gets warden spells, Monks get their ki, Champions get focus spells. Thaumaturge is less mystically inclined than any of those? That's incongruous to me.
It also seems to restrict its design space just a little. I'm not thinking it needs, like, focus cantrips or whatever, but a space for abilities that can be big encounter abilities, or things that fill in that "resonance" theme from the 1e Occultist could be really interesting.
Totally get that that isn't the vision, but man would I love to plop a focus point into an implement and supercharge it for a round.
I have decided to make a Chalice Thaumaturge. Level 3, for the current game. I see a lot of people saying it feels weak, but looking at it I think it will put me on similar level of the Barbarian. A bit less to hit, but better ac and comparable hp assuming I don't get one shot. I also like how I don't need to identify someone for it to be useful.
I will see how it plays out.
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Lets see...
Recall with Cha? Good! 6 skills needed to ID whatever foes you might meet and it's not a Int class... Bad.
Esoteric Antithesis seem interesting but I think it might feel bad when the weakness is higher than granted by the feature as you spent an action for nothing.
Dubious Knowledge... Boy, I loathe that feat and now it's attached to a class and I can't get rid of it or turn it off... great... :P
Implements:
Amulets seem good with a reaction to pass around resistances you can get at 1st.
Chalice is an action to get temp hp every round and can heal 1/10 min without any action from the user to recharge. Adept requires getting a specific type of crit and/or persistent damage which seems pointlessly difficult for the only benefit of an entire upgrade. Paragon is fine.
Lantern has good benefits that pair well with you basic shtick of recall and detection.
Wands do OKish damage at pretty good to great range and eventually getting burst damage.
Weapon gives an improved version of Attack of Opportunity but only after Esoteric Antithesis AND it works with a ranged weapon [only 10' though] with upgrades improving it.
Overall they all need a hand [or more] and you get 3 so that's a lot of hands... Maybe I'll need to take Juggle skill feat so I can wield them all at once. ;)
Notable Feats:
Esoteric Lore, with luck, might get you some Recall checks and if you're lucky, maybe with a better DC. Too bad it's Int when you aren't looking at a creature. :P
Haunting Cunning is pretty niche.
Root to Life is pretty much a buffed Stabilize, though it being LOS IS impressive.
Scroll Thaumaturgy good!
Call Implement another niche one: how often are you disarmed or your stuff is stolen?
Talisman Esoterica [and the follow ups] is pretty much a copy/paste from the dedication: I don't like it for the same reasons.
Pack of Fey Glamour has lots of flavor but how often do you need an illusory disguise each day let alone the permanent disguise?
One More Activation is another interesting but it will depend on what you have that has limited activations.
Turn Away Misfortune really depends on how often you get misfortune spells cast on you.
Scroll Esoterica and the follow ups all kinds of good.
Know it all buff something you're going to do anyway.
Thaumaturges Investiture for those that need to invest 20 items at once...
I'll stop at 10th level
Overall they all need a hand [or more] and you get 3 so that's a lot of hands... Maybe I'll need to take Juggle skill feat so I can wield them all at once. ;)
Level 7 feature lets you juggle implements. Missed that one at first, is pretty cool.
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Level 7 feature lets you juggle implements. Missed that one at first, is pretty cool.
Overall they all need a hand [or more] and you get 3 so that's a lot of hands... Maybe I'll need to take Juggle skill feat so I can wield them all at once. ;)
Yep, I noticed that. I just want to see where people are stowing a lit torch, a bastard sword and/or an amphora full of liquid as a free action. ;)
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My chalice is a sippy cup. We are good to go.
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Just to note, I adore Dubious Knowledge, and was delighted to see it being free on this class! :D