An ember staff and a bit of UMD skill could do it. Or celestial obedience (Valani), but not until 12th level.
For a low level means you'll need to step outside feats and items. An alternate racial feature for gnomes, pyromaniac, gives them produce flame as a SLA from level 1. Or take the evangelist prestige class worshipping Sarenrae and the diverse obedience feat to get it as a SLA at character level 7.
Why? It's a traditionally druidic spell (exclusively) in the d20 universe, which PF1 still is a part of.
Sorcerers do have the spark cantrip if you're just looking for a way to magically light up your pipe, and plenty of other fire spells for the rest.
What does Produce Flame do that you're interested in, specifically ? There might be alternatives.
As is some other classes can gain access to it, if in a limited way, but that's not helpful to you.
Some prestige classes can help, with Magaambyan Arcanist coming to mind with its blend of arcane and duridic magic.
There's a few more other ways, but baseline Sorcerer seems out of luck.
If Elemental (fire) is your bloodline your GM might be open to negotiating ProduceF replacing your first bloodline spell, maybe ? Be nice to them either way.
Or just grab a wand and work on your UMD, I guess. 4th is a bit early for that though.
Sorcerers have the option of learning non-standard spells that don't appear on the wizard/sorcerer list (and can even be from other lists) but this is subject to GM discretion. See the rules on page 220 of the Core Rulebook (under "Sorcerers and Bards" header: Adding Spells to a Sorcerer or Bard's Repertoire).
If you don' specifically need Produce Flame but want a spell that does something similar (ranged touch attack/touch attack), you could always dabble with the Words of Power magic subsystem and take the Experimental Spellcaster feat.
Would have loved the option to get spells from additional classes(with wizard/sorcerer list) based on bloodline. Examples would be Cleric for celestial, Druid for fey, Psychic for psychic, etc.
Too bad Expanded Arcana doesn't let you pick spells from other classes.
Also too bad the Oracle can't get spells from other classes that fit it's mystery.
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would a Ring of Spell Knowledge do it for you?
It would take a Type II to give you the ability to cast Produce Flame as a 2nd level Sorcerer spell...
You would need to make a DC 20 Spellcraft check to teach the spell to the ring, and maybe a scroll of the spell... so - a 25 gp scroll, a 6000 gp ring and a good skill check should do it for you.
Ring of Spell Knowledge note that in the last paragraph, "Arcane Spells that do not appear..." implies only arcane spells can be used in the ring.
Yes, that's the only sensible way of reading the item. However, almost every spell in the game can be cast as an arcane spell (over 95%). For example a Spell Sage Wizard or a Skald with Expanded Spell Kenning could cast Produce Flame as an arcane spell, making a Ring of Spell Knowledge II with Produce Flame in it possible.
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There is a 3.5 Feat that would give you Produce Flame and the early rules for Pathfinder do allow for Conversion of the feat.
For ease, I've done the converting of the Prerequisites. However, in most Pathfinder Society Play, I've not seen too many GM's allow feats from 3.5
The Domain you'd be looking for is Fire which would mean you'd have to Worship Asmodeus or Sarenrae in the Pathfinder campaign setting.
If it is Society Play, leaves just Sarenrae as your choice. [Unless they started allowing PC's to play evil recently when I wasn't looking XD]
Arcane Disciple
( Complete Divine, p. 79)
[General]
Choose a deity, and then select a domain available to clerics of that deity. You can learn to cast the spells associated with that domain as arcane spells.
Prerequisite
Knowledge (religion) 1 ranks, Spellcraft 1 ranks, able to cast arcane spells, alignment matches your deity's alignment,
Benefit
Add the chosen domain's spells to your class list of arcane spells. If you have arcane spellcasting ability from more than one class, you must pick which arcane spellcasting ability this feat applies to. Once chosen, this decision cannot be changed for that feat. You may learn these spells as normal for your class; however, you use Wisdom (rather than the normal ability for your spellcasting) when determining the save DC for the spell. In addition, you must have a Wisdom score equal to 10 + the spell's level in order to prepare or cast a spell gained from this feat. Each day, you may prepare (or cast, if you cast spells without preparation) a maximum of one of these domains spells of each level.
Special
You can take this feat more than once. Each time, you must select a different domain available to the same deity you chose the first time you selected the feat. For example, a character who chose Heironeous and the Good domain with his first selection could choose Law or War with successive selections of the same feat. He couldn't choose Protection, since that domain isn't available to clerics of Heironeous.
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There is a 3.5 Feat that would give you Produce Flame and the early rules for Pathfinder do allow for Conversion of the feat.
For ease, I've done the converting of the Prerequisites. However, in most Pathfinder Society Play, I've not seen too many GM's allow feats from 3.5
...I haven't seen any PF Org Play with 3.5 feats. Today it is not allowed as the Guide directs participants otherwise.
Neither have I after moving out of Alaska :-) But, who knows I've seen games played in the society style but not actually for Society play (They get no benefits from going to other Society locations with said characters)
This is getting into Org Play territory rather than Rules forum, I'd direct further chat there.
Since the OP was only interested in Produce Flame since they "just like the damage output of Pro flame for a first level spell", Ring of Spell Knowledge (which makes it at least a 2nd level spell) is probably not an attractive option anyway.
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About the only option I can think of is mythic options or the halcyon archetype/prestige class for arcanist which probably doesn't get that spell and aren't likely to be allowed in PFS. Strangely divine casters seem to be getting more and more options to let them dabble in arcane spells or arcane effects (cough hellfire ray cough) but people are still very strict on preventing it go the other way. I've seen a lot of threads on arcane caster of healing spells (my personal interest) and they all contained argument after argument of it stepping on the cleric niche, of it being "too complex" for arcane caster etc, etc.
About the only option I can think of is mythic options or the halcyon archetype/prestige class for arcanist which probably doesn't get that spell and aren't likely to be allowed in PFS. Strangely divine casters seem to be getting more and more options to let them dabble in arcane spells or arcane effects (cough hellfire ray cough) but people are still very strict on preventing it go the other way. I've seen a lot of threads on arcane caster of healing spells (my personal interest) and they all contained argument after argument of it stepping on the cleric niche, of it being "too complex" for arcane caster etc, etc.
The 'too complex' thing... that's... just ridiculous. From a setting and/or roleplay perspective, the arcane traditions deal directly with manipulating the forces of magic. They shape it into effects through spells and imbue it into objects. It would be the equivalent of a cook MAKING a loaf of bread from scratch.
Divine casters get a magical giant or concept to just give them their spells by being in relative favor of the cosmological concept handing out power. Setting-wise, they would know the absolute least about magical workings. They are somebody who BUYS or BORROWS (WITHOUT THE INTENT TO RETURN) the finished loaf of bread rather than making it... with the exception of those that serve a god of magic, maybe.
From a game mechanics standpoint, the divine casters already have a better chassis upon which to hang everything else, better armors and weapons, better base attack and saves and hit points and maybe skill points as well. Why wouldn't they have a more narrow spell list?
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This is what puzzled me clerics get full bab, armour, more hp, full casting yet when I was searching every thread was arguing that giving arcane casters access to divine spells especially healing would . . . Honestly I've been in several groups where NO ONE wanted to play a cleric (for a number of reasons) and having the wizard able to heal would have been happily received yet suggest it and you get . . .
1) Already so powerful don't need more.
2) Stepping on Clerics niche.
3) Too complex for arcane casters to understand.
4) Healing magic is naturally opposed to arcane practices and shouldn't be given to arcane casters.
and more all arguing or trying to create reasons an arcane caster should not be able to heal, use other divine spells. Yet no one seemed bothered that damaging aoe/single target and area control spells have been steadily creeping into the clerics list several of which are more powerful than an equivilent arcane spell.
Of course I admit I am the sort who prefers spells are universal, magic source is flavour (arcane, demonic, divine). None of this primal, psyhic, occult, etc. magic is magic whether born in people, granted by otherworldly powers or due to being half X.
. . . all arguing or trying to create reasons an arcane caster should not be able to heal, use other divine spells. Yet no one seemed bothered that damaging aoe/single target and area control spells have been steadily creeping into the clerics list several of which are more powerful than an equivilent arcane spell.
I have a simple reason why they should. Because healing is a natural process. It already happens without conscious thought on your part... so if a wizard or sorcerer or witch or whatnot researched a transmutation spell that made your natural healing work faster for a short duration (think fast healing 1 for x number of rounds... kind of like the wizard spell celestial healing now that I think about it...) and it leaves you hungry afterwards it would make sense. If you want to get into it, they could research creatures that do have regeneration or fast healing and then mimic it alchemically somehow. Thematically, it works.
I remember the days when healing spells were in the necromancy school...
Of course I admit I am the sort who prefers spells are universal, magic source is flavour (arcane, demonic, divine). None of this primal, psyhic, occult, etc. magic is magic whether born in people, granted by otherworldly powers or due to being half X.
And that makes sense to me. Magic as a force. It just is, like gravity and light... and if you study it enough you learn to manipulate it in some ways, but there's always more to learn. And some beings get a bit of a natural hack for it because they are already swimming in it because their existence is not exactly our three and a half dimensional existence...
Oh well.
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About the only option I can think of is mythic options or the halcyon archetype/prestige class for arcanist which probably doesn't get that spell and aren't likely to be allowed in PFS. Strangely divine casters seem to be getting more and more options to let them dabble in arcane spells or arcane effects (cough hellfire ray cough) but people are still very strict on preventing it go the other way. I've seen a lot of threads on arcane caster of healing spells (my personal interest) and they all contained argument after argument of it stepping on the cleric niche, of it being "too complex" for arcane caster etc, etc.You always have to remember....
#1 Spellcasting is overall the most powerful option
#2 Wizards have the best spell listArcane classes absolutely should not get default access to healing spells.
But TBH wands of CLW or infernal healing pretty much cover 90% of a party's healing needs.
Which is something I also see often "You only need a wand of cure light wounds" ok fine if I "Only" need that why are you so opposed to letting my wizard choose to take a sub-optimal choice of healing spells if that's what I want to roleplay my character? Clerics have better hp, full armour, no somatic failure, weapon usage over the wizard. They have area control e.g blade barrier, direct damage e.g. distruction, aoe damage e.g. earthquake, duplication ability miracle (no material component for theirs), healing, creation e.g create food and drink, combat utility e.g. dimensional lock, spying e.g. scrying, utility e.g. summon ship, travel e.g. gate.
No one objected when they got all this stuff, all I want is the option to do some healing with my wizard which a lot of the time is considered something you can do better with a wand of cure light wounds. Yet everyone jumps down your throat when you suggest it.
No part of your post makes sense.
First, Wizards already have a superior alternative to using wands of CLW, namely wands of Infernal Healing.
Second, the Wizard spell list is miles ahead of the Cleric's. If you can't see that, maybe the problem isn't the spell list, but rather you.
Third, what's with the "No one objected when they got all this stuff" - do you know what every single player input in the PF playtest said? Do you have a mind-reading device that tells you what every single player's reaction to the Cleric class is? Because if not, your statement is pure bull s$**.
Fourth, if you want healing on an arcane caster so much, why don't you play a Witch?
You know to know the truth why people really shut down your complaints? It's because what you want already exists, and in reality you're just lamenting how exactly it's done. I also don't feal fast healing 1 requiring evil components is a valid response for divine casters still being the main healer option with others getting bits and pieces.
of it being "too complex" for arcane caster
Link please. Because that sound's utterly ridiculous.
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No part of your post makes sense.
I mean... I get her post. Divine classes get the good healing. Wizards and sorcerers get a backdoor. Now whether you agree or not if it is enough is another matter. You, Derklord, think it's enough. Senko thinks it isn't. You both made that clear. So the post does make sense.
First, Wizards already have a superior alternative to using wands of CLW, namely wands of Infernal Healing.
You're right. A wand of celestial healing or infernal healing is significantly more effective out of combat than a wand of cure light wounds. As an arcane caster, it heals more and you don't have to UMD it. In combat, however, it's slow and won't do what you need if you're in a position to need that healing in combat.
But it is what it is.
Second, the Wizard spell list is miles ahead of the Cleric's. If you can't see that, maybe the problem isn't the spell list, but rather you.
The wizard does have a lot of effective spells. You're not wrong. And yet you're glossing over the fact that the bulk of the divine classes just get their spells. They don't study. They don't hunt them down. They don't research them. They just get them.
Depending on how a storyteller spins it, an arcane caster might not ever reach the heights of what divine casters can right out of the box. The sorcerer has the other problem. S/he can pick up whatever they want, but they don't swap out every spell every day like the cleric or druid can... they just swap one a level.
It's not the most powerful argument, but it is definitely something to consider before...
Third, what's with the "No one objected when they got all this stuff" - do you know what every single player input in the PF playtest said? Do you have a mind-reading device that tells you what every single player's reaction to the Cleric class is? Because if not, your statement is pure bull s!$&.
... resorting to a bit of saltiness.
I use a lot of salty language with friends that I wouldn't use in front of strangers. Let's not resort to the obvious swears cleverly masked. Let's think of a posting board as an area filled with strangers because anybody can casually browse said boards.
Now, no, nobody has access to all the feedback except the ones who compile it. But power creep in additional splatbooks is a thing across multiple editions of d&d and pathfinder is a derivative of that... and models it pretty well so, there you go. Additional books HAVE been put out. Power Creep IS observably present in some of them. And NOBODY is happy with Everything All the Time.
I'm pretty sure some hated new ideas. Some loved them. Some were indifferent... because that's pretty standard. But the designers still put out splats to 1) give players more options and 2) make money selling books. This is the direction the game went. CoDzilla is still a thing. Most 9/9 arcane casters are still top tier. So... whatever. You could always argue that some issues with the game are legacy issues because classes didn't change enough for some and too much for others... and I forget which things got added and subtracted and mutated from 3.5 to Pathfinder because I get forgetful... I also don't play it exclusively so... take me with a grain of salt.
Fourth, if you want healing on an arcane caster so much, why don't you play a Witch?
That is a fair argument... enough so that third party were putting out evangelical arcane casters and/or white witches from the get go. They got to it before Paizo because they were positioned well. They had 3.5 stuff to adapt, and they did one way or another. And eventually Paizo put the witch class out. But lots of people value core or they don't want to go afield to the 3rd party stuff for one reason or another so... I don't know. I have no problem borrowing from 3rd party. I do however reserve the right to pick and choose when I run a game and acknowledge that my storyteller can do the same when I play.
I really like the hybrid class that the witch is. Then again I do kind of like 4 Winds hedge witch which is a divine caster that gets a little arcane based on it's tradition... but that's neither here nor there.
If options like the faith magic discovery weren't such garbage, maybe we could have something where you swap your wizard school specialization for a divine domain, have to worship the god and stay within a step of his/her alignment, get a celestial/infernal/etc. familiar, and generally have a nifty roleplay for an arcanist that chooses faith as part of the expression for his magic...
There I go, rabbit trailing again. I apologize.
You know to know the truth why people really shut down your complaints? It's because what you want already exists, and in reality you're just lamenting how exactly it's done. I also don't feal fast healing 1 requiring evil components is a valid response for divine casters still being the main healer option with others getting bits and pieces.
of it being "too complex" for arcane casterLink please. Because that sound's utterly ridiculous.
And... That 'already exists' part may be true. I sometimes look at the design choices and don't like what I see. Other times I think they're awesome. So you can't please everybody all the time. I get annoyed looking at rogue talents ALL the time...
At this point Senko, may I suggest that you participate in homebrewing the kind of thing you'd like to see, or hunting it down in 3rd party materials, or talking with your group to see if you can have access to the options you really want on a character rather than this particular 'in a vacuum' discussion.
Nice talking to you both.
...wait a minute. Why isn't there something like Eclectic Learning out of 3.5...
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@Derklord I'd have to hunt down the forum where I found it as it wasn't this one, I think giant in the playground but there were multiple posts justifying no healing spells as healing being too complex for arcane casters somewhere and I no longer remember where just the argument sorry.
@ Te'Shen thanks for covering it all for me very much appreciated. To address a few key things ...
First I personally hate relying on outside sources for powers and the divine classes all do that clerics - gods/concepts, oracles - mysterious outsiders, withches -mysterious outsiders, shamans - spirits of the land which is why I don't like playing them.
Secondly I have actually recently found the Magaambyan initiate arhcetype for arcanists so I'll be trying to get GM's to let take that which gives access to certain druid spells including the important healing ones cure x wounds, cure far wounds, heal, cure disease, regenerate. About the only thing they don't get to pick is the raise dead/resurection spells of the ones I'm after. Arcanist only so more reason for me not to play a wizard or sorcerer but this is why I feel wizards should get healing spells.
I am just glad that the Unicorn bloodline gets healing spells. Too bad other bloodlines didn't get more healing love....well other then the Phoenix bloodline's ability to turn fire spells into half power healing.
Divine classes get the good healing. Wizards and sorcerers get a backdoor.
Some divine casters get the good healing. Not all. Lumping all divine and all arcane casters together is a common thing, but it's nonsensical. Most notably, a Witch has better access to both cure spells and condition removal spells than a Druid.
In combat, however, it's slow and won't do what you need if you're in a position to need that healing in combat.
Yeah, but cure spells are terrible at infight healing, so much that situations where using them is the most prudent course of actions are exceedingly rare. Usually, a number of other spells (debuffs like Slow, battlefield control spells like walls and clouds, or buffs like Invisibility or Blur) can do the same job (namely preventing allys or oneself from dropping) even better.
The wizard does have a lot of effective spells. You're not wrong. And yet you're glossing over the fact that the bulk of the divine classes just get their spells.
You still get two spells per level, and you don't actually need that many different spells. Unless you for some reason know exactly what to expect, you have to prepare general-purpose-spells anyway, which is non-coincidentally the area where the Wizard spell list shines brightest.
Let's not resort to the obvious swears cleverly masked.
I didn't mask anything, this board has a censor function.
I'm pretty sure some hated new ideas. Some loved them. Some were indifferent... because that's pretty standard.
Exactly. And yet, Senko acts as if the entire playerbase was a hivemind with a single opinion. Which is bull s#@@ (per Wikipedia "offered by a speaker who does not care whether what is said is true because the speaker is more concerned with giving the hearer some impression"). I get that it's supposed to be a hyperbole, but in reality it ends up being an over-generalization, and tries to create some fake "poor me has to fight against the world" underdog story.
I'm not "being salty", I'm calling Senko out for being dishonest. The ideas don't get shot down because people are narrow-minded or mentally inflexible, they get opposed because Senko's premise that only divine classes get healing is faulty. In addition to Infernal Healing (which is on all arcane spell list sans the Bard/Skald one), Bard, Alchemist/Investigator, Witch, Occultist, and Spiritualist have access to all four normal cure spells, Bard and Occultist also have access to the first two mass cure spells, and Witch has access to all mass cure spells. The Unicorn Bloodline also grants access to cure spells to Sorcs and Blood Arcanists. And that's not even mentioning a Skald with Greater Skald's Vigor, a Sorcerer/Blood Arcanist with the Phoenix Bloodline, an Arcane Healer Bard/Priest of the Fallen Spiritualist/Hex Channeler Witch, or anyone with the Healer's Hands feats.
I mean, the Unicorn Bloodline gave Sorcs and Blood Arcanists access to cure spells, yet I've never seen any outcry about it. That shows that people don't oppose to arcane casters getting healing, they oppose to "I want the Wizard, the strongest class in the game, to also have (more) healing, because I don't like the flavor of the dozen alternative options".
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Divine classes get the good healing. Wizards and sorcerers get a backdoor.Some divine casters get the good healing. Not all. Lumping all divine and all arcane casters together is a common thing, but it's nonsensical. Most notably, a Witch has better access to both cure spells and condition removal spells than a Druid.
In combat, however, it's slow and won't do what you need if you're in a position to need that healing in combat.Yeah, but cure spells are terrible at infight healing, so much that situations where using them is the most prudent course of actions are exceedingly rare. Usually, a number of other spells (debuffs like Slow, battlefield control spells like walls and clouds, or buffs like Invisibility or Blur) can do the same job (namely preventing allys or oneself from dropping) even better.
The wizard does have a lot of effective spells. You're not wrong. And yet you're glossing over the fact that the bulk of the divine classes just get their spells.You still get two spells per level, and you don't actually need that many different spells. Unless you for some reason know exactly what to expect, you have to prepare general-purpose-spells anyway, which is non-coincidentally the area where the Wizard spell list shines brightest.
Let's not resort to the obvious swears cleverly masked.I didn't mask anything, this board has a censor function.
I'm pretty sure some hated new ideas. Some loved them. Some were indifferent... because that's pretty standard.Exactly. And yet, Senko acts as if the entire playerbase was a hivemind with a single opinion. Which is bull s*~& (per Wikipedia "offered by a speaker who does not care whether what is said is true because the speaker is more concerned with giving the hearer some impression"). I get that it's supposed to be a hyperbole, but in reality it ends up being an...
My premise was actually based on several hours of searching for getting healing spells for an arcane caster and seeing the same opposition on multiple forums.
No, you're not missing anything. Wizards have never had healing abilities in this edition.*
Lacking any more concrete designer reason for this, here's a quote from the DMG (page 283), under the "Creating a Spell" heading:
[...] Wizards and sorcerers don't typically have access to healing spells, for example, and adding a healing spell to the wizard class list would step on the cleric's turf.
So, if you want to use healing spells, go for any of the classes with those in their spell list: Bard, Druid, Ranger, Paladin, Cleric, or Artificer. If you want to play a spellcaster that can also heal, there are a number of options available to you, you could multiclass into the above until you get some healing spells (though that would make you "MAD" - Multiple Ability Dependent), you could play a Divine Soul Sorcerer, or you could play a Celestial Warlock.
I only have a metagame one. Wizards already do so much. Healing spells would decrease their reliance on other characters even more.
Alternatively, the Gods jealously protect the powers of life. It is one of the few things that they do not cede to purely human understanding. To have control over life, the Gods demand special loyalty.
Well, in d20 it's one of the many D&D legacies that made it a poor universal basis for industry standardization.
But in D&D it's primarily a niche protection and flavor thing. Wizards are a power unto themselves but the type of power they use is ill suited to healing because it's easier to destroy than create. There was an article in Dragon that got into things wizards could do that weren't exactly healing but could be used to get some life saving effects.
Rolemaster has a similar divide but essence (wizard) magic is primarily elemental in nature while channeling (cleric magic) is primarily related to nature and life. Of course in Rolemaster a wizard (Well mage or wizard really) CAN learn channeling spells, they're just much more expensive.
In Palladium and at least one version of Arduin the priest and wizard use the same spell list but healing is a class feature instead of a spell.
Other, more generic, systems like GURPS and Basic Roleplaying tend to move towards healing being available to any spell user.
Which I suppose does give one more reason D&D does it the way it does: it's simpler that way. At its heart, OD&D is a simple little game.
Well, basically, though healing spells are spells, healing is not meant to be the the power Sorcerer or Wizard have.
What you are trying to do is giving powers which does not meant to belong to the role of a certain class. If you do that, there is no reason to give healing abilities to, say, Barbarian, either.
Yet, a wizard can have various ways to cast healing spells without making up original spells.
Arcane Disciple (Healing) enables him to learn and cast spells from Healing Domain, though limited numbers per day.
Limited Wish can copy any spells of 5th or lower level unless that is of his prohibited school. Thus, a wizard can copy spells such as Cure Critical Wounds, Panacea, Raise Dead, Restoration, Revivify and such.
And of course, there are infinite possibility for multi-classing.
DnD 3.Xe is not a pure single class (single role for a character) game. Yet, if a character want to have abilities of other classes, some drawbacks are meant to be applied, such as lower-casting power due to multi-classing or using up feats for it.
or your attacking me over it because of my post wording when we've already been asked to DROP this.
@Derklord I'd have to hunt down the forum where I found it as it wasn't this one, I think giant in the playground but there were multiple posts justifying no healing spells as healing being too complex for arcane casters somewhere and I no longer remember where just the argument sorry.
Ultimately, those are all just excuses to explain the game balance. Wizard gets more offensive spells. Cleric gets more healing spells. Both get pretty good buff spells.
Druid is somewhere in the middle of Cleric and Wizard design. A little offense. A little healing. Less buffing, except for animal based buffing.
I lost what any of that has to do with a Sorcerer wanting to cast Produce Flame. Which is good for its range and little else. Its action economy and damage per level isn't amazing.
I lost what any of that has to do with a Sorcerer wanting to cast Produce Flame. Which is good for its range and little else. Its action economy and damage per level isn't amazing.
Produce Flame (and its big brother Pale Flame) become good when you are able to tack on interesting effects to them from class abilities, especially the kind you get from Sorcerer Bloodlines. Using a second level spell slot to cast Produce Flame that simultaneously silences, entangles, catches on fire, and attempts to knock down the target on a failed save (which gets harder if they are on fire), all while doing bludgeoning damage... is a very, very fun experience.